4:48 and 4:116
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The majority, if not all, of Christians were born Christians. They did not choose to be Christians. It's just a label, but they do not necessarily act accordingly (act as idolaters), and those who thought actively about it rejected religions altogether. If I or you were born to Christian families, most probably we would have been Christians. Even those who think they believe in one God could be practicing idolatry. Idolatry, like believing, is behaviour more than lip service
i believe what you are saying, but i am sure all don't do a mere lip service.
And i do think the quran is about moving people to be more practical regarding their relationship to others and with their environment.
And regarding worship by ignoramus - i do think there wasn't any worship envisaged, and mere lip worship doesn't carry any weight (accept it does program yourself to an extent- i think) but encouraging good behaviour, good relationship as described in the quran is worshipping.
God Bless.
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i believe what you are saying, but i am sure all don't do a mere lip service.
And i do think the quran is about moving people to be more practical regarding their relationship to others and with their environment.
And regarding worship by ignoramus - i do think there wasn't any worship envisaged, and mere lip worship doesn't carry any weight and encouraging good behaviour, good relationship as described in the quran is worshipping.
God Bless.
salam
i think the Quran is about more than you say; even if the good behaviour and relationships (i presume you mean between fellow man) is all that is necessary to avoid hell, Allah speaks about sabiqoon... muqarabeen... fi jannatin naim.... c.f. Waqia etc.
salam
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448
God does not forgive setting partners with Him but He forgives anything else (what is below that)to whomever He wills; and whoever sets partners with God, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin
4116
God does not forgive setting partners with Him but He forgives anything else (what is below that)to whomever He wills; and whoever sets partners with God, he has indeed strayed far away.
2 questions
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Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins?
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Why the quraan does not give an example of someone who is a non believer but a good doer?
Salaam Samia,
I think your understanding of fundamentals of Islam is bit shaky, to me it is quite clear from the verses you presented that Our God Is The Only Idol we should worship, therefore your asertion above "1. Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins?" incorrect, secondly for the second point if Quran does not give an example of some one who is a good doer but non-believer, then that's that, which shows the believing in God is most important and the only way of salvation. However, saying that, if someone never heard about believing God Alone and about the Quran but he was good doer and that he never idol worshipped, then I believe that he is heaven material.
Kind regards
Ijaz
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Salaam
Samia,I think your understanding of fundamentals of Islam is bit shaky, to me it is quite clear from the verses you presented that Our God Is The Only Idol we should worship, therefore your asertion above "1. Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins?" incorrect, secondly for the second point if Quran does not give an example of some one who is a good doer but non-believer, then that's that, which shows the believing in God is most important and the only way of salvation. However, saying that, if someone never heard about believing God Alone and about the Quran but he was good doer and that he never idol worshipped, then I believe that he is heaven material.
Kind regards
Ijaz
Salaam ijaz
You labelled the question "1. Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins" as incorrect, yet you answered it.
You commented on the second question "then that's that", yet you gave your own unerstanding of a case where non believng in God does not necessarily mean bad deeds..Thanks for the answers.
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Peace Samia,
Very good questions.
I believe that "Believing" and "doing good" is the same thing. I do not believe in an oral manifestation of belief; anything oral in this regard is little but a claim. I believe that the true marker of "belief" is "good works". One who does good works, then, IS a "believer". He DOES believe in the 'Judge' detailed by the Quran, otherwise he would stay miles away from good works. When a person orally denies the Quran, but practically embraces it, then practice should take precedence, and vice versa.
I think our language and use of words has made "god a dirty word". It's all about saying and claiming belief in this empty concept called "god". Today, simply say "I believe in God" and suddenly everyone counts you a believer. No one seems to care about your deeds or doings, or what you put in this rather godforsaken concept of "god", they just find the sentence "I believe in God" to be so awfully delightful to their ears.
I think the Quran is wiser than this. In fact, I know.
Some claim that god will magically waste the good works of the one who's lips never spat out those four delicious words "I believe in God", but I cannot find this to be Quranically sound. I read from the Quran that the works of the rejecter will be wasted, not because of lacking lip service, but because their works were intrinsically worthless. The rejecter focuses his efforts on works that result in pleasure in this worldly life, THATS why he's a rejecter in the first place(!), and the quran repeatedly says that such works carry no value in the afterlife. THATS why a rejecter's works are wasted, not because god is discriminating.
Peace,
Nadeem
Great post Nadeem.
I think a particularly apt verse is 292.
"Did the people think that they will be left to say "We believe" without being put to the test?"
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Samia,
I think your understanding of fundamentals of Islam is bit shaky, to me it is quite clear from the verses you presented that Our God Is The Only Idol we should worship, therefore your asertion above "1. Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins?" incorrect, secondly for the second point if Quran does not give an example of some one who is a good doer but non-believer, then that's that, which shows the believing in God is most important and the only way of salvation. However, saying that, if someone never heard about believing God Alone and about the Quran but he was good doer and that he never idol worshipped, then I believe that he is heaven material.
