Can it be proved that "Qiblatain" is an Arabic word?
-
Am I right now to conclude, on the above analogy, that the "word" ?? or ?? are not the actual words since they neither exist in the Quran nor in what is called ?Classical Arabic? or would brother OPF bring for us these two also from some link?
The word is present in the Holy Quran.If its derived dual form is not present in the Holy Quran then how can you infer that it is not a word of "Classical Arabic"
What a classical approach!!! -
Dear Leoxyz,
Here is typical style of many people. They take out a sentence from the statement of Quran and then start a chain of arguments and stories about that. It is an accepted principal of studying any book, law, enactyment, judgment of the court that no sentence will be taken out of the body of the text and read seperately since a sentence read independently may reflect a perception totally different from the one it reflects while placed inside the whole body of the statement.
What I said was in relation to another two quotes one from Brother Anwar and the other from Sister Samia. What ever you have been arguing with Anwar in relation to "anqatala", here you are taking an opposite direction. Now you try to show me the word "Qiblatain" or "Qiblataan" anywhere in the world. I earlier called it a fabricated word; fabricated only to support the imaginative stories spread by people saying Qiblata was changed.
-
Dear Leoxyz,
Here is typical style of many people. They take out a sentence from the statement of Quran and then start a chain of arguments and stories about that. It is an accepted principal of studying any book, law, enactyment, judgment of the court that no sentence will be taken out of the body of the text and read seperately since a sentence read independently may reflect a perception totally different from the one it reflects while placed inside the whole body of the statement.
What I said was in relation to another two quotes one from Brother Anwar and the other from Sister Samia. What ever you have been arguing with Anwar in relation to "anqatala", here you are taking an opposite direction. Now you try to show me the word "Qiblatain" or "Qiblataan" anywhere in the world. I earlier called it a fabricated word; fabricated only to support the imaginative stories spread by people saying Qiblata was changed.
Dear Mazhar ;
If you are saying that dual form of this word is fabricated it automatically implies that you are saying its primary word which is Qiblatun is fabricated .
In case the word Qiblatun is present in the classical arabic then its derivative are also possible whether present in the Quran or not. -
Meh.
-
Dear Leoxyz,
By the way who told you that if there is a word, its dual and plural must exist whether or not quoted in the Quran? I never expected such a statement from a knowledgable person like you.
No surprise .
When your "leader " can say that "ma3toof/ma3toof alai" can have different "i3raab",so anything can happen from you dear. -
Dear Leoxyz,
By the way who told you that if there is a word, its dual and plural must exist whether or not quoted in the Quran? I never expected such a statement from a knowledgable person like you.
Dear Brother that is question of just elementary knowledge of Arabic which probably you are lacking.Anyhow here is the reference.
- ( 2 / 412)
...
( * )Another one
- ( 1 / 2332)
Last but not least
I am not a learned person in this field.Neither it is my profession.
I am just a learner at a priliminary stage. -
Dear Brother that is question of just elementary knowledge of Arabic which probably you are lacking.Anyhow here is the reference.
- ( 2 / 412)
...
( * )Another one
- ( 1 / 2332)
Last but not least
I am not a learned person in this field.Neither it is my profession.
I am just a learner at a priliminary stage.The quote from taajul 3arous is about "qabeelataintwo tribes" not qiblatain. Either you missed the "yaa" of the first one while colouring it or it is a typo in the dictionary. The second one is correctly spelled.
The poem line in lisaanul 3arab does not talk about "qibla direction of salaat". Neither the houses of "bani tameem" nor "almadeena" are "qibla" of salaat. Other words such as "qubla" and "qabla" are written in the same way with different vocalization. The one you cited is not vocalized because it is not the main entry, so you can't confim what it is. But it is NOT qibla of salaat, which mazhar is talking about.
I think you started searching under qibla (which would be the normal procedure) and you found nothing. Dictionaries normally give the noun and its plural (especially for broken plurals), but for "qiblaa=direction for salaat" lisaanul 3arab does not give any plural, yet it gave the different plurals for other words in this entry.
-
The quote from taajul 3arous is about "qabeelataintwo tribes" not qiblatain. Either you missed the "yaa" of the first one while colouring it or it is a typo in the dictionary. The second one is correctly spelled.
The poem line in lisaanul 3arab does not talk about "qibla direction of salaat". Neither the houses of "bani tameem" nor "almadeena" are "qibla" of salaat. Other words such as "qubla" and "qabla" are written in the same way with different vocalization. The one you cited is not vocalized because it is not the main entry, so you can't confim what it is. But it is NOT qibla of salaat, which mazhar is talking about.
