Starjade Sura 4:82 challenges the whole of Islam.
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Stop shirking those errors exist in the Koran. So check again instead of making excuses as to why you avoid them. 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus for a starter. I note all Muslims avoid that conflict. rotfl Bit hard to explain isnt it. rotfl
Hey why not give an explanation to this error in the Koran. No Muslim touched upon that either.
Issa
The name for Jesus in the Qur'an is given as "Issa." Yet this is incorrect. Issa is the Arabic equivalent of Esau, the name for the twin brother of Jacob. The correct Arabic name for Jesus would be Yesuwa, similar to the Hebrew Yeshuwa, yet the supposedly "all-knowing" Qur'an has no mention of it.What about these errors in the Koran.
Mountains
Suras 1615; 2131; 3110; 786-7; 8819 tell us that God placed (threw down) mountains on the earth like tent pegs to keep the earth from shaking - after the earth was formed. For pre-scientific man this would sound logical, since mountains are large and therefore, their weight would have seemingly, a stabilizing effect on the earth. Yet we now know this logic to be quite inaccurate. Mountains were not formed and placed on the earth to render the earth's crust stable. In fact, the very existence of mountains is evidence of instability in the earth's crust, as they are found and pushed up by the colliding of tectonic plates (i.e. the migration of Arabia toward Iran has resulted in the Zagros range, France pushing against Italy produced the Alps, and the Indian plate nudging Tibet has given us the Himalayas)And He has cast great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with you, and rivers and roads that you may go aright,
And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.
He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse with you, and He spread in it animals of every kind; and We sent down water from the cloud, then caused to grow therein (vegetation) of every noble kind.
Have We not made the earth an even expanse?
And the mountains as projections (thereon)? And the mountains, how they are firmly fixed,What about....
I3vi Alexander the Great
In sura 1883-100 we find the story of Dhu al Qarnayn, who is known as the Greek conqueror, Alexander the Great. According to this sura, his power was given to him by Allah (aya 84), which some Muslims contend is an assertion that he had the same prominence as a prophet. But of even more importance to our discussion is the contention, according to this sura, that he was credited with building an enormous wall of iron and brass between two mountains, which was tall enough and wide enough to keep an entire army out (aya 96).It is simple to test these claims because Alexander lived in the full light of history. Arrian, Quintus Curtius and other historians of repute have written the history of Alexander's exploits. From their writings we know that Aristotle was his tutor. Yet, these historians equivocally make him out as a heathen general whose debauchery and drunkenness contributed to his untimely death at the early age of 33. They show that he was an idolater, and actually claimed to be the son of the Egyptian god Amun. How, therefore, could he be considered to have the same prominence as a prophet, or even, as aya 84 clearly asserts, that Allah was the agent for his power?
Yet, what is even more troubling, there is no historical evidence anywhere that he built a wall of iron and brass between two mountains, a feat which, indeed, would have proven him to be one of the greatest builders or engineers in the history of mankind.
Heres an easy one for you to argue.....
Pharaoh's Cross
In sura 7124 we find Pharoah admonishing his sorcerers because they believe in the superiority of Moses's power over theirs. Pharoah threatens them with cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, and then says they will all die on the cross. But their were no crosses in those days. Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the time of Christ, 1700 years after Pharaoh!I add that in the original version of this tale as was writ in the Old Testament the Pharaoh never threatened his Magicians it only claims he did in the Koran...
Oh come on you gotta give these Jinns and shooting stars ago just for my entertainment,
Jinns & Shooting stars
Meteors, and even stars are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropping Satans and jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in heaven, and then pass on what they hear to men in suras 376-10; 5533-35; 675; & 726-9.How are we to understand these suras? Can we believe indeed that Allah throws meteors, which are made up of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel, at non- material devils who steal a hearing at the heavenly council? And how do we explain the fact that many of earths meteors come in showers which consequently travel in parallel paths. Are we to thus understand that these parallel paths imply that the devils are all lined up in rows at the same moment?
What about the Grammatical Errors.....
Muslims believe that since the Qur'an is the Word of God, it is without error in all areas. We have already dealt with the questions concerning the style and literary qualities of the Qur'an earlier, and found it to be quite defective in those areas. Yet, even more troubling are the grammatical mistakes which exist within its text. Can we expect an omnipotent and omniscient God to allow such deficiencies to creep into his supposedly 'perfect' and eternal revelation? Consider the following1.In sura 2177, the word Sabireen should be Sabiroon because of its position in the sentence (since it is a human plural, it should remain in the masculine plural form?).
2.In sura 7160, the phrase "We divided them into twelve tribes," is written in the feminine plural Uthnati Ashrat Asbaataan. Due to the fact that it refers to a number of people, it should be written in the masculine plural form Uthaiy Ashara Sibtaan, as all human plurals are automatically male in Arabic.
3.In sura 4162, the phrase "And (especially) those who establish regular prayer..." is written as al Muqiyhina al salaat, which again is in the feminine plural form, instead of the masculine plural al Muqiyhuna al salaat (?). It is important to note that the two following phrases, "(those who) practice regular charity, and (those who) believe in Allah..." are both correctly written in the masculine human plural form.
4.In sura 569, the title al Sabioon, referring to the Sabians, should be written al Sabieen.
5.In sura 6310, the phrase "I shall be" is written akun (which is in the 3rd person?). Yet since this word refers to the future (& is in the 1st person) it should be written akunu.
6.In sura 359, the words Kun feekunu should be written, Kun fakaana.
There are other grammatical errors which exist in the Qur'an as well, such as suras 2192; 1328; 2066 and the duals which replace the plurals in sura 55.What about the Moses thing you overlooked that Egyption history says is not true....
