Why I Have No Free Will
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Peace bro "tay",
Peace Jonny,
No offense, bro, but I doubt you've experienced being in love if you can characterize it by "watching the pattern of her behavior". That sounds more like lust. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and we experience different flavors of love. At any rate, my own experience with it is pretty far from what you've described here and in your arguments. You'll just have to take my word for it. God knows best.
Peace,
TayJK- The only differenec between lust and love is scale, just as in micro and macroevolution. Ofcourse this is a simplified example. Whilst during lust only certain types of hormones(the sexual ones) cause actve excitiement, theres a whole lot more of various hormones produced in various parts of the body plus also various more neural activitiy in the brain and it is an experience which causes way more excitement than mere lust. You feel it in your whole body. And yes i did experience tht bro "tay" and it was not just lust as you say. I also gave you other stronger examples of love btw myself and my parents. I think we can both agree tht the love for ones mom is stronger than tht to ones wife and it is more likely to be permanent. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
I wish I could. From my experience, love comes from beyond our understanding. Not magical, not mystical, just beyond understanding, like God is beyond understanding. And just how someone who believes and has unconditional faith in God has a difficult time expressing it in words, so too is the experience of love. Yes, there are physical characteristics that are the result of love. But these do not define love.
That's really all I can say about it.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace bro "tay",
Peace Jonny,
I wish I could. From my experience, love comes from beyond our understanding. Not magical, not mystical, just beyond understanding, like God is beyond understanding. And just how someone who believes and has unconditional faith in God has a difficult time expressing it in words, so too is the experience of love. Yes, there are physical characteristics that are the result of love. But these do not define love.
That's really all I can say about it.
Peace,
TayJK- There are many statmentds above which i caanot agree with. 1) It is not true that physical characteristics dont define or effect love for they do, since there are physical factors which may increase or decrease the love for someone, anyone. This could be as a result of deeds a person does, how much he hurts other people, his overall behaviour, etc. Moreover i also showed you many articles how the scientific community reasonbly explains as to how love comes into being. My qs now is Why do you want so badly to make a mystery out of love instead of accepting the more reasonable explanations of the scientific community at hand?. I just dont understand this. 2) What do you mean by unconditional faith in GOD? I beleive in GOD because my rational thought plus much evidence of it strongly supports His existence. If you have any other reasons plz share them with me. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
Why do you want so badly to make a mystery out of love instead of accepting the more reasonable explanations of the scientific community at hand?.
It's not a question of what I want so badly. It's a question of what I've experienced. What more can I tell you, Jonny, besides the fact that what I've experienced is not fully expressable by our terms and understandings?
What do you mean by unconditional faith in GOD? I beleive in GOD because my rational thought plus much evidence of it strongly supports His existence.
Yes, that's my rational mind agreeing with you. But unconditional faith based on experiencing God in your life is a whole different ballgame.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Jonny,
I wish I could. From my experience, love comes from beyond our understanding. Not magical, not mystical, just beyond understanding, like God is beyond understanding.
Love and emotions in general, I don't think they are beyond our understanding, I think it's just beyond our ability to express them that's the real problem. Love, like all other forms of human emotion is an intangible concept. Poets, artists, musicians have long battled to express these intangibilities of human emotions, you can get the gist of their message but never what they really want to express, the full degree. The problem is this, our own understanding of emotions such as love is based on our own experiences, so when YOU say love, it will be completely different when I say love, since it's based on my understanding of it. Similarly, I think my understanding of love is completely different to that of a grandparent or a parent, or even someone in the depths of romance or engaged, I can only imagine what they feel, though in all honesty have no real idea. So it's not a problem of it being beyond our understanding, it's a problem of communication and expression of what we understand. Remember this is an intangible idea, we can't quantify it, nor put it in a universal measurement for all to understand.
And just how someone who believes and has unconditional faith in God has a difficult time expressing it in words, so too is the experience of love. Yes, there are physical characteristics that are the result of love. But these do not define love.
Yes, this is exactly my point, and I agree with you the characteristics that result of love does not define love.
