Are Progressive Muslims Demolishing Islam?
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so you are still a sunni
I like your signature
People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; forgive them anyway
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I like your signature
People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; forgive them anyway
You do not have to follow the Sunni idealogy to retain the Sunni mindset and perceptions.
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You do not have to follow the Sunni idealogy to retain the Sunni mindset and perceptions. )
Are Sunnis the enemy here?
I'm actually gaining a bit of respect for them lol
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Which part?.. the blowing stuff up?
lol... nope
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Are Sunnis the enemy here?
I'm actually gaining a bit of respect for them lol
People are not the enemy, falsehood is the enemy. Specifically why I said idealogy and mindset.
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Peace
Zakat is clearly not meant as a 2.5% tax or whatever amount of percentage you want if you read it's use in the quran. Denying tradition is one's right, tradition is not something one has to follow, but there are certainly elements of tradition (whatever that one might be) that can fit right in with God's system.
Joe
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cosmicdancer,
It seems to me that many of those here have subconciously already left Islam - but are still so emotionally attached, that they have created an Islam that is not Islam, so they can do what they want, yet still pretend to be Muslims.
You speak truth in that statement. I believe many have already subconsciously left Islam and are trying to create a new religion to please their desire and emotions.
This is evident in the fact the many of PM members were once submitters and abandon it. It will not surprise me that they soon may abandon PM as well.
Nadeem,
I agree that any kind of rejection shouldn't be as easy as asking "is it traditional?"; but can you blame any one of us, who have been abused by the tradition you speak of, for trying to create some distance between ourselves and it? That we are skeptical of it? That we resist it stronger than before, as we have learnt the consequence of blindly following its lead?
3918
They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.Many within PM do not apply this verse above. The blindly reject anything traditional. I completely understand the insecurity and fear of blindly accepting anything or being cautious about the tradition view point. But that is totally different than attacking it without reason and trying youre very best to destroy elements of the religion that dates way before the Quran delivery.
To assume that anything that is considered tradition or even prehistoric and primitive is not submission or righteous is illogical. It is my personal belief the many in PM are simply just trying to reinvent for reinvent sake without just cause.
TheNabi,
Zakat is clearly not meant as a 2.5% tax or whatever amount of percentage you want if you read it's use in the quran. Denying tradition is one's right, tradition is not something one has to follow, but there are certainly elements of tradition (whatever that one might be) that can fit right in with God's system.
There is a universal consensus that zakat is 2.5%. It doesn't mean you have to pay that exact amount but it is consider the minimum you can give. Are you saying just because it is not explicitly mention as that amount in the Quran mean it is not true? This is illogical thinking. The tradition of giving mandatory charity (zakat) date before the Koran and it still practice by Christians today (10% in some churches I think). Since the Quran DOES NOT explicitly give an amount, there is no harm with the universal consensus of 2.5%. Techinically, 2.5% of ones net income can be considered 'excess' because it is truly a small amount.
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When charity is spoken of in the quran, the word zakat has not been the one used.
this is exactly what im talking about. zakat is traditionally and universally understood as mandatory charity. but since this is a traditional understanding, people like to throw dust on the term like saying "well zakat doesnt literally mean charity" or "salat doesnt literally mean prayer" etc etc.
Yet these same individuals can't present solid evidence against it these classical definitions.
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Peace
Definitions can be stretched and words can take on newer meanings. Gandhi wrote about how the words yajna/sacrifice referred to animals sacrifices, but its use in the Gita gives no implication that it is referring to animal sacrifice. I'm not saying that zakat does not mean charity, but it's context and use is not in that sense at all.
Joe
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Peace,
Yes, 'they' are destroying a man-made, idolatrous, nonsensical, superstitious religion known today as 'Islam.'
What, the 0.000001% of people who understand the difference between Islam and 'Islam'? I think we need a better idea of context here. Having said this, the Sunni/Shia types will always misrepresent what we say/believe for many obvious reasons.
