Remembering the true nature of our enemy
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Muhammed Ali in his translation, commentary on verse 242
242 The adulteress and the adulterer,
flog each of them (with) a hundred
stripes,a and let not pity for them
detain you from obedience to All?h,
if you believe in All?h and the Last
Day, and let a party of believers witness
their chastisement.I wonder if the word 'flog' can be put under interpretation. To 'flog' basically means 'to strike,' but according to the definintions of dictionary.com
"1. to beat with a whip, stick, etc., esp. as punishment; whip; scourge."
What you can strike the offender with is open to discusion.
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His beliefs may very well be "incorrect," but according to whose understanding?
According to what the site promotes as the correct understanding with the evidence given. I hope that was clear enough. We've been through this with the "why isn't freeminds the fickleminds site" before.
This isn't a very clear, or necessary rule. People should be able to say whatever the hell they want, and it's up to others to listen to it or not.
People can say whatever the hell they want but if it's a belief that can harm others and if they do so consistently and can't back it up with other than, "Because I believe so and no matter what the quran says", even when evidence is offered to the contrary... it's not good. This forum is a place to learn and debate, not to rant.
According to probably hundreds of people on this forum I have mocked the Quran, and the only thing I have had to back it up has been my subjective understanding of the world and the quran.
If you were to be told, look see for yourself, there is no stoning for adulterers in the quran, the quran already gives the punishments for adultery, the hadith is not a criteria that can abrogate the quran according to the quran itself...would you still keep at it? A logical mind tends to reason through the trail of evidence and realises oops, this is not a claim that's valid regardless of which religion (or the lack of) they claim to follow or their subjective understanding of the world and the quran.
If someone is being illogical, we try to acquaint them with logic, if someone does not know the facts, we try to acquaint them with the facts. If someone still persists in ranting about things with no evidence, that may cause harm to someone else inclusive of their own selves, then this is not the site/forum to advocate/encourage/ignore something like that. I've seen the harm that these unfounded beliefs do everyday and I'm not about to say, it's alright...words can never hurt you, just their opinion. Words have the power to shape/influence minds, those minds control bodies that believe it or not, have actually hurt people. A person can choose to exercise their reasoning over what they hear or think and determine right or wrong but sadly, many don't as well and end up with minds that are capable of harming people. It's not enough to say it's their fault and they should know better, those who were watching should take it seriously. So, if someone was standing on a public corner spouting off the merits of stoning people and how its a divine decree, I would like to see him carted away.
I bet if Ahmad Baghat or Al Quraishi were a mod, I'd have all my posts deleted in that other thread you locked (also unecessary).
They aren't mods and it wasn't unnecessary locking that thread. Most of us do not want to see petty squabbling. Most of us know how things were like not too long ago and many do not want it spiralling down the same path. Freedom comes with some responsibility, so we should use it right.
I don't agree with what Yusha said, but his opinion is just as valid as a lot of others I read here every day.
I do not agree. Opinions that are encourage causing harm to others with no evidence whatsover aren't worth anyone's time especially when they are spouted consistently.
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if someone was standing on a public corner spouting off the merits of stoning people and how its a divine decree, I would like to see him carted away.
True.
If someone is being illogical, we try to acquaint them with logic, if someone does not know the facts, we try to acquaint them with the facts.
Yes, but I don't see the use deleting posts and banning members in that. If it's only for promoting physical harm, I can understand. So, yeah, I guess I agree. -*
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Peace,
we can never abandon what he taught us, no matter how much it offends so called "human rights".
That in itself is an indictment on the kid. I'm sorry, but this is the epitome of wickedness - no matter what train of thought or experience led him there. This attitude represents the darkest tier of the so-called muslim (peaceful) world and should have no place on this forum, in my humble opinion.
To voice an opinion that maintains what one believes to be "what he taught us" as overriding and hierarchical of human rights is non-quranic, un-islamic, in opposition of peace, and frankly, barbaric. Just as well, it goes against the very mission of this website as stated on the homepage...
This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...
This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.
Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...
If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...
Note the emphasis. If you are not one of those people, then you are not welcome.
Peace,
Tay -
Yes, but I don't see the use deleting posts and banning members in that.If it's only for promoting physical harm, I can understand. So, yeah, I guess I agree.
We don't usually delete posts, infact its rare when that happens.