Peace bro "tay",
JK-My qs now is Why do you want so badly to make a mystery out of love instead of accepting the more reasonable explanations of the scientific community at hand?. I just dont understand this
To say that love is an emotion as a result of chemicals and hormones released in our brains, is only a half truth. What it does to us, what we feel, is not only intangible and based on individual physiology but goes beyond what any other person feels, since the emotion itself is largely based on our own experiences. It is safe to assume an orphan who's never known their parents would not have any idea of what "love" you feel for yours JK. Love is not a constant, it's not an emotion with the same prevalence or degree, it's exact definition is a problem because of this, it is wholly defined on the basis of the understanding and experiences of the individual. Science might explain what happens when we fall in love, the physiological conditions, what it cannot explain is why and for whom. Why did you fall in love with one woman over the other. The science of psychology have tried hard to explain this, Sigmund Freud came up with a lot of interesting idea's, you love a certain women because she reminds you of your mother, according to Freud men have a desire to fornicate with their moms and kill their fathers... Psychologist think up of many different ideas, but the matter of fact is, we just really don't know. It's true, science is starting to understand and explain how we fall in love, the processes in the brain, but it still very much can't explain why, what reasons and actions trigger these chemical releases that we associate with love. It's still very much guess work, I guess it will be for sometime because man has not been able to fully define it.
Love songs never die, they come in every generation, in every genre, in every language, they're actually quite annoying to me because I really have no idea what they're on about, "when a man loves a woman", shudder urgh!! bleh!! But Maybe one day, perhaps my understanding of this emotion would change, based on my future experiences (hopefully pr due to cooler refined suave future me O0), one day, presumably I can find some meaning to the ideas, expressions of these emotions behind all the love music, when I meet and do fall in love for a Mrs. Rumi. All my past experiences of love, they've been juvenile to say the least.
Peace peace Sorry to butt into your little conversation, please continue, it's fun reading. Well, there's my thought on it.
Cheers, Rumi
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Peace bro "tay",
Peace Jonny,
It's not a question of what I want so badly. It's a question of what I've experienced. What more can I tell you, Jonny, besides the fact that what I've experienced is not fully expressable by our terms and understandings?
Yes, that's my rational mind agreeing with you. But unconditional faith based on experiencing God in your life is a whole different ballgame.
Peace,
TayJK- And this is exactly where the problem lies i.e. PERSONAL EXPERIENCE cannot stand as evidence otherwise there are numerous trinitarians who claim to have experienced Jesus as GOD in the flesh. The mind is capable of becoming delusional. You may wanna check out this clip
http//youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
GOD Bless! -
Peace "rumi",
JK. Love is not a constant, it's not an emotion with the same prevalence or degree, it's exact definition is a problem because of this, it is wholly defined on the basis of the understanding and experiences of the individual. Science might explain what happens when we fall in love, the physiological conditions, what it cannot explain is why and for whom. Why did you fall in love with one woman over the other.
JK- Ofcourse science can also offer explanations as to why you fall in love with one woman and not another. Its based on the pattern of her face, intital expression, style of gestures, pheromones, etc. Did you know that Zebras can tell by observing the patterns of a lion whether hes gonna attack them or not WHILST HES STILL RESTING OR ALMOST ASLEEP IN THE FIELD? Pattern recognition, VERY SUBTLE pattern recognition is what can trigger huge emotions which in one combination or another lead to what is experienced as love and as youve said it is hence experienced differently but yet the intensity of combined emotions is at a certain high ot so tht one lables it as such.
The science of psychology have tried hard to explain this, Sigmund Freud came up with a lot of interesting idea's, you love a certain women because she reminds you of your mother, according to Freud men have a desire to fornicate with their moms and kill their fathers... Psychologist think up of many different ideas, but the matter of fact is, we just really don't know. It's true, science is starting to understand and explain how we fall in love, the processes in the brain, but it still very much can't explain why, what reasons and actions trigger these chemical releases that we associate with love. It's still very much guess work, I guess it will be for sometime because man has not been able to fully define it.
JK- We cannot exactly ofcourse exactly predict what particvular emotions are responsible for a certain person to exclaim tht he/shes in love because the brains processes can be very chaotic relative to us but we do have very resonable non occult explanations at hand as ive mentioned above. GOD Bless!
