Hitting One's Wife.
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I will have to check. However, clearly God commands, not prohibits a man to daraba his wife.
There is no need to cover up the word 'beat' but using 'daraba' as if to find it "true" meaning. PM loves to do that. The verse is clear. God prohibits you from beating you wife in a wise way. Think about it, God uses that specific word if to discourage you from doing it. He could have use mean, aggressive, harsh etc. He specifically use 'beat' to discourage you ofrom doing it, GOD does not shy away from the truth (3353).
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In 434, the husband is commanded to beat his wife as a last resort, but then if the wife had already been disloyal/unfaithful, then she being the adulteress must also be lashed a 100 times as per 242 along with the adulterer. Hmmm, double punishment. Now what happens if she continues to disobey her husband even after she is beaten up???
Ahem! if she is still alive after being lashed or beaten up, then perhaps either marry her off to the adulterer or an idolworshipper Huh? (243) or lock her up until death do her apart (415). Go figure!
These are issue indeed. but like I said, context.
415
Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.I have a simply explanation for this verses. If there are FOUR witnesses of a person committing adultery, that person must be a porn star. Do you want to marry a porn star? Yeah I think don't so.
243
The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.Once again, if a person is CONVICTED of adultery, that mean FOUR PEOPLE witness that act....a porn star. God want the best for his believer, especially when it comes to spouses. So it make sense that a adultrer will not be allow the best within his creation (987). Do you want to marry a porn star? Yeah I think don't so.
many are focusing on the punishment, but before the punish GOD makes it difficult to accuse and prosecute a person of the crime. Just like the prosecution of a murderer. This is the mercy from GOD. Equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder, but it is difficult to fulfill that requirement.
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There is no need to cover up the word 'beat' but using 'daraba' as if to find it "true" meaning. PM loves to do that. The verse is clear. God prohibits you from beating you wife in a wise way. Think about it, God uses that specific word if to discourage you from doing it. He could have use mean, aggressive, harsh etc. He specifically use 'beat' to discourage you ofrom doing it, GOD does not shy away from the truth (3353).
Alright, God commands, not prohibits, a man to beat his wife.
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There is no need to cover up the word 'beat' but using 'daraba' as if to find it "true" meaning. PM loves to do that.
Peace,
It's such a horrible thing to do, you know... finding the true meaning...
The verse is clear. God prohibits you from beating you wife in a wise way. Think about it, God uses that specific word if to discourage you from doing it. He could have use mean, aggressive, harsh etc. He specifically use 'beat' to discourage you ofrom doing it
Are you serious?
So if it said 'kill them' it would've meant 'not to kill them' huh? By your logic, yes.
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It's such a horrible thing to do, you know... finding the true meaning...
This strategy of making nouns out of Arabic words it not about finding the truth, but covering it up. It is a tactic that mainstream muslin and PM do. The Arabic language is not a "super divine special unique cool extraordinary" language. It a just the language that God choose simply because Muhammad people spoke it at the time (433).
We need to stop thinking that the wisdom of the Quran is lock within a "language".
Are you serious?
So if it said 'kill them' it would've meant 'not to kill them' huh? By your logic, yes.Please read my previous posting carefully.......as an analogy, if it says before you 'kill them' go to court, the police, the another country, jump a bridge, dance on a car, build a building, then 'kill them', are you really being commanded you to 'kill them'? Think.
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This strategy of making nouns out of Arabic words it not about finding the truth, but covering it up. It is a tactic that mainstream muslin and PM do. The Arabic language is not a "super divine special unique cool extraordinary" language. It a just the language that God choose simply because Muhammad people spoke it at the time (433).
We need to stop thinking that the wisdom of the Quran is lock within a "language".
Please read my previous posting carefully.......as an analogy, if it says before you 'kill them' go to court, the police, the another country, jump a bridge, dance on a car, build a building, then 'kill them', are you really being commanded you to 'kill them'? Think.26199 - It would have been rejected wholesale if it wasn't Arabic.
413 then 4144 - It is Arabic so that it can be made distinct/explained in detail.
Please read my previous posting carefully.......as an analogy, if it says before you 'kill them' go to court, the police, the another country, jump a bridge, dance on a car, build a building, then 'kill them', are you really being commanded you to 'kill them'? Think.
Please do not beat around the bush and conceal truth. If it genuinely says "beat", it means beat - PERIOD. Anything other than that is distortion of the text. Even if there are a million steps, it still commands beating.
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Please read my previous posting carefully.......as an analogy, if it says before you 'kill them' go to court, the police, the another country, jump a bridge, dance on a car, build a building, then 'kill them', are you really being commanded you to 'kill them'?
Peace,
First, I am aware of this argument (RK) and I did read your post again. Yes, it still would say KILL THEM. So if the courts fail me, the police fails me (happens a lot), i am allowed to kill the person then eh? You really are hurting your credibility with this argument. Even if it was a last resort YOU WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BEAT THEM. There's no dancing around this.
This strategy of making nouns out of Arabic words it not about finding the truth, but covering it up. It is a tactic that mainstream muslin and PM do.
