is following quran alone even quranic?
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Do you know how female was created ??
If you know then how is it possible that he, to whom the "Holy book" was directly revealed , did not know.(common sense ).If Allah can tell you how female was created ,why not to him (Prophet PBUH).Or
Allah has told you but not to him ?? Is this, last the case ??I agree with all you say. But what do you think of this hadith the prophet said women are created from a crooked rib?
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I agree with all you say. But what do you think of this hadith the prophet said women are created from a crooked rib?
Putting aside what is the value of this Hadith ?
First question to be settled is
Do we know about Quran explanation better or the Prophet PBUH??
This is fundamental Question because all other questions stem from it???
If you are brave enough ,give me clear answer . -
The Last Messenger {Peace and Salam is always upon him} knew only that what he was told in the Quran.
Quran tells him that "You and your nation did not know it earlier" and reminds him "You were not present there when so and so happened".
Messenger was not there when woman was created. And Allah did not tell him in the Quran about the manner and methodology of creation of first woman. Therefore it is conjecture and attributing a false thing to the Messenger if someone says that he narrated the manner of creation of the first woman. It is a blatent lie attributed to the Messenger.
Messenger categorically replied to the people who were interested to listen something, from his own knowledge instead of Quran, that he does not alter the words with his own perception/thought and knowledge.
Quran did not tell the Messenger and the humanity about the time and manner of creation of water. Then can anyone including the Messenger inform us with any amount of certainity about the creation of water?
I hope no one attributed this sort of Hadith to the Messenger. -
Salaam all,
The Last Messenger {Peace and Salam is always upon him} knew only that what he was told in the Quran.
There are two main issues with this
1- You have no proof of this. Indeed the Qur'an says that the book came to your (Muhammad) heart and mind. The book is a wider designation than Qur'an. It encompasses the Qur'an and much more.2- Even if the prophet knew only the Qur'an, then you cannot assume that you will know of the Qur'an same as his knowledge. In fact, you and all of our knowledge is a fraction of his. So, you have to follow him, because he may have caught something or many many things that you and I missed.
Nerspi, the issue of the language and the fact that many people claim that they speak Arabic and claim that they are right while the others are wrong is a very important question. Also, the issue of the truth has to be one or something. Here is my take on it
If people want to understand the Qur'an purely on linguistic tools, as the Qur'an aloners want, then they need to have a coherent method of studying the Qur'an and of applying the linguistic tools. The evidence of wishy washyness is too clear to be denied on this forum. What are the more consistent rules of language?
Take words as concepts with a wide range of meaning that spans the concrete and the abstract, then limit the understanding through context, observed facts that make some of the range of the meaning impossible, or other clear and specific statements of the Qur'an that make part of the range of the meaning impossible.
This is as far as linguistics will take you. Taking bias and thinking that it is logic and imposing it on the Qur'an is unacceptable. What are people doing here?
They place limits on the range of the meanings when they could not. They sometimes try to expand some meanings beyond their range. And then they start fighting with each other and with Sunnis who will show them the different range of the meanings.How does hadeeth fall into this?
1- If the hadeeth is consistent with the range of the meaning of the Ayat or words, then no one can be 100% sure that it is fabricated and it will have to at least be considered, especially if the Isnad is good too.2- Also, the authentic hadeeth, as the understanding of the prophet, on whom the message came in his own language but dialect, may provide the person with a narrower range of the meaning. Something that makes it liveable in case the linguistic range was too wide and inapplicable. Examples
1- The issue of relationships between men and women during menses.
2- The issues of Salat, Zakat, Hajj, Sujood, Rukoo and so on.
3- probably many more that I cannot think of at this point.Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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{Quote}There are two main issues with this
1- You have no proof of this. Indeed the Qur'an says that the book came to your (Muhammad) heart and mind. The book is a wider designation than Qur'an. It encompasses the Qur'an and much more.{Hussein}I did not say anything. It is Quran that says like that. Quran tells him that "You and your nation did not know it earlier" and reminds him "You were not present there when so and so happened". I think for a man like you I need not quote the reference from the verses of Quran.
?Even if the prophet knew only the Qur'an, then you cannot assume that you will know of the Qur'an same as his knowledge. In fact, you and all of our knowledge is a fraction of his. So, you have to follow him, because he may have caught something or many many things that you and I missed. {Hussein}
If this could be considered an argument, perhaps there is none who ever claimed to know the Quran as the Last Messenger knew. But the question is how to determine what knowledge beyond the visible words of Quran he taught to people of his time?
