Interesting difference: muslimeen & mumineen
-
peace,
regardless of what the word "islam" means, what Idolfree1 said is true. If this truth contradicts the quran, then so be it.Haha
Don't you realize what you just said?
I tell you what it means
it means you believed Idolfree and didn't believe God, hmmm, I have a surprise for you
This constitutes a clear cut case of shirk
Good luck with that
Cheers
-
PEace Bro Ahmed
thanks for the short arabic lesson D i understand now
-
Haha
Don't you realize what you just said?
I tell you what it means
it means you believed Idolfree and didn't believe God, hmmm, I have a surprise for you
This constitutes a clear cut case of shirk
Good luck with that
Cheers
No, I didn't "didn't believe God." The truth is from god. So as long as I am following the truth, I am following God.
Now, I can prove to you that what Idolfree1 said is true. In fact I'm sure that you know it's true too, but you just don't think that it is a weird enough or big enough message to be included in the quran.
You already know that when you are angry, you end up doing things that you later regret. I remember being angry about something and I was rude to my parents. My anger PUSHED me to do something I knew was wrong.
I would never do something I didn't want if I had full freedom. You wouldn't either. You would never steal unless maybe there was a gun pointed to your head.
When we are at peace (which means we are not being influenced by our emotions), we do exactly what we want.
So now that is established.
But just because we will do exactly what we want to do, it doesn't mean that what we want to do is always right.
A person may be at peace and think that stealing will benefit him, or will benefit others. There are people who think that killing themselves will take them to paradise.
So even though we may have freedom to choose, we may not always choose the right thing. That is why we must always strive to know the truth. If our choices are based on truth and righteousness, then we'll always do good.I don't see how this simple truth (which even my 10 year old brother would understand) contradicts the quran.
Please prove the above wrong and I'll agree with you that this is against God and I will change my understanding.
peace -
PEace Bro Ahmed
thanks for the short arabic lesson D i understand now
No worries sister
there is no reason for me to deceive you or deceive others when it comes to Arabic
forgot to tell you also that the arabic word Mussalam which was used in the Quran and have the same root Sin Lam Mim, menas delivered, as you can see it has nothing to do with peace (btw the ladder on arabic is a three letters word and the letters are Sin Lam Mim)
Take care sister
-
No, I didn't "didn't believe God." The truth is from god. So as long as I am following the truth, I am following God.
Now, I can prove to you that what Idolfree1 said is true. In fact I'm sure that you know it's true too, but you just don't think that it is a weird enough or big enough message to be included in the quran.
You already know that when you are angry, you end up doing things that you later regret. I remember being angry about something and I was rude to my parents. My anger PUSHED me to do something I knew was wrong.
I would never do something I didn't want if I had full freedom. You wouldn't either. You would never steal unless maybe there was a gun pointed to your head.
When we are at peace (which means we are not being influenced by our emotions), we do exactly what we want.
So now that is established.
But just because we will do exactly what we want to do, it doesn't mean that what we want to do is always right.
A person may be at peace and think that stealing will benefit him, or will benefit others. There are people who think that killing themselves will take them to paradise.
So even though we may have freedom to choose, we may not always choose the right thing. That is why we must always strive to know the truth. If our choices are based on truth and righteousness, then we'll always do good.I don't see how this simple truth (which even my 10 year old brother would understand) contradicts the quran.
Please prove the above wrong and I'll agree with you that this is against God and I will change my understanding.
peacelook bro
donlt try to dodge the argument, you know what Idolfrre promotes, he promites that the word Islam means peacefulness, now Allah told us something else in the Quran
i.e. you believe him and don't believe Allah
i.e. a clear cut case of shirk
do you agree now?
cheers
-
peace Ahmed,
I didn't dodge any arguments. I showed you that what I said was true, which was that "regardless of what the quran says, what idolfree said is true." My point was that even if Idolfree1 is wrong about what the word islam means, I still agree with the rest of what he said. -
Peace all,
In order to be fair and give an objective view about Ahmed, I would like to publicly announce that he has re-activated my membership in his forum, which shows strength of character !
