Interesting difference: muslimeen & mumineen
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Hello All
as you can see I'm ignoring that ignorant, please if you see any merit in what he says try to ask me because i will keep ignoring that low human
look again at 2781 the Arabic word is "Fa Hum", i.e. it is a future event, please ask any Arabic speaker to how this verse should be translated
Salam
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Peace all,
"in tusmiAAu illa man yu/minu bi-ayatina fahum muslimoona"
This whole part of the verse has the same tense so the "in tusmi3u illa man yuminu" happens at the same time as "fahum muslimoona". If the former is present tense then the latter is too, and if the latter is future tense then the former is too, but the "fluent" Arab will never tell you that, otherwise he won't be deceptive
Secondly, the "fluent" Arab quoted Shakir's translation and everyone can check that Shakir does not use "shall" in his translation of 2781. The "fluent" Arab added it deliberately in order to deceive.
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Peace siki,
Looks like you haven't read all the posts carefully, otherwise there would be no confusion. Let me make it very clear for you
AB is trying to prove that belief/iman comes first and then submission/islam, so one can be a submitter only after one is a believer. If that is correct then it would contradict with the following verses
2853 And if it is recited to them, they Say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had submitted BEFORE it."
This verse clearly shows that submission comes before belief. Another verse that confirms this is 4914
4914 The Nomads said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should Say 'We have surrendered', for belief has not yet entered (lamma yadkhuli) into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Again we see that surrender/submission comes before belief.
How is AB trying to prove that belief comes before submission ?
- By mistranslating 4914 as "you should Say 'We have surrendered', when belief has entered your hearts", instead of the correct "you should Say 'We have surrendered', for belief has not yet entered (lamma yadkhuli) into your hearts."
He is doing this by mistranslating "lamma" here to "when" instead of "not", and I proved from al-qur'aan that "lamma" means "not" when talking about something that has not yet happened, and can only mean "not" in 4914. Also if "lamma" is translated as "when" here, that would make "iman" before "islam", which would contradict with 2853, which clearly indicates that "islam" is before "iman".
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By deliberately giving the readers wrong interpretation of 1084, 2946, 384, and 4369. Any sane reader will clearly see that these verses are talking about belief and submission at the same time, whereas AB is wrongly inferring that these verses talk about belief first and then submission.
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By deliberately mistranslating 2781.
He quoted the translation from Shakir, and if you look up the actual translation by Shakir, you will find that the word "shall" is not there, and AB deliberately added that word in the translation to deceive others, which shows how low one can go in order to mislead. Why is he doing that ? Because he wants everyone to believe that the first part of the relevant phrase is in present tense and the second part in future tense, to justify that belief comes before submission. According to Arabic grammar, the way the relevant phrase of the verse is worded, both parts have to be the same tense, thus making belief and submission at the same time. By adding "shall" to the latter part of the verse, he is misquoting Shakir, and also violating the grammar.
With all this in mind, re read all the posts from reply #15 onwards and you will clearly see how AB is trying to deceive and mislead the general readers. He is creating contradiction with 2853 by his false translations and false interpretations, and if he is really a "fluent" Arab then these tactics would be DELIBERATE deception, and if it is not deliberate, then his logic is unbelievably faulty and his Arabic is miserable. Either way he completely loses any credibility.
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Hello all
Let?s now look at some logical arguments that should demolish the ignorance promoted by some so called Muslims, the following verses should knock their ignorance once and for all
Here is Ibrahim and his son Ismail (who are already believers in Allah) asking Him to make them Submitters
Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
(12
-> See, ? Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee?, remember that Ibrahim believed in Allah before he had any children when he had the argument with his father earlier, look again at this verse and see how they are asking Allah (Whom they believe in already) to make them submitters to Him, i.e. a submitter is a status that comes after believing and not all believers will succeed to reach it that is why they asked Allah to help them to reach it
Knock down # 1
Now we read (the already believer Ibrahim) submitted a couple of verses later
131- When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
132- And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
(131)
(132)-> See how Ibrahim submitted to Allah after he believed in Him ? When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.?
-> Now here is the funny one that exposes those ignorant who claim, you can be a Muslim while not being a believer, see how Ibrahim enjoined his family ? ?, i.e. ? , therefore die not unless you are Muslims.?,
hmmm, according to those ignorant so called Muslims, we can die without believing then, all we need to do is say, we submit to the lord of the worlds, sounds funny.
