Why I Have No Free Will
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Peace be upon you,
The confusion comes from not factoring in Desiny. We have free will WITHIN our destiny. Its like you are on a boat going to Africa...Africa is your sure destination(destiny)...you have no control over that....what you do have control over is the quality of your trip, you can get there playing shuffle board and partying or you can get there shoveling coal into the engines.
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Peace Rumi,
Whilst God does not lead people astray, what I think your statement implies that if man has free will in his life, he would be able to will something contrary to God's will, not be able to do so means no free will, i.e. the individual would have the same authority on the matter of will as the supreme being on this matter, isn't this contradictory of the terms we're using, since man is not his own God. It contradicts "His Law contains measures for life and death and He has absolute power and control over all of them" 4139
Kyle put it perfectly. Our free-will is of course not without boundaries. This may seem to be a paradox of sorts but we do have limitations. God's will established this illusion of life, and set each one of us within our own little section of it. Our will comes into play with what we do within these boundaries. But also, we have the ability to transcend the illusion via the meditative state. In that state, will becomes moot - it is irrelevant. When we return from the meditative state, then we are equipped with the wisdom to implement change accordingly - free-will.
I think the key might be with what you've said in your earlier post. The role of mans soul as the essence of free will. It is an unquantifiable element, an intangible concept and idea, it's more than possible that our free will merely extends to if we want to submit to Gods will and all that entails such as believing in His guidance, Angels, the message. Ultimately I think it is the soul, not the brain that decides about submitting to God and thus free will?.
Yes. The brain is a machine, a thought processor. It only knows how to process thoughts based on past experience and knowledge. It's a tool for perceiving this world just as our legs are tools for walking on it. That's why attempts at comprehending concepts based on knowledge that we simply do not posess are exhausting and fruitless. You end up in an endless loop of questions.
The reference point is the inner compass, which is always in harmony with God's guidance because it is, in itself, divine. Reading the qur'an, you find yourself saying, "yes...of course, that makes sense" because we have built-in barometers of how to live harmoniously in peace. The same goes for any other source that contains "truth". We already have it and can tap into it at any moment. And once we recognize it, then it is up to us to implement it if the brain and body are not already in accordance with it. Thus we establish harmony and balance, and ultimately, peace.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace bro "tay",
Peace jonny,
There is absolutely zero evidence for what you just stated, jonny. Why the double standard?
JK- ???
No, psuedo-science attempts to sound scientific. That's what you're doing - not me.
JK- I guess wer going in circles here.
Who said anything about paranormal activity in the brain? I find it disturbing that you're attempting to tear down an argument that doesn't exist. You clearly have no idea what I'm talking about. First it was magic, then evangelism, and now the paranormal, none of which have anything to do with this discussion. Not to mention your usual demand for evidence without providing any of your own. Sheesh!
JK- Bro "tay" if you remember i was the one who did bring up neorological evidence as to how feelings and attractions are created in the brain and how the complex of patterns of these lead on to greater and more emotional feelings, so plz dont say i fail to bring evidence. Now i dont understand wht your trying to claim here if not something supernatural. You seem to be beleiving in sn as far as ive understood and if thts the case then one should know tht theres no evidence for such. If not then wht is it your trying to say here? Lemme requote your phrase here
...mind is not capable of thinking in the present without reference to the past. Yet a "part" of us is capable of this, only through complete silence of the mind. That's duality.
JK- I understood the "part" part as you referring to some paranormal soul. If thts not the case then wht is it? If you meant the conscience fortmed through a complex series of neural interactivities distributed between certain parts of the brain then i agree.
Jonny, you need to learn how to differentiate between which posts are dealing with science/pseudo-science and which posts are not. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Peace,
TayJK- Wht is/was pseudo scientific about my pts here? GOD Bless!