The first concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 289). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 210 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted MosesWhat about the Sword thingy...
The Sword verses the Call to "fight and slay the pagan (idolaters) wherever you find them" (sura 95); or "strike off their heads in battle" (sura 475); or "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (sura 929); or "Fight then... until the religion be all of it Allah's" (sura 839); or "a grievous penalty against those who reject faith" (sura 93). These all contradict "There is no compulsion in religion" (sura 2256).Dont forget that Jesus and Muhammad are both proclaiming they are that same Deuteronomy Prophet. I do note you are shirking that one....
What about...
Widows were to keep themselves apart for 4 months and 10 days after their husband's death (sura 2234), which is then changed to one year (2240).What about these mistakes...
In sura 582, Pagans and Jews are considered the furthest from Muslims, while Christians are the nearest, yet in sura 551 & 57 Muslims are told not to have Christians as friends. Interestingly, in the same verse (51) it comments that Jews and Christians are friends, yet the only thing they have in common is their agreement on the authenticity of the Old Testament.What about these errors...
In sura 17101 we find 9 plagues (or signs), whereas in sura 7133 only 5 are listed (note Ali's footnote no.1091 which adds the rod and leprous hand from verses 107 and 108, as well as the drought and short crops of verse 130 as plagues, to make up the nine). These plagues dont even match up with the Old Testament which is the original tale.What about....
In sura 5157 we find that Jinn were created to worship Allah, yet in sura 7176 we find that the Jinn were created for Hell.And what about errors in Paradise eh?
Lust is condemned in sura 7940-41, yet in sura 424-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (one needs to ask why a man needs a concubine if not to satisfy his lust). Furthermore, for those who are faithful lust is the primary, and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 5546-78; 5611-39). Surely if lust is wrong on earth and hateful to a Holy God, it cannot be pleasing to him in paradise.On that same note, wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 591), yet rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise (suras 4715; 765; 8325)
What about....
Muslims Jews, Christians, and Sabians are all considered saved in sura 262, yet in sura 385 only Muslims are considered saved.Oh come on you gotta answer this matter of the Sun setting in a pool of water. Do you believe that is true....
In sura 1886 it states, "Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water Near it he found a people We said O Dhu al Qarnayn! Either punish them,or treat them with kindness." It is well known that only the superstitious in the age of Muhammad believed that the sun would set in a muddy spring.What about those Angels building bonfires to make clouds. rotfl I have mentioned those before. Your shirking away from these errors in the Koran. I already have a reply from a Muslimabout these Angels making cloud and Thunder. He believed it was true. I object to the Koran turning humans into idiots.
The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning
It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds. Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God?s angels?exactly like Gabriel!In the Qur?an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being?although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God. The expounders of the Qur?an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,
"Ibn ?Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ?It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."?
In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse
"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."Not only ibn ?Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue
"On the authority of Ibn ?Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ?Tell us about the thunder. What is it?? He told them
?It is one of God?s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.? They said to him, ?What is this sound that we hear?? He said ?(It is) his voice (The angel?s voice)."?
The same incident?the question of the Jews and Muhammad?s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur?an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.
We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ?Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these. Concerning lighting, Muhammad affirms that it is an angel like the thunder and like Gabriel and Michael. On page 230 of the above references, Suyuti alludes to it. Also on page 68 of part 4 of the "Itqan", the Suyuti records for us the names of the angels, which are "Gabriel, Michael, Harut, Marut, the Thunder and the Lightning (He said) that the lightning has four faces."
The Suyuti listed all these under the sub-title, "The names of God?s Angels". He also indicated that Muhammad said that the lightning is the tail end of an angel whose name is Rafael (refer to part 4, p. 230 of the Itqan).
rotfl Starjade already has noted that Islamic sound of Silence. I did try and explain to Horseonwheels that no Muslim on this Planet can defend the Koran or the silly claims of Muhammad from my God given Revelations.
I am the only Lord King of the apocalyptic Castle and all who stand against me will bite the Dust. eat rotfl
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Navid you said; Starjade, Thank you for displaying your skills in copying and pasting.
Starjade says; Look here things take time to write and as they are already writ then why should I not copy them from word and post them. Do you think I should spend hours re writing something already writ. That is just silly. I have too many conversations with other people to have my Time wasted on trivial things. Whats the matter are those errors and contradictions In the Koran too deep for you or too tough to respond to. Why do you avoid this matter about Jesus and Muhammad both proclaiming themselves to being that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up?
Why does 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus when Deuteronomy law proves Jesus and the New Testament Testimonies already to be a Fraud. Why would Muhammad then believe in Jesus only to say he is that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up when that is the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself as being. And what you pretend you cannot see the contradiction.
How come you as a Muslim did not know that Muhammad proclaimed he was that Prophet that Moses said the Living God promised Moses he would raise up when Muslims all around the world are in conflict about this very proclamation bragging that Muhammad as a descendant of Abraham must be that prophet not Jesus. They argue over the matter of thy brethren being the meaning of it being Ishmaelites. Then going to lengths to speak of the descendancy of Muhammad. Do you think they do that for no reason or is it that you lack historical knowledge of the religion of Islam that you follow. Why would Muhammad claim he fulfilled also the Prophecies of Isaiah when Isaiah was speaking of the coming of that long awaited Deuteronomy Prophet. You are very nieve to the claims of your own religion and the activities of Muslims world wide.
