Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws
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259 But, the transgressors altered the meaning of the word they had
been given, and changed their attitude of humility and perseverance. So,
We brought down upon the transgressors consequences from the
heaven for, they infringed repeatedly (drifted away from the
commandments).Arnold Yasin,
To me it seems like God sent down punishment right from the heavens; something like meteors or stones etc.
How does this fit in with your position
- God never intervenes (although He can) with the universe other than revelations/intuitions.
If your theory in true then meteors did not simply came down because people disobeyed God. Meteors were suppose to come down any way; irrespective of how people behaved. We cannot label this catastrophic event as "punishment".
There are tons of past events that needs to be explained in the light of this new paradigm. This is just one example that came up while doing my regular reading.
I have read your complete article "Evolution of Thinking". I found it interesting and refreshing.
Peace
Rover
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peace
Rover, It could be that god knew our results when we was created , so he made the surrounding effect to be specialy that meteor from heaven.
just a thought dough, but i remember some time i saw a verse say that god knew our outcome before we was born, or something like that i can't remember which verse dough.
Ghazal could you please explain why you are confused ??
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peace
Rover, It could be that god knew our results when we was created , so he made the surrounding effect to be specialy that meteor from heaven.
just a thought dough, but i remember some time i saw a verse say that god knew our outcome before we was born,
god is able to know our outcome due to the following practice
Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Number 6393
'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported Evil one is he who is evil in the womb of his mother and the good one is he who takes lesson from the (fate of) others. The narrator came to a person from amongst the Companion of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who was called Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari and said How can a person be an evil one without (committing an evil) deed? Thereupon the person said to him You are surprised at this, whereas I have heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saving When forty nights pass after the semen gets into the womb, Allah sends the angel and gives him the shape. Then he creates his sense of hearing, sense of sight, his skin, his flesh, his bones, and then says My Lord, would he be male or female ? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that also and then says My Lord, what about his age? And your Lord decides as He likes it and the angel puts it down. Then he says My Lord, what about his livelihood? And then the Lord decides as He likes and the angel writes it down, and then the angel gets out with his scroll of destiny in his hand and nothing is added to it and nothing is subtracted from it.
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god is able to know our outcome due to the following practice
Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Number 6393
'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported Evil one is he who is evil in the womb of his mother and the good one is he who takes lesson from the (fate of) others. The narrator came to a person from amongst the Companion of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who was called Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari and said How can a person be an evil one without (committing an evil) deed? Thereupon the person said to him You are surprised at this, whereas I have heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saving When forty nights pass after the semen gets into the womb, Allah sends the angel and gives him the shape. Then he creates his sense of hearing, sense of sight, his skin, his flesh, his bones, and then says My Lord, would he be male or female ? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that also and then says My Lord, what about his age? And your Lord decides as He likes it and the angel puts it down. Then he says My Lord, what about his livelihood? And then the Lord decides as He likes and the angel writes it down, and then the angel gets out with his scroll of destiny in his hand and nothing is added to it and nothing is subtracted from it.
RasulHamza
Peace
I can see how God decides after 40 days about the age and livelihood. However the gender is already stamped on the sperm that fertilized the egg on day 0. This scientific fact is in direct contradiction with the saying you have quoted.
Rover
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259 But, the transgressors altered the meaning of the word they had
been given, and changed their attitude of humility and perseverance. So,
We brought down upon the transgressors consequences from the
heaven for, they infringed repeatedly (drifted away from the
commandments).Arnold Yasin,
To me it seems like God sent down punishment right from the heavens; something like meteors or stones etc.
How does this fit in with your position
- God never intervenes (although He can) with the universe other than revelations/intuitions.
If your theory in true then meteors did not simply came down because people disobeyed God. Meteors were suppose to come down any way; irrespective of how people behaved. We cannot label this catastrophic event as "punishment".
There are tons of past events that needs to be explained in the light of this new paradigm. This is just one example that came up while doing my regular reading.
I have read your complete article "Evolution of Thinking". I found it interesting and refreshing.
Peace
Rover
Peace Rover,
When it comes to Qur' an interpretation, we mostly think in short term effects, while for example, a day for God is a thousand years. Also it is important to both use nature (3191) and the whole Qur'anic message to understand each verse.
What is Revelation? It is an explanation of the workings of the universe, so we will know the laws that make a society succesful (3110, 611, 6165, 224, when a society deviates and becomes oppressors, only then will the laws of cause and effect turn against a nation (11117). This is God's Sunnah, His way of handling nations.
1827 Convey to them whatever of this Book is revealed
to you from your Lord. None can alter His Words. And you will find
no refuge other than Him.3338 There could be no difficulty to any prophet in what God has
assigned to him as a duty. That was God?s law for those who passed on
before. And the commandment of God is a determined decree.As 11117 clearly states that God will not punish a people as long as they are Muslihoon, reformers in their society, the Zulm refered to in 259 clearly means they were violators of human rights. Oppression will eventually ALWAYS turn against them. We can see that with any nation that oppresses people.