I also agree with his definition of the word islam as meaning submission/surrender as used in al-qur'aan. One of the reasons given by those who disagree with this meaning is that the meaning "submission/surrender" alone does not tell us to whom the submission is, in the verse itself. This reason is not a valid reason to translate islam as something else like "peacefulness" because when Allah says "ya ayyuhallazeena amanoo", He does not always specify "amanoo/believe" in what; what they believe in is determined by the general context of al-qur'aan and in the same way who to submit/surrender to is also easily determined by the context of al-qur'aan. People can be peaceful without submitting to Allah, but it does not mean they are "muslims" if they are not submitting to Him.
Just to make it clear, I am not agreeing with Ahmed on the meaning issue just because he reactivated my membership in his forum !
-
Peace all,
In order to be fair and give an objective view about Ahmed, I would like to publicly announce that he has re-activated my membership in his forum, which shows strength of character !
I also agree with his definition of the word islam as meaning submission/surrender as used in al-qur'aan. One of the reasons given by those who disagree with this meaning is that the meaning "submission/surrender" alone does not tell us to whom the submission is, in the verse itself. This reason is not a valid reason to translate islam as something else like "peacefulness" because when Allah says "ya ayyuhallazeena amanoo", He does not always specify "amanoo/believe" in what; what they believe in is determined by the general context of al-qur'aan and in the same way who to submit/surrender to is also easily determined by the context of al-qur'aan. People can be peaceful without submitting to Allah, but it does not mean they are "muslims" if they are not submitting to Him.
Just to make it clear, I am not agreeing with Ahmed on the meaning issue just because he reactivated my membership in his forum !
Hello
The motive for the deactivation was simply I felt you are only attacking me and not attacking my thoughts
You are welcome to attack my thoughts as much as you want but i just can't allow attacking me personally in here while you show respect in another place, it's a conflict
Regarding the subject in hand, I will actually prepare a man to man comment to you and post it in here regarding 4910 (I think) and inshalllah will prove my point, I just need some time to create it as my wife had a day surgery and I'm taking care of the kids for the last three days and for the next 4 days, during the last 3 days I created this game, enjoy
FFI KickArse
Even the boys and girls on FFI loved it
Salam
-
Salam brother Tanveer1
Let?s now talk man to man, firstly you have to know that I don?t really care if the order is believe then submit or submit then believe, what I will care about though what the context of the sentences used as well the common sense, the common sense must be in the favour of believe then submit because you can?t submit to something that you don?t believe in
The Quran also is in the favour of believe then submit, I provided numerous verses that confirm this fact which the common sense is in favour and yet you came up with some rebuttals that honestly man, I found it nothing but a desperate move to prove the unprovable, if you have provided anything that have merit I would have accepted it on the fly, I have no shame doing that, but you just kept bragging about the Lamma thingy trying hard to defame my language expertise, while the fact of the matter WHEN is proven to be one of the many uses of Lamma, I never use it to deny an action, nor its use sounds ok to me however of the God has used it ONCE as such then I have to accept that and conclude that the matter of conflict was due to my ignorance, but I insist that the Arabd never use Lamma to deny an action, they always use it to indicate an action that is based on a time line, i.e. WHEN, even in the common street language it is used as such to mean WHEN, also I looked at all the verses you posted as evidences that Lamma means to deny, I found only one case that I might accept it as such, all the other you posted Lamma in them has to mean WHEN, I can discuss that with you later.