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Peace "rumi",
JK- Ofcourse science can also offer explanations as to why you fall in love with one woman and not another. Its based on the pattern of her face, intital expression, style of gestures, pheromones, etc.Peace JK,
What you're talking about is NOT love, it is attraction, specifically pheromones and the symmetrical attributes of the face, they have all been documented as means of attraction, NOT love, these are 2 distinctly different things, don't confuse them. Why we fall "in love" for one person over another is still quite an unknown, there's a great deal of literature on this subject but the compatibility of partners really does transcends physical attraction and its causes. Personally I've gone out with models, but yet I've never "clicked" with them in any real meaningful way, I was never in love with them, on the basis of my experience there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.
Rumi
PS, I almost feel sorry for your partner (if you have one), you've relegated a highly complex and intense human emotion such as love on the basis of mere qualities of attraction, your explaining love based on "pheromones, gestures, facial patterns", it kinda takes the romance out of things, I doubt you'd be winning many hearts like this. But hey Casanova it's your call.
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peace Rumi,
I do agree, that JK is confusing love with attraction, but I think he has a valid point here. Just because we haven't understood what causes love yet, doesn't mean we can never understand it. Scientifically speaking. His point is that there must be something (like pheromones) that make someone love another.
I don't necessarily agree with JK here, but he's got a point. -
Peace,
People are seeing black and white here.
Love is created and expressed by the body in several ways, including hormones and so on. Also why we fall in love does have to do with the compatiblity of the partner with your own. These 'decisions' if a person is suited for you is determined through several psychological and physiological factors. It is an exchange between the mind and the body, and if the two agree, then love appears.
This can happen on a sub-conciousness level and is also why people suddenly have the feeling of love for somebody. It can never be just a biological decision, it is always an exchange between the (sub)conciousness opinion of a person and how the body reacts to the persons physiology. This is also why homosexuals can fall in love with the same sex, if it was pure biological as our internet-amateur-scientists claim, then homosexuals could not fall in love, as the physiological factor would be to incomplete to be the key factor.
When it comes to love, the psychological factor, be it Subconcious or concious, is dominant and the decider, the biological factor only gives an extra push, or just only a first push. When you feel attracted to somebody, it is your mind that is attracted to a person, which your body response too with hormones and pheromones. Desire is mostly determined by what the psyche thinks it wants, and the desire is the drive and the 'search' function.
Also, with a long term relationship, it is certain hormones that gives the social bond its strength, but these hormones are created through psychological decisions.
This interaction between mind and body has so many factors involved, it will take years and years to understand them all. The magic will never be gone, as even though we would understand every factor, we will see how complex it is and thus how special it is. I know all the molecules and forces involved that make stars and so on, but this doesn't make the stars less beautifull to experience.
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Peace "rumi",
Peace JK,
What you're talking about is NOT love, it is attraction, specifically pheromones and the symmetrical attributes of the face, they have all been documented as means of attraction, NOT love, these are 2 distinctly different things, don't confuse them. Why we fall "in love" for one person over another is still quite an unknown, there's a great deal of literature on this subject but the compatibility of partners really does transcends physical attraction and its causes. Personally I've gone out with models, but yet I've never "clicked" with them in any real meaningful way, I was never in love with them, on the basis of my experience there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.
Rumi
JK- Personally ive fallen in love with women whom i chatted with WITHOUT even seeing them at all. Once again i can see tht u didnt understand As i said love is when many emotions mix together to cause a very high stimulation. It can be initiated due to any simple attraction, yes. Eg attachment of ideas or expression of feelings even if in words like in my case. I was totally in love. A simple attraction can lead to a chain reaction in the brain based on what one has acquired beforehand and turn into a major neural activity which gives great pleasure and is termed by humans, inluding myself as love.
PS, I almost feel sorry for your partner (if you have one), you've relegated a highly complex and intense human emotion such as love on the basis of mere qualities of attraction, your explaining love based on "pheromones, gestures, facial patterns", it kinda takes the romance out of things, I doubt you'd be winning many hearts like this. But hey Casanova it's your call.