I think you started searching under qibla (which would be the normal procedure) and you found nothing. Dictionaries normally give the noun and its plural (especially for broken plurals), but for "qiblaa=direction for salaat" lisaanul 3arab does not give any plural, yet it gave the different plurals for other words in this entry.
Dear elder sister.
His concern was not 'salaat Qibla" rather his concern was that "Qiblatain " or Qiblataan" (these dual forms) are fabricated and these have never been used in classical arabic.Please read the whole thread carefully.
Qiblatun is present in Quran.
Lisan ul arab has used this dual form
As far as Tajul-aroos is concerned first is the dual form of qiblatun while the second one you are right is qabilatain
So dual forms of " Qibla" are present in both Lisan and Taj.
Lisan =qiblatain
Taj = qiblataan
What does your Lisan ul Arb say ?This what he was saying
Post 1
Am I right now to conclude, on the above analogy, that the "word" ?? or ?? are not the actual words since they neither exist in the Quran nor in what is called ?Classical Arabic? or would brother OPF bring for us these two also from some link?Post=2
Now you try to show me the word "Qiblatain" or "Qiblataan" anywhere in the world. I earlier called it a fabricated word; fabricated only to support the imaginative stories spread by people saying Qiblata was changed.
]
Post 3
By the way who told you that if there is a word, its dual and plural must exist whether or not quoted in the Quran? -
My point throughout discussion on this forum on all the threads is simply this that a word conveys a concept/thought/perception and on the back of the word there must be a fact present, otherwise that is just a assertion from the mouth of somebody whether he is a scholar, a lexicon writer or translator of Quran or a whorshipper of idols whom he assigns imaginaryy names. Quran says these are just utterences of thier mouth, void of any fact and substance.
This thread is regarding the Qiblata, Kaaba. Kaaba is a tangible, perceiveable, touchable, seeable thing. One Qibalata is that of Christians, and one that of Jews. I had earlier said, agreeing with Anwar, that a person could be "Dholqirnain", but a person can't be "Dhul qiblatain", this is because we suffer from impracticability of seeing/confronting two opposite directions at the same time.
And lastly my emphasis is that the Root " " in the Quran conveys the perception/concept of being face to face, confronting each other and not "direction". This root " " indicates the relationship of two, while the word "direction" could be used independent of reflecting its relationship with somebody or something.
Allah is One, there is no dual of this word, name. Ar Rehman is one, it is a name, there is no dual and plural of it, Muhammad is a name, there is no dual and plural of it,
Kaaba is One, it is name of a house, there is no dual and plural of it.lKaaba is Qiblatan, Qiblatan is a place for the visit, stay of people; it is one and only one, there is no dual and plural of it.
-
My point throughout discussion on this forum on all the threads is simply this that a word conveys a concept/thought/perception and on the back of the word there must be a fact present, otherwise that is just a assertion from the mouth of somebody whether he is a scholar, a lexicon writer or translator of Quran or a whorshipper of idols whom he assigns imaginaryy names. Quran says these are just utterences of thier mouth, void of any fact and substance.
This thread is regarding the Qiblata, Kaaba. Kaaba is a tangible, perceiveable, touchable, seeable thing. One Qibalata is that of Christians, and one that of Jews. I had earlier said, agreeing with Anwar, that a person could be "Dholqirnain", but a person can't be "Dhul qiblatain", this is because we suffer from impracticability of seeing/confronting two opposite directions at the same time.
And lastly my emphasis is that the Root " " in the Quran conveys the perception/concept of being face to face, confronting each other and not "direction". This root " " indicates the relationship of two, while the word "direction" could be used independent of reflecting its relationship with somebody or something.
Allah is One, there is no dual of this word, name. Ar Rehman is one, it is a name, there is no dual and plural of it, Muhammad is a name, there is no dual and plural of it,
Kaaba is One, it is name of a house, there is no dual and plural of it.lKaaba is Qiblatan, Qiblatan is a place for the visit, stay of people; it is one and only one, there is no dual and plural of it.
Dear ;
now you are changing your statement
Are these yoursAm I right now to conclude, on the above analogy, that the "word" or are not the actual words since they neither exist in the Quran nor in what is called Classical Arabic or would brother OPF bring for us these two also from some link?
Post=2Now you try to show me the word "Qiblatain" or "Qiblataan" anywhere in the world. I earlier called it a fabricated word; fabricated only to support the imaginative stories spread by people saying Qiblata was changed.
]
Post 3By the way who told you that if there is a word, its dual and plural must exist whether or not quoted in the Quran?
Recongnize them you were challenging that there is NO DUAL form
Who used these words Show me anywhere in the world ??