For me to tackle this matter for another time I decided to analyse 4914 in great details, but let me tell you first
If I have told you that you should do something, then I came back to you and you told me that you it in such way, I may tell you that sure you did but you should have done another way, that is exactly what 4914 is telling us as I will walk you through it
Now let me clear something else, the belief is nothing but a deceleration that you are, like the Shahada which I believe is required once in the life time when declaring the belief in Allah, that?s about it really, nothing more to define belief other than declaring the belief in what is required to believe in, that is what the Arabs told Mohammad that they believed, they thought that?s about it, so the lesson that will be given to them was simply telling them that sorry that is not the end of it, or I should say, this is how it should happen
Another thing to clear, submission on the other hand is not a deceleration rather an action of mostly obeying and again this is what 4914 is telling us, let me start my walkthrough
14 The dwellers of the desert say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(14)
-> ? ?, ? The dwellers of the desert say We believe.?, now there is nothing in the verse that suggest they were liars rather, they thought that they have done what is required
-> ? ?, ? Say You do not believe but say, We submit;?, the denial here using the deny word Lam, is not really denying their belief rather denying that it is the end of it or sort of you did it but here is how it should be done, it is a lesson, nothing more
-> I will use the translation that I see proper for this bit ? ?, ? and WHEN faith enters into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger,?, see, how the submission came second ? and if you obey Allah and His Messenger,?, you can?t deny that obeying Allah and His messenger constitute submission , i.e. Islam, but can you see that the submission was stated as Wa In, i.e. not every believer will achieve obeying Allah and His prophet, the translation for Wa In is ?And If?, this is exactly what happened to Ibrahim, when he and his son believed first then asked the God Whom they believed in to make them submitters to Him, and their wish was granted later with one hell of a tough test as you know and both submitted and passed the test, another note in here is why Allah uses Lamma to deny while he just used Lam (the common word for denying) just before it, ? ?, ?Qul Lam Tumino?
-> Then 4914 ended the lesson with the reward for those who believe then submit ? ?, ? He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.?
There is no doubt that Lamma in 4914 means WHEN, if you look at it even using the common sense you will see that it makes no sense because the deny of the belief was just stated using the word Lam as I sated earlier
Salam
-
Salam brother Ahmed,
WHEN is proven to be one of the many uses of Lamma, I never use it to deny an action, nor its use sounds ok to me however of the God has used it ONCE as such then I have to accept that and conclude that the matter of conflict was due to my ignorance,
Thank you for admitting this, because that shows strength of your character and willingness to admit a mistake and you have my respect for that. I wouldn't have made the comments in my earlier posts if you had admitted that earlier instead of insisting that "lamma" can only mean "when". No one is perfect and even a fluent person can make a mistake rarely and one should not hesitate to admit it, because that maintains one's credibility and makes others respect one even more.
I apologize for any perceived personal attacks I made in my earlier posts. My intention was not to make personal attacks but to attack your thoughts for not knowing other meanings of "lamma" and then your misunderstanding of what I had written. You also made some personal attacks on me which upset me also and caused me to attack you even more which both of us should not have done, but we are humans after all and slip up sometimes, and I hope both of us can be more cordial in the future.
Let?s now talk man to man, firstly you have to know that I don?t really care if the order is believe then submit or submit then believe, what I will care about though what the context of the sentences used as well the common sense, the common sense must be in the favour of believe then submit because you can?t submit to something that you don?t believe in
The Quran also is in the favour of believe then submit, I provided numerous verses that confirm this fact which the common sense is in favour and yet you came up with some rebuttals that honestly man, I found it nothing but a desperate move to prove the unprovable, if you have provided anything that have merit I would have accepted it on the fly, I have no shame doing that,
I think we have some misunderstanding about the definitions of what you mean by believer/mumin and what I mean by believer. What I mean by believer or mumin is someone who fulfills ALL the traits of a believer in the Qur'aan which I stated in an earlier post.
