Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws
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Arnab, Arnold
GreetingsFew points
1-No Quantum theory or law support events like piece of clay becoming a bird. Quantum weirdness exist only at quantum level not on mechanical level. Guide me to the appropriate source if I am wrong. The word "Quantum" cannot be just used to rationalize any event.
2-Book, claiming that a piece of clay transformed into a bird because God wanted it to be transformed, is not going to sell well in educated segments of the society in my opinion. That is why most astronomers and physicist died as monotheists (believing that some creator exist out there) without embracing Islam.
3-Book, claiming to be from a creator who is running the show with consist natural laws, will sell well. That is why I am interested in exploring Shabbir's and Arnold's viewpoint.
4-Violation of natural laws (even by God) means chaos.
5-I think it would be unfair on part of God to expect a person to believe that ants can talk like humans. I think if God is fair then he should punish a person to believe that ant can recognize a person by name. That would be like "not using your intelligence" -> "blind faith".
6-One should not require miracles to start believing in God. One should be able to recognize God by observing the surroundings. This reminds me of the time when I was watching David Copperfield show, live. He was flying in front of the crowd. He disappeared. He cut himself into half. He blew my mind away. What he did is more than a miracle. But deep down I knew tjat this is all illusion (how, I dont know). Very impressive. God does not need to do these miracles to make people believe in him. People can still say "so what?" I believe in God because of the consistent natural laws that I observe. Who created the time and space and forces and energy and string? That is how I recognize God. Violation of laws -> Basis of my faith weakens.My study continues...
I am a monotheist.
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Rover,
You and me have similair minds. One of the best books to read on rational scientific approach to the Quran is this one by GA Parwez
Islam A Challenge to Religion
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/islam-a-challenge-to-religion-by-gaparwez.pdf -
Arnab, Arnold
GreetingsFew points
1-No Quantum theory or law support events like piece of clay becoming a bird. Quantum weirdness exist only at quantum level not on mechanical level.
2-Book, claiming that a piece of clay transformed into a bird because God wanted it to be transformed, is not going to sell well in educated segments of the society in my opinion. That is why most astronomers and physicist died as monotheists (believing that some creator exist out there) without embracing Islam.The story of Isa and the bird appears in TWO verses in the Quran (349 and 5110) and is also in the Apocryphal Gospel of Thomas.
I personally do not care "what will sell well."4-Violation of natural laws (even by God) means chaos.
We have laws to follow, God is above all limitations.
5-I think it would be unfair on part of God to expect a person to believe that ants can talk like humans. I think if God is fair then he should punish a person to believe that ant can recognize a person by name. That would be like "not using your intelligence" -> "blind faith".
Then, how do you believe that a "book" from GOD was sent down at all? Doesn't this also require faith?
Remember, the prophets came across people who disbelieved that they "talked to God" or recieved a signs from God.
Some people claimed they were insane, as this would require as they saw it "blind faith."Salam,
Arnab -
Lets use the Quran to show the truth about this example
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There is not an animal ?DABA? on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. (6-3Can you note that God says that the Community of ?Daba? is like the Community of ?Human being?; that would mean if ?DABA? means ?Human?, God would be saying that the Community of ?Humans? is like the Community of ?Humans?!!!
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How many are the animals (DABA) that carry not their own sustenance? It is Allah Who feeds (both) them and you for He hears and knows (all things). (29-60)Can you note that God is making a clear distinction between DABA and us? If there is no deferent, God would not have said and you (Humans).
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Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe. (3) And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals (DABA) are scattered (by creation), are Signs for those of assured Faith. (45-4)When God says that us (yourself) and DABA, he is telling us that we are different from DABA. In other words, when God mention us he does not use DABA unless we deserve to be called DABA! The ones who choose to not reason and think, God says that they are like animals or worse.
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Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees the animals (DABA); and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment and such as Allah shall disgrace none can rise to honor for Allah carries out all that He wills. (22-1Can you note how God is making a clear distinction between heavens, earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Hills, Trees, Animals (DABA), and Mankind (Humans). Why God calls his different creatures using deferent Names?
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And so amongst men and crawling creatures (DABA) and cattle (Anaam), are they of various colors. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants who have knowledge for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (35-2MEN & DABA are two creatures that God calls them using different names.
Thus,
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And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth a DABA D to speak to them, saying "for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs." (27-82)
A Talking Animal is what God Means, in his verse
Peace
Arnold, I'm still waiting for your comments
Kalam refers to speech being transferred, it does NOT refer to the medium used. Using the Quantum Field is even directer then using air-vibration. As for the mountain, I have certain ideas how it can be understood, but i am not going to spell out everything for you, go read Muhammed Ali's or Muhammed Asad's translation on that verse.
Do you think a direct TALK is a Direct intervention by God?