Again, cite specific examples, this is just 'hadeeth'.
First, you say that PM is anti-traditionalist, now that you say that they have tactics in common. Which is it?
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Very good my friend.Zinda baad
Now you are on right path.Remembe no one is above Deen.You use the more correct term.
The Quran tamperer have to be pinned down.
handshakeIn addition to my previous post
4112 ( )
And whoever commits a fault or a sin, then accuses of it one innocent, he indeed takes upon himself the burden of a calumny and a manifest sin. -
26199 - It would have been rejected wholesale if it wasn't Arabic.
Be logical OPF, if an alien delivered a book to you in a alien language from another planet, you will not understand it. That is what is meant by this verse 26198-199. The verse DOESNT make Arabic the "super cool divine" language. Arabic is not that special. Maybe it your mother tongue, but God is efficient, and choose what is best for the community at the time (433,2619
413 then 4144 - It is Arabic so that it can be made distinct/explained in detail.
like i said, making arabic a "special" is about covering up the truth. OPF, read the verse carefully
Khalifa
If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway.""Progressive Muslims"
And had We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic or Arabic, say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away"The language (arabic) of the Quran is IRRELVANT when it comes to the wisdom and guidance of the Quran. To my Arabic speaking brothers and sister, the Arabic language is not a special language, it not a ?divine? language.
Please do not beat around the bush and conceal truth. If it genuinely says "beat", it means beat - PERIOD. Anything other than that is distortion of the text. Even if there are a million steps, it still commands beating.
I agree. I encourage not to use the word "daraba" to stress this point. The Quran prohibits you from beating you wife because of the steps you must take first.
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Be logical OPF, if an alien delivered a book to you in a alien language from another planet, you will not understand it. That is what is meant by this verse 26198-199. The verse DOESNT make Arabic the "super cool divine" language. Arabic is not that special. Maybe it your mother tongue, but God is efficient, and choose what is best for the community at the time (433,2619
like i said, making arabic a "special" is about covering up the truth. OPF, read the verse carefullyKhalifa
If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway.""Progressive Muslims"
And had We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic or Arabic, say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away"The language (arabic) of the Quran is IRRELVANT when it comes to the wisdom and guidance of the Quran. To my Arabic speaking brothers and sister, the Arabic language is not a special language, it not a divine language.
Please do not beat around the bush and conceal truth. If it genuinely says "beat", it means beat - PERIOD. Anything other than that is distortion of the text. Even if there are a million steps, it still commands beating.I agree. I encourage not to use the word "daraba" to stress this point. The Quran prohibits you from beating you wife because of the steps you must take first.
Arabic is nowhere near my mother tongue, I would call it an alien language. More so what I mean is the clear meanings & grammar that can be had from the Arab text. I agree, it is not a "special tongue" because then Aramaic and Hebrew would be equally special.
As for the verse, may you also read it carefully. There is a connection between the language and the clarity/detail.
I agree. I encourage not to use the word "daraba" to stress this point. The Quran prohibits you from beating you wife because of the steps you must take first.
No, it does not prohibit but allow it when all the steps are exhausted, as they can be in a long, and turmoiled marriage.
Aside from you, who have so far addressed my question, can anyone else (especially Ahl-Hadeeth) say why there is a discrepancy in punishments? What is the crime of "nushuz" and why is it "fear"? Does God say "if you fear adultery, bring 4 witnesses and lash 100x"?
Please keep in mind 545.
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There is one question I would like to ask (in fact I mentioned it before) - why is it that for 1400 years all the scholars, agreed that this verse refers to physical chastisement?
And there are hadith of the prophet limiting the type of hitting (i.e not severe) and there are narrations from the companions about it also.
Didn't the Prophet, companions and all the scholars and Muslims over 1400 understand the Qur'an properly?
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There is one question I would like to ask (in fact I mentioned it before) - why is it that for 1400 years all the scholars, agreed that this verse refers to physical chastisement?
And there are hadith of the prophet limiting the type of hitting (i.e not severe) and there are narrations from the companions about it also.
Didn't the Prophet, companions and all the scholars and Muslims over 1400 understand the Qur'an properly?
Please show me a source that is not based on hearsay (X said that Y said that Z said that, etc) and conjecture (X did not decieve Y, so X must be truthful) and that would stand up as evidence in court.
Just, please. Please show me where you have verified this period to be 1400 years as well. Detailed references are a must.
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peace
There is one question I would like to ask (in fact I mentioned it before) - why is it that for 1400 years all the scholars, agreed that this verse refers to physical chastisement?
As OPF has pointed out before, if we are going to anoint credibility to 1400 years of scholarly 'islamic' opinions, why not 3000 years of christian and jewish scholarly opinions?
Good to see you're still here.
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Please show me a source that is not based on hearsay (X said that Y said that Z said that, etc) and conjecture (X did not decieve Y, so X must be truthful) and that would stand up as evidence in court.
Just, please. Please show me where you have verified this period to be 1400 years as well. Detailed references are a must.
Dear OPF
His question and objection is pretty valid.