This is what a believer/mumin is according to the Qur'aan
According to 4915, 82-4, 22-5, 2853-54, 2177, 4103, 2183, mumins (faithful, truthful, righteous, believers) have the following traits
a. They have faith and trust in The God
b. They have faith in the messengers
c. They have faith in the angels
d. They have faith in all The God's revelations
e. They have faith in the unseen
f. They have faith in the Last Day and certainty regarding the hereafter
g. They attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever
h. They counter evil works with good works
i. They strive with their lives and money in the way of The God
j. Their hearts tremble when The God is mentioned
k. Their faith is strengthened by hearing The God's revelations
l. They uphold the timed/regular salaat
m. They give to charity
n. They contribute to betterment/zakaat.
o. They fast for periods of time to establish patience
p. They free the slaves
q. They keep their word whenever they make a promise
r. They steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and warAccording to this definition of the Qur'aan, one can be a mumin/believer only if one has ALL the above traits. Any element missing from the above traits and one is not mumin/believer.
Thus when I talk about belief, I mean belief in all the above plus submitting to all the above stated commands, so a believer would be a submitter also which is confirmed by 2277-78, where believers are directly named muslimeen/submitters. According to this definition we cannot say that one can be a mumin but not a muslim. All mumins will also be muslims.
2277 O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'those who have submitted'/al-muslimeen from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So honor the connection and contribute towards betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.I think what you mean by belief is that even if someone just declares belief in Allah one is a mumin, without really believing from the heart and without believing in other things also. That, however, is not the Qur'aanic definition but your personal definition. A person who just believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds without believing in other things cannot be a mumin but can be a muslim/submitter. Consider the following
2853 And if it is recited to them, they Say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had submitted BEFORE it."
2854 To these We grant twice the reward for that they have been patient. And they counter evil with good, and from Our provisions to them, they give.According to 2853, one can be a submitter even before believing in the Qur'aan, and according to 2854, believer will have twice the reward, so believer is at a higher level than submitter, and one can be a submitter/muslim before being a believer/mumin (according to the Qur'aanic definition of believers).
Now let us consider the following
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
These verses are clearly telling us that whoever believes in The God and the Last Day and does good work whether one is Jewish or Sabien or Nazarene, will have nothing to fear, and it logically follows that if one dies in that state one will be rewarded. According to 2132 people are advised to die as muslims. Putting 262, 569, 2132 together, it follows that
Muslim/submitter = whoever believes in The God and the Last Day and does good works.
Notice that I am saying that a muslim will "believe" in Allah and the Last Day also, but that does not make that muslim a mumin. Remember that to be a mumin one is required to have ALL the traits mentioned above earlier, and believing only in God and the Last Day DOES NOT MAKE ONE A MUMIN, but one can still be a muslim.
Thus to be a muslim one also needs some belief (in Allah and the Last Day), but not complete belief in all things I mentioned earlier.
Thus all mumineen are muslimeen (confirmed by 2277-7 but all muslimeen may not be mumineen.
Now let me clear something else, the belief is nothing but a deceleration that you are, like the Shahada which I believe is required once in the life time when declaring the belief in Allah, that?s about it really, nothing more to define belief other than declaring the belief in what is required to believe in, that is what the Arabs told Mohammad that they believed, they thought that?s about it, so the lesson that will be given to them was simply telling them that sorry that is not the end of it, or I should say, this is how it should happen
I disagree with your definition of belief underlined above, as I explained earlier. According to the verses I referenced earlier (4915, 82-4, 22-5, 2853-54, 2177, 4103, 2183), a believer can be a believer/mumin only when has all the traits mentioned in these verses, and not just belief in Allah alone. That is where we differ which is causing the whole disagreement.
One cannot say that the belief being talked about in 4914 is just belief in Allah alone. This is confirmed in 4915, the verse immediately following 4914 where Allah defines believers, thereby defining what He meant by belief in 4914.
4914 The Arabs said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should say 'We have submitted', and belief has not yet entered into your hearts." And if you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
4915 Believers are those who believe in God and His messenger, then they became without doubt, and they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.In 4914, the wordings "belief has not entered your hearts" shows that belief is NOT JUST DECLARATION of belief, as you assert, but true belief is when it has entered the hearts, and not just the tongue by declaration. It actually confirms that the Arabs were declaring the belief with their tongues when they said "we believe", but Allah did not accept that as belief by saying "you have not believed". Allah is telling them that they should instead say "we have submitted", because the belief has not yet entered their hearts, and it is only on their tongues. This proves that belief is not just declaration.
