Can it be proved that "Qiblatain" is an Arabic word?
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Brother AaRon,
What is stated in 5016-18 is regarding thought and then its utterance as and for this it is the vocal cord that plays the primary/important role in making the thought reach { } others. I am sorry brother that at the moment I could not translate for you the compete article, but you can see here the system how thought is converted into speech, and this part is in English
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_2/14/slides/10.html
When I translate it from my Urdue article I will post it for study, corrections, improvemet, criticism.
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Please,
From what I know, during the time of Jesus (God bless him) it had become officially dead, and shortly after that. During these times Aramaic and Greek were the language of the Jewish temples. The Jews read Aramaic targums and only the very learned priests had any familiarity with Hebrew. It only gained a resurgence after Jews who were also active in studying and learning Arabic grammar reconstructed their language from the study of Classical Arabic grammar, their knowledge of Aramaic, the greek Old Testament text and Hebrew. They then retranslated the Old Testament back into Hebrew, as the original Hebrew text was lost, never to be found again. The Massoretic text (the Hebrew Bible) is from the 10th century AD.
Godbless,
Anwar -
With a veiw that the respected guests visiting this Forum dont get bored from bit by bit information regarding Hebrew, let me post a detailed account/summary of Hebrew, that I borrowed from Encarta with thanks.
"Hebrew is a Semitic language originally adopted by the 'ibhri, or Israelites, when they took possession of the land of Canaan west of the Jordan River in Palestine. The language has also been called the speech of Canaan, and Judean, after the kingdom of Judah. Ancient Hebrew, the language of the Bible, was succeeded by an intermediary form, Mishnaic Hebrew, about the 3rd century BC. Modern Hebrew was developed in the 19th and 20th centuries from the ancient written form of the language.
The language in which most of the Old Testament was written dates, as a living language, from the 12th to the 2nd century BC, at the latest. The territory of Phoenicia adjoined Canaan, and it is probable that Hebrew in its earliest form was almost identical to Phoenician; of the closely related Hebrew and Phoenician language groups, however, Hebrew is decidedly the more important. From about the 3rd century BC the Jews in Palestine came to use Aramaic in both speech and secular writings. Jews outside Palestine spoke in the language of the countries in which they had settled. Hebrew was preserved, however, as the language of ritual and sacred writing and through the centuries has undergone periodic literary revivals.
The original Hebrew alphabet consisted only of consonants (See also Semitic Languages) vowel signs and pronunciation currently accepted for biblical Hebrew were created by scholars known as Masoretes after the 5th century AD. These scholars are thought also to have standardized various dialectal differences.
The vocabulary of biblical Hebrew is small. Concrete adjectives are used for abstract nouns. The paucity of particles, which connect and relate ideas, and the limitation to two verb tenses (perfect and imperfect) cause an ambiguity regarding time concepts; various syntactic devices were employed to clarify relations of time. A past action was indicated by the first in a series of verbs being in the perfect tense and all following verbs in the imperfect; for present or future action the first verb is in the imperfect tense and all subsequent ones in the perfect.
Mishnaic or rabbinic Hebrew, dating from about AD200, was the language of the Mishnah. It was solely a written language but was more adaptable to practical use than biblical Hebrew. The vocabulary and syntactic innovations were strongly Aramaic, and words were borrowed from Greek, Latin, and Persian. New meanings and forms were given to biblical Hebrew words, and the expressions of time were clarified. Hebrew vocabulary was further augmented in the Middle Ages by the Arabic influence on philosophic writing and through translations of Arabic philosophical and scientific works. From the 9th century on, the use of Hebrew declined.Present day Hebrew
When Jews moved to Palestine in the 19th century, Hebrew was revived as a spoken language. Modern Hebrew, Ivrit, was declared the official language of Israel in 1948. The language is written from right to left and employs an alphabet of 22 characters; the vocabulary is based on biblical Hebrew and the syntax on Mishnaic Hebrew. Long vowels are generally expressed in writing by unpronounced consonant sounds. Scriptures, children's books, and poetry use the Masoretic points, which are dots or dashes to indicate vowels. Pronunciation is modeled on that of the Sephardic Jews who live mainly in Turkey, Greece, and Bulgaria. A great number of new words, particularly scientific terms, were needed in order to adapt the ancient written language to contemporary use; the Lithuanian-born scholar Eliezer ben Yehuda single-handedly coined 4000 new words from biblical Hebrew roots. The national languages of Israeli immigrants and Yiddish, the language of the Ashkenazi, or Eastern European Jews, have also influenced modern Hebrew" -
Aaron,
anwar - then isn't that a little different than the circumstances under which english came to borrow so much from latin?