Obviously Ibrahim advice to his (already believing) family is to reach the highest level of belief which is submitting to Allah as it happened to him exactly, i.e. when you are a Muslim you are already a believer, however you can be a believer (you can see millions around you) but not a Muslim yet
Knock down # 2
That order that we should try hard to reach the upmost level of belief which is submitting to Allah was given to the ALREADY BELIEVERS, as we can see CLEARLY below
O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.
(102)
-> What else I can say, see the verse is directed at the already believers ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe?, the same said by Ibrahim to his already believing family is said to all the believers in this verse ? ?, i.e. ? and do not die unless you are Muslims.?,
i.e. there are believers who die without becoming Muslims,
i.e. Islam comes after believing
i..e. every Muslim is a believer
i.e. not every believer is a Muslim
Knock down # 3
Hmmm, three knock downs in one round, that is a knock out
The silly argument is dismissed and the case must be rested for life
Salam
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Peace all,
The "fluent" Arab, who does not know two of the meanings of "lamma", is again trying to deceive and mislead others !!
Let?s now look at some logical arguments that should demolish the ignorance promoted by some so called Muslims, the following verses should knock their ignorance once and for all
Here is Ibrahim and his son Ismail (who are already believers in Allah) asking Him to make them Submitters
Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
(12
-> See, ? Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee?, remember that Ibrahim believed in Allah before he had any children when he had the argument with his father earlier, look again at this verse and see how they are asking Allah (Whom they believe in already) to make them submitters to Him, i.e. a submitter is a status that comes after believing and not all believers will succeed to reach it that is why they asked Allah to help them to reach it
Knock down # 1
Now we read (the already believer Ibrahim) submitted a couple of verses later
131- When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
132- And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
(131)
(132)-> See how Ibrahim submitted to Allah after he believed in Him ? When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.?
-> Now here is the funny one that exposes those ignorant who claim, you can be a Muslim while not being a believer, see how Ibrahim enjoined his family ? ?, i.e. ? , therefore die not unless you are Muslims.?,
hmmm, according to those ignorant so called Muslims, we can die without believing then, all we need to do is say, we submit to the lord of the lords, sounds funny.
Obviously Ibrahin advice to his (already believing) family is to reach the highest level of belief which is submitting to Allah as it happened to him exactly, i.e. when you are a Muslim you are already a believer, however you can be a believer (you can see millions around you) but not a Muslim yet
Knock down # 2
This is what a believer is according to al-qur'aan
According to 4915, 82-4, 22-5, 2853-54, 2177, 4103, 2183, mumins (faithful, truthful, righteous, believers) have the following traits
a. They have faith and trust in The God
b. They have faith in the messengers
c. They have faith in the angels
d. They have faith in all The God's revelations
e. They have faith in the unseen
f. They have faith in the Last Day and certainty regarding the hereafter
g. They attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever
h. They counter evil works with good works
i. They strive with their lives and money in the way of The God
j. Their hearts tremble when The God is mentioned
k. Their faith is strengthened by hearing The God's revelations
l. They uphold the timed/regular salaat
m. They give to charity
n. They contribute to betterment/zakaat.
o. They fast for periods of time to establish patience
p. They free the slaves
q. They keep their word whenever they make a promise
r. They steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and warAccording to this definition of al-qur'aan, one can be a mumin only if one has ALL the above traits. Any element missing from the above traits and they are not mumins. Thus if Abraham only believed in The God, does not make him a mumin !!
Now let us consider 2853-54
2853 And if it is recited to them, they Say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had submitted BEFORE it."
2854 To these We grant twice the reward for that they have been patient. And they counter evil with good, and from Our provisions to them, they give.According to 2853, one can be a submitter even without believing in al-qur'aan, and according to 2854, believer will have twice the reward, so believer is at a higher level than submitter.
Now let us consider the following verses
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
These verses are clearly telling us that whoever believes in The God and the Last Day and does good work will have nothing to fear and if one dies in that state one will be rewarded. According to 2132 people are advised to die as muslims. Putting 262, 569, 2132 together, it follows that
Muslim = whoever believes in The God and the Last Day and does good works.
Remember that to be a mumin one is required to have all the traits mentioned above earlier, and believing only in God and the Last Day DOES NOT MAKE ONE A MUMIN.
Thus all mumineen are muslimeen (confirmed by 2277-7 but all muslimeen are not mumineen.
Now if we see the story of Abraham, he believed in The God and at that stage when he was not a mumin as he still lacked many other traits of a mumin as explained above, he was ordered to submit to The God which he did and became a muslim. Thus clearly he was a muslim at that stage but not a mumin yet. This clearly shows that one can be a muslim before one is a mumin, and if one dies in this state (believing in God and the Last Day and doing good deeds), one will be rewarded. Of course, later Abraham must have become a mumin also, and even when he was a mumin he was still also a muslim !