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Peace bros "idolfree" and "kyle",
I think you still didnt get it. The destination of the trip AS WELL AS THE QUALITY are all bound to happen in a certain way which is by the path the energy particles and atoms have initiated their flow and then onto the neural network which processes things as a result of action and reaction between further particles. There is no evidence of any supernatural intervention here which would be necessary if one were even a tiny bit do something what the neural network doesnt want one to do, which obviously doesnt make sense BECAUSE WE ARE/OUR CONSCIENCE IS BECAUSE OF CERTAIN ACTIVITIES BETWEEN CERTAIN NEURONS WHICH FORM IT. I hope you got it this time. GOD Bless! -
I haven't followed the whole discussion, only the last parts a bit. I only say, to understand Scientifical theories to be valid, it takes more then just reading a few articles here and there on the internet. Quantum Physics and the curent understanding of the Quantum Field only show pure Free Will.
But I always let the Quran decide on these matters, as it is the Furqan, the Criterion between Right or Wrong
To believe we have no free Will is something an Iblis would say
716 Iblis said, "Since You have willed that I go astray, I will lurk in ambush for
them in Your Straight Path.Responsibility of action can only come through having free Will
723 They said, "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. Unless You forgive
us and have Mercy on us, we will certainly be lost.Allah has send forth His Rahmah, meaning that He has created Laws that allow Free Will without Him intervening. This doesn't mean Allah is Powerless, He has only bound Himself to His own Laws so we can experience true Free Will.
We witness it routinely. For example, see (6/12 & 6/54) where He says He has made Rahma compulsory for
Himself. (4) Also, see (10/103) We have the obligation to protect the convinced. (5) This has also been
termed as Allahs Promise in (16/38, 31/9, 31/33, 35/5, 40/55 & 40/77). Also to be noted is the
declaration that He always does, and will, keep His promise (30/6, 3/193). -
Peace jonny,
Bro "tay" if you remember i was the one who did bring up neorological evidence as to how feelings and attractions are created in the brain and how the complex of patterns of these lead on to greater and more emotional feelings, so plz dont say i fail to bring evidence.
Jonny, I had to drag that evidence out of you, and all you did was a quick google on it and gave me some bogus study with inconclusive results. Then you said I reminded you of a creationist for doubting it. Come on, bro. Let's be honest here.
Now i dont understand wht your trying to claim here if not something supernatural. You seem to be beleiving in sn as far as ive understood and if thts the case then one should know tht theres no evidence for such. If not then wht is it your trying to say here?
This is your problem, jonny, and I say this with brotherly intent. Science is not God. You need to stop thinking that everything outside the realm of the scientific is somehow supernatural. Have you ever heard of philosophy?
And I have news for you...there's no evidence to explain quantum particles appearing only because we're looking. The deeper you dig into quantum theory, the more mystical and supernatural it gets. Ask Arnold how much evidence there is for quantum theory.
You need to broaden your horizons bro, especially if you're into the newer theories. Because if it's only evidence you'll follow, then you'll be left behind as science is venturing into the frontiers understood only by human imagination.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace bro "tay",
Peace jonny,
Jonny, I had to drag that evidence out of you, and all you did was a quick google on it and gave me some bogus study with inconclusive results. Then you said I reminded you of a creationist for doubting it. Come on, bro. Let's be honest here.
JK- Inconclusive results? If you know better then perhaps you should go to a neural clinic and help us all understand it better. Bro i dont like this of you going against scientific research honestly.
This is your problem, jonny, and I say this with brotherly intent. Science is not God. You need to stop thinking that everything outside the realm of the scientific is somehow supernatural. Have you ever heard of philosophy?
JK- I never said science is GOD, but the scientific method is the only way we humans have to get a certain high probability of what the the truth is. If you have another way please inform me.
And I have news for you...there's no evidence to explain quantum particles appearing only because we're looking. The deeper you dig into quantum theory, the more mystical and supernatural it gets. Ask Arnold how much evidence there is for quantum theory.
JK- This is religious jargon. Ive never heard real scientists from the scientific community ever say such about quantum mechanics. I agree we havnt understood it yet completely or very little for that matter but this doesnt mean it aint causal or supernatural. Such nonsense is often used even by pschics and is part of their latest tricks in which they simply resort to quantum mechanics instead of magic so as to make it appear more scientific. I used to do the same until i realized tht it is pure and utter nonsense.
You need to broaden your horizons bro, especially if you're into the newer theories. Because if it's only evidence you'll follow, then you'll be left behind as science is venturing into the frontiers understood only by human imagination.