Kalam refers to speech being transferred, it does NOT refer to the medium used. Using the Quantum Field is even directer then using air-vibration. As for the mountain, I have certain ideas how it can be understood, but i am not going to spell out everything for you, go read Muhammed Ali's or Muhammed Asad's translation on that verse.
Not a speech being transferred, rather a Talk being exchanged between God and Moses. In other words, a dircet intervention by GOD.
To Arnold, What is the different between the following arabic words "KALAM" and "AWHA"?
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The way the verse means, in arabic, is that Moses spoke to God "KaLam Allah Moses Taklima", which means a direct TALK and not through A Radio Waive.
So, how about that verse
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When Moses came to the place appointed by Us and his Lord spoke to him, He said (Moses) "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested Himself to the Mount, He made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7-143)Do you believe that the Mount exploded and became dust?
Please, I want your comments that reflect your own reasoning and not somebody else.
As for the mountain, I have certain ideas how it can be understood, but i am not going to spell out everything for you, go read Muhammed Ali's or Muhammed Asad's translation on that verse.
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Rover,
You and me have similair minds. One of the best books to read on rational scientific approach to the Quran is this one by GA Parwez
Islam A Challenge to Religion
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/islam-a-challenge-to-religion-by-gaparwez.pdfThank you for the PDF link.
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In Arabic, ANYTHING THAT WALKS ON THE EARTH is called a so it has nothing to with an animal specifically, it can talk about humans or even an alien species talking to mankind in the far future.
Sorry I overlooked that one; An Alien! rotfl
That cannot happen, because The DABA is from EARTH "Meen El-ArD". In other words, the DABA has to be from Planet EARTH.
Sorry, I could not let that one go!
Peace
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Sorry I overlooked that one; An Alien! rotfl
That cannot happen, because The DABA is from EARTH "Meen El-ArD". In other words, the DABA has to be from Planet EARTH.
Sorry, I could not let that one go!
Peace
Ard refers to land you can walk and live on, so it does not refer to this planet specifically. It refers to all land that can be walked and lived on.
Please keep using your 8 year old Arabic D
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Thank you for the PDF link.
I am not even half way through this PDF yet. I have to say Mr. Pervaiz was a genius. His thoughts, logical level, and eloquence are very impressive. It is a must read for every knowledge seeking individual. I am going to complete the book and see where I stand after that. I hope the book addresses my issues with super naturals.
Thank you again.
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He was a master Muslim philosopher. The God's image he presents is the key to the logical approach which results after the realization of the true God's image the Qur'an and the universe present compared to the man-made image of God the tirant and magician.
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Peace Arnold and everyone,
The Qur'an orders us to investigate nature so we can understand God and His System (3191), He also says there are no flaws in His Design (506), and that there is no change in His Kalimaat, Decrees and Blueprint of the Universe (1827). In 3030 He clearly states He will not change or replace the current Universe, as this is of the best design, la tabdeela means no substitute/replacement. And we know through studying the universe that it has fixed laws running it.
Bringing all these together shows God works through the laws of the universe, and not simply with direct interference, breaking His own rules. As in the words of Paul Davies
?There is no doubt that, even in the crude form, the hypothesis of an intelligent designer
applied to the laws of nature is far superior then the designer considered in the previous
section (of his book red.), who violates the laws of nature from time to time by working
miracles in evolutionary history. Design-by-laws is incomparably more intelligent than
design-by-miracles. If I were an omnipotent being who wanted to make an inhabited
universe like ours, and I could achieve this simply by conjuring up what I wanted when I
wanted it, I wouldn?t regard my activities as very clever. But to select a set of laws that,
without nay periodic fixing up and micromanagment, can bring a universe into being and
bring about self-organisation, self-complexification and self-assembly of life and
conciousness-well, that looks very clever indeed! So the ?intelligent?design beloved of the
Intelligent Design movement strikes me as not very intelligent at all, in contrast to a
designer of laws of nature which by themselves have such astonishing creative ability
without the need for intervention and miracles. Intelligent design of the laws does not
conflict with science, because it accepts that the whole universe runs itself according to
physical laws, and that everything that happens in the universe has a natural
explanation. There are no miracles other than the miracle of nature itself."So God's reaction towards Zulm, oppression, is already laid out in the laws of the universe. This does not mean God already pre-destined the punishment for this specific people at the beginning of the universe. God gave us freewill and endless possibilities to choose from, and He will fix not these choices for us. These are just simple laws of cause and effect that will react to any violation of human rights.
Interesting post. And interesting quote from Paul Davies's book "The Goldilocks Enigma."
The notion that either God intervenes in all human affairs, or he doesn't intervene at all, might be an either/or fallacy (false dilemma).
I recommend this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606704.msg379805#msg379805