Virgin Birth of Isa
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Salam,
Arnold...you seem to IGNORE actual QURAN and Gospel scripture
and RELY HEAVILY on Commentators, and so called scholars.
BUT.....The QURAN AND GOSPEL SCRIPTURES speak loud and clear on the issue,
and TO ME that is the authority in this (and all) matters.
Peace,
- The word parthenos is the greek for ahmal/young woman and betulah/virgin, it is unclear thus which original word was used.
- Jews in that time had weird rules what they considered a virgin, a woman married before her first menstruation was considered a virgin even though she had sex.
- It is clear from critical Bible study that the oldest parts of the New Testament completely ignore a concept of virgin birth.
- The Bible to me is the same as Hadith, a historical story written with a specific goal in mind on how to display history, is what is called Salvation history in Theology.
- In the 1st century there were many religious groups that believed in a salvation-god born from a virgin, many of these groups took up the Jesus story and made it their own with their own theology, this is what made Christianity today. Roman Catholicism is just the Apollo/Sol Invictus movement that bases its doctrine now on Judeo scriptures instead of Roman legends.
The Qur'an is very clear to me, and to me it doesn't present a virgin-birth, and I am not alone this not only on this forum, but also many great Muslim scholars from past and present agree with it. But this is not said to make power to the arguments with numbers, just that I am not the one who came first with these conclusions, I just agree with them.
You try to escape-goat your way out of this by saying the "Gospel" is clear on this but that is not true if you keep in mind the above list I gave which is just clear science. So your confidence is only based on faulty translations and misunderstandings of a salvation history, not a true revelation by God. Some real words of Jesus have ended up in there, but I'm careful with how they are presented.
To also use the escape-goat of "commentators" vs YOUR interpretation being the real message will not cut it either.
So maybe it is just time to admit it is maybe, really maybe, possible that the story CAN be approached differently, you don't need to accept it, just accepting that it is maybe not all that ABSOLUTE as you try to present.
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<< Mark 6 >>
Young's Literal Translation
1 And he went forth thence, and came to his own country, and his disciples do follow him, 2 and sabbath having come, he began in the synagogue to teach, and many hearing were astonished, saying, 'Whence hath this one these things? and what the wisdom that was given to him, that also such mighty works through his hands are done? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?' -- and they were being stumbled at him. 4 And Jesus said to them -- 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his kindred, and in his own house;' 5 and he was not able there any mighty work to do, except on a few infirm people having put hands he did heal them; 6 and he wondered because of their unbelief. And he was going round the villages, in a circle, teaching,This only says he is the son of Mary. Maybe his father had died already? Or if you look at the first sentence, he was back in his own country, maybe where his mother came from, and so it is logical they refer to her since she was known to them? If I go to my mom's family, they know me there and address me as the son of Mary (my mom's name is Mary, no pun intended), and not as the son of Willem. When I go to people who know my father, they refer to me as the son of Willem.
Maryam 1927-30
Faatat bihi qawmaha tahmiluhu qaloo ya maryamu laqad ji/ti shay-an fariyyan
So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
The verse only says
- This only says she went to her family for the first time after the birth. Means they haven't seen Mary for very long, nor lived near where Mary had stayed otherwise they would have heard she was pregnant. This implies also that Mary was under a different caretaker, which can explain why they didn't know she was married to a specific person.
- The verse says Baggihiya, which means anything that exceeds cultural or moral grounds. It doesn't need to directly address sexual misconduct, it can also refer to cultural rules being broken, which can imply that she broke the customs of her family, the Temple or that she married someone which she shouldn't had married, the bashara/human who came to her as a messenger.
Peace
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Arnold!
I will use Samia answer to make your argument wrong
"Nen Abaahim" does not mean Fathers, according to Samia.Now, answer her argument, or will you avoid?
Peace,
No, it can imply both mother and father. So both his father and mother were blessed. Still the verse doesn't change in its directness.
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I think some people answered this one to you in the following thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16837.75
But you did not Get IT, or Get the other arguments.
The thread shows only YOU and it doesn't even discuss the subject.
Arnold the following is what Marie wrote
"1917. She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
Faittakhathat min doonihim hijabanfaarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan"So he was a human....verse is clear.
Now, the Bible is not OK
Such a childish way... I only used the Bible to show that the earliest Christians didn't knew the concept of virgin-birth as later Christians, this is also why the oldest parts don't mention it. You know this since I mentioned this twice already, but you try to hang on to every little scrap of arguments, doesn't matter how silly or circular they are. Shows you are running out of arguments...