Thus Allah is telling the Arabs not to say that they believe because they do not yet believe in all the things mentioned in 4915, but they are just declaring their belief without actually believing from their hearts. For example one might enlist in the army and when the commander issues an order to fight the enemy, one can say "yes sir" and start fighting without yet really believing deep down in the heart in the cause for which one is fighting. Thus one would be a submitter to the commander without being a believer, just because one has to. This is how submission can come before belief, which is confirmed by 2853 also
2853 And if it is recited to them, they Say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had submitted BEFORE it."
14 The dwellers of the desert say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(14)
-> ? ?, ? The dwellers of the desert say We believe.?, now there is nothing in the verse that suggest they were liars rather, they thought that they have done what is required
-> ? ?, ? Say You do not believe but say, We submit;?, the denial here using the deny word Lam, is not really denying their belief rather denying that it is the end of it or sort of you did it but here is how it should be done, it is a lesson, nothing more
-> I will use the translation that I see proper for this bit ? ?, ? and WHEN faith enters into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger,?, see, how the submission came second ? and if you obey Allah and His Messenger,?, you can?t deny that obeying Allah and His messenger constitute submission , i.e. Islam, but can you see that the submission was stated as Wa In, i.e. not every believer will achieve obeying Allah and His prophet, the translation for Wa In is ?And If?, this is exactly what happened to Ibrahim, when he and his son believed first then asked the God Whom they believed in to make them submitters to Him, and their wish was granted later with one hell of a tough test as you know and both submitted and passed the test, another note in here is why Allah uses Lamma to deny while he just used Lam (the common word for denying) just before it, ? ?, ?Qul Lam Tumino?
-> Then 4914 ended the lesson with the reward for those who believe then submit ? ?, ? He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.?
There is no doubt that Lamma in 4914 means WHEN, if you look at it even using the common sense you will see that it makes no sense because the deny of the belief was just stated using the word Lam as I sated earlier
The translation of "lamma" as "not yet" would make perfect sense in 4914. Even if you forget the "lamma" part, and consider only the first part of the verse
4914 The Arabs said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should say 'We have submitted'..........
it shows that "submission" comes before "belief", because saying "we believe" (which is a declaration) is not real belief, but is a submission.
The subsequent wording " " clearly shows that while they are saying "we believe" with their tongues, the belief has not entered their hearts. Thus this part is referring to an event that has not yet happened, and wherever "lamma" is used when an event has not happened, it only means "not yet" in the Qur'aan.
Also, if you translate "lamma" as "when" in 4914, it logically does not make sense. Lets try it with "when" and you will see
4914 The Arabs said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should say 'We have submitted', and when belief enters into your hearts." And if you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Anyone can see that the blue part and the red part becomes disconnected when "lamma" is translated as "when", and we do not know why they have not believed, even when they say "we believe".
With "lamma" meaning "not yet", the blue part and the red part are not disconnected and make sense and then the red part gives the reason for why they have not believed, even when they say "we believe", because "belief has not yet entered into their hearts".
4914 The Arabs said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should say 'We have submitted', and belief has not yet entered into your hearts." And if you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Either way with "lamma" meaning "not yet" or "when", the verse still shows that submission comes before belief, as I showed above.
The "and if" part is applicable to both muslims and mumins, because both of them obey God and His messenger.