Was it you or someone else?Is it classical Quranist's somersault ???
I have given the proof
ONe from Lisan ul Arab
One from Taj ul Aroos -
One thing should by clear that I never associated myself with any group by whatever name they are introduced/or introduce themselves.
Dear Leoxyz, the major problem with the traditionalists and hadith/sayings, stories, gupshup/blablabla seekers is that they never consider the whole context of a thing and keep circling with parts of a statement and that too after taking it out from the main body of the statement.
Never should a thing be taken without reference to the context. You go out of the premises of the discussion. You are not attending to the substance contained in my post. This is the problem throughout human history, from the first established society of the nation of Noah alaihisalam todate that whenever a new thing is told they stick to forefathers and the like manner Lisanul Arab and taj al uroos etc. All men who wrote lexicons were a composite unit of inteligence and stupidites; why you forget this. There is a knowledgeable person on every knowledgeable person, is the basic fact which people all the time ignore; this verdict negates the wrong perception people have when they call "authority". None is authority; only the word of Quran is the authority since it is the word of Allah who is the ONLY ONE with absolute knowledge.
-
One thing should by clear that I never associated myself with any group by whatever name they are introduced/or introduce themselves.
Dear Leoxyz, the major problem with the traditionalists and hadith/sayings, stories, gupshup/blablabla seekers is that they never consider the whole context of a thing and keep circling with parts of a statement and that too after taking it out from the main body of the statement.
Never should a thing be taken without reference to the context. You go out of the premises of the discussion. You are not attending to the substance contained in my post. This is the problem throughout human history, from the first established society of the nation of Noah alaihisalam todate that whenever a new thing is told they stick to forefathers and the like manner Lisanul Arab and taj al uroos etc. All men who wrote lexicons were a composite unit of inteligence and stupidites; why you forget this. There is a knowledgeable person on every knowledgeable person, is the basic fact which people all the time ignore; this verdict negates the wrong perception people have when they call "authority". None is authority; only the word of Quran is the authority since it is the word of Allah who is the ONLY ONE with absolute knowledge.
Dear!
On the one hand you are getting meanings from Lane's lexicon and on the other hand you are calling them stupid.What a double standard again that of a "Quranist".
Honestly speaking not to discourage you ,you have to go a lot in arabic before trying to attempt Quran meanings.
For a doctor to do an operation ,there are many pre-requisites and same is the case with Qurnic interpretation.Imagine ,a person who is persistantly denying the duality of "qiblatun" for no reason and challenging it ,calling it as fabricated without any evidence is not obsessed ?
My younger brother! these are fundamentals of arabic.For Quranic interpretation you need a lot of knowledge.
All of the interpretation of "habl-ul - warid " is full of imaginations.No solid argument I could get in that one.This might be because of the fact that it was too scholarly to be understood and rationalized by an illiterate person like me.I admit my this weakness.
That is a good thing that you try to explain the Holy Quran but for God sake ,take pity on the Holy Quran.It is exactly like that an illiterate person starts doing the operation upon a patient.First of all, acquire proper depth of knowledge then there is no harm,taffakur /tabaddur is Quranic order.A group which does not know the difference to
-Give a book
-To teach a book
Or says that- ma3toof/ma3toof alai have different i3raab
or says
-there is no such word as "qiblataan/qiblatain
or interprets the Quran on
-may/may not basis
is the same from my point of view.At least I do not find the difference.
- ma3toof/ma3toof alai have different i3raab
-
On the one hand you are getting meanings from Lane's lexicon and on the other hand you are calling them stupid.{Leoxyz}
This is the problem while discussing with you. You take out one word and then start assigning meanings and inferences and conclusion of your choice. Everyone including you and me is a composite unit of intelligence and stupdities. If you think you are wholesome intelligence then I won't challenge it nor argue. What I said was this
This is the problem throughout human history, from the first established society of the nation of Noah alaihisalam todate that whenever a new thing is told they stick to forefathers and the like manner Lisanul Arab and taj al uroos etc. All men who wrote lexicons were a composite unit of inteligence and stupidites; why you forget this. There is a knowledgeable person on every knowledgeable person, is the basic fact which people all the time ignore; this verdict negates the wrong perception people have when they call "authority". None is authority; only the word of Quran is the authority since it is the word of Allah who is the ONLY ONE with absolute knowledge.
Except the Messengers of Allah who do not say a thing from their own perception, knowledge, understanding, as stated by Quran, other men combine in themselves intelligence, errors and stupidities. When we study people side by side their very intelligent show we find some stupid things too. I have intelligence but can't deny that at times my perceptions turn out to be quite stupid to myself what to say of others.