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The verse only says
- This only says she went to her family for the first time after the birth. Means they haven't seen Mary for very long, nor lived near where Mary had stayed otherwise they would have heard she was pregnant. This implies also that Mary was under a different caretaker, which can explain why they didn't know she was married to a specific person.
- The verse says Baggihiya, which means anything that exceeds cultural or moral grounds. It doesn't need to directly address sexual misconduct, it can also refer to cultural rules being broken, which can imply that she broke the customs of her family, the Temple or that she married someone which she shouldn't had married, the bashara/human who came to her as a messenger.
Maryam 1926 -30
So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the Merciful, a fast, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human. So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
Why not speak to anyone?
Why carrying him?
Why point to him to speak?No comment on the human gigolo
According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court" ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.
Jews accused the same and were chastised in Qur'an...
4156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.
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Maryam 1926 -30
So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the Merciful, a fast, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human. So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
Why not speak to anyone?
Why carrying him?
Why point to him to speak?No comment on the human gigolo )
According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court" ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.
Jews accused the same and were chastised in Qur'an...
4156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.
I clearly say that I believe she was MARRIED to the person and this is what offended her family. And a child cannot speak, so it means Jesus was already at an age he could speak. talking from the cradle is a metaphor that was common in Jewish culture.
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I clearly say that I believe she was MARRIED to the person and this is what offended her family. And a child cannot speak, so it means Jesus was already at an age he could speak. talking from the cradle is a metaphor that was common in Jewish culture.
Where does it say she was MARRIED to that person and this is what offended her family?
If he was at speaking age, why did she carry him, not speak, and point to him?
If metaphor why did they ask ? ?How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?"
HOW is a question not a metaphoric statement!
Peace
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Where does it say she was MARRIED to that person and this is what offended her family?
If he was at speaking age, why did she carry him, not speak, and point to him?
If metaphor why did they ask ? ?How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?"
HOW is a question not a metaphoric statement!
Peace
Peace,
The marriage-part has been discussed before, please look it up.
A young person who was unmarried and had no beard was seen as a child in orthodox culture. They ask Mary a serious question and then she points to her son, who they see as not having the right to speak up since he is not seen as a man but as a child. How old Jesus exactly was when addressed in this verse I do not know, but a child cannot be a Prophet since he would not be taken seriously, nor could he defend himself in a threatening situation.
Nor could a child pay Zakat...
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Peace,
The marriage-part has been discussed before, please look it up.
No, you show it to me -- it's not anywhere in Qur'an.
A young person who was unmarried and had no beard was seen as a child in orthodox culture. They ask Mary a serious question and then she points to her son, who they see as not having the right to speak up since he is not seen as a man but as a child.
Why did she point to him?
Had no beard and she carried him, right?How old Jesus exactly was when addressed in this verse I do not know, but a child cannot be a Prophet since he would not be taken seriously, nor could he defend himself in a threatening situation.
Are you saying he was NOT a prophet, needs to learn martial arts, and God is not a protector?
Nor could a child pay Zakat...
Where does it say zakat is all about money and we are to start paying immediately as babies?
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Peace,
Let's take 1 subject at the time.
Why did she point to him?
Had no beard and she carried him, right?The word Hamala does not only mean "To carry something". it also means " To show"
= Haa-Miim-La = bore it, carried it, took it up, carried it, convey, show/manifest, carry a thing upon one's back or head, bear a burden, become pregnant with or conceive a child (woman), to go about spreading calumny or slander, give someone a beast to ride, mount someone upon a beast of burden, show or manifest anger, task or fatigue oneself, take a responsibility upon oneself, incite someone to do a thing, produce or put forth something , narrate and write down a thing , carry or do a thing, bear the burden of a calumny, to charge with a crime.
Are you saying he was NOT a prophet, needs to learn martial arts, and God is not a protector?
- Would you listen to a child?
- Prophethood mostly comes when they are adults as can be seen throughout the Quran.
- We can also see being a Prophet is a very dangerous job and also needs certain wisdom and experience to carry out the job.
- God protects through guidance/wahi.
Where does it say zakat is all about money and we are to start paying immediately as babies?
Doesn't matter if you understand it as "betterment" in any form, a child cannot do this in a way that it affects society. Especially in such a patriarchical culture as the Jews of the 1st century.