(cough) Be wary now?. Do you make the statement on behalf of the followers of Islam that Muhammad is not that Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up in the midst of the Jews. I demand an answer and what you say be sure will be displayed as an admission on many other forums. Many will be Islamic as well as Jewish and Christian forums. Do you make the statement on behalf of the followers of Islam that Muhammad is not that Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up in the midst of the Jews.
Navid you said; That said, STILL waiting for internal contradictions in the quran. Please present two or more supposedly contradicting verses (all from the quran) and explain why you think they are contradicting. Thank you.
Starjade says; I have already staggered many errors and contradictions on every page in this thread. To pretend you do not see them is you being a Kuffar Shirker. Others can see them. I have even more staggering lists of errors existing in the Koran displayed on many other forums around the world. Do not pretend that they do not exist for they are displayed as proof of your shirking lies.
Now I admit that not all of those errors are significant and are petty. You would sought them out to respond to those whiles ignoring the more damaging errors found in the Koran and in the claims of Muhammad. This Jesus thing and 11 Chapters of the Koran glorifying Jesus are just one of those errors you have no explanation for just shirkers excuses. This does not show you in a good light. Those who follow my activities will notice your avoidance of the cold reality of the staggering amounts of errors found in the Koran and you will become known as being shirkers. Of course the much loved Deuteronomy Prophet Starjade grows in power by your very denial. With those immortal words of told you so as you clearly bite the Dust.
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Samia you said; Hahahaha Now everytime I read "Starjade says" I'll
Starjade says; Be sure the laugh will be on you. Starjade has islam by the short and curlies. In a more public forum such as TV and Newspapers Islam as a whole will bite the Dust and your Islamic scholars know they are powerless against me and my God given revelations. Your false laughs do not hide the truth of reality they show you wimper noises like a dog that got run over and is trying to save face by licking its wounds. Do you really sit there so nieve to think that I would not realize my power over your religion. You have nothing to laugh at. Whereas I will be smiling all the way to the bank as I am the only one who is the King of this apocalyptic castle and all who come to face me are seen to shirk as they bite the Dust.
And he began to make the ark; and whenever the chiefs from among his people passed by him they laughed at him. He said If you laugh at us, surely we too laugh at you as you laugh (at us).
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Aaron you said; starjade actually leroy jenkins is famous in cyberspace... he even had a reference on jeopardy, so he is famous in real space too... iris? never saw her on jeopardy or youtube
Starjade says; Iris lives in America but she is well known in cyberspace as well. Unlike you Iris and myself visit mainly religious forums speaking with the congregations. I have never heard of Leroy Jenkins and so he is not as famous as you claim.
Aaron you said; and when i said your webpage is brutal i didn't mean that the content was harsh towards those it is speaking against...
Starjade says; Well it is blunt and to the point and all those who stood against me did bite the Dust. Many were Islamic and Christian Scholars. Because I am blunt and to the point those conversations may appear harsh but sometimes you have to appear cruel to be kind. I was saving them from themselves and the deceptions of man that has been brought before them. On the whole the web site is informative and it has had over 1 and a half million visitors since it went up. It is not my web site by the way. It belongs to the American Philosopher Liberty Girl who began collecting my writings years ago.
Aaron you said; i meant it is brutal in the fact that it looks like absolute garbage, half the content is unreadable due to your bad font choices, and puff the magic dragon smoking a pipe is really distracting. your layout blows.
Starjade says; I prefer to write in Times new Roman as the lettering is smaller and easier to read. I chose white fonts as it stands out better on the background pages. The brick wall scene is because I liked the idea of the words of the Prophet are written on the subway wall. I loved that Dragon Gif and the other characters. Had you read the pages the Dragons vanish from site so your comments are petty. It gives a bit of life to the forum. Others love it. It is what is written that counts and those facts crucify many religions that follow false Prophets and false Gods. It is the maps that are important and my intent as that Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up in the midst of the Jews.
Have you ventured into my conversations with the Muslims yet and saw them bite the Dust. They had Islamic scholars, clever people with knowledge of many religions on those forums who loved debating religious matters with me. Some Shirked of course but most got chatting. Now they are real Muslims. They still bit the Dust and they were more experts on the religion of Islam more so than you would think that you are.
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yay I am still waiting. rotfl
Perhaps you might want to go tap an Islamic scholar on the shoulder or one of your imams and see if hee hee he can help? eat rotfl
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Starjade, are these contradictions in the Quran, Your Revelations or did you get them from somewhere else?
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Hi Everyone
Starjade is right about ?Allah?. Let?s look at the facts with complete backup/sources.
Who Really Is 'Allah' The Supreme God Of The Makkans
INTRODUCTION AND HYPOTHESIS
The Old Testament specifically denies the Muslim claim that the pre-Islamic Ishmaelites knew and worshiped the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. The data conclusively shows that as the timeline of the centuries unfolded the Ishmaelites forsook the God of their ancestors Abraham and Jacob, Yahweh or Jehovah (YHWH), for the worship of some false god. The false god whom they worshiped as the true God was quite possibly Baal. The data also shows that Hubal was the high god worshiped at Mecca, which is supportted by the view that he was the Allah of pre-Islamic times. He Allah or Hubal was the high god of the Makkans ; although, they had many other gods and goddesses such as the daughter celestial goddesses of Allah who was the old middle eastern Moon god.
A great wall supposedly built by Dhul-Qarnayn literally meaning "He of the Two Horns", is a figure mentioned in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, where he is described as a great and righteous ruler who built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West. Moreover, he is regarded by some Muslims as a prophet. The epithet was also familiar among the pre-Islamic Arabs , who applied it to at least three different kings. Now this may seem strange to mention in the introduction, but is important as it clearly shows that Muhammad adopted pagan myths into the Quran as well as using Bible accounts as its framework. Accounts to prove he adopted this pagan myth are sound at the Cave chapter of the Quran at Sura 1883-98 which will be dealt with shortly.