First it should be established whether the Holy Prophet (PBUH) who received revelation directly, and his companions who were directly under his supervision ,did understand the meanings of the Holy Quran or not.
If it is established that they could not uderstand ,then it is ok.
But if it is established that they understood ,then the very next question arises where is that teaching.Is it reliably available or not?If you move in this sequence ,then the problem will be solved.
If you will catch the things in between then there is more confusion rather clarification. -
There is a connection between the language and the clarity/detail.
there is no connection with arabic and the koran. The clarity have to do with the fact that the people SPOKE arabic (muhammed and his community spoke arabic). it is that simply. It not because arabic is some how "more detailed" that any other language.
No, it does not prohibit but allow it when all the steps are exhausted, as they can be in a long, and turmoiled marriage.
i understand your point, but i think it discourage it (beating wife) due to the steps. It doesn't say explicitly 'dont beat' your wife, but I think that is what is being communicated clearly yet indirectly with wisdom.
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Peace SHM,
First, I don't claim arabic as God's language or any of that nonsense. But, Arabic is a very detailed language. And that is very important for laws, punishments etc... Short example It has specific names for your mom's brother or your dad's brother. In English, it's the same word uncle.
I do agree that ONE of the reasons quran is in arabic is because of Muhammad's spoken language.
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DArgento,
First, I am aware of this argument (RK) and I did read your post again. Yes, it still would say KILL THEM. So if the courts fail me, the police fails me (happens a lot), i am allowed to kill the person then eh? You really are hurting your credibility with this argument. Even if it was a last resort YOU WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BEAT THEM. There's no dancing around this.
Am not dancing around it. The verse says what it says, however, in context to the other verses in the Quran, do you really think God will encourage a man to beat is wife. Its that simply. In context of the ENTIRE Quran, it is clear the verse beating of the wife is prohibit/discouraged. That is my point. People are isolating the verse by itself ignore the fact that GOD deliver a 114 chapter book and all verses should be read in context.
When you read the other verses I cited previous, it makes sense that GOD prohibits/discourage beating of the wife. So when you read the verse in context, it true understanding is reached.
Again, cite specific examples, this is just 'hadeeth'.
First, you say that PM is anti-traditionalist, now that you say that they have tactics in common. Which is it?PM is anti-traditional but they use the same tactic as ?traditional? muslin. The tactic is to disguise the truth by making nouns of Arabic words. OPF did it with ?beat? as if to say the words ?true? meaning needs to be found. PM do it with sure 74 and Saqar etc.
I not making this up. This is a tactic. Basically to confuse a situation or kick dust, nouns will be made from the Arabic words try to delude people that the true meaning needs to be found.
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There is one question I would like to ask (in fact I mentioned it before) - why is it that for 1400 years all the scholars, agreed that this verse refers to physical chastisement?
And there are hadith of the prophet limiting the type of hitting (i.e not severe) and there are narrations from the companions about it also.
Didn't the Prophet, companions and all the scholars and Muslims over 1400 understand the Qur'an properly?Mistakes and misinterpretation base on limit knowledge and understand. For example, to this day, people still think sura 74 is about hell and not the Quran miracle.
I think Muhammad understood the verse clearly, because even if we assume and examine past narrations attributed to him as authentic, he command his companions to use a object similar to a tooth 'brush' to beat your wife when implementing this verse. Think about that, how effect is a little tooth brush to beat anyone. It is clear he (assuming the hadeeth is true) understand that the verse discourage beating the wife.
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Peace,
do you really think God will encourage a man to beat is wife.
Nope. As Tay has pointed out (paraphrasing) If being a muslim means to be peaceful (end of paraphrase). How can beating your wife be peaceful? We have two options here a) quran is not God's unconditional word b) it doesn't mean 'beat'.
Of course, we must be objective in our approach to reach the truth.
Its that simply. In context of the ENTIRE Quran, it is clear the verse beating of the wife is prohibit/discouraged.
Presuming it means beat. But if it does, you could sell 'discouraged' but 'prohibit' no way.
That is my point. People are isolating the verse by itself ignore the fact that GOD deliver a 114 chapter book and all verses should be read in context.
It absoulutely should be cross-referenced and read in context. You are assuming that hasn't been done here. It has, in multiple threads. Maybe not so much in this one. This issue has been 'beat' to death. Ah, coincidental pun.
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First, I don't claim arabic as God's language or any of that nonsense. But, Arabic is a very detailed language. And that is very important for laws, punishments etc... Short example It has specific names for your mom's brother or your dad's brother. In English, it's the same word uncle.
Arabic is EFFICIENT, yes, but not very detailed. English can be just as detailed as Arabic, but not with the same efficiency. Plus GOD said the only reason he deliver the Quran in Arabic is because Muhammad and his community spoke that language (4144).
4144
If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language (clear)?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."I do agree that ONE of the reasons quran is in arabic is because of Muhammad's spoken language.
Muhammad's (and his community) spoken language is the ONLY reason supported in the Quran. It not me saying this, the Quran said that. The Arabic language is not divine or special with regards to the Quran.