Peace,
TayJK- Human imagination may lead to new discoveries, i dont deny tht but last and not least its those discoveries which make us progress. However if the imagination is based on nonsense and superstition then it only leads to chaos and destruction like weve seen with mny religions and continue to see. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "Arnold",
I haven't followed the whole discussion, only the last parts a bit. I only say, to understand Scientifical theories to be valid, it takes more then just reading a few articles here and there on the internet. Quantum Physics and the curent understanding of the Quantum Field only show pure Free Will.
JK- Brother Arnold there is absolutely no evidence that quantum mechanics is some magical non causal stuff and it wouldnt make sense either.
But I always let the Quran decide on these matters, as it is the Furqan, the Criterion between Right or Wrong
To believe we have no free Will is something an Iblis would say
716 Iblis said, "Since You have willed that I go astray, I will lurk in ambush for
them in Your Straight Path.?Responsibility of action can only come through having free Will
723 They said, "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. Unless You forgive
us and have Mercy on us, we will certainly be lost.?Allah has send forth His Rahmah, meaning that He has created Laws that allow Free Will without Him intervening. This doesn't mean Allah is Powerless, He has only bound Himself to His own Laws so we can experience true Free Will.
We witness it routinely. For example, see (6/12 & 6/54) where He says ?He has made Rahma compulsory for
Himself. (4) Also, see (10/103) ?We have the obligation to protect the convinced. (5) This has also been
termed as ?Allahs Promise? in (16/38, 31/9, 31/33, 35/5, 40/55 & 40/77). Also to be noted is the
declaration that He always does, and will, keep His promise (30/6, 3/193).JK- As for these verses yes they are all correct and are PART OF THE CAUSAL CHAIN. They are there because they had to be there. Causality is marvellously defined in the following to verses of the Quran
Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles. When something good happens to them, they say, "This is from GOD," and when something bad afflicts them, they blame you. Say, "Everything comes from GOD." Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?
Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people,* and GOD suffices as witness.
At first sight it appears like a contradiciton but if what we call as "consciousness" and "free will" are illusions then it makes perfect sense. Things are all going the way GOD intended them to and so is our consciousness. We only have the illusion of control while there is no such thing as free will. All of neuroscience has consitently shown this to be the case. You can write to any neuro research center you want. Theres no magic going on in the brain. Its all causal and people whos neurons have been stimulated by other external people in a certain way actually made the tested person not only move his arm but actually made him think it was his free will and intention to do so. There are lots of videos of "derren brown" who in his videos shows how he makes people think they act on their free will only later informing them tht it was he who induced the suggestions. In order for freewill to exist the neural network has to work differently as it would according to where and how certain particles are moving at any given instant and by that i mean all natural particles which maybe effecting the neurons in the universe. Even if you say tht quantum particles can influence the neural activity, which has not yet been prove, it still would be causal since the quantum fluctuations would go in the direction they started of each from its own point of infinity. There is no magic diverting them somwehere else which is perhaps one of the ridiculous thoughts in the minds of many pseudoscientists. GOD Bless! -
Quantum Physics has loads of evidence, I recommend you to BUY some books on it, especially Ervin Lazslo's summaries.
As for verses 478-9, they clearly refer to that God creates all possibilities but that we human decide which possibility to take. Free Will is a complicated matter, and science can only be understood when everything is taken as a whole, not just one branch. Hopefully you will understand in the future...Peace
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Peace bro "Arnold",
Quantum Physics has loads of evidence, I recommend you to BUY some books on it, especially Ervin Lazslo's summaries.
As for verses 478-9, they clearly refer to that God creates all possibilities but that we human decide which possibility to take. Free Will is a complicated matter, and science can only be understood when everything is taken as a whole, not just one branch. Hopefully you will understand in the future...Peace
JK- Ok bro Arnold lemme put it in a simple way. If we really had free will then GOD cannot know what we would do since in order to know one must calculate which way certain particles will go but if one does that then it means they are bound to go thast way. GOD clearly says that He has counted the numbers of all things. He is the master of all calculations and by that He knows all what we would do or which part we would choose and we have this illusion. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
Inconclusive results? If you know better then perhaps you should go to a neural clinic and help us all understand it better. Bro i dont like this of you going against scientific research honestly.
What on earth are you talking about?