SURA 1883-98 AND THE DHUL-QARNAYN
And they ask you about Zulqarnain. Say I will recite to you an account of him.
Surely We established him in the land and granted him means of access to every thing.
So he followed a course.
Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said As to him who is injust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It;
Even so! and We had a full knowledge of what he had.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached (a place) between the two mountains, he found on that side of them a people who could hardly understand a word.
They said O Zulqarnain! surely Gog and Magog make mischief in the land. Shall we then pay you a tribute on condition that you should raise a barrier between us and them
He said That in which my Lord has established me is better, therefore you only help me with workers, I will make a fortified barrier between you and them;
Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.
So they were not able to scale it nor could they make a hole in it.
He said This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it level with the ground, and the promise of my Lord is ever true.Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an.
Main article Alexander in the Qur'an (Theory)
The story of Dhul-Qarnayn as described in the Qur'an follows very closely some passages of the Alexander Romance, a thoroughly embellished compilation of Alexander the Great's exploits from Hellenistic and early Christian sources which underwent numerous expansions and revisions throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages. The Alexander Romance was enormously popular in the Hellenistic world, including Jewish communities, among which Alexander had practically gained the status of a folk hero. Some adaptations containing all the elements of the Qur'anic account can be found in early Hellenistic documents, such as the Armenian recension of the Alexander Romance. Actually the main elements of the story (an iron gate constructed by Alexander blocking the passage of Scythian tribes; identification of said Scythians with Gog and Magog) can already be found in Josephus and in Saint Jerome, although in fragmented occurrences (see Alexander in the Qur'an for details).For these reason the widely accepted view is that the (indirect) model for Dhul Qarnayn is Alexander the Great. The majority of medieval Muslim scholars were happy to identify Dhul-Qarnayn as Alexander. However, some Muslim scholars have asserted that the medieval scholars were mistaken and that Dhul-Qarnayn cannot be Alexander.
Cyrus the Great as Dhul Qarnain
Main article Cyrus the Great in the Qur'an (theory)
Some contemporary Muslim scholars, such as Maududi and Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, have suggested that Dhul-Qarnayn is Cyrus the Great. This theory has been endorsed by Iranian scholars Allameh Tabatabaei .The archaic Dhul-Qarnayn
Some early Islamic commentators stipulated that Dhul-Qarnayn must have been a contemporary of Abraham. Others postulated an Alexander who lived 2000 years before Alexander the Great.The Arab Dhul-Qarnayn
Two early Arabian kings were known as Dhul-Qarnayn the northern Arabian king Al-Mundhir al-Akbar ibn Ma' as-Sama' (so called for his two curled locks), and the early South Arabian king Tubba' al-Aqran. South Arabian interpreters of the Qur'an argue that the Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn was their king Tubba'. Other supporters of the Yemeni Dhul-Qarnayn theory included (the Persian) Biruni in his Athar al-baqiyah, Asma'i in his Tarikh al-Arab ("History of Arab", and Sirah of Ibn Hisham, among others.
Others have suggested that Dhul-Qarnayn could be the Egyptian pharoah Narmer , who unified northern and southern Egypt. Among supporters of the Arab Dhul-Qarnayn theory were Mughrizi in his book al-Khutat, and Allama Sayyed Habeddin al-Shahrestani.The angelic Dhul-Qarnayn
There are scattered references in which Ali ibn Abi Talib gives the epithet Dhul-Qarnayn. Since Dhul-Qarnayn was a righteous ruler, this may simply be a way of praising by Ali. Mughrizi also quotes Mukhtar ibn Abi Ubayd as saying that Ali always referred to Dhul-Qarnayn as "an angel without wings". The 8th century scholar Al-Jahiz, in his (???????), also writes of Dhul-Qarnayn being born to a human mother and angelic father.Of course this is the same kind of story/legend as that where the Quran took the old middle eastern Moon god, 'Allah,' and tried to blend him, a puppet celestial god of Satan, into the true God (YHWH) of Abraham; to wit, from epithets that were familiar among the pre-Islamic Arabs. Let's look at some facts from history and archaeology on this fact.
It should not come as a surprise that the word "Allah" was not something invented by Muhammad or revealed for the first time in the Quran.
The well-known Middle East scholar H.A.R. Gibb has pointed out that the reason that Muhammad never had to explain who Allah was in the Quran is that his listeners had already heard about Allah long before Muhammad was ever born .
One Muslim I have corresponded with said the following
<<"You did not see what point I have written in my last post, allow me to explain in a better way. Dhul-Qarnayn may have a meaning but in the Quran it is given as he is a sort of a king or a leader. If you understood what I have said, I have said that the"wall" of Dhul-Qarnayn. We are not talking about names and where it's origin is from, we are talking about the Quran being the truth. If you do not see this then go get more information as we all say; we never stop learning.ALLAH AS THE SUPREME GOD OF THE ANCINET PAGAN MAKKANS (RESIDENTS OF MECCA)
This section opens with a statement by a learned Muslim testifying to the fact that Allah was the supreme god of the ancient pagan Makkans (Residents of Mecca).