As far as banning members goes, if they break the rules consistently, they are on their way out. These rules also cover the ranters (definition who claim to have polar opposite beliefs to what the site promotes, yet still consistently post because they are frustrated at those beliefs personally, want to be contrary and cause dissent to the exclusion of any evidence that goes against their views. They put up token resistence to any refutation and/or insist and repeat their views stubbornly, aren't here to discuss or learn but to promote/encourage their own view). Then there are the trolls (definition those posting inflammatory topics for the sake of starting a flame war or just general chaos and dissent, they too put up a token resistance if at all, their most defining characteristic is the lack of participation after posting a juicy topic that gets people riled up. Maybe they sit and rub their hands with glee after, but no one can truly know what the motivations of trolls can be (unless tortured by fire P), thus they are a bit different from the ranters). No one wants these types on their forum, because eventually if it's done consistently, it brings the quality down; causes dissatisfaction from the people there for it's primary purpose and is a general annoyance with no tangible benefits in the long run.
I would like to reiterate what Tay said, please look at the site and it's mission statement. This is not a free for all forum for any and everyone to trample over as they wish. There have been so many posters in the past with different beliefs, who have debated/questioned a bit, learnt something or not and left or stayed yet participated with politeness and respect to the others also participating, and to what the site/forum is all about.
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Islam's enemy is not any races but syethan in the form among men and jinn
And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
Todays conflicts between Islam and others not a conflict of idiologies but regional conflict quarelling of lands, oils, economics.
All Prophets were exerting struggles to make Islam as the only ad-deen for men (QS.61/9), so the enemies were idiologies made by father of nations.
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Peace Jankren n all,
I think what is kind of frustrating is that Yusha himself does not seem to be interested to be engaged in this discussion in the first place. I think he is content with what he believes in and will never consider other views.
I agree with what you, and the mods have said here. At first I was defending Yusha in that, he has his beliefs and just because he does, he shouldn't be shunned or attacked. I still stand by that, however, it seems like the 'princezeds' of the past, these type people not here to have intelligent or healthy discussions or debates. They are stuck in their ways and are only interested in preaching, and not once listening. nope
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I think before taking care the external enemy we should fix the enemies within first such as the ones who are promoting stoning to death practice in the name of Islam.
It is ****ing idotic that they often punish the females only for what they call 'wicked' behavior.
Peace Jankren, Honor
Multiply this x1.5million in Iraq and you get what so called civilised people have done to Arabs. As backward as some of those people in the video are, don't ever forget that western people are not dumb, know what they are doing and their leaders, backed by the people, have brought misery on hundreds of millions, if not billions of people.
As for Yusha, the problem in those countries are that you have on one side village idiot religious leaders with their backward message that leads nowhere versus people who want to ape western society with all of it's problems. The latter are viewed with suspicion and hostility due to western actions througout the world.
Roshan
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Peace all,
This happens when you follow those corrupt laws in the OT Bible(here stoning for adultery) which were supposedly also carried out by Moses and now these fing sectarians claim that this is what Muhammad practiced. I beleive these bastards arte working together with the Jeiwsh Elite. Man this is deliberate. This is totally fed up. We need to get those responsible and cut every f**ing piece of their body off and feed it to the dogs. >( >( >( -
Peace Jankren, Honor
Multiply this x1.5million in Iraq and you get what so called civilised people have done to Arabs. As backward as some of those people in the video are, don't ever forget that western people are not dumb, know what they are doing and their leaders, backed by the people, have brought misery on hundreds of millions, if not billions of people.
Noone is saying one side is better than the other. However, the fact is you cannot defend yourself from outside powers if you still believe in backward stuff such as killing your own people especially the women by stoning them to death just for showing 'forbiden' love to the opposite sex while at the same time they are silent on those who chant 'Death to America', 'Death to the Jews', and 'Death to the infidels'.
As for Yusha, the problem in those countries are that you have on one side village idiot religious leaders with their backward message that leads nowhere versus people who want to ape western society with all of it's problems. The latter are viewed with suspicion and hostility due to western actions througout the world.
Oh please bro, the Muslim world used to do the same thing which was terrorizing much of the known world. Do you know that shortly before the first Crusade occurred a band of Arab Muslim raiders sailed from their newly conquered territory Siciliy to Rome and sacked the city including the St. Peter's Basilica? Do you know that at one moment the whole Western civilization was besieged by Muslim civilization from the West in Spain to the East in Austria? Do you know that even the Protestant Icelandic people used to have a Christian song in which they asked God to protect them from the wicked Pope and the marauding Turks who frequently raided here and there as far as Iceland?