Quran is also for people of very low intellect like me. Therefore I never bothered to have a very deep knowledge of what you call classical arabic or thought or whatever. There are few articles posted by me where what is stated has not earlier been stated; please let me know in those articles the stupid things I have stated so that I may further read.
As for Lane is concerned, he did not devise meanings from his own intellect; he also took it from other lexicons and put/compiled it in English. Please find time to read his preface. And if you read some of the exegeses you will find that people have been saying sperms come from the bossoms of the women. This was the stupid part of those intelligent people.
-
This is the problem while discussing with you. You take out one word and then start assigning meanings and inferences and conclusion of your choice. Everyone including you and me is a composite unit of intelligence and stupdities. If you think you are wholesome intelligence then I won't challenge it nor argue. What I said was this
Except the Messengers of Allah who do not say a thing from their own perception, knowledge, understanding, as stated by Quran, other men combine in themselves intelligence, errors and stupidities. When we study people side by side their very intelligent show we find some stupid things too. I have intelligence but can't deny that at times my perceptions turn out to be quite stupid to myself what to say of others.
Quran is also for people of very low intellect like me. Therefore I never bothered to have a very deep knowledge of what you call classical arabic or thought or whatever. There are few articles posted by me where what is stated has not earlier been stated; please let me know in those articles the stupid things I have stated so that I may further read.
As for Lane is concerned, he did not devise meanings from his own intellect; he also took it from other lexicons and put/compiled it in English. Please find time to read his preface. And if you read some of the exegeses you will find that people have been saying sperms come from the bossoms of the women. This was the stupid part of those intelligent people.
Dear
Anyway I do not have that much knowledge as you have so feel nothing but to "SALAAM"
Best of luck -
Dear Leoxyz,
You insist that these are genuine words "Qiblatain " or Qiblataan" {dual and plural}. Please translate these "words" in simple Arabic and english/urdu, for my sake and understanding, highlighting the perception/idea/thought to be reflected by these words since words are meant only to convey perceptions.
-
Dear Leoxyz,
You insist that these are genuine words "Qiblatain " or Qiblataan" {dual and plural}. Please translate these "words" in simple Arabic and english/urdu, for my sake and understanding, highlighting the perception/idea/thought to be reflected by these words since words are meant only to convey perceptions.
If you do not know that much simple arabic from Lisaan or Taaj ,then why do you challenge that "qiblataan/bilatain " do not exist ??
Is this another Pearl ??
You spread the pearls/diamonds
I pick them up
Wakas issue me 'FIRST WARNING"
Why do you people are inclined to put me in trouble.I will be banned.
I request you to take "PITY" on me
Please do not spread PEARLS/DIAMONDS -
If Wakas has issued you a first warning, I have not seconded it/proposed/recommended. I believe in treating people not discarding them. This is the tradition of Hadith lover forums and hope Wakas will not follow it. Hadith lover forums do not tolerate even a question and ban people without notice. I hope, Leoxyz, you are getting me. I have noticed one difference on few other forums and this forum. Other forums ask for donations and run adds side by side. And remember one thing, where there will be Quran alone, there people will neither ask for funds nor anyone gives them the fund. Wherever there is a hadith lesson, money will invariably be involved. It is not me who is saying it, this is stated by Quran. I hope you know it.
A word must have a fact on its back otherwise it is a fabricated one, just scum, utterences of the mouth. It is a matter of primary knowledge; it does not need scholars to confirm it. Tell the perception conveyed by these two fabricated words and consider that perception if it could be called a rational one.
-
If Wakas has issued you a first warning, I have not seconded it/proposed/recommended. I believe in treating people not discarding them. This is the tradition of Hadith lover forums and hope Wakas will not follow it. Hadith lover forums do not tolerate even a question and ban people without notice. I hope, Leoxyz, you are getting me. I have noticed one difference on few other forums and this forum. Other forums ask for donations and run adds side by side. And remember one thing, where there will be Quran alone, there people will neither ask for funds nor anyone gives them the fund. Wherever there is a hadith lesson, money will invariably be involved. It is not me who is saying it, this is stated by Quran. I hope you know it.
A word must have a fact on its back otherwise it is a fabricated one, just scum, utterences of the mouth. It is a matter of primary knowledge; it does not need scholars to confirm it. Tell the perception conveyed by these two fabricated words and consider that perception if it could be called a rational one.
Have you accepted that "qiblataan/qiblatain ' do exist and you have repented on you fault ??
The only way you can stop my banning is to stop posting PEARLS/DIAMONDS so that I need not pick them up.
When I see such Peals ,my mind starts getting upset.
Can you make me a favor for not posting such posts ;My brotherly request