<<"The thing you said that about the Makkans knowing about Allah before Muhammed(S.A.W) is true. From prophet Ibrahim and Ismail to (S.A.W), Allah was was brought as the true God. The Makkans knew that Allah was a god, but they said that He was the supreme god from all the others, they would say that He was beyond the universe so they needed other small gods to transmit their prayers to Him. The Makkans were not angry at Allah but if you have searched the facts and so, they despised Muhammed(S.A.W), because they said that he was spreading the menace and dishonoring their gods. They did not say anything about Allah(S.T), for He was their supreme god and dishonoring it would bring badness over them. So we see that the other prophets before Muhammed(S.A.W) brought the information that Allah was the only true God but then, like every prophet, they listened then betrayed the prophets for their ignorance and changed it like they did to the bible, but the true religion will never fall(Islam). The prophet Muhammed(S.A.W) which had enemies but with the truth in his hands he succeeded on giving all the world the truth to save them from the hell fire, but still a lot of people do not except this as their arrogance is blinding them. You see now that the truth was given to the world, each one of the nations, but they disobeyed it and got punished for it as they didn't pass the test. Prophet Muhammed(S.A.W) brought them(Makkans) a book, he told them to worship only one god, he didn't tell them of how this god looked like and so on. This was a test for them to beleive in the truth as the shaitan will make it look as it is not the truth and everyone knew it that beleiving in something that is in the open, simple, and very understandable and not seeing of how their god looks like would be a challange but would also be rewarded greatly in the here after. Islam is the truth as they(Makkans/disbeleivers) knew that life is a test than you(an educated person) should know better.">>
So now we have established the fact that Allah was the supreme god of the ancient Makkans. Let's look at some of the facts related to the ancient pagan Makkans and their supreme pagan god Allah.
First the basic premise of this writer is false; to wit,
<<"We are not talking about names and where it's origin is from, we are talking about the Quran being the truth. If you do not see this then go get more information as we all say; we never stop learning.">>Second his admittance that with respect the old middle eastern Moon god, 'Allah,' actually being the supreme god of the none worshippers of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, the Makkans
<<"The thing you said that about the Makkans knowing about Allah before Muhammed(S.A.W) is true. From prophet Ibrahim and Ismail to (S.A.W), Allah was was brought as the true God. The Makkans knew that Allah was a god, but they said that He was the supreme god from all the others, they would say that He was beyond the universe so they needed other small gods to transmit their prayers to Him.">>Dr. Arthur Jeffery, one of the foremost Western Islamic scholars in modern times and professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies at Columbia University, notes
<<"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa">> .
The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, states, <<"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god", and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity">> .
The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, states, <<"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad">> .
And, <<"The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic.">> .
And, Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity.
Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I326, T & T Clark, states
<<"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their peculiar God.">>'
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According to the Encyclopedia of ReligionAnd, <<"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel">> .
The Encyclopedia Britannica adds, <<"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam">> .
The Encyclopedia of Islam is in agreement and say, <<"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah">> .
This same encyclopedia went on to say, <<"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities">> .
And pre-Islamic poetry attest to this fact, <<"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry">> .
And Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the very prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments
<<"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia">> .
And the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia on 02/28/2006), states, <<" Theories on the identity of Dhul-Qarnayn
According to Tafsir Ibn Kathir, a widely used 14th-century commentary on the Qur'an
"The Quraysh sent An-Nadr bin Al-Harith andUqbah bin Abi Muit to the Jewish rabbis in Al-Madinah, and told themAsk them (the rabbis) about Muhammad, and describe him to them, and tell them what he is saying. They are the people of the first Book, and they have more knowledge of the Prophets than we do.' So they set out and when they reached Al-Madinah, they asked the Jewish rabbis about the Messenger of Allah. They described him to them and told them some of what he had said. They said,You are the people of the Tawrah and we have come to you so that you can tell us about this companion of ours.' They (the rabbis) said, `Ask him about three things which we will tell you to ask, and if he answers them then he is a Prophet who has been sent (by Allah); if he does not, then he is saying things that are not true, in which case how you will deal with him will be up to you. Ask him about some young men in ancient times, what was their story For theirs is a strange and wondrous tale. Ask him about a man who travelled a great deal and reached the east and the west of the earth. What was his story And ask him about the Ruh (soul or spirit) -- what is it If he tells you about these things, then he is a Prophet, so follow him, but if he does not tell you, then he is a man who is making things up, so deal with him as you see fit.
According to Maududi's conservative 20th-century commentary
"This Surah was sent down in answer to the three questions which the mushriks of Makkah, in consultation with the people of the Book, had put to the Holy Prophet in order to test him. These were (1) Who were "the Sleepers of the Cave"? (2) What is the real story of Khidr? and (3) What do you know about Zul-Qarnain? As these three questions and the stories involved concerned the history of the Christians and the Jews, and were unknown in Hijaz, a choice of these was made to test whether the Holy Prophet possessed any source of the knowledge of the hidden and unseen things. Allah, however, not only gave a complete answer to their questions but also employed the three stories to the disadvantage of the opponents of Islam in the conflict that was going on at that time at Makkah between Islam and un-belief.">>See Part Two of Starjade is Correct on Allah
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Part Two of Who Really Is 'Allah' The Supreme God Of The Makkans
ACCEPTANCE BY MUHAMMAD OF THE MAKKAH'S SUPREME GOD DID NOT MEAN PEACE WITH THE MAKKAH.
Let's consider the Attack by the Makkans against Muhammad by an impeccable Muslim source.
"The Prophet, after arriving in Madinah, first formed an alliance with the Jews. Next, he approached all the nearby tribes and tried to persuade them to make an alliance or at least enter into a no-war pact. Many did. Thus the small group evicted from Makkah assumed strategic importance.The Makkans who had earlier planned to kill the Prophet, were now determined to annihilate this nascent community of Islam. Having failed in all other ways they decided on a military solution...