STRIKE #1 and #2 for AB
That order that we should try hard to reach the upmost level of belief which is submitting to Allah was given to the ALREADY BELIEVERS, as we can see CLEARLY below
O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.
(102)
-> What else I can say, see the verse is directed at the already believers ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe?, the same said by Ibrahim to his already believing family is said to all the believers in this verse ? ?, i.e. ? and do not die unless you are Muslims.?,
i.e. there are believers who die without becoming Muslims,
i.e. Islam comes after believing
i..e. every Muslim is a believer
i.e. not every believer is a Muslim
Knock down # 3
I have shown above how all mumineen are muslimeen per 2277-78, so when they die they die as muslimeen and that is what 3102 is saying. If a mumin dies as a muslim, it does not mean that muslim is a higher level which would also contradict 2854.
According to 2277-78, mumin is also a muslim, so a mumin can never die without being a muslim ! For example if an ordinary human becomes a king and he dies as a king, he also dies as a human !! This proves that 3102 does not contradict a mumin being at a higher level than a muslim as mentioned in 2853-54.
Islam cannot come after iman because that will contradict 2853 and 4914, however, iman can come after islam per 2853 and 4914.
Thus every mumin is a muslim, but every muslim is not a mumin.
STRIKE #3, AB is out
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Salaam Tanveer, all
What is The Definition of Muslim ? If One Defines a Muslim as One who accept Islam then , Everyone is a Muslim as per Quran 383 . But Not Every Muslim is a Mu'meen , however, Every Mu'meen is a Muslim. Why do you think Allah only addresses O you who are secure in Knoledge but never O you who are Muslims ? Sleep on this Bro tanveer
Wassalamu' ala manittaba?l hudaa.
almarh0m -
so if every mumin is a muslim islam comes first right? and so iman is after islam?
to attain iman, one needs to already have accepted islam (willingly or unwillingly as per 383), then once we have perfected our eman, we accomplish ihsan.
Submission. Faith. Sincerity.
Seems logical...
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Peace almarh0m,
What is The Definition of Muslim ? If One Defines a Muslim as One who accept Islam then , Everyone is a Muslim as per Quran 383 . But Not Every Muslim is a Mu'meen , however, Every Mu'meen is a Muslim.
I agree with that. AB is the one who disputes that, not me. He says that not every mumin is a muslim which goes against the qur'aanic terminology especially 2277-78
I think the basic minimum requirements for reward in the hereafter are given by
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
In my understanding, the underlined portion above are the MINIMUM requirements of islam.
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Peace ay,
so if every mumin is a muslim islam comes first right? and so iman is after islam?
to attain iman, one needs to already have accepted islam (willingly or unwillingly as per 383), then once we have perfected our eman, we accomplish ihsan.
Submission. Faith. Sincerity.
Seems logical...
Exactly !
Thank you for the understanding.
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According to 4915, 82-4, 22-5, 2853-54, 2177, 4103, 2183, mumins (faithful, truthful, righteous, believers) have the following traits
a. They have faith and trust in The God
b. They have faith in the messengers
c. They have faith in the angels
d. They have faith in all The God's revelations
e. They have faith in the unseen
f. They have faith in the Last Day and certainty regarding the hereafter
g. They attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever
h. They counter evil works with good works
i. They strive with their lives and money in the way of The God
j. Their hearts tremble when The God is mentioned
k. Their faith is strengthened by hearing The God's revelations
l. They uphold the timed/regular salaat
m. They give to charity
n. They contribute to betterment/zakaat.
o. They fast for periods of time to establish patience
p. They free the slaves
q. They keep their word whenever they make a promise
r. They steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and warAccording to this definition of al-qur'aan, one can be a mumin only if one has ALL the above traits. Any element missing from the above traits and they are not mumins. Thus if Abraham only believed in The God, does not make him a mumin !!
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
In my understanding, the underlined portion above are the MINIMUM requirements of islam.
Slam dunk
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Peace AB,
Thank you for confirming my understanding that all mumins are muslims but all muslims are not mumins. 262 and 569 talk about the minimum criteria of a muslim, and mumins can be much more than that. For those mumins there is double reward per 2854.
The above remark by AB shows that even he is convinced finally of the truth. Maybe the sun has risen from the west ? D
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Hello all
My slam dunk commet above means that the ignroant poster contradicted himself
compare what he said in red in both comments, LOL
Slam dunk again
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Peace all,
Now it is obvious that AB has lost his mind !! or maybe he needs glasses !!