The Qur'an orders us to investigate nature so we can understand God and His System (3191), He also says there are no flaws in His Design (506), and that there is no change in His Kalimaat, Decrees and Blueprint of the Universe (1827). In 3030 He clearly states He will not change or replace the current Universe, as this is of the best design, la tabdeela means no substitute/replacement. And we know through studying the universe that it has fixed laws running it.
Bringing all these together shows God works through the laws of the universe, and not simply with direct interference, breaking His own rules. As in the words of Paul Davies
?There is no doubt that, even in the crude form, the hypothesis of an intelligent designer
applied to the laws of nature is far superior then the designer considered in the previous
section (of his book red.), who violates the laws of nature from time to time by working
miracles in evolutionary history. Design-by-laws is incomparably more intelligent than
design-by-miracles. If I were an omnipotent being who wanted to make an inhabited
universe like ours, and I could achieve this simply by conjuring up what I wanted when I
wanted it, I wouldn?t regard my activities as very clever. But to select a set of laws that,
without nay periodic fixing up and micromanagment, can bring a universe into being and
bring about self-organisation, self-complexification and self-assembly of life and
conciousness-well, that looks very clever indeed! So the ?intelligent?design beloved of the
Intelligent Design movement strikes me as not very intelligent at all, in contrast to a
designer of laws of nature which by themselves have such astonishing creative ability
without the need for intervention and miracles. Intelligent design of the laws does not
conflict with science, because it accepts that the whole universe runs itself according to
physical laws, and that everything that happens in the universe has a natural
explanation. There are no miracles other than the miracle of nature itself."So God's reaction towards Zulm, oppression, is already laid out in the laws of the universe. This does not mean God already pre-destined the punishment for this specific people at the beginning of the universe. God gave us freewill and endless possibilities to choose from, and He will fix not these choices for us. These are just simple laws of cause and effect that will react to any violation of human rights.
You put your hand in the fire and you will burn it. Cause=hand in fire, effect=burned hand. This same law applies to society at large. When a society oppresses people, it will eventually fall. Cause=oppression, effect=fall of nation.
When a nation deviates from human rights as portrayed in the Revelation they were given, the universe responses to this, which will eventually cause the fall of the nation.
Verse 259 says Rijsan min as-SamaA. Rijs main meaning is polution or disease. It was used for a disease which caused shaky legs on a camel. It also means calamity, scourge, punishment as a consequence of a bad deed. Min SamaA, from the SamaA. SamaA comes from Ism, that which defines a thing. SamaA refers to the sky, space, the universe in total.
So we end up with 2 conclusions
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Rijsan min as-SamaA means Punishment from the Universe. Meaning the universal laws of Cause and Effect turned against them and caused the fall of their nation. This could be for example by a disease that broke out due to their lack of hygene, an invasion by another people because their defense had become weak due to their Zulm. Thus Rijsan min as-SamaA refers to the blueprint of the universe which directs its Laws.
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Rijsan min as-SamaA has a direct meaning, the laws of cause and effect reacted by attracting a storm towards them which destroyed their nation. The understanding that it could refer to meteors is possible, but not likely as a meteor storm has never destroyed a whole nation, and a large meteor would destroy more then just them. A natural storm as a cyclone is far more likely. SamaA also refers to storm clouds.
Both meanings are possible without referring to God intervening with the universe as this is not necessary. The universe is such a perfect system (506), there is no need to intervene within its workings to get something done. The universe has an already built-in reaction system of cause and effect. What the Qur'an tells us is that the system of cause-and-effect also reacts to human deeds.
This also happens gradually. We have the bad habit to believe things happened in the timespan it is needed to read the verse. Become Zalimeen-->direct punishment. This is not how it works as God always leaves space open so a society can reform itself. A punishment can only come if people persist in the oppression, and thus gradually built up the consequence till it floods over them.
This also counts for many things that are seen as miracles in the Qur'an. Or they are mistranslated, or are metaphorical or they are possibilities we do not understand yet in the universe. But they never violate the laws of nature.
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See my website
I have written 3 extensive essays on it
Qur'anic Cosmology
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-e-2.pdfEvolution of Thinking
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/the-evolution-of-thinking.pdfThe Will of God
http//19.org/index.php?aid=553 -
May I also remind that this is NOT a new concept or paradigm. Scholars as Allama Mashriqi, Muhammed Asad, Muhammed Ali, Syed Ahmed Khan, GA Parwez, Dr. Shabbir, Ahmed Ali, Muhammed Abduh, Rashid Rida, Abu Fazl, Abd Al-Jabbar and many more express the same thoughts and feelings over the last 1200 years.
You can call it opinions and ideas not upheld by the majority of Muslims, but it is not a new concept.
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Human thought cannot comprehend properly what is law of nature.If some law is accepted one day,next day it might be refuted. Mass once considered contant ,was destroyed by Einstein.Birth of Dolly has refuted the law of birth that mating of male and female is must to produce.