JK- As i said those are the intiaters. Ofcourse complex processes thereafter take place in the brain which can lead to a relative extreme pleasure known by us as love. The word "mere" by you is a gross simplification. But to claim love is something supernatural or even think that it might be whilst theres tons of evidence suggesting otherwise is absurd to say the least. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "Arnold",
First of all i agree with you for most of te part BUT do not comprehend this statement of yours...It(love) can never be just a biological decision, it is always an exchange between the (sub)conciousness opinion of a person and how the body reacts to the persons physiology.
JK- Why have you decided to separate the human consciousness from biology? Technically such a distinction does NOT EXIST for the consciousness and/or psyche of a human is due to the various neural activities taking place in the brain which is a biological function too. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "lobster",
peace Rumi,
I do agree, that JK is confusing love with attraction,JK- NO sorry im NOT confusing love with attraction. I clearly mentioned that love is a feeling which is 1) initiated by attraction and 2) even then only comes into being if tht inital attraction leads to a chain of many exciting stimulations in the brain which also takes the subconscious part into account. I think brother Arnold explained this very well.
but I think he has a valid point here. Just because we haven't understood what causes love yet, doesn't mean we can never understand it. Scientifically speaking. His point is that there must be something (like pheromones) that make someone love another.
I don't necessarily agree with JK here, but he's got a point.JK- Yes these may be the initiators but even i as i beleive have made it clear that it's a complex and intense chain reaction in various parts of the brain causing great pleasure. To give a very simplified example consider the initial triangle shaped arrangement of balls on a billaiard table. Only CERTAN velocities will lead to a case in which all balls enter their holes on a single initial stroke. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
For a person who mostly only knows science through the internet, I suggest to learn to speak with less certainty on matters and buy some books. The conciousness and all its levels, has far more factors involved then just neurons. Quantum Biology has just started to be understood.
You are trying so hard to prove your point, while you only use such limited sources, you do not even take the effort to buy books and study more.
Everytime you believe something is true, you bite into it and do not let go. You behave the same now with this subject as you did with the creation/evolution subject. I suggest to have more peace, more humbleness and more effort to study the subject using more sources before jumping so blindly into it. And I say this with all respect brother. True love can only be understood when you have peace in your being. The 'love' you experencied for your chat-girlfriend was triggered more by your desire to have a girl.
Sorry to say, but you can't judge love correctly from the little experience you have.
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Peace bro "Arnold",
Peace Jonny,
For a person who mostly only knows science through the internet, I suggest to learn to speak with less certainty on matters and buy some books. The conciousness and all its levels, has far more factors involved then just neurons. Quantum Biology has just started to be understood.
JK- As ive said before the majority of the scietific community does NOT ACCEPT quantum biology as yet for the evidence is not enough to say for certain that the quantum field effects/intervenes with neural processes. However if you know of any neural research center which has provided some sort of evidence for such i would be very pleased to know.
You are trying so hard to prove your point, while you only use such limited sources, you do not even take the effort to buy books and study more.
JK- I think the internet is a wide base, in human terms, an infinite source of information and i usually refer to scientific sites. Yes before i used to beleive in a lot of pseudoscience.
Everytime you believe something is true, you bite into it and do not let go. You behave the same now with this subject as you did with the creation/evolution subject. I suggest to have more peace, more humbleness and more effort to study the subject using more sources before jumping so blindly into it. And I say this with all respect brother.
JK- This time it's not about me beleiving something as true since we both apparently agree that love is due to causal and natural factors, but me being skeptical about the quantum interference in the neural network.
True love can only be understood when you have peace in your being. The 'love' you experencied for your chat-girlfriend was triggered more by your desire to have a girl.
JK- Oh but i do beleive me brother. Ive felt love many times but i know others may call it fake. However i could equally call theirs fake so i guess this wont get us anywhere. As for my desire to have a girl i dont get the point. When you love something you wish that person to be with you or near you, not because you wanna posess him/her, but because that gives you amazing feelings we call love.
Sorry to say, but you can judge love correctly from the little experience you have.
JK- Did you say i CAN or cant? ) How do you know that i have little experience? ) GOD Bless!
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Peace jonny......
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Peace bro "Arnold",
If you know of any neural research center which has provided some sort of evidence indicating that the quatum field intervenes/interacts with the neural network/individual neurons in any way i would be very pleased to know.
GOD Bless!