Remembering the true nature of our enemy

jankren

I can see why Quranists do not believe in stoning to death for adultery. It depends on what you accept as revelation that determines your view on this matter. Jazak Allah khair.

Exactly my friend. In that case I believe Al Quran is the only revelation Muslims are supposed to follow.

AaRoN

all hail the convoluted logic

Samia

I can see why Quranists do not believe in stoning to death for adultery. It depends on what you accept as revelation that determines your view on this matter. Jazak Allah khair.

Correction I can't see; because you can't see the Truth.
Depends on what you accept as revalation? We accept ONE revalation, but that does not satisfy you, and you can't see, can't understand, wonder why...

savage_carrot

Agree with Samia. There is no relativity involved here. One revelation that is supposedly accepted by all yet conveniently ignored.

Yosemite

On the contrary, there is a verse whose wording has been forgotten, but the ruling still applies, it is called the Verse of Rajm (stoning).

Are you saying that Allah could not guard the full integrity and truth of His book?

Samia

The recitation of the verse of rajm was abrogated, but its ruling is still applicable.

Hazrat Umar (ra) said No doubt, Allah sent Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) with the Truth and revealed to him the Book (Quran), and among what was revealed, was the Verse of Ar-Rajm (stoning adulterers to death). (Sahih Bukhari)

Now, this "hadith" belongs to Omar, not to the prophet, so it is not a prophetic saying, but a "omaric" one. Does God say "obey the companions"?

Also, what was the prophet doing losing verses? Isn't it his job to deliver? Do you imply that he was not that honest or careful? Or is this a result of him being "illiterate" he did not know what was written and what was missing? What an insult to the prophet!! You should be ashamed of what you believe.

Ghulam_Rasool

Now, this "hadith" belongs to Omar, not to the prophet, so it is not a prophetic saying, but a "omaric" one. Does God say "obey the companions"?

Also, what was the prophet doing losing verses? Isn't it his job to deliver? Do you imply that he was not that honest or careful? Or is this a result of him being "illiterate" he did not know what was written and what was missing? What an insult to the prophet!! You should be ashamed of what you believe.

Allah is the one who causes verses to be forgotten, which are part of His own plan.

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)

Samia

Allah is the one who causes verses to be forgotten, which are part of His own plan.

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)

Just great! God causes the verse to be forgotten, but Omar remembers it brickwall
According to this hadith, it seems that neither the prophet nor his lord are doing a good job! Omar beat them both and Bukhari beat the hell out of muslims.

And what, in your opinion, was the better or similar substitution, or any substitution of this alleged lost-and-found verse?

Ghulam_Rasool

Just great! God causes the verse to be forgotten, but Omar remembers it

Allah caused the WORDING of the verse to be forgotten. Even Hazrat Omar (ra) did not remember the wording of the ayatur rajm. However, he was among many of the sahaba who were witnesses to the tanzil of Holy Quran, and he knew for a fact that a verse commanding stoning to death for adultery had indeed been revealed in the Holy Quran, though he did not remember the wording of the verse (which is why it isnt found in the Holy Quran), because the wording was caused to be forgotten/abrogated by Allah (though the ruling of the verse still applies).

So I suggest you consult the following resource to learn more about this matter
http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1856&CATE=1

Nurd

Allah caused the WORDING of the verse to be forgotten. Even Hazrat Omar (ra) did not remember the wording of the ayatur rajm. However, he was among many of the sahaba who were witnesses to the tanzil of Holy Quran, and he knew for a fact that a verse commanding stoning to death for adultery had indeed been revealed in the Holy Quran, though he did not remember the wording of the verse (which is why it isnt found in the Holy Quran), because the wording was caused to be forgotten/abrogated by Allah (though the ruling of the verse still applies).

So I suggest you consult the following resource to learn more about this matter
http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1856&CATE=1

Unfortunately your link uses only hadith as proof, and since those cannot be trusted they fail to prove anything. All we can know for sure is that the Quran does not have in it any verses telling us to stone adulterers therefor it should not be done.

Peace,

Nurd

zenje

Peace Nurd and all,

Yusha has been warned about this issue. If he is to talk about hadith he is supposed to be doing it in the appropriate section on this board.

Ghulam_Rasool

Dear brother, I am using the HOLY QURAN to justify my arguments and beliefs. Please go through my posts and see the sheer number of verses which I have quoted.

zenje

I have gone through your posts just today, the one here with the link, the other one in the Latest news section, where you quote a verse which is fine, and then you continue to validate your point with hadith.

Peace

phoenix1

Peace
well, I don't think the "revelatiions" in 2106 is referring to verses but doesn't it say that god does not allow revelations to be forgotten?

Yosemite

Allah is the one who causes verses to be forgotten, which are part of His own plan.

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)

Wait, because before the "do We abrogate" is written "None of Our revelations". This means it talks about revelations, books, right? Then we have "but We substitute something better or similar" This means the stoning have been subsitued to something better or similar, right?

Tell me if 'im wrong here please.

Samia

Wait, because before the "do We abrogate" is written "None of Our revelations". This means it talks about revelations, books, right? Then we have "but We substitute something better or similar" This means the stoning have been subsitued to something better or similar, right?

Tell me if 'im wrong here please.

Good point, Yosemite. You do not bring a new verse in order to abrogate it by an older one! Why the trouble in the first place?

Ghulam_Rasool

Wait, because before the "do We abrogate" is written "None of Our revelations". This means it talks about revelations, books, right? Then we have "but We substitute something better or similar" This means the stoning have been subsitued to something better or similar, right?

Tell me if 'im wrong here please.

The wording of the verse of stoning has been caused to be forgotten (by Allah). It has been replaced by something similar, which is found in the Ahadeeth.

but We substitute something better or similar

phoenix1

Yusha, 2106 says that NONE of the revelations are abrogated or caused to be forgotten. They are NOT abrogated or caused to be forgotten by god. Unless I'm reading that verse wrong.

Samia

The wording of the verse of stoning has been caused to be forgotten (by Allah). It has been replaced by something similar, which is found in the Ahadeeth.

but We substitute something better or similar

And the substitute is?

Ghulam_Rasool

Unless I'm reading that verse wrong

Yes, you're reading it wrong. Here is the full verse in English

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)