It is not true if someone thinks that God has set certain principle and sitting aside to watch and He does not interfere in the working of universe.No one can enforce and dictate Him what to do and what not to do. -
Human thought cannot comprehend properly what is law of nature.If some law is accepted one day,next day it might be refuted. Mass once considered contant ,was destroyed by Einstein.Birth of Dolly has refuted the law of birth that mating of male and female is must to produce.
It is not true if someone thinks that God has set certain principle and sitting aside to watch and He does not interfere in the working of universe.No one can enforce and dictate Him what to do and what not to do.The details are still being understood, but the greater outlines of the laws of the universe are becoming more clear everyday. It is a myth to believe science cannot already layout an understanding of the universe. Gravity has remained gravity and attracts the same speed since the earth's core stabilized millions of years ago. The universe works through fixed laws.
Einstein did not refute the laws discovered by Newton, he only understood the relation between mass and energy in a way which Newton hadn't created any real theories. So he stood on Newton's shoulders, he didn't kick him away.
Already in the 1900's they understood only the genes are needed to reproduce. Dolly only confirmed what was known. From 1700 on, mankind has gained a steady understanding of the universe from which the majority of the theories were largely correct.
And no one can dictate God, that is not the discussion. It was God SAYS Himself IN THE QUR'AN what is the discussion.
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Peace Arnold,
It was God SAYS Himself IN THE QUR'AN what is the discussion.
Did not God inspire/give ?two horns? power to intervene and by doing so is this not indirect intervention?
1883-86 And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say "I shall recite to you something of his story." Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."
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God is still deciding and doing whatever he wants.It is his prerogative to decide what is law of nature.He is not sitting in a "paralyzed state" or idle form as some naturalists think.
Dr Shabbir in one his message in his website says
Yes, respected Sister,
I marvel at your knowledge!
This is N2I. Even God won't have a son without a mate. He never breaks His Own laws. So, how could Mary?
Reference http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1127
Look at this "scholar" he thinks that " mate" is must for production and he is calling it as "law of nature".Humans are going to be cloned.Then he will definitely be somersaulting for his interpretation.
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Peace Arnold,
Did not God inspire/give two horns power to intervene and by doing so is this not indirect intervention?
1883-86 And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say "I shall recite to you something of his story." Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."
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Dhul-Qarnain followed God's laws so he himself gained that power. Why immediately refer to intervening? It is a law of the universe that all followign guidance and benefitting mankind (1317) will sustain on earth and even rule it (3110).
2455 Allah has promised that those nations who will believe in the Divine Laws and strengthen human resources, He will surely make them rulers in the earth - Just as He granted rule to the previous nations (286, 3327). ----. -
God is Rahman, which means to provide for the whole universe.
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God is still deciding and doing whatever he wants.It is his prerogative to decide what is law of nature.He is not sitting in a "paralyzed state" or idle form as some naturalists think.
If that is true, why would He then constantly refer to nature if He is still deciding what to do with it? This type of thinking makes God someone who cannot design something perfect! God says He already perfected it
506 Do they not look at the height above them how We have built it and beautified it, and there are no flaws therein?
Follow the Qur'an or follow the Gods-image we inherited from the majority?
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If that is true, why would He then constantly refer to nature if He is still deciding what to do with it? This type of thinking makes God someone who cannot design something perfect! God says He already perfected it
506 Do they not look at the height above them how We have built it and beautified it, and there are no flaws therein?
Follow the Qur'an or follow the Gods-image we inherited from the majority?
That is true ,every thing is created in a perfect manner.No defect.But wherever ,and whenever he wants he can decide to interfere.May be once in a while or not at all.It is his prerogative.
He can create out of nothing even now.He is neither powerless nor idle.
That is the reason He always uses present and future (imperfect tense) for his will and wishes and powers. -
Yes He can. That was NEVER the debate. God can decide what He wants. God is NOT restricted by His own Laws. He can break them if He wished. So the question is, will He break them?
1827 Convey to them whatever of this Book is revealed
to you from your Lord. None can alter His Words. And you will find
no refuge other than Him.And
3030...There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation.
He says La Tabdeela liKhalqi, meaning He will NOT subtitute or replace the universe or its workings.
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He Himself He Himself WILL NOT SUBTITUTE HIS CREATION. La tabdeela likhalqi.
1777 (Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (to mankind), and thou wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change.
3362 That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.
He Himself clearly says He will NOT change His ways.
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Salam,
As Arnold pointed out, the laws of God are unchanged.
Just because we are still discovering new things about the laws of nature does not mean they have changed.
It simply means we (as humans) have learned something new about how nature/science works.And how could humans (or anything in nature for that matter) follow God's laws if they were ever changing?
That being said, it is also obvious that God does intervene at times by issuing punishment or blessings.
It is my understanding that when God does intervene he uses the laws that he already has in place.
Salam,
Arnab