As soon as the Hudaybiyah Treaty was signed, the Prophet sent letters to various neighbouring Arab and non-Arab rulers, including Chosroes of Iran and Heraclitus of the Byzantine Empire. He invited them to Islam, and assured them that he did not covet their kingdoms or riches. They could retain both, but only if they surrendered themselves to serve and worship the One God.The Quraysh, however, soon broke the Treaty of Hudaybiyah. It was, thus, time to deal with their continuing hostility. The Prophet marched to Makkah, and captured the town. The fall of Makkah witnessed unparalleled acts of mercy forgiveness and generosity. Not a single drop of blood was shed. Everybody who remained indoors was granted security of life and property. The Prophet forgave all who had been his bitterest foes all his life, who had persecuted him and planned to kill him, who had driven him out of Makkah, and who had marched thrice to Madinah to defeat the Muslims.
Also, <<"It had become impossible for the Prophet (peace be upon him) to preach and for the ummah to live securely in Makkah.">>
And, <<"Tawheed al-'Ebaadah (Maintaining The Unity of Worship)
In spite of the wide implications of the first two categories of Tawheed, firm belief in them alone is not sufficient to fulfill the Islamic requirements of Tawheed. Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah and Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat must be accompanied by their complement, Tawheed al-'Ebaadah, in order for Tawheed to be considered complete according to Islaam. This point is substantiated by the fact that Allaah Himself has related in clear terms that the Mushrikoon (idolators) of the Prophet's time confirmed many aspects of the first two forms of Tawheed. In the Qur'aan Allaah tells the Prophet (saws) to say to the pagans
"Say 'Who is it that gives you all sustenance from the sky and earth, governs sight and hearing, brings forth life from dead (matter) and death from the living, and plans the affairs of man?' They will all say 'Allaah'."35
"If you asked them who created them, they would surely say, 'Allaah' "36
"If you asked them who brings down water from the sky and with it brings the earth to life after its death? They will most certainly say, 'Allaah'."37The pagan Makkans all knew that Allaah was their creator, sustainer, their Lord and Master yet that knowledge did not make them Muslims according to God. In fact,">>
WHAT GOD REALLY IS THE MOON GOD ALLAH?
Let's look at the facts from renown historical writings
"Namely that "Allah" is synonymous with the god Hubal of the pagan Makkans! ... Generally, objects of worship belonged to three genres metal and wooden" .
And, "At the time of Muhammad, the Ka'abah was OFFICIALLY DEDICATED to the god Hubal, a deity who had been imported into Arabia from the Nabateans in what is now Jordan. But the pre-eminence of the shrine as well as the common belief in Mecca seems to suggest that it may have been dedicated originally to al-Llah, the High God of the Arabs ..." , pp. 61-62;]
And, "Pre-Islamic Arabia also had its stone deities. They were stone statues of shapeless volcanic or meteoric stones found in the deserts and believed to have been sent by astral deities. The most prominent deities were Hubal, the male god of the Ka'ba, and the three sister goddesses al-Lat, al-Manat, and al-Uzza; Muhammad's tribe, the Quraysh, thought these three goddesses to be the daughters of Allah. Hubal was the chief god of the Ka'ba among 360 other deities. He was a man-like statue whose body was made of red precious stone and whose arms were of solid gold. (George W. Braswell, Jr., Islam Its Prophets, Peoples, Politics and Power" , p. 44]
And, "The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to other titles that could be given to him.
Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called "the daughters of Allah." These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.
The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as 'high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities.
Along with Allah, however, they worshipped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Al-lah'" ".
These female puppet celestial goddess, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, "These were also called 'the Daughters of Allah' and were supposed to intercede before God. When the Apostle of God was sent, God revealed unto him the following"
And, "In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars such as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah! .
And, "The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic." .
Allah was also known as Hubel, ""Among the gods worshiped by the Quraysh, the greatest was Hubal
...
Some additional details on this cleromantic deity, the most powerful of the pagan idols of Mecca, is supplied by the Meccan historian Azraqi ...
Amr ibn Luhayy brought with him (to Mecca) an idol called Hubal from the land of Hit in Mesopotamia. Hubal was one of the Quraysh's greatest idols so he set it up at the well inside the Kab'a and ordered the people to worship it. Thus a man coming back from a journey would visit it and circumambulate the House before going to his family, and would shave his hair before it ... ", pp. 24-25]And, ""Khuza 'ah thus shared the guilt of Jurhum. They were also to blame in other respects a chieftain of theirs, on his way back from a journey to SYRIA, had asked the MOABITES to give him ONE OF THEIR IDOLS. They gave him HUBAL, which he brought back to the Sanctuary, setting it up within the Ka'bah itself; and it became THE CHIEF IDOL OF MECCA." .
And this Hubel or Allah the Moon god is indicated to be known by others as the Biblically condemned god, 'Baal.' Commenting on 'Abd al-Muttalib's rediscovery of the well of Zamzam and its treasures, Lings writes
"... So 'Abd al-Muttalib continued to dig without any actual move being made to stop him; and some of the people were already leaving the sanctuary when suddenly he struck the well's stone covering and uttered a cry of thanksgiving to God. The crowd reassembled and increased; and when he began to dig out the treasure which Jurhum had buried there, everyone claimed the right to share in it. 'Abd al-Muttalib agreed that lots should be cast for each object, as to whether it should be kept in the sanctuary or go to him personally or be divided amongst the tribe. This had become the recognised way of deciding an issue of doubt, and it was done by means of divining arrows inside the Ka'bah, in front of THE MOABITE IDOL HUBAL ..." (Lings, p. 11; bold and capital emphasis ours)
'Amr then asked them to give him an idol he could take to Arab lands where it could be worshipped, and they gave him one named Hubal. This he brought to Mecca and set on a pedestal and ordered the people to worship and venerate it. (The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume I, translated by professor Trevor Le Gassick, reviewed by Dr. Ahmed Fareed" , p. 42]Interestingly, Ibn Kathir shows that the god of Muhammad's family was Hubal, and that his grandfather even prayed to Allah by facing Hubal's idol! Ibn Ishaq stated, "It is claimed that when 'Abd al-Mutallib received such opposition from Quraysh over the digging of zamzam, he vowed that if ten sons were born to him who grew up and protected him, he would sacrifice one of them for God at the ka'ba."