-
Salam tanveer
atctually the red part and blue part are not connected at all, why you want to make them connected?
anyway, how about you admit your mistake that you said Lamma has three uses but we found that it has six?
regarding the issue or Mumin and Muslim, I have actually asked a 69 years old arab man and he totally agreed with me, so I say you stick with your nderstanding because I'm going to stiuck with mine, I can reply to each word on your comment above but I really have no time to easte regarding this matter
Finally i had a chat with a Muslim from Pakistan area and he also agreed with me and informed me that this flawed understanding that islam is before belief has originated form that area (pakistan, afganistan etc) and obvioulsy all there lacke Arabic
Salam
-
peace AB, all,
regarding the issue or Mumin and Muslim, I have actually asked a 69 years old arab man and he totally agreed with me, so I say you stick with your nderstanding because I'm going to stiuck with mine, I can reply to each word on your comment above but I really have no time to easte regarding this matter
Finally i had a chat with a Muslim from Pakistan area and he also agreed with me and informed me that this flawed understanding that islam is before belief has originated form that area (pakistan, afganistan etc) and obvioulsy all there lacke Arabic
Using such sources is not what I would call solid evidence.
If we assume muslim is higher than mumin for a second, that means that The Quran significantly addresses the mumineen (the lower) many many more times than the supposedly higher muslimeen, and secondly, never (or very rarely?) are the muslimeen ever given a direct command in The Quran, compared to the supposed lower mumineen who are given many direct commands. This alone, should make one seriously question this theory.
-
peace AB, all,
Salam
Using such sources is not what I would call solid evidence.
what non sense is this?, did I say it is evidences?, or it's you that who said that?
i only provide Quran evidences btw
If we assume muslim is higher than mumin for a second,
No assumption, I'm telling you it is higher forever not for a second
that means that The Quran significantly addresses the mumineen (the lower) many many more times than the supposedly higher muslimeen,
That's right, because not many will be able to achieve Islam status, why don't you reply to the verses I posted, or do you agree with Tanveer replies?
how about Ibrahim and his son asking Allah to make them Muslimin after they belived, did you see that verse?
and secondly, never (or very rarely?) are the muslimeen ever given a direct command in The Quran, compared to the supposed lower mumineen who are given many direct commands. This alone, should make one seriously question this theory.
a sily argument really
well the majority will be Mumins and the Minority will be Muslims
no muslim is not a Mumin
we'll see what you have to say regarding Ibrahim
Salam
Edit
PS see brothers and sisters how they shot themselves in the foot, well according to their flawed logic all the Quran messages are addressed to the Muminoon, i.e. accrording to them the Muslims missed out on all these messages, they say not every Mumin is a Muslim, right?
now under my understanding no one missed out, because i say every Muslim is a Mumin, i.e. all these messages for the Muminoon has to be also addressed to the Muslimoon because all Muslims are Muminoon
I really miss Danish on this forum
Slam dunk
-
Not sure what the above smiley means?
well, if my argument wa a bit hard, here it is in simpler manner using questions
-
How come Ibrahim as a believer in Allah asks Him to make Him a submitter?, was Ibrahim a submitter before being a believer or a believer before being a submitter?
-
If all messages of guidance and warnings are addressed to the Muminoon, what the Muslimoon should do?, I mean did they miss out?, or should they use the excuse that all these messages were not addressed to them because they are Muslimoon and not Muminoon yet?
Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my questions
PS only Quran evidences will be looked at, also I hope you walk me through your Quran evidences not just putting the verse number and leave the rest to me
-
-
Hello brothers and sisters
Let me show you another compelling Quran evidence that belief has to be before Islam, it is about Firon, lte;s see what he said when he realized that he was facing an inevitable death
And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.
(90)
-> See what Firon said, ? ?, ? he said I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.?, i.e. HE BELIEVD FIRST THEN SUBMITTED SECOND, of course he did both at same moment because he realized he is dying, however he still believed first then submitted second
Salam
-
Salam bro Ahmed,
He believed and submitted at the same time. One cannot say from the verse that he believed first and then submitted. Even then he just believed in God and not all other things which are a requirement for a believer/mumin per the Qur'aanic definition which I quoted in an earlier post, so one cannot say that the Firon was a mumin/believer. Thus he would have been a submitter first and a mumin later if he had lived and fulfilled ALL the criteria of a mumin.
If many things are separated by a "wa", it does not necessarily mean that the thing mentioned first happened first; all of them can happen at the same time.