You referenced a study and you said the study proved that love was neurological (or something like that). The study did not prove conclusively what you said it concluded. It's not the fault of the researchers because they were honest. It is your fault for attempting to use their research for your conclusions.So, Im not going against scientific research. I'm going against your faulty use of it in a debate.
I never said science is GOD, but the scientific method is the only way we humans have to get a certain high probability of what the the truth is.
Yes, for all things scientific. For those things that are not scientific, science is useless.
This is religious jargon.
OK, then, please provide to me, with references, the evidence to support and explain the idea that quantum particles only appear because we are observing them.
If you can't, then you have no choice but to stand corrected.
Human imagination may lead to new discoveries, i dont deny tht but last and not least its those discoveries which make us progress. However if the imagination is based on nonsense and superstition then it only leads to chaos and destruction like weve seen with mny religions and continue to see.
May lead?? Without imagination there is no discovery my friend. Nevertheless, I agree with the rest. But how do you know it's nonsense until you explore? Up til now, anything without evidence you already consider to be nonsense. If you won't consider anything without evidence, you'll never find anything new.
Peace,
Tay -
Jonny, there is a big difference between God knowing the possibilities and also which we prefer and us not having Free Will, a very big difference. The Quran clearly states we have Free Will. This means that the results must be interpretated, if they are consistent, in a different way.
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Peace bro "tay",
Peace Jonny,
What on earth are you talking about?
You referenced a study and you said the study proved that love was neurological (or something like that). The study did not prove conclusively what you said it concluded. It's not the fault of the researchers because they were honest. It is your fault for attempting to use their research for your conclusions.So, Im not going against scientific research. I'm going against your faulty use of it in a debate.
JK- Oh ok i get wht you mean, the love issue. Well if you have a better explanation of how love is created please go ahead. Also note tht animals also experience love(you can see tht in dogs) but once their brain is damaged by rabis all the love is gone. Doesnt take too much brain power to notice theres a connection between the operation of healthy neurons and love.
Yes, for all things scientific. For those things that are not scientific, science is useless.
JK- Whatever is not scientific is not necesarily true or cannot be said to be true so to talk abt such would be useless and harmful in the long run.
OK, then, please provide to me, with references, the evidence to support and explain the idea that quantum particles only appear because we are observing them.
If you can't, then you have no choice but to stand corrected.JK- I never made tht claim. I clearly admitted tht we dont yet know everything about quantum particles but to assume theres some sort of magic going on there is as ridiculous as it can get. Ppl once thought the same of the brain and the mind but now we know better.
May lead?? Without imagination there is no discovery my friend. Nevertheless, I agree with the rest. But how do you know it's nonsense until you explore? Up til now, anything without evidence you already consider to be nonsense. If you won't consider anything without evidence, you'll never find anything new.
Peace,
TayJK- Imagination is the combination of various observations which accumulate in the neural network. Try to imagine a color which you havnt experienced before, a new color. It wld hardly be possible and even if it would it would be a unique mixture of available visual info in the brain. Now i never said using imagination is wrong. But we must filter out the rational and irrational imaginations by using science and the scientific method later on i.e. once we think something up which we think maybe rational we still need to scientifically verify it. Thts is infact the 1st stage in science, the formation of a hypothesis coming more or less through random thoughts or in rare cases a rationally processed combination of pre existing infos. Just throwing up imagination as fact wont do. Thts wht i meant. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "Arnold",
Jonny, there is a big difference between God knowing the possibilities and also which we prefer and us not having Free Will, a very big difference. The Quran clearly states we have Free Will. This means that the results must be interpretated, if they are consistent, in a different way.
JK- I think now wer running into a problem of understanding terms. How do you define "free will" because what is usually understood by the term is that we can choose to control mind but we actually are our mind ourselves so tht doesnt make sense. Then theres the claim tht we control our neural processes but then again numerious suggestion experiments show the contrary. Yet if we asseume the neural network in our brain is controlled by quantum partilces which are yet controlled by further quantum particles and so on, then tht only leads to infinite regression but not non causality or magic so wheres the free will? You must be understanding freewill differently. GOD Bless!