Peace
Roshan
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Salaam all,
No PM will not damage Islam. Islam has survived for 1400 years because it has the mechanisms of survival for long periods. Islam was challenged by much worse than PM and it always comes out on top. PM however will only destroy itself. That is what false movements do.
Cosmicdancer seems to have hit a raw nerve. He is however wrong. I believe that he and many of the people here are people who only see black or white but not much in between and both have a problem questioning their own "logic". Cosmicdancer sees things that are "illogical" and then rejects the whole message. The others see something that is compelling and follow the message. That is great. However, when they see what seems "illogical" to them then they suppress it or manipulate it. The truth of humanity however, is that our "logic" is not always logical. The other truth is that the message is compelling enough that a person will have to question his logic often, even when "his logic" seems go against the message. It is true that one can question the understanding, but one has to accept that sometimes the message is against his logic and he has to let his logic submit. This is the Job of Taqwa= consciousness and Iman= safety in the message.
Take care all
Hussein
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this is exactly what im talking about. zakat is traditionally and universally understood as mandatory charity. but since this is a traditional understanding, people like to throw dust on the term like saying "well zakat doesnt literally mean charity" or "salat doesnt literally mean prayer" etc etc.
Yet these same individuals can't present solid evidence against it these classical definitions.
Peace
Perhaps you should read the relevent threads........
In fact, there is an argument that the Sunnis, Shias cannot present Quranic evidence to match their beliefs which is why they always scream, 'how can you do salat without the hadith' arguments.
The problem with the thread is that it is not based in anything specific and as a result you are having to use broad generalisations.
At the end of the day it is about the Quran and nothing else.
Roshan
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Peace
Perhaps you should read the relevent threads........
In fact, there is an argument that the Sunnis, Shias cannot present Quranic evidence to match their beliefs which is why they always scream, 'how can you do salat without the hadith' arguments.
The problem with the thread is that it is not based in anything specific and as a result you are having to use broad generalisations.
At the end of the day it is about the Quran and nothing else.
Roshan
bravo
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peace
this is exactly what im talking about. zakat is traditionally and universally understood as mandatory charity. but since this is a traditional understanding, people like to throw dust on the term like saying "well zakat doesnt literally mean charity" or "salat doesnt literally mean prayer" etc etc.
While it's illogical to completely dismiss something just because it's traditional; the opposite is also true. You can't just accept something because it's traditional. Especially when the fairy-tales are cited as sources.
And just because it's traditional doesn't make it right, what does al-quran say about the majority again. Need I remind you? What did Abraham's father say to Abraham? Whose footsteps was he following?
You obviously have a hate for PM/FM, which is veiling you from seeing things from an objective point of view. Me, I only have an affiliation to the truth. If FM/PM is wrong in a particular case, I will have no problem voicing that opinion.
There is a universal consensus that zakat is 2.5%.
Idol-worship is also a universal concept, can we do that too?
And please cite the quranic verse that says 2.5%.
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I understand, but what if there a elements with sunnism for example that a true and indeed the way of submission (islam). People who subjectively and blatantly attack those elements simply because the are considered traditional or sunnism would be demolishing Islam to a degree. Do you really believe that every aspect of the traditional view of Islam has no justification? I think PM should be more logical in there approach.
Obviously there are elements within sunnism that are true.. I mean, hadeeth-free islam and sunnism have much incommon, they are not totally and entirely different.. they are both based on the quran for example!
Any element which can be considered correct should be accepted, no matter what label it has.
Nothing should be rejected without reasons and research. One must proceed objectively.I don?t think all aspects of traditional islam are without justification, but some are... but obviously not all.
Not only PM should be logical in their approach, EVERYONE should be.
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bravo
332
(332) Say 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger459
(459) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.414
(414) And he who disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses the bounds set by Him - him shall Allah cause to enter the Fire. There he will abide. A humiliating chastisement awaits him. -
469 Whoever obeys God and the messenger, belongs with those
blessed by God the prophets, the first supporters of the truth, the
martyrs, and those who helped humanity. Ah! How beautiful is their
company!There is a lot more. So now, it is truely important to understand and try to get the true meaning of it all.