Consider the following verses
2129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
In 2129, the order is recite, teach, purify and in 2151 the order is recite, purify, teach. This can only mean that all those things happened at same time or did Allah make a mistake here by saying teach first and then purify in 2129 and purify first and then teach in 2151 ? Think about it !
-
Peace be upon you (not Submission be upon you),
Ahmed, please ponder on why we are told to greet each other with the wish for PEACE...it is because that is what ISLAM(peacefulness/peaceful state of mind) is what it is all about.
This is not chosen, as someone stated, because we cannot answer "submit to what", no...it is because Peace is our natural state and we must get back to that state. Submission falls under the word "sujood", but we must remove the teachings of blind solars who have mislead us for so long and thier devoted worshippers who cannot let go of false teachings. The God's message confirms itself in real life practice.
-
Salam bro Ahmed,
Salam bro
He believed and submitted at the same time.
That?s right, however if every Mumin is a Muslim, why he has to say both of them? why not declaring his Iman and that should be it? why he declared his Submission after declaring his Iman?
One cannot say from the verse that he believed first and then submitted.
But we can say that he declared both at the same time, now I?m asking, why both, if Iman covers Islam?
Even then he just believed in God and not all other things which are a requirement for a believer/mumin per the Qur'aanic definition which I quoted in an earlier post,
Look, this list you created to define Iman is nothing but a desperate move from you, all what you are saying is nothing but further descriptions to the already believers, you are mostly describing the good deeds and even some rituals for the already believers, I can bring to you a list of more than 1000 good deed that a believer may do
I?m talking about the belief in the unseen and some seen, like Allah and His angels, His JD, His prophets and His books
It is not about the good deeds as you are trying hard to tell me
If you look at the verse after the verse where Firon declared his belief, we can clearly read that Allah didn?t deny his belief rather denied that his belief will NOT be accepted, that is why you can NOT say that Firon didn?t believe at the moment of death, in fact he did.
so one cannot say that the Firon was a mumin/believer.
Of course he believed and Allah replied to him not denying that he believed rather denying that his belief will be accepted, let?s have a look
What! now! and indeed you disobeyed before and you were of the mischief-makers.
(91)
-> See how Allah relied to him, ? What! now! and indeed you disobeyed before and you were of the mischief-makers.?, this clearly means that he believed and submitted, it won?t be accepted that?s all
Thus he would have been a submitter first and a mumin later if he had lived and fulfilled ALL the criteria of a mumin.
Non sense
If many things are separated by a "wa", it does not necessarily mean that the thing mentioned first happened first; all of them can happen at the same time.
Excuse me, this is a SAY by someone, and he said it in that order as Allah told us, if an order will be assumed then it has to be as the same order it was said.
Consider the following verses
2129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
In 2129, the order is recite, teach, purify and in 2151 the order is recite, purify, teach. This can only mean that all those things happened at same time or did Allah make a mistake here by saying teach first and then purify in 2129 and purify first and then teach in 2151 ? Think about it !
Irrelevant
How about you consider the following verse
What! shall We then make (that is, treat) those who submit as the guilty?
(35)
-> Allah is wondering ? What! shall We then make (that is, treat) those who submit as the guilty??, now I also wonder where the Mumineen fitting in this verse?, would that mean that Allah will never make the Muslimeen as the guilty, but He can make the Mumineen as the guilty?, of course not , the Muslimeen covers the Mumineen as I?m saying all along and hardly no one wants to listen in this place
Even the verse used by the advocate of this non sense that it is to submit first then believe second, as an evidence to their non sense exposes their ignorance big times, let?s have a look
52- (As to) those whom We gave the Book before it, they are believers in it.
53- And when it is recited to them they say We believe in it surely it is the truth from our Lord; surely we were submitters before this.