Do you think the ?Hadith? of Allah was so complex/confusing/ mysterious that the words of Arabic could not simply narrate that? Quran is the Hadith of Allah and now it is the Qaul of the Last Messenger {Peace and salam always upon him}.
Do you think the Qaul of the Last Messenger is not sufficient but those people are more important who start with two ?Qala Qala? to understand the Qaul of the Messenger?
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Part of the miracle of the Qur'an is that it is simple at some level and complex at another.{Hussein}
But Brother,
This negates the tall claim of the Quran that it has been made easy to comprehend. Complexity is not in Quran, we make it complex for people when we assign meanings to its word according to our own perceptions and thoughts/knowledge, desires, motives, social/political considerations. Whether we could perceive something according to our present day knowledge or not we should translate the words of the Quran exactly according to the thought and perception of the Root from which a particular word is made. No complexity would arise.
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But Brother,
This negates the tall claim of the Quran that it has been made easy to comprehend. Complexity is not in Quran, we make it complex for people when we assign meanings to its word according to our own perceptions and thoughts/knowledge, desires, motives, social/political considerations. Whether we could perceive something according to our present day knowledge or not we should translate the words of the Quran exactly according to the thought and perception of the Root from which a particular word is made. No complexity would arise.
Simple and straightforward question
Whose knowledge of Quran explanation is better ??
-That of Holy Prophe PBUH
-Or that of yours
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Be brave and come up with the straigforward answer (No "taamaktoonyan" -
The Last Messenger is the best person to "explain" {tabayyan} the Quran; who has a doubt about it? Allah had told him to "explain" {Bayan} is His responsibility. Allah first explained a verse by another revelation to the Messenger and he explained to the world at large. Neither Learned Bukhari and other six learned people were present while he was reciting Quran nor you and me. Messenger took the responsibility of the Book only; he did not say that after 250 years of his departure from the world there will be people like Bukhari etc who will collect his words and pass it on to other generations.
Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion? -
The Last Messenger is the best person to "explain" {tabayyan} the Quran; who has a doubt about it? Allah had told him to "explain" {Bayan} is His responsibility. Allah first explained a verse by another revelation to the Messenger and he explained to the world at large. Neither Learned Bukhari and other six learned people were present while he was reciting Quran nor you and me. Messenger took the responsibility of the Book only; he did not say that after 250 years of his departure from the world there will be people like Bukhari etc who will collect his words and pass it on to other generations.
Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion?You are always superfluous and push in the material which is not needed and it creates "PEARLS AND DIAMONDS" which ,when I pick up you mind it.So please not to scatter them so frequently.
Now coming to the point.Do you not try to explain what is
-Qibla
-Al-masjidul-Haram
to the people who do not know like me.???Did prophet ever explained to people as you are explaing to the people i.e
"What is meant by 'qibla"
"what is meant by -al masjidul-haram ??Or Ma3zallah he was worse than you in knowledge and he did not explain it to the people?
If Quran has already explained every thing as you perceive,then what are you being doing??
Why are you giving explanation about
-salat
-sujudAnd waisting pages of the internet ?
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Putting aside what is the value of this Hadith ?
First question to be settled is
Do we know about Quran explanation better or the Prophet PBUH??
This is fundamental Question because all other questions stem from it???
If you are brave enough ,give me clear answer .Of course the prophet is the best who would explain it, no doubt about that, and I do not think any one on this forum thinks otherwise.
Now, would you answer my question? What do you tink of that hadith? -
Of course the prophet is the best who would explain it, no doubt about that, and I do not think any one on this forum thinks otherwise.
Now, would you answer my question? What do you tink of that hadith?I assure you we will come to this "narration" also.But we have to move with a sequenceWe should not put cart before the horse.
Unless many questions are resolved ,such things cannot be comprehended.
You have accepted that he PBUH is the best person to 'explain the meanings of Quran"
Now the very next question is
If he PbUH new best of all ,thenDid he explain these meanings to the people or not ??
If he PBUH explained ,where is that explanation ?? -
Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion?Do you think this is not a relevant or important question but just superfluous?
Quran and Bukhari both superfluous? Is this the koh noor heera from you to me.
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Whatever Learned Bukhari and others said is to be subjected to scrutiny/evaluation and the Criterion is Quran.
Do you accept Quran as the Criterion or Bukhari is the Criterion?Do you think this is not a relevant or important question but just superfluous?
Quran and Bukhari both superfluous? Is this the koh noor heera from you to me.
