Can it be proved that "Qiblatain" is an Arabic word?
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I am also interested in plural since there are three nations who have their individual "Qiblata"
Since I do not know Arabic will you please redraft/translate this verse in Arabic in a manner that for two nations {jews and christians} a dual is applied and then for all three {jews, christian and muslims}nations a plural is used?
It may help me if you think I am in a state of confusion. Thanks in advance. -
I am also interested in plural since there are three nations who have their individual "Qiblata"
Since I do not know Arabic will you please redraft/translate this verse in Arabic in a manner that for two nations {jews and christians} a dual is applied and then for all three {jews, christian and muslims}nations a plural is used?
It may help me if you think I am in a state of confusion. Thanks in advance.Sorry Muzhar let me admit and I have said many times ,that I am not a scholar.It will be better for you contact some scholar of Arabic for this ans ask him "Dual of Qiblatun".It will definitely help you.If possible learn some arabic yourself also.
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Leonyx said speaking of duals in Arabic
This is such a basic principle but a quranist cannot understand.
Was the comment really necessary. I understand it completely and I am a quranist. Anyone who knows Arabic understands this. Unfortunately there are SOME Quranists who do not have a good base in Arabic.
Mazhar,
You are completely and utterly confused. The fact that you don't believe that there are two qiblahs does not mean that the phrase 'two qiblahs' doesn't exist. Let me state it in transliterated Arabic for you.
m&a an laa tu'minu bi wujoodi QIBLATAINI hadhaa laa yubarhinu an laa yuujadu at-ta&beeru qiblatain aw fikratu wujoodi qiblataini maa.
Translation Despite the fact that you don't believe in the existence of two qiblahs that does not prove that the expression 'qiblatain' doesn't exist or the idea of the existence of any two qiblahs.
As you can see for me to refer to the idea of two qiblahs I have to say qiblataini, whether I agree that there are two or not.
What you are saying is like saying the phrase 'two gods' or ilaahaini in Arabic doesn't exist. Despite that and to give an example I do not believe in two gods (for me. As others can have however many gods they want). The phrase two gods is ilaahain in Arabic and i have to use it to refer to the idea of two gods. Look
M&a an laa u'minu bi wujoodi ILAAHAINI hadhaa laa yubarhinu an laa yoojadu at-ta&ibeeru ilaahaini aw fikratu wujoodi ilaahaini maa.
Translation Despite the fact that I don't believe in the existence of two gods that does not proave that the expression ilaahain does not exists, or the idea of the existence of any two gods.
Again as you see for me to speak about two qiblahs or two gods I have to use qiblatain or ilaahain despite whether I believe in their existence or not.
With that said, Mazhar don't you think you have dragged this argument on long enough. To me you are kicking, hitting and spitting to the end of a fight in which you know you are dead wrong. Please can you just end it? We know that you don't believe in the existence of two qiblahs and detest the expression qiblatain but that does not mean that this is not a word. This has nothing to do with Old Arab, Persian or other kinds of Jews either or whether they were the masters of Muslims or not. We know that the Jews and the many Jewish sects that existed in the past had a very large contribution to traditional Islam as we have it today however please do not make degrading and generalizing statements like that. Some of those Jews were faithful to God and some accepted the Quran with righteousness and godliness.
Godbless,
Anwar -
. I understand it completely and I am a quranist. Anyone who knows Arabic understands this. Unfortunately there are SOME Quranists who do not have a good base in Arabic.
Mazhar,
You are completely and utterly confused. The fact that you don't believe that there are two qiblahs does not mean that the phrase 'two qiblahs' doesn't exist. Let me state it in transliterated Arabic for you.
bravo rotfl yay
I appreciate your courage to accept the facts.
Your reply is really surprise for me.Because uptill now I have observed only "useless and baseless " argumentation and Mazhar is one example. -
bravo rotfl yay
I appreciate your courage to accept the facts.
Your reply is really surprise for me.Because uptill now I have observed only "useless and baseless " argumentation and Mazhar is one example.Some don't view people in the lens of black/white, us/them )
Each individual has their own beliefs/level of understanding
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Some don't view people in the lens of black/white, us/them
Each individual has their own beliefs/level of understanding
I think Progod's analysis about quranist's arabic knowing is absolutely correct.The only word he needs to change is "some".It should be replaced by "majority".
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"What you are saying is like saying the phrase 'two gods' or ilaahaini in Arabic doesn't exist"{Propgod}
Here is the point which some people including you on the forum are not appreciating. Yes there are "two gods" that is why there is a valid word Ilahain. Zoroastrians believe in the concept of two gods, two entities. Similarly people have Ilaha more than two therefore there is a valid plural of Ilaha. Concept and fact is behind these words to give them sanctity. There is no fact and concept behind the so called word "Qiblatain" {dual of Qiblatun} therefore this is mere utterence of mouth, not valid word. The Ayah pasted by me earlier is on the screen. Kindly look into that from different angles, perspectives, grammer etc and give me translation in a manner that uses dual and plural of word Qiblata and then find your self the funnyness in that translation.