What do you mean? Why are you asking me this question? Can you tell me where this question is coming from so that I can better answer it?
Godbless,
Anwar -
anwar - latin was alive and well when it influenced english... the speakers of the early forms of english were directly influenced by roman rule in western europe and the british isles
if hebrew as a spoken language of the commoners had declined by the 2nd century bce then how did it come to directly influence arabic and the quran borrow words from hebrew, as you claim
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Peace Aaron,
if hebrew as a spoken language of the commoners had declined by the 2nd century bce then how did it come to directly influence arabic and the quran borrow words from hebrew, as you claim
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The Quran did not borrow Hebrew words. I never said that it did. It used NAMES (not vocabulary words) that had already entered the Classical Arabic langauge, mainly through Aramaic.
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Please Remember that the Children of Israel and those who claimed Judaism used Aramaic widely and a few knew how to read Hebrew. The names of the prophets named in Hebrew literature entered Classical Arabic before the Quran through the Christian and Jewish communities who mainly used Aramaic, or a form of Hebraized Aramaic.
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As well the Quran uses Arabic words of Persian origin that entered the langauge before the Quran. This does not mean that the Quran borrowed Persian words. That also goes for Latin and Greek derived words to be found in the Quran.
Again, I never said that the Quran borrowed foreign words ever. It only used Classical Arabic words and names. These names, especially those of prophets also to be found in the Bible, had already entered Classical Arabic through the Aramaic that the Christian and Jewish communities used, as they spoke Classical Arabic, before the advent of the Quran.
Also understand that many Latin words in English entered into English through French after Latin had died, or through Monks who continued to add latin words to English after Latin had died as a language. We can still study Latin today, however its only living remnants are the Romance languages of today.
Godbless,
Anwar -
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qirtaas (cartas) is one, firdawsu (paradiso) is another and I believe qindeelun (I know it is is candela in spanish and candle in English and is any sort of fire-lit object) is mentioned as well. You'll have to give me some time to dig up any others, and I have to double check qindil.
Godbless,
Anwar -
anwar - what latin and greek words are in the quran?
You may wish to read this book (in french)
http//www.amazon.fr/Nous-navons-jamais-lu-Coran/dp/2752600267 -
Salut JM, peace all,
Your reference seems quite interesting, did you read it?
Thanks.
Marie ! That's long time I have'nt read of you ! Hope you are well !
I have read some pieces of it at the book store 2 or 3 years ago... A good read, but not a must read I think...
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"3. As well the Quran uses Arabic words of Persian origin that entered the langauge before the Quran. This does not mean that the Quran borrowed Persian words. That also goes for Latin and Greek derived words to be found in the Quran"{Anwar}
Brother,
I could not understand it after checking about Persian in Encarta
{quote}
Persian Language, also known as Farsi, is the most widely spoken member of the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian languages, a subfamily of the Indo-European languages. It is the language of Iran (formerly Persia) and is also widely spoken in Afghanistan and, in an archaic form, in Tajikistan and the Pamirs mountain region.Three phases may be distinguished in the development of Iranian languages Old, Middle, and Modern. Old Iranian is represented by Avestan and Old Persian. Avestan, probably spoken in the northeast of ancient Persia, is the language of the Avesta, the sacred scriptures of Zoroastrianism. Except for this scriptural use, Avestan died out centuries before the advent of Islam. Old Persian is recorded in the southwest in cuneiform inscriptions of the kings of the Persian Empire (550-331 bc), notably Darius I and Xerxes I. Old Persian and Avestan have close affinity with Sanskrit, and, like Sanskrit, Greek, and Latin, are highly inflected languages.