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Peace,
The word Hamala does not only mean "To carry something". it also means " To show"
Alright, let?s see how this definition fits context?
After some years she came ?to show? him and they were upset, hurling insults?
"You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute.
Where was the husband/father?
Why was she told not to speak and pointed to the child to speak on her behalf instead?- Would you listen to a child?
Yes.
- Prophethood mostly comes when they are adults as can be seen throughout the Quran.
Yes, mostly means there are exceptions...
1912 You John/Yahya, take The Book with power/strength, and We gave/brought him the judgment/rule (as) a boy/child/infant.
- We can also see being a Prophet is a very dangerous job and also needs certain wisdom and experience to carry out the job.
- God protects through guidance/wahi.
Yes, God protects with infinite combinations and other means including human protectors, etc.
Doesn't matter if you understand it as "betterment" in any form, a child cannot do this in a way that it affects society. Especially in such a patriarchical culture as the Jews of the 1st century.
Each gives charity according to their means; obviously a child is at a disadvantage.
Where does it say a child has to do this right away else it negates being a prophet child?
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peace,
Peace,
Alright, lets see how this definition fits context
After some years she came to show him and they were upset, hurling insults?
"You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute.
Where was the husband/father?
Why was she told not to speak and pointed to the child to speak on her behalf instead?- Dead? Maybe this is also why she went to her family?
- Maybe he was old enough to speak for himself in her eyes?
Yes.
Yes, mostly means there are exceptions...
1912 You John/Yahya, take The Book with power/strength, and We gave/brought him the judgment/rule (as) a boy/child/infant.
Getting wisdom is not immediately the same as being a Prophet.
Yes, God protects with infinite combinations and other means including human protectors, etc.
Yes, but this gives a bit of a "Total Recall" idea of hiding the small wise one
Each gives charity according to their means; obviously a child is at a disadvantage.
Where does it say a child has to do this right away else it negates being a prophet child?
Where does it say it doesn't?
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Peace,
- Dead? Maybe this is also why she went to her family?
- Maybe he was old enough to speak for himself in her eyes?
Maybe a baby. angel
Getting wisdom is not immediately the same as being a Prophet.
Yes, but this gives a bit of a "Total Recall" idea of hiding the small wise one
Where does it say it doesn't?
Fact is...
He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
peace
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Peace,
Maybe a baby. angel
Fact is...
He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
peace
Yes, but it is not a fact that speaking from the cradle directly means a baby is speaking. To me it is a clear metaphor.
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Peace belalhammad,
So what you're saying is there's only one occurrence of either ibn or bint a male name, and only one occurrence of either ibn or bint a female name - is this correct?
Yes, and hundreds of "Bani", which means the same, "Sons and daughters".
Thus, one occurrence of Son of Female, one Occurrence of Son of Male, one occurrence of dauoghter of Male, and hundereds of occurrence of Sons and Daughters of Male.
The thread shows only YOU and it doesn't even discuss the subject.
No, read it again (you seam you forget too much and overlook things)
So he was a human....verse is clear.
The 19-17 verse says "God made the spirt to look like Human".
I think you know that it says that, but you are trying to twist the truth, as usual.Such a childish way... I only used the Bible to show that the earliest Christians didn't knew the concept of virgin-birth as later Christians, this is also why the oldest parts don't mention it. You know this since I mentioned this twice already, but you try to hang on to every little scrap of arguments, doesn't matter how silly or circular they are. Shows you are running out of arguments...
hmm
Peace,
No, it can imply both mother and father. So both his father and mother were blessed. Still the verse doesn't change in its directness.
So you mean the word "Abaahom in verse 6-88" is not a Well-Established-Meaning-word?
Then how can you use a verse that is not well-establish to Cancel out many well-established verses that supports Jesus Virgin Birth;
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND. brickwall
Did I tell you before that God says in 3-6 that anyone do that is a SICK PERSON with a WICKED HEART.
NOW, according to you and Samia, verse 6-88 and 87 are not desicive verses.
So you are left with one verse, which is 3-55, that you are using to support your Wicked THEORY.
Question, why God compaired the creation of Jesus by Adam in 3-55?
Why God did not compaire him by Ibrham, or Moses, or Davied?
What are the different between the creation of Moses and Adam? -
Peace belalhammad,
Yes, and hundreds of "Bani", which means the same, "Sons and daughters".
