Are Progressive Muslims Demolishing Islam?
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OPF
So anyway, can you define "traditional mindset"? No dancing around the question please. A direct answer, or "I don't know".
OPF; do you burry your dead or you burn them? why? in any case?
I think you are intelligent enough to know now what a "traditional mindset" is.
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Salaam,
I've often said that the english dictionary definition of a muslim is sufficiant for me. The reason is when we look at the definition it states (2nd definition)
- an adherent of Islam. (ditionary.com)
To me this is sufficiant. At the same I understand the opposition to such plain definition that others have had on this site who say these basics "english" definitions are not sufficiant to describe such things. However for this particulare word, muslim, I believe it is. If we go further into the definition we have to naturally understand what Islam is aswell. When we look up the word, Islam, in the dictionary we can start to see how the plain english definition starts to fail
Islam 1. the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah. (dictionary.com)
We all know well enough that the Prophet Muhammad did not invent nor "founded" Islam. So even though the english definition of the term Islam leaves much to be desired, the definition of Muslim is still correct in the way that a Muslim adheres to Islam.
After the common understanding of Islam from the actual term itself, we understand that it is peaceful submission to God etc.. So a Muslim being an adherent of Islam is one who submits their will peacefully to Allah.
I do not know the actual and factual origin of the term Muslim but do believe it is an arabic word. And Muslims have been around, in Quranic terms, since Adam.
What I posted above, and did so very simplistically for you, is the common understanding of the term. For myself, the term has meant something since I've been very little.
My first language was farsi. In farsi we say, "mosalmoon" for muslim. I remember everytime I heard "mosalmoon" I would always associate the term with "mazloom" and "mazloom" meaning innocent. So for me the term has always had that connotation to it. When I put it all together, meaning my own understanding of the term and the common understanding it all comes together with the same results. So a Muslim is innocent because they submit their will to Allah and it comes from the begining and end of the human life term and has been around for as long as there has been human conciousness that requires such a thing as language to define the world around them.
Innocence is key.
Surah 1670. It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much) for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.
I pray this helps answer you questions.
peaceActually, I would not be able to put it better myself )
How do you judge? By the Quran. If someone claims they are in a state of submission to God, but kills someone, are they actually in a state of submission to God?
OPF
OPF; do you burry your dead or you burn them? why? in any case?I think you are intelligent enough to know now what a "traditional mindset" is.
"Traditional mindset" is a very broad phrase.
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Salam,
Please excuse my late reply to this topic.
OPF, whether it is your inability or your lack of consideration to fully answer the simple question posed to you, I do not know. I am certain that whatever the reason(s) may be, it is a matter of no little importance; yet, it is a matter that can be set aside for the moment to continue on the subject of the thread.
When looking at the original question of the thread, I believe Zenje has answered the question well by stating
Islam is indestructible!
Yes, Islam is indestructible, but given the limited free-will of humans, it is something that can become distorted by man. And it becomes man's handiwork that distorts and attempts to "demolish" Islam, as if.
One way this happens is when man inserts their own ideaologies within Islam. Man tries to own Islam as if it is some sort of property, material. So man puts his own agendas and own conditions in front of Islam by adding certain prefixs to the term itself. So now we have, Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufi Islam, Progressive Islam and I'm sure the list goes on.
Whatever the case these prefixes are merely showing the conditions that different humans groups give Islam in order to attain a certain type of ownership to it. All these conditions may seem to differ but tend to achieve the same result, exclusivity. It is self evident that the names and terms and conditions that man uses to put in front of Islam shows their actions in the sense that the conditions they insert into Islam preceeds Islam itself and therefore leads human kind astray.
all I am saying is that people who are "Muslim" by name only are hypocrites.
So I asked how to you judge? How do you back up your statement?
This, once again, is what I meant by saying in response to your comment here
Islam by title = Islam in word and word alone
Islam by deeds = Islam by action.
A = hypocrite.That what you are doing, is the same as what others who put prefixes in front of Islam have been doing. You are putting your own conditions into the Religion of Allah! Yet, you supply no support for your own actions.
How do you judge? Or are these merely your own conditions that you put as a prefix to Islam?
peace -
I already told you. You judge by the Quran, period. Is it hard to understand that? Am I adding my own condition into the "religion of Allah" by saying "Judge by the Quran"? rotfl
I didn't get this argument from myself, if you read. It's from the Quran (ref 3186, 9126, 2080-100, 292)
Are you being cynical for the sake of being cynical? Sure sounds like it.
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Salaam,
You may laugh all you like, but you still haven't answered a most simple question. It is only obvious that you use the Quran to hidebehind your ridiculas claims. Your inibility and your lack of consideration to back up your claim makes it appear that you are only a judgemental person and think yourself an authority on who is Muslim by action and who is Muslim by name only.
peace
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Salaam,
You may laugh all you like, but you still haven't answered a most simple question. It is only obvious that you use the Quran to hidebehind your ridiculas claims. Your inibility and your lack of consideration to back up your claim makes it appear that you are only a judgemental person and think yourself an authority on who is Muslim by action and who is Muslim by name only.
peace
I didn't judge on anyone. I simply said, that people can be called hypocrites, and believers.
If you follow the Quran, then I have 4912 to say to you.
think yourself an authority on who is Muslim by action and who is Muslim by name only.
Slander is poor.
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Salaam,
I didn't judge on anyone. I simply said, that people can be called hypocrites, and believers.
If you follow the Quran, then I have 4912 to say to you.
Slander is poor.Since you brought up that the subject, I would imagine that you know something about it. And thank you for bringing up 4912
- O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah. For Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Suspicion can be avoided through communication. That's why I ask you, how do you judge? Since you brought up the subject OPF, it would be good of you to answer how you judge your claim.