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my dearest JK,
with all due respect, sometimes I am lost as to what the heck you are talking about in your various posts. could you a be a little more clearer, briefer, conciser and to the pointer. i have the same problem with a few others here who post or respond just to be just plain argumentative and/or to be just plain vain.
why can't we be all like Brother Tay and Brother Layth and Brother Arnold and Brother Jankren. .... )-
With Much Love & Respect,
Uncle Harry
Traveling With My Sweetheart "Aunt" Louise in Aleutian Islands, Alaska -
This shows how little you understand of science Jonny. I have had numerous conversations in the past with you, and always it showed how little you understood as you always tried to bent the facts to your limited understanding of the subject. Like I said dozens of times before, BUY books on the subject and do not be just dependent on the internet as it doesn't even give half of the needed info. If you believe Quantum Physics is 'magic' it shows how little you know about it.
How can you judge the whole subject if you only understand one side?
Peace bro
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Peace bro "arnold"
This shows how little you understand of science Jonny. I have had numerous conversations in the past with you, and always it showed how little you understood as you always tried to bent the facts to your limited understanding of the subject. Like I said dozens of times before, BUY books on the subject and do not be just dependent on the internet as it doesn't even give half of the needed info. If you believe Quantum Physics is 'magic' it shows how little you know about it.
How can you judge the whole subject if you only understand one side?
Peace bro
JK- Brother im sorry but now youve totally misunderstood what i said for I NEVER claimed to believe that quantum mechanics is magic by any means BUT i do know that "psychics" and many other pseudoscientists and con artists claim that it is and often resort to it without understanding the subject. You should have directed these stateemnts to them not to me. I was simply asking you HOW DO YOU define free will and i gave to you a brief explanation of how most of the common people and/or pseudoscientists define it. So once again HOW DO YOU define free will considering everything occurs as a result of a previous cause? GOD Bless!
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Peace "Harry&Louise",
my dearest JK,
with all due respect, sometimes I am lost as to what the heck you are talking about in your various posts. could you a be a little more clearer, briefer, conciser and to the pointer. i have the same problem with a few others here who post or respond just to be just plain argumentative and/or to be just plain vain.
JK- There will most probably always be parts at some point or another which you, myself and others wont understand regarding anyones post, not just mine. This is why i continue to do my best to clarify the points i stated over and over throughout the thread, adding a few more details in every consecutive post. This is what free minds all about. We need to consider everyones post, analyse it and then state our conclusions and so on and one day we might just unite.
why can't we be all like Brother Tay and Brother Layth and Brother Arnold and Brother Jankren. .... )-
JK- This idolization of ppl is not good. All of these people youve mentioned have very good points on various issues but they all, inclusing myself, also have their shortcomings so a generalization like that would not be right. GOD Bless!
With Much Love & Respect,
JK- Likewise. ) GOD Bless!
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Peace "Harry&Louise", JK- Likewise. ) GOD Bless!
My dearest JK -- I admire you for taking the grandfatherly advice in the same spirit that it was offered! You are a class act.
Granma Louise & I are taking a cruise through Alaska ... via Alaska Marine Highway Ferry System .... from Bellingham, Washington to Skagway, Alaska ... with quite a few port of calls in between. Last week, we flew with a bush pilot to the Aleutian Islands on a side trip/group tour. The reason I mention all this is to share/report that there are no degrees of separation amongst various cultures, religions and ways of life.
Multitude of native tribes and sub-tribes inhabit Alaska ... Tlingits (Klinkits), Haida, Intuits, various Eskimo tribes, etc. It was interesting to note that in all their story tellings amongst various tribes that we visited, the "story of raven" is predominant and how the brave raven taught them how to bury their dead.
Although my own story-telling is not related to this thread at all, thought to share this with fellow free-minders. If you get a chance, check out James Michener's excellent book, ALASKA, to enjoy ... his book was the impetus for our trip to Alaska. Next stop Hawaii!!!!!
Granpa Harry & Granma Louise
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Salam.
What about cause and effect?
If we have no free will and no free choice, why is it that i cause a certain effect in people when i go out?I go out.
I enter a store.
Sales person asks"How can i help you?"
I think"Would she said this sentence, if i never entered the store?"
My question"Who or what caused her question?"
Further more"Would she even say this sentence, if i never entered the store?"There is no spoon .... if you close your eyes.
Peace.