Kind regards
Ijaz
Salaam ijaz
You labelled the question "1. Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins" as incorrect, yet you answered it.
You commented on the second question "then that's that", yet you gave your own unerstanding of a case where non believng in God does not necessarily mean bad deeds..Thanks for the answers.
Salaam Samia,
Where did I say in point 2, non believing in God is okay, please read the above, what I was saying quite clearly was that this person had not heard about believing in God Alone or Quran, I never said that this person did not believe in God..
God sends us messengers, Quran also is a messenger, God tells us quite clearly in the Quran that only the people who have heard the message and have transgressed will be punished, because God is Fair, and that's is exactly what I was saying about point 2..
Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger.
Kind Regards
Ijaz
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Salaam Samia,
Where did I say in point 2, non believing in God is okay, please read the above, what I was saying quite clearly was that this person had not heard about believing in God Alone or Quran, I never said that this person did not believe in God..
God sends us messengers, Quran also is a messenger, God tells us quite clearly in the Quran that only the people who have heard the message and have transgressed will be punished, because God is Fair, and that's is exactly what I was saying about point 2..
Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger.
Kind Regards
Ijaz
Salaam ijaz
Sorry if I presumed you understood what I was alluding to. I was not talking about people who do not believe in God out of arrogance or to push certain agendas for example. I think all those who commented were commenting along these lines, so I presumed you meant the same.
However, I did not say "it's OK", I rephrased "he is heaven material" as "non believing does not necessarily mean bad deeds", which is not very far from what you said.
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Salaam ijaz
Sorry if I presumed you understood what I was alluding to. I was not talking about people who do not believe in God out of arrogance or to push certain agendas for example. I think all those who commented were commenting along these lines, so I presumed you meant the same.
However, I did not say "it's OK", I rephrased "he is heaven material" as "non believing does not necessarily mean bad deeds", which is not very far from what you said.
Salaam Sister Samia,
No need to aplogise, all of us want to travel in the same direction therefore from time to time we need some help, if one of our brother or sister do help us then it is all well and good. I am grateful if I helped you in this matter..
Thanks
Ijaz
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448
God does not forgive setting partners with Him but He forgives anything else (what is below that)to whomever He wills; and whoever sets partners with God, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin
4116
God does not forgive setting partners with Him but He forgives anything else (what is below that)to whomever He wills; and whoever sets partners with God, he has indeed strayed far away.
2 questions
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Is non believing in God part of the forgiven sins?
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Why the quraan does not give an example of someone who is a non believer but a good doer?
See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11531.0
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1026, believing is not mentioned there, simply doing good is. It makes the distinction between good and evil, not between "believer" and "unbeliever".
Actually, I think the Quran is littered with these verses. See 1630, 5331, and many others. 18100=>end adds a criterion, however. As far as I see, the traditional viewpoint is correct - hell is for those who reject the signs of God when they are made clear to them.
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1026, believing is not mentioned there, simply doing good is. It makes the distinction between good and evil, not between "believer" and "unbeliever".
Actually, I think the Quran is littered with these verses. See 1630, 5331, and many others. 18100=>end adds a criterion, however. As far as I see, the traditional viewpoint is correct - hell is for those who reject the signs of God when they are made clear to them.
Why this discussion is going on ? When the Holy Quran is
-Mufassal
-Clear
-ExplainedJust put arabic text of the Verses and finished.
No comments please. -
That is true .
Why to discuss Quranic verses when these are
-Fully detailed
-Clear
-Explained
Is reading the Holy Quran not sufficient ?It is,
Leo! It is actually our wisdom , and knowledge, which is still progressing on a learning curve , but is, still not up to the required level, for comprehending the message completely.
And when he increases our knowledge and we make sense of his commandments , we find that it was actually simple ,clear, and fully detailed,
Don't we?
peace
siki
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It is,
Leo! It is actually our wisdom , and knowledge, which is still progressing on a learning curve , but is, still not up to the required level, for comprehending the message completely.
And when he increases our knowledge and we make sense of his commandments , we find that it was actually simple ,clear, and fully detailed,
Don't we?
peace
siki
So you agree that Quranic verses need explanation ??
Am I right to understand you ?? -
Is this sarcasm or do you really believe that it is
-Fully detailed
-Clear
-ExplainedWhy it is so that whatever Quranists say ,they do not act accordingly??
Why this double policy ?? I have not been able to understand.I am not a learned person.What I have learnt from this scholarly forum is that Holy Quran is a ,well explained book ,very clear book but still I see
-explanations going on
-difference of opinion
Is the explanation of the Quran insufficient or defective (ma3zallah) that you are further explaining it?
Just confused -
So you agree that Quranic verses need explanation ??
Am I right to understand you ??knowledge of 21st century is still far from comprehending the things in their true spirit , i sincerely hope, you are not recommending the wisdom belonging to 9th century for explaning quran?
siki