Slander? Not at all! You seemed to deleted the word some words to call it slander. And it still stands, without the responsibility of further explanation on your part, it does appear that you are only a judgemental person and think yourself an authority on who is Muslim by action and who is Muslim by name only. Why? because you brought it up, therefore it would be good of you to simply back it up.
Every question you have asked me I have answered to in good detail. Can you please do the same. I understand what the Quran says, but I like to know what OPF says since OPF says things like, "I am saying is that people who are "Muslim" by name only are hypocrites."
Thanks! and peace be upon you. )
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Salaam,
Since you brought up that the subject, I would imagine that you know something about it. And thank you for bringing up 4912
- O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah. For Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Suspicion can be avoided through communication. That's why I ask you, how do you judge? Since you brought up the subject OPF, it would be good of you to answer how you judge your claim.
Slander? Not at all! You seemed to deleted the word some words to call it slander. And it still stands, without the responsibility of further explanation on your part, it does appear that you are only a judgemental person and think yourself an authority on who is Muslim by action and who is Muslim by name only. Why? because you brought it up, therefore it would be good of you to simply back it up.
Every question you have asked me I have answered to in good detail. Can you please do the same. I understand what the Quran says, but I like to know what OPF says since OPF says things like, "I am saying is that people who are "Muslim" by name only are hypocrites."
Thanks! and peace be upon you. )
I DON'T judge. Simple? Judgement is only for the creator.
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I DON'T judge. Simple? Judgement is only for the creator.
Muslims must kill all the jurers and judges of the world and leave the Allah at the Kaba alone for the entire humanity to hail. & -
Muslims must kill all the jurers and judges of the world and leave the Allah at the Kaba alone for the entire humanity to hail. &
That in itself would require judging...
Who said anything about the cube, anyway?
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Salaam,
If that's all you wish to give me, then that's all I'll have to go with.
Thank you and peace be upon you. peace
Please keep in mind you are replying to text, not a person.
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Is there not a person behind it?
Is there not a person behind it that could just as easily pretend to be a 9 year old girl in an e-chatroom?
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Salaam,
OPF, please excuse me if my response shows impatience, but since I've saw you posting on multiple posts I thought maybe you wished not to reply to this one.
Bro/Sis... Whatever the case as you said, "Please keep in mind you are replying to text, not a person." I understand partially what you mean, but the point is there is a person behind your posts and since you also understand that it is text that we are reading and replying to, it is all the more important to give text necessary to bring your points across. Frankly, the point you made, "Is there not a person behind it that could just as easily pretend to be a 9 year old girl in an e-chatroom?" can be irrelavant (unless you'd like to expound on this point you made) because if even you are pretending to be 9 years or, or even if you are 9 years old, you are responsible enough to understand certain concepts and attempt to argue your points. This points me to the simple fact that you are smart enough to understand yet for some reason you wish not to adress certain points further. In any case and as I've said before I am certain that whatever the reason(s) may be, it is a matter of no little importance; yet, it is a matter that can be set aside for the moment to continue on the subject of the thread.
But when no further detail is outputed by you, then it makes it more difficult to even continue on the thread etc.
I understand why so many people are afraid to give out information on themselves etc.. yet we can still have a conversation without pretending to be 9 years old thus hiding behind the screen sort of say. I pray you take this into account, and consider to please expound on your ideas to the best of your abilities to help myself and perhaps others understand your point of view better. There is a person behind the screen name OPF, and that person is responsible for themselves. In a forum such as this, especially when one of the rules to back your statements (unless I understood this rule wrong) I hope you can in the future do better than what you have on this thread.
You stated, "Actually, I would not be able to put it better myself." in regards to the questions DArgento asked me. By far am I trying to say my response was the best that it could be, but I did attempt to give the question the attention and my time in hopes to bring about my point of view. Please be kind enough to do the same and insha_Allah we can actually progress in understanding.
peace.. peace
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You stated, "Actually, I would not be able to put it better myself." in regards to the questions DArgento asked me. By far am I trying to say my response was the best that it could be, but I did attempt to give the question the attention and my time in hopes to bring about my point of view. Please be kind enough to do the same and insha_Allah we can actually progress in understanding.
I was talking in terms of your response. You already got your answer - I don't pass judgement on other people's religion/deen/hypocrisy (except when I am in error, in other words, passing judgement is an error).
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I was talking in terms of your response. You already got your answer - I don't pass judgement on other people's religion/deen/hypocrisy (except when I am in error, in other words, passing judgement is an error).
I didn't get any answer except you first hiding behind the Quran, then saying you don't "judge" when you other words show that you do. So I don't know how you satisfy yourself by thinking you gave any type of real answer, because you didn't, OPF. So are you saying your words here are your "error"?
all I am saying is that people who are "Muslim" by name only are hypocrites.
Islam by title = Islam in word and word alone
Islam by deeds = Islam by action.A = hypocrite.
I pray you can see how your contradictions create this dilema.
peace
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I didn't get any answer except you first hiding behind the Quran, then saying you don't "judge" when you other words show that you do. So I don't know how you satisfy yourself by thinking you gave any type of real answer, because you didn't, OPF. So are you saying your words here are your "error"?
I pray you can see how your contradictions create this dilema.
peace
No, there is no dilemma. The point of view expressed is my understanding of the Quran, and what IT says on the matter. Which is why, the "How do you judge" question was invalid. I couldn't put it in words, because I simply didn't understand your question.
The Quran states those things, and the references have been given.
Settled?