Middle Iranian is represented not only by Middle Persian and the closely related Parthian language but also by several Central Asian tongues. Parthian was the language of the Arsacid or Parthian Empire (250? bc-ad 224). Although it is known chiefly through inscriptions of the early kings of the following Sassanian period, Parthian declined when Sassanian power expanded. During the Arsacid period, however, it influenced Persian. The language of the Sassanian Empire (ad 224-651) was Middle Persian, often called Pahlavi (a term more strictly reserved for a form of the language used in certain Zoroastrian writings). Middle Persian has a simpler grammar than Old Persian and was usually written in an ambiguous script with multivalent letters, adopted from Aramaic; it declined after the Arab conquest in the 7th century. Although much of the Middle Persian literature was translated into Arabic, the bulk of its writings was lost during Islamic times. Other Middle Iranian tongues were also spoken in Sassanian Persia or in bordering regions of Central Asia Khwarazmian, in Khiva; Bactrian, in Bactria; Sogdian, in the vast region of Sogdiana, including the cities of Samarqand and Bukhara; and Saka (a name associated with various Scythian kingdoms), in Eastern Turkistan. Sogdian produced a body of Christian, Buddhist, and secular literature, and Saka's Khotanese dialect was the vehicle of an important Buddhist literature. Most Khwarezmian texts are from the post-Islamic period. Bactrian is known only in a few recently discovered inscriptions in Afghanistan.
Modern Persian had developed by the 9th century. It is a continuation of an area-wide standard language that had considerable Parthian and Middle Persian elements, with additional influences from other Iranian languages. Written in Perso-Arabic script (an expanded version of Arabic script), it has been the official and cultural language of Persia since it first appeared. Its grammar is simpler than that of Middle Persian, and it has absorbed a vast Arabic vocabulary"
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Those old Persian languages that make up Middle Persian and it's families were the forms of persian that contributed to Old Arabic. I know that sundus is one of these words and that there are a few more to be found in the Quran. These words entered the langauge however before the Quran, which is why the Quran uses them to speak to an Arabic speaking people. Persian after that has changed and morphed and taken on alot of Arabic. But before the Quran and Islam it was the Persian empire that had the dominant influence over the Arabs (as well as the Romans, Greeks and Ethipians at different times) and so Arabic took on persian words to refer to certain objects or ideas of that time. Sundus is one, I believe istabraq is another and there are a few more. After the rise of the Islamic empires Arabic became more prominent than persian and persian began to borrow from Arabic.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Re Can it be proved that "Qiblatain" is an Arabic word?
? Reply #37 on July 21, 2007, 082005 AM ?Okay, I about finished this topic. Mazhar you are being unreasonably stubborn, but that is your choice. The basis of your refusal to correctly understand this issue is that you refuse to understand Classical Arabic and then understand the Quran. You rather choose to try to understand the Quran and then force meanings onto Classical Arabic words, because of the context in which they are used in the Quran, onto all Classical Arabic words. For instance dhoo can be used for human being or a non-human being, but because you only see it being used for a human being in the Quran so you would say it is incorrect to use it for a non-human being, and this is nothing but your mistake and refusal to recognize the rules of Classical Arabic.
We don't need a precedent use for the plural or dual of qibatun to justify the validity of the use of qiblatain. What you are insisting in is non-sensical (I"m sorry I have to even use this word) for anyone who knows Classical Arabic grammar. Any word in Arabic can take dual if you try to communicate that there are two of them. That is just a fact. And every singular word (that communicates a singular idea or thing) in Arabic has a plural, based on its form.{Propgod}
Re dead meat?
? Reply #62 on Today at 015559 AM?Where is this "classical Arabic" then which you claim to be the qur'aa's language? Quraan used "qutila killed/murdered" almost twenty times, and used the VII pattern, but used "inqatala" zero times. Not only that, but it used expressions like "taqtuluuna anfusakum" as in 429; 285; 254; 266 wheres as the verb "tanqatiluu" could have been used if it exists. What does this tell??{Sister Samia}
Am I right now to conclude, on the above analogy, that the "word" ?? or ?? are not the actual words since they neither exist in the Quran nor in what is called ?Classical Arabic? or would brother OPF bring for us these two also from some link?
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Am I right now to conclude, on the above analogy, that the "word" ?? or ?? are not the actual words since they neither exist in the Quran nor in what is called ?Classical Arabic? or would brother OPF bring for us these two also from some link?
Please do not lambast me, I only posted those links to show this is a used/mentioned word. I am not part of the debate/issue regarding that, and it's not my place either.
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Dear OPF,
I checked your link. I copied some of the pages. But I could not operate that site properly. I, in all sincerity, tried to allocate a work for you. It is a study; we should explore every possibility. In studies, sensitivities need not be paid much attention.