"Eventually he had ten sons grown up whom he knew would give him protection. Their names were al-Harith, al-Zubayr, Hajl, Dirar, al-Muqawwim, Abu Lahab, al-'Abbas, Hamza, Abu Talib, and 'Abd Allah. He assembled them and told them of his vow and asked them to honour his pledge to God, Almighty and All-glorious is He. They obeyed, and asked him what he wanted them to do. He asked each of them to take an arrow, write his name on it and return to him.
"They did so and went with them inside the ka'ba to the site of their god Hubal, where there was the well in which offerings to the ka'ba would be placed. There, near Hubal, were seven arrows which they would use for divining a judgement over some matter of consequence, a question of blood-money, kinship, or the like. They would come to Hubal to seek a resolution, accepting whatever they were ordered to do or to refrain from." ."Allah (allah, al-ilah, the god) was the principal, though not the only, deity of Makkah. The name is an ancient one. It occurs in two South Arabic inscriptions, one a Minean found at al-'Ula and the other Sabean, but abounds in the form HLH in the Lihyanite inscriptions of the fifth century B.C. Lihyan, which evidently got the god from Syria, was the first center of the worship of this deity in Arabia. The name occurs as Hallah in the Safa inscriptions five centuries before Islam and also in a pre-Islamic Christian Arabic inscription found in umm-al-Jimal, Syria, and ascribed to the sixth century. The name of Muhammad's father was 'Abd-Allah ('Abdullah, the slave or worshiper of Allah). The esteem in which Allah was held by the pre-Islamic Makkans as the creator and supreme provider and the one to be invoked in time of special peril may be inferred from such koranic passages as 3124, 31; 6137, 109; 1023. Evidently he was the tribal deity of the Quraysh." , pp. 100-101].
And, "Ibn Kathir noted that Muhammad's family worshiped Hubal, with the Oxford Dictionary of Islam stating that Hubal was the Quraysh's patron deity. If Hitti is correct regarding Allah being the Quraysh's' tribal deity then this provides additional proof that Allah was a name for Hubal. Note the following syllogism
- Hubal was the chief deity of the Quraysh.
- Allah was the chief deity of the Quraysh.
- Therefore, Hubal was Allah in pre-Islamic times.
There is another indirect piece of evidence which links Allah to Baal. Writer, Franz Rosenthal, while commenting on the mass confusion which surrounded the Muslims regarding the precise meaning of as-samad (Cf. 1122), posits a possible origin for the word. He says
... There is enough room for suspicion to permit us having a look at some outside evidence.There, we encounter a noteworthy phenomenon the not infrequent religious connotation of the root smd.
In Ugaritic, smd appears as a stick or club that is wielded by Ba'l. In the Kilammu inscription, line 15, we find b'l smd, apparently, b'l as the owner of his divine club. In the Bible, the adherence of the Israelites to Baal of Peor is expressed by the nip'al of the root smd. The verb is translated by the Septuagint heteleuse (Numeri 253, 5; Ps. 1062. The use of the verb doubtlessly reflects North Canaanite religious terminology.
From Arabic sources, we learn that an idol of 'Ad was allegedly called samud, which brings us rather close to the environment of Muhammad
...
In view of this material, the suggestion may be made that as-samad in the Qur'an is a survival of an ancient Northwest Semitic religious term, which may no longer have been understood by Muhammad himself, nor by the old poets (if the sawahid should be genuine). This suggestion would well account for the presence of the article with the word in the Qur'an, and it would especially well account for the hesitation of the commentators vis-a-vis so prominent a passage. Such hesitation is what we would expect if we are dealing with a pagan survival from the early period of the revelation."Let's face it the proper name 'Allah' was much in use in pre-Islamic times and applied to pagan deities, now it is shown that 'Allah' is indicated to be the same as the pagan deity condemned by the Bible, 'Baal.'
"Allah, the paramount deity of pagan Arabia, was the target of worhip in varying degrees of intensity from the southernmost tip of Arabia to the Mediterranean. To the Babylonians he was "Il" (god); to the Canaanites, and later the Israelites, he was "El"; the South Arabians worshiped him as "Ilah," and the Bedouins as "al-Ilah" (the deity). With Muhammad he becomes Allah, God of the Worlds, of all believers, the one and only who admits of no associates or consorts in the worship of Him. Judaic and Christian concepts of God abetted the transformation of Allah from a pagan deity to the God of all monotheists. There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that "Allah" passed to the Muslims from Christians and Jews."CONCLUSION
Clearly Islam owes term 'Allah' to the pagan/heathen Arabs. "We have evidence that it entered into numerous personal names in Northern Arabia and among the Nabatians. It occurs among the Arabs of later times, in theophorus names and on its own. Wellhausen also cites pre-Islamic literature where Allah is mentioned as a great deity. We also have the testimony of the Koran itself where He is recognized as a giver of rain, a creator, and so on; the Meccans only crime was to worship other gods beside Him. Eventually, Allah was only applied to the Supreme Deity. "In any case it is an extremely important fact that Muhammad did not find it necessary to introduce an altogether novel deity, but contented himself with ridding the heathen Allah of his companions subjecting him to a kind of dogmatic purification ... Had he not been accustomed from his youth to the idea of Allah as the Supreme God, in particular of Mecca, it may well be doubted whether he would ever have come forward as the preacher of Monotheism."