(52)
(53)-> The verses above are talking about those who were given another scripture before the Quran, like the Jews or the Christians ? (As to) those whom We gave the Book before it,? the Book is referring to a previous scripture that was given to them and the it in ?before it? is referring to the Quran, this verse is telling us that those who received other scriptures in the past BELIVED in these scriptures ? they are believers in it?, the it in in it is referring to the scriptures given to them, NOT the Quran, i.e. they were believers in the scripture sent to them before the Quran, the next verse is telling us that they were also submitters, of course being a Muslim can apply to all those believers before Islam because they believed then submitted to Allah (if they have done so), in fact the Quran describes many righteous people before Islam as being Muslims
-> When the Quran was delivered and recited to those (already BELIVERS in the previous scriptures sent to them), they quickly believed in the Quran because they already submitted to Allah in the past after they believed in the past ? And when it is recited to them they say?, the it is referring to the Quran, and them is referring to those early BELIVERS mentioned in the previous verse, and when the heard the Quran they quickly declared their belief in it ? We believe in it surely it is the truth from our Lord?, now it is totally misleading to think of those as being disbelievers before the Quran, indeed they were 100% believers as 2852 told us, they just believed in a new thing that is sent to them in addition to what the believed in the past, they have done that because they were submitters in addition to being believers ?surely we were submitters before this.?, this in before this refers to the Quran and it means before the Quran, i.e. they were true submitters to Allah as well believers before the Quran, they were not new believers as many try to tell us by wrongly understanding this verse.
Let?s look at another compelling verse that Islam is a higher status of Iman
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
(102)
-> There is no doubt that the above verse clearly tells us that Islam is higher status than Iman, the verse is telling us about the important objectives of the Quran ? Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to..?, now, if the belief is the end of it and not submission then the following objectives do not make sense ?.. to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.?, let me break up the objectives
-
to strengthen those who believe (why they need to strength their belief if they have reached the higher status of Iman?, it actually sounds more as to strengthen their belief so they achieve submission status, don?t you reckon?)
-
and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (I have to ask, how about the Guide and Glad Tidings for the believers?, did they miss out and the Quran is only to strengthen their belief?, some might say that the Quran said in another location that it is Huda Wa Bushra for the believers, however I?m talking this verse where both are mentioned, in the other locations it was only the believers mentioned)
Indeed we believe first then we submit second, this is how it should make sense to even a child as long as the child is not PROGRAMMED that this is how it is regardless, see if we submit first then believe second it should violate the freewill given to believe ?Mn Shaa Fal Yumin Wa Mn Shaa Fal Yakfur? i.e.
If you submit first then believe second, your belief is based on submission (there is no strength in submission, you just submit). But if you believe first then submit second, then your submission is based on your strength of belief.
IT MAKES 100% SENSE, those who ignore all these compelling evidences are nothing but as arrogant as the Sunni Muslims who hear the truth and refuse to accept it, let me give you one more compelling evidence
The verse below is talking about the magicians after their defeat by Moses, they declared their belief in Allah signs, but Pharaoh threaten them because THEY BELIEVED WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION, he ordered that one of their hand and the opposite leg to be cut for every one of them, now that is one tough test of submission to Allah, indeed this is exactly what they wished for which is to pass that tough submission test after their belief as we read in their replies to Pharaoh?s threats
And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the signs of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord Pour out upon us patience and cause us to die in submission.
(126)
-> See what they said to Pharaoh ?And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the signs of our Lord when they came to us!?, i.e. THEY ALREADY BELIEVERS, now are they submitters?, well, this is what they hoped for after hearing Pharaoh threats?Our Lord Pour out upon us patience and cause us to die in submission., HOW CLEAR IS THAT, THEY DIDN?T EVEN KNOW IF THEY WILL BE SUBMITTERS UNDER THE TOUGH TEST THEY INCURED SHORTLY AFTER THAT CONFRONTATION, they asked Allah to give them patience and they also asked Him to make them die Muslims, they never declared that they were Muslims, they only hoped to die Muslims after their belief? Pour out upon us patience and cause us to die in submission.?
Salam
-