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"What you are saying is like saying the phrase 'two gods' or ilaahaini in Arabic doesn't exist"{Propgod}
Here is the point which some people including you on the forum are not appreciating. Yes there are "two gods" that is why there is a valid word Ilahain. Zoroastrians believe in the concept of two gods, two entities. Similarly people have Ilaha more than two therefore there is a valid plural of Ilaha. Concept and fact is behind these words to give them sanctity. There is no fact and concept behind the so called word "Qiblatain" {dual of Qiblatun} therefore this is mere utterence of mouth, not valid word. The Ayah pasted by me earlier is on the screen. Kindly look into that from different angles, perspectives, grammer etc and give me translation in a manner that uses dual and plural of word Qiblata and then find your self the funnyness in that translation.
Why do you not believe progod in that your arabic is extremely weak.Is there any harm in brushing it up so that in future you do not commit such "PEARLS"
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Please attend to the question, it is not regarding weak or strong understanding of Arabic. A simple fact that a word must have fact and perception behind it to sanctify it, otherwise it is nothing but scum. Do you think "Leoxyz" should be considered as a bonafide "word"? Only Leo is a proper word. Propgod has not as yet challenged and guided me on many threads where I have said that the meanings and perceptions assigned hitherto are not in consonance with the perception given by the Quran to particular words. But you seem to treat this forum as if you are on Orkut.
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Mazhar,
Are Zoroastrian concepts of gods presented in the Quran? Is the Zoroastrian belief in two gods some how more true than some Sunni Sect's belief in two directions of prayer, or two points of convening? Now you are comparing two beliefs that are both not found in the Quran but giving one more merit than the other. Do you give Zoraostrian belief more validity than Sunni belief, and why is that? Are you Persian, or do you identify with persians? Becuase here is where you killed your argument and showed a bias that only you and God can deal with. You are fixed on believing what you will believe and justifyiing it in anyway. If you think Zoraostrians' two gods are some how more Quranic than Sunnis two qiblahs, then you have got a problem that you really need to fix on your own. I hope you can think through this issue with some logic and get a better hold of language and Arabic and give up this idea that you have as it is just not correct.
Godbless,
AnwarLeonyx,
Despite your bias against Quranists, if you are talking about free-minders then I'm sad to say that I have to agree with you. Many Quranists, especially here on Free-minds, have very weak Arabic and very strong wills to go against the grain of traditional Islam and traditional understandings of the Quran (whether they are grammatically correct or incorrect seems to make little difference to people who do not even want to study grammar). This leads to some very imaginitive ideas about Arabic (not based on any grammar at all) presented by people who are determined to make them facts, to go against the traditional Islamic system (in this case the islamic version of THE MAN), seemingly all in some great spirit of rebellion and mistrust instead of a search for truth and knowledge. So although I think your generalization of all Quranists is incorrect I definitely agree that I have also seen this oversweeping trend especially in the free-minds circle. It hink the Muslim wakeup forums is just as bad or worse in this area. There is a difference between meaning a modernist, western or liberal Muslim than being a Quranist Muslim however, many have not understood that.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Are Zoroastrian concepts of gods presented in the Quran? Is the Zoroastrian belief in two gods some how more true than some Sunni Sect's belief in two directions of prayer, or two points of convening? Now you are comparing two beliefs that are both not found in the Quran but giving one more merit than the other.{Propgod}
I am dismayed by such a poor understanding/knowledge of Quran by a person who is trying to establish a community/city in the name of Quran. Not only Zoroastrians but a sect of Christians also believes in other than Allah.
{Refer 5116}
{Refer 1651}But an individual can face only one direction/confront only one Qiblata
It is time honoured history of the majority of traditionalists and modernists that they want to run away from the Book. They are the two sides of the same coin. From Noah alaihisalam to the Last Messenger, everyone asked people to listen to the revealed Book and not to their own perceptions/thoughts and stories concocted by the people. When the messenger is present amongst people both traditionalists and modernists join hands to keep people, under their influence, away from the Book. And after the departure of the Messenger they apparently quarrel but from within they are one and the same.
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mashrukayni and maghrubayni, what about those? (5517)
There are no "Two Easts" or such, or does Arabic have a completely different system?
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mahrukayni and maghrubayni, what about those? (5517)
There are no "Two Easts" or such, or does Arabic have a completely different system?
If there are "worlds", why not two easts and two wests? In Arabic we use the expression "Easts and wests of earth". How I understand Mazhar's point is as such, if the qur'aan did not mention two easts or two wests, for example, this expression would not acceptable. In other words, the existance of an (odd) expression in the qur'aan gives it legitmacy; an odd expression that's not in the qur'aan is fabricated.
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If there are "worlds", why not two easts and two wests? In Arabic we use the expression "Easts and wests of earth". How I understand Mazhar's point is as such, if the qur'aan did not mention two easts or two wests, for example, this expression would not acceptable. In other words, the existance of an (odd) expression in the qur'aan gives it legitmacy; an odd expression that's not in the qur'aan is fabricated.
Worlds is legitimate, there are a zillion of these things called "worlds" that 6th century Arabs would (or may) have percieved as all-encompassing.
It's a question, not a challenge. Enlighten me. Easts and Wests of Earth? In English we have "four corners of the Earth". Same connotations.
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? Reply #114 on Yesterday at 055543 PM ? Quote
Okay. So let's go with rabbain, shamsain, qamarain. I haven't checked but i don't think you will find these words in the Quran. My point still stands.{Propgod}
Brother Anwar,
Thank Allah that Leoxyz has not as yet called it "diamonds and pearls". I recall that I had read somewhere that there is no dual and plural of "Shams" {sun}. And perhaps so would be the case with Qamr {moon}. Perhaps 7115-16 may clarify the point.