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Peace all,
He has actually confirmed that he is blind
3053 Nor can you enlighten the blind from their straying; but you can only make those who believe in Our revelations listen, for they have submitted.
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Hello all
ok let me make it easy, by just looking at the first item in the first quite
you need faith and trust in God to be a Mumin
hmmm, ok we understand the faith that is needed
however the trust is exactly the meaning of SUBMISSION to Allah
do you get it?
see, if you believe THEN Tawakal Ala Allah (Trust Him, i.e. Submit to Him after you believed in Him)
how can you submit to something that you don't believe that it exist?
slam dunk
I'm tired of the slam dunks
EDIT
PS I'm going to leave that ignorant knocking his head on the wall trying hard to only attack me, such a aloser
Salam all
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Peace all,
All those states are states of submission.
First submission alone, then belief, then tawakkal.
Thus all mumins are muslims but all muslims are not mumin.
Thanks to AB for confirming my point again.
The God is amazing for providing empiric proof how the "fluent" Arab has become blind !!
Any way 2853 refutes all of AB's nonsense.
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Hello All
I decided to continue on this thread until it is locked
Here is another lie by this manipulated deceiver
See what the confused liar said above ? In my understanding, the underlined portion above are the MINIMUM requirements of islam.?
Now here is the Arabic verse and you never see the word Islam in it
(62)
(69)
He is such a clear cut liar and a manipulator, the two verses above never talked about Muslims or any status of Submission, in fact both of them are talking about the BELIEVERS, ?Al Lazina Amanu?, read it again please to see how this deceiver has no shame to mislead his brothers and sisters motivated by extreme jealousy
i.e. the verses above are talking about the BELIEVERS, but the deceiver said ? are the MINIMUM requirements of islam? where he got this lie from?, sure he made it up to suit his low desires as everyone can see
how come the above two verses will be talking about Islam if they are CLEARLY TALKING about Iman?
That low human should go and burry his pin and confused head in a toilet somewhere then he should flush it
Sorry admin, he brought it to himself and I?m going to hammer him to expose his lies to everyone
He kept attacking me and you did nothing about it and now it is time to pay, however I still used his evidences to prove that he is a clear cut liar ands a deceiver, I?m sure having liars and deceivers on this web site are not something good for it
Salam All
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Peace all,
As everyone can notice, 262 and 569 also mention jewish, nazarenes and sabiens and not only believers, and everyone knows that the system is named islam in al-qur'aan so all the portions talking about the system and all qur'aanic teachings imply islam.
Also according to 2277-78, mumins are directly called muslims so 262 also talks about muslims as it talks about mumins.
The "fluent" Arab who doesn't know 2 meanings of "lamma" and proved himself to be blind above, struck out again.
AB, keep doing it to yourself and keep it coming
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Hello all
Let me show a compelling proof that that guy is a deceiver, a liar, an ignorant and a fabricator
He is telling us below in red that Ibrahim is not a Mumin rather a Muslim
a. They have faith and trust in The God
b. They have faith in the messengers
c. They have faith in the angels
d. They have faith in all The God's revelations
e. They have faith in the unseen
f. They have faith in the Last Day and certainty regarding the hereafter
g. They attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever
h. They counter evil works with good works
i. They strive with their lives and money in the way of The God
j. Their hearts tremble when The God is mentioned
k. Their faith is strengthened by hearing The God's revelations
l. They uphold the timed/regular salaat
m. They give to charity
n. They contribute to betterment/zakaat.
o. They fast for periods of time to establish patience
p. They free the slaves
q. They keep their word whenever they make a promise
r. They steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and warAccording to this definition of al-qur'aan, one can be a mumin only if one has ALL the above traits. Any element missing from the above traits and they are not mumins. Thus if Abraham only believed in The God, does not make him a mumin !!
Now we read in anther verse that Allah asked Ibrahim ?IF HE BELIEVED? IN GENERAL NOT ONLY IN GOD and Ibrahim responded ?YES?
And when Ibrahim said My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said What! and do you not believe? He said Yes, but that my heart may be at ease. He said Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.
(260)
See, above ? What! and do you not believe? He said Yes,?, Allah never asked Ibrahim ?do you not believe in Me?? rather ?do you not believe??, I,e, Ibrahim was a believer and later on he became a Muslim along with his son Ismail as the Quran told us
Who should we believe, Allah in His Quran and His clear Arabic words
Or that liar, low, deceiver and manipulator who promotes non sense about the Quran trying hard to look smart?
Remember that he invented something called the min requirement to be a Muslim, that was funny guys
Salam