Thus, one occurrence of Son of Female, one Occurrence of Son of Male, one occurrence of dauoghter of Male, and hundereds of occurrence of Sons and Daughters of Male.
True. And how many significant (regarding our guidance) females are even mentioned in the qur'an? If we're going to use the mention of ibn Maryam as any sort of measuring stick in surmising whether it's out of the ordinary to call one by his/her mother's name, then a ratio should be used - not a tally.
So, I pose that you count up all the males mentioned in the qur'an and get a percentage of how many of them are referred to as the subject of "ibn, bint, bani", etc. Then do the same for females. I'm saying "you" because this is what your posing as proof.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
The 19-17 verse says "God made the spirt to look like Human".
I think you know that it says that, but you are trying to twist the truth, as usual.He made the Ruh come in the form of a human. So we must first discuss Ruh, as spirit is not a direct translation of the word, nor is it limited to that.
I would be a bit more careful with your "as usual" 's since you already had to back down in the Raheem thread.
So you mean the word "Abaahom in verse 6-88" is not a Well-Established-Meaning-word?
Then how can you use a verse that is not well-establish to Cancel out many well-established verses that supports Jesus Virgin Birth;
Show me first well-established verses that support the virgin birth as till now only subjective interpretations have been presented.
Question, why God compaired the creation of Jesus by Adam in 3-55?
Why God did not compaire him by Ibrham, or Moses, or Davied?
What are the different between the creation of Moses and Adam?Because Adam means Mankind in Old Arabic, so he doesn't compare it with one human, but with all of us so there wouldn't be any mistakes. If a comparison was made with Abraham or Moses people would have found a way to make Abraham and Moses also be born by a virgin. Because Muslims have Christian theology in their mind when reading the Quran. A good example already for that is your belief that deeds are not enough while the Quran clearly states the opposite. This is Christian theology, not Quranic theology.
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Peace,
He made the Ruh come in the form of a human. So we must first discuss Ruh, as spirit is not a direct translation of the word, nor is it limited to that.
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They ask thee concerning the Spirit (Al-Roh). Say "The Spirit (Al-Roh) by command of my Lord, and the knowledge that is communicated to you (men) is little (about Roh) (17-85)So, are you claiming you have knowledge of Roh more than what is communicated in Quran, Bible, and Torah.
I would be a bit more careful with your "as usual" 's since you already had to back down in the Raheem thread.
Not me, I think you are confused (as usual)
Show me first well-established verses that support the virgin birth as till now only subjective interpretations have been presented.
God will show you and not me; here are three well-established verses for a start
(٧ (٨ (٩
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them then We sent to her Our Spirit (Rohana), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (19-17)
She said "I seek refuge from thee to Most Gracious, if thou dost fear Allah." (1 He said "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord to thee (Le-Aheb) the gift of a holy son." (19)Because Adam means Mankind in Old Arabic, so he doesn't compare it with one human, but with all of us so there wouldn't be any mistakes. If a comparison was made with Abraham or Moses people would have found a way to make Abraham and Moses also be born by a virgin. Because Muslims have Christian theology in their mind when reading the Quran. A good example already for that is your belief that deeds are not enough while the Quran clearly states the opposite. This is Christian theology, not Quranic theology.
No, you are wrong as usual; Let God tell you what is the commen thing of Jesus and Adam Creation
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And her who guarded her chastity We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples. (21-91)
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"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." (15-29)Both were created by "Breathed from God's Spirit" "Nafaka Min Roh Allah".
Because Adam means Mankind in Old Arabic, so he doesn't compare it with one human, but with all of us so there wouldn't be any mistakes.
ADAM Means ADAM in any language, as Arnold Means Arnold in any Language.
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Peace belalhammad,
True. And how many significant (regarding our guidance) females are even mentioned in the qur'an?
Salam Tay
Only one Femal were used to call a Human being, "Jesus the Son Of Mary".But all others were called by a Male. Thus, the count would be 1 for Female to 100s for Male.
Peace
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Peace belalhammad,
You're avoiding the question -
How many significant females are mentioned in the qur'an in comparison to their mention as someone's mother, versus males mentioned versus their mention as someone's mother. If you're not up to it, I'll summarize for you. The ratio of women mentioned versus their mention as mothers far exceeds the ratio of males. Thus, any and all correlation to some kind of cultural precedence is null and void.Peace,
Tay