Mazhar Please .A serious discussion is going on.Do not try to detrack it ,otherwise ???
I assure you we will discuss it but certain questions need to be settled.If not then I will be sure you shed only "PEARLS AND DIAMONDS" -
Brother Mazhar,
Bring the Aya or Ayat that say that the Qur'an is easy and straightforward. If it is that easy, then why are the self righeous Qur'an aloners so much in disarray that they cannot come up with a united view of any major Qur'anic concept?!
Hussein
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Of course the prophet is the best who would explain it
Verse please?
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I assure you we will come to this "narration" also.But we have to move with a sequenceWe should not put cart before the horse.
Unless many questions are resolved ,such things cannot be comprehended.
You have accepted that he PBUH is the best person to 'explain the meanings of Quran"
Now the very next question is
If he PbUH new best of all ,thenDid he explain these meanings to the people or not ??
If he PBUH explained ,where is that explanation ??Please stop this habit of yours trying to evade answering questions. I answered your question, and you now want to be the one who throws questions? Why don't you want to answer? Because you will show that you do not know what "obey the messenger" really is?
Still, I will answer your question I do not know if he was asked to explain them. I know the answer they claimed came from him is wrong. Two probabilities
(me) Women are not created from a crooked rib because qur'aan makes no differene in male and female creation (as per the qur'aan) The prophet does not utter nonesense (as per the qur'aan). Conclusion The prophet could not have said this hadith ..therefore this hadith is a lie.
(you) (can you fill in your argument please?) -
The hadeeth in question is not very strong. It is the only hadeeth from it's narrator that Bukhari narrated. This puts some question marks about the degree of authenticity. The hadeeth goes like this
"Take care of the women for they were created from the rib and the top of the rib is the most crooked. If you try to straighten it, then it will break, so take care of women."
1- The hadeeth was talking to men regarding women. If he were talking to women about men, he could have said something similar but he was not.
2- The message of the hadeeth is positive. Do not push people too hard because you cannot change their nature or you will break them. The message is mainly to the men because they are the ones who want to push changes of the nature of others, women or otherwise. However, the hadeeth does not limit it's message only to women.
3- The Qur'an does say that Adam's spouse was created from him. The hadeeth is consistent with that.
4- The Qur'an says many negative things about humanity and men. It is not negative to point to limitations of some humans. The fact that this hadeeth did not talk about the limitations of men is because they were not the subject. Simple as that.
Take care all
Hussein
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The hadeeth in question is not very strong. It is the only hadeeth from it's narrator that Bukhari narrated. This puts some question marks about the degree of authenticity. The hadeeth goes like this
"Take care of the women for they were created from the rib and the top of the rib is the most crooked. If you try to straighten it, then it will break, so take care of women."
1- The hadeeth was talking to men regarding women. If he were talking to women about men, he could have said something similar but he was not.
2- The message of the hadeeth is positive. Do not push people too hard because you cannot change their nature or you will break them. The message is mainly to the men because they are the ones who want to push changes of the nature of others, women or otherwise. However, the hadeeth does not limit it's message only to women.
3- The Qur'an does say that Adam's spouse was created from him. The hadeeth is consistent with that.
4- The Qur'an says many negative things about humanity and men. It is not negative to point to limitations of some humans. The fact that this hadeeth did not talk about the limitations of men is because they were not the subject. Simple as that.
Take care all
Hussein
I agree 100% with you that this is a weak hadeeth, I also believe this is a baseless hadeeth, which is hearsay, conjecture, and worst of all, a lie against Allah. As said in 693, who is more evil than that?
1 - An awful lot of hadeeth happen to have "men talking regarding women" yet very few if any derogatory towards men.
2 - If the hadeeth is metaphorical, then it can be said the same for men. Do the prophet's words run out, since according to hadeethists, everything he spoke and did was according to revelation? Or do you not subscribe to that school of thought?
3 - No it does not. No it does not. 693, again. It says something completely different that could be taken as if Adam's spouse was created from him, but then we run into a slight, ahem, problem, the idea of God being stupid enough to originate humanity from a series of incestuous relationships. In this light, it can be said that the creation of man is miraculous, since the odds of such an incestuous family/species surviving is very slim. Of course, this is what we call "tripe".
4 - No it does not. It addresses deficiencies in humans equally, whereas in hadeeth, the majority of inhabitants of the fire are... women. According to other hadeeth, someone reciting surah X 7x10^y times will get 7x10^z rewards. I wonder what these women did to lose all that reward.