All Im saying is that the 'Eastern civilization' had their shares terrorizing others in the past while now the Western civilization is having their shares. And guess what with our mentality today of blaming others for our own shortcomings is not helping anything. Unless we stop all the stupid stuff we do such as promoting stoning to death and death penalty for apostasy we will keep getting our butt kicked by others.
Peace ,
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Peace all,
OK, what do you people think about the rapists? May be the stoning to death was practiced for the rapists or for such rapists who killed the female after raping her. Would you still see stoning to death barbaric? May be you Quran aloners and these traditionalists have understood the situation wrong?
Just curious!
With Respect, Hamsa
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May be the stoning to death was practiced for the rapists or for such rapists who killed the female after raping her.
It isn't reserved only for rapists apparently.Would you still see stoning to death barbaric?
The question in this discussion isn't if stoning to death is barbaric, the question imo to ask is, why is another punishment for adultery (stoning to death) being practised by people who claim to follow the quran when the punishments for adultery are already laid out therein, given that the emphasis on the quran being the criterion is also therein.May be you Quran aloners and these traditionalists have understood the situation wrong?
I don't think anyone is infallible, no matter what labels they have on them. When people have differing views, it's beneficial to analyse the sides and see which is more logical given the evidence.
My husband related this anecdote that took place at his uni recently. Apparently MIT has some really cool professor's. This guy is talking about "axioms of rationality" in his class (sensible statements of consistency among the preferences), goes on about how if someone doesn't choose them to be stupid. There is a pause in which no one says anything, then he goes, "I can't use that word in these hallowed halls of knowledge, therefore we can just call them irrational".
Moral of the story is, whatever beliefs and/or system one picks should be well thought out, have consistency in it rather than contradictions. The mind has to be utilised to analyse it from all angles and eventually picking one that is the most rational with the least amount of contradictions or best of all none. Surprisingly, this is what the quran itself asks from the reader, to verify for themselves and follow the best(1736, 3918 etc). Many times the sentences are constructed in a manner forcing us to use logic to reason through the statements made and when we superimpose those statements onto the bigger picture. It sharpens our minds and this is what I found to be one of the coolest aspects of the quran.
edit to add
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Peace all,
OK, what do you people think about the rapists? May be the stoning to death was practiced for the rapists or for such rapists who killed the female after raping her. Would you still see stoning to death barbaric? May be you Quran aloners and these traditionalists have understood the situation wrong?
Just curious!
With Respect, Hamsa
peace be upon you hamza
personaly,and i think its logical to think that stoning its way too torturous for a soul,of course the addrenaline doesnt let u feel the pain so intense,but it doesnt go just there,it affects those executing the punishment,they all go crazy and the minds change from that day,generation to generation with the same barbaric punishments only makes them savage animals.
the best way is a good ol tree and a long rope,let those who go over the limits hang from it.
i saw the video and for a second i lost hope on humanity,although all the time i think we can do better but not before a change, a revolution.and if the humans do not change i hope God makes the human race disapear for ever,even if theres a 50% who is not like that.God almighty knows best.
peace be upon you all and may God punish the wrong doers.
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AOA all
Moral of the story is, whatever beliefs and/or system one picks should be well thought out, have consistency in it rather than contradictions. The mind has to be utilised to analyse it from all angles and eventually picking one that is the most rational with the least amount of contradictions or best of all none. Surprisingly, this is what the quran itself asks from the reader, to verify for themselves and follow the best(1736, 3918 etc). Many times the sentences are constructed in a manner forcing us to use logic to reason through the statements made and when we superimpose those statements onto the bigger picture. It sharpens our minds and this is what I found to be one of the coolest aspects of the quran.
Good to see there is still some intelligence and logic in this forum.
regards -
peace yusha,
how will you explain this verse bro?
24 3. The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
if the punishment for fornication is death by stoning, then why does God commands the believers, not to marry fornicators confused....how can believers marry those who are already dead by stoning? confused
peace
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peace yusha,
how will you explain this verse bro?
24 3. The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
if the punishment for fornication is death by stoning, then why does God commands the believers, not to marry fornicators confused....how can believers marry those who are already dead by stoning? confused
peaceIn that particular Verse Nikah doesn't refer to marriage but the sexual relations. See Lane for different meanings of Nikah. http//www.studyquran.co.uk/
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In that particular Verse Nikah doesn't refer to marriage but the sexual relations. See Lane for different meanings of Nikah. http//www.studyquran.co.uk/
I think it means marriage, mainly because of the last sentence in the verse "and it is forbidden to the believers".
Fornication is forbidden to the believers whether with zani, idolator or anyone else .