Ibn Warraq continues on, "Interesting is the name HUBAL (in Arabic and Hebrew script the vowels were not noted). This shows a very suspicious connection to the Hebrew HABAAL (= the Baal). As we all know this was an idol mentioned in the Bible (Num. 253, Hosea 910, Deut. 43, Josh. 2217 and Ps. 10628-29). Where was Baal worshipped? In Moab! It was the "god of fertility". Amr ibn Luhaiy brought Hubal from Moab to Arabia.
The name 'Allah' (from 'al-Ilah' - the god or 'al-Liah' = the one worshipped) was well used in pre-Islamic times. It was rather a title than a name and, was used for a diversity of deities. As we shall see later, an idol called Hubal was addressed as Allah. Muhammad's grandfather reportedly prayed to Hubal and addressed him as Allah. The deities al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were called "the daughters of Allah" (Surah 5319). "Allah was viewed, already before Muhammad, as the Lord of the Ka'ba, while, if not surely, but very probably, this sanctuary was devoted to Hubal, whose image was placed inside" (RESTE ARABISCHEN HEIDENTHUMS, p. 221 by J. Wellhausen). "While the rituals performed are still addressed to the respective deities, Allah is seen as the creator, the father and with that the superior Lord. But he is viewed to be too general, neutral and impersonal a Lord" .
Therefore, "But the vague notion of Supreme (NOT SOLE) divinity which Allah seems to have connoted in Meccan religion was to BECOME both universal and transcendental; it was to be turned by the Kur'anic preaching, into the affirmation of the living God, the Exalted One." .
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
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Hmm, has Starjade ascended to the Holy Veil of the Scary Dark Abyss Of Cut and Paste From Christian Sites?
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Hi OPF
Starjade is not a Christian and fits neither definition of ?Christian.? As I said elsewhereMany in false religions of many and various types from those with false gods such as the Trinity have mental blinders on and can not see the truth with respect their respective religions. But first let's clarify some terms I shall be using in what to some will be a special sense or usage.
Apostate = any religious group including all denominations and/or sects of that group who worship false gods or goddesses of any type.
Christian = a term used in two very distinct and mutually exclusive ways. (1) A genuine (true) worshiper who worships the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Noah, Moses, etc., the creator of all there is, in strict conformity with Exodus 203, an absolute monotheist, a real follower of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ in practice and not just in name. (2) One who belongs to any of the denominations and/or sects that fell away from genuine (true) Christianity after the passing of the apostles that was foretold by 2Thessalonians 23, "let no man beguile you in any wise for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition," (American Standard Version; ASV), one who worships other god(s) not mentioned as a true god in the Bible such as the Trinity.
False religion = One who does not worship the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Noah, Moses, etc., the creator of all there is, but worships some other god or god(s) or idols or goddesses.
All religions believe they are correct, yet they are all different; thus, they can not all be correct - only one can be., which can be read in its entirety at,
http//religioustruths.proboards59.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=babylonthegreat&thread=1190172986
Now, carefully note the two entirely different definitions of a ?Christian.?
Definition 2 above is for what commonly passes as ?Christian? but is not as they are not genuine (true) followers of Christ, believe in a false ?three-in-one-god? ? the Trinity, and engage in worldly wars, etc. Very similar to Islam.
Definition 1 deals with the genuine (true) followers that are monotheistic and ONLY worship one god, Almighty God (YHWH) the creator of all there is, do NOT engage in worldly wars, etc.
As you should see, you were in error with respect understanding reality, the truth, per John 832, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
However, Starjade is an expert on Islam.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
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I see. So Starjade is an infidel?
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Hi OPF
Now what would make Starjade any more an infidel than yourself? The Inspired Word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, the creator of all there is clearly says at John 146, ?Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.? (American Standard Version; ASV), so think about this reality per John 832, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
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Hi OPF
Now what would make Starjade any more an infidel than yourself? The Inspired Word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, the creator of all there is clearly says at John 146, ?Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.? (American Standard Version; ASV), so think about this reality per John 832, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
So both of us are infidels? Awesome! ;D
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Hi OPF
Figure it out for yourself, but I will give you a hint from the Inspired Word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, creator of all there is found at 1 Timothy 25, ?For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;? (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
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Hi OPF
Figure it out for yourself, but I will give you a hint from the Inspired Word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, creator of all there is found at 1 Timothy 25, ?For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;? (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
No, I want a definitive answer. Are we infidels or not? Neither accept "Jesus Christ" as God or any such derivative.
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Hi OPF
First, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ is NOT his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, creator of all there is.
Second, The definitive answer rest with him whom the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, appointed the judge of mankind per John 522, ?For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son? (Authorized King James Bible; AV), and not I. Think about it.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
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Hi OPF
First, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ is NOT his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, creator of all there is.
Second, The definitive answer rest with him whom the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob, creator of all there is, appointed the judge of mankind per John 522, ?For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son? (Authorized King James Bible; AV), and not I. Think about it.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
Now you got me confused
The definitive answer rests with the true God.
All judgement is committed unto the sonSo, God does not jusdge us, but his son?
Jesus is the son of God?
If I do not believe Jesus is the son of God, what is he going to judge me?