Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws
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No one says that these are ever changing laws.These are constant for the creatures.But God may change if he wants
God has used present and future tense (imperfect).
It means God is still as active as He was .Othewise there was no need in using imperfect tense. -
Yes, but does this refer to changing His laws, or the new universes that will be created in Akhira, the future?
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He Himself He Himself WILL NOT SUBTITUTE HIS CREATION. La tabdeela likhalqi.
1777 (Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (to mankind), and thou wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change.
3362 That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.
He Himself clearly says He will NOT change His ways.
Just curious
Show me the Verse where He says"He will not change his ways"
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4823 Such is God's sunna with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's sunna.
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4823 Such is God's sunna with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's sunna.
This aya is as a general principle.It is talking with reference to creatures.Yes creatures are bound to these laws.
There are always exceptions to laws.But when state we state in a general way.
Above I have quoted a verse from "Al-Hajj".No one says that these are ever changing laws.These are constant for the creatures.But God may change if he wants
If He cannot /does not interfere why does he says "He does what wants".It means He 'is still doing" .What is He doing? Will you explain?
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He sustains the creation as He is Rabb. And His Will is constantly at work through His Laws in the universe. That is what He is doing.
And God CAN do what he want. That was never the question. But He has decided a certain course in the universe, which is His Sunna, His way of working, and He does not substitute His Creation for something else (3030).
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Dr Shabbir in one his message in his website says
Reference http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1127
Look at this "scholar" he thinks that " mate" is must for production and he is calling it as "law of nature".Humans are going to be cloned.Then he will definitely be somersaulting for his interpretation.
A person exists out of a mix of male and female genes. When a person is cloned, the already existing mix of female and male genes are just copied. Plus Shabbir only repeats the same argument God makes in the Qur'an. What somersault will you bring?
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Arnold Yasin Peace,
You have replied in such a great detail. I thank you for your time. I do appreciate it.
I am going through ourbeacon.com 's translation and articles these days in the hope that it will open new doors of thinking for me that might hopefully put an end to this unsettled issue I find in the book related to "supernaturals".
"Recognize God by the existence of natural laws; not by their violation" sounds the right way of doing it. I want to see if the Quran is in holistic harmony with this school of thought.
Rover
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A person exists out of a mix of male and female genes. When a person is cloned, the already existing mix of female and male genes are just copied. Plus Shabbir only repeats the same argument God makes in the Qur'an. What somersault will you bring?
Good point .A cell is already a mixture of male and female genes.It means Marry's cell alone could give birth to human being without mating with a male.
As cloning has proved -
Good point .A cell is already a mixture of male and female genes.It means Marry's cell alone could give birth to human being without mating with a male.
As cloning has provedPeace
Mary's cell can only give birth to a little girl, not a boy; as far as cloning is concerned.
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Ghazal,
Just to let you know that cloning is a phenomena that has been taking place since eons. There is nothing supernatural about it.
You must have heard about identical twins. They are a manifestation of natural cloning. A couple mates -> ONE sperm fertilized AN egg -> ONE zygote (mixture of egg and sperm) is formed -> Starts multiplying -> Suddenly, somehow, it divides into two pieces -> Two humans are formed.
One sperm + one egg -> Two identical humans are formed.
Cloning is same. If you want to be cloned, then we need two things. 1) Your DNA 2) An egg from any female. The DNA (female chromosome) of the female egg will be thrown out. Your DNA (male + female chromosome pair) will be forcefully placed in there. Egg will be forced to divide by an electric shock. The process starts....
DNA that we are placing in the egg is already a mixture of male and female.
Pardon me if you already knew all that. My point is that there is nothing supernatural about this.
Mary's phenomena was totally different.
Rover
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Arnold Yasin Peace,
You have replied in such a great detail. I thank you for your time. I do appreciate it.
I am going through ourbeacon.com 's translation and articles these days in the hope that it will open new doors of thinking for me that might hopefully put an end to this unsettled issue I find in the book related to "supernaturals".
"Recognize God by the existence of natural laws; not by their violation" sounds the right way of doing it. I want to see if the Quran is in holistic harmony with this school of thought.
Rover
Peace Rover,
Glad I could help, if you have any questions, just PM me. I have written an essay on the Qur'anic Cosmology
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-e-2.pdf
It gives a further layout of how the Qur'an viewes the universe and our goals and development.
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Peace
Mary's cell can only give birth to a little girl, not a boy; as far as cloning is concerned.Allah doesn't need Mary's cell to create Jesus. Allah can do anything.
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One sperm + one egg -> Two identical humans are formed.
They?re not exactly same even identical twins are unique?
753-4 Does the human/mankind think/suppose that We (will) not gather/unite his bones? Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers.
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Have you ever heard about XX males ??
Ghazal, if you want to believe the Qur'an refers to such an unusual farfetched situation, you have all the right. Remember that you are then admitting God works through His laws only, as even if Jesus was born through being an XX male, then it would not be a miracle.
Just a rare exception within the natural statistics that happens now and then.
If people want to believe in miracles and so on, there is no problem. I myself find this contradicting the Qur'an in many ways, which is so scientific in its outlook on the world. Plus an intervening God seems not as smart as a God that has created a complete universal system that governs all the details.
What is smarter? A technician who develops a computer that creates and runs its own programs so the technician doesn't need to interfer after starting the computer; or a technician that needs to stay with the computer all the time to intervene in its program so it can run. A self-running and creating computer is a million times more smarter then a computer that needs constant guidance.
And since God is the smartest and has all knowledge it is clear what He would choose...
So I have to agree with Paul davies here, a non-intervening God that created and lets the universe run mankind through fixed laws, is a million times superior to a God that constantly intervenes in making and sustaining mankind.
And interesting is that this concept is reflected in the Qur'anic message for me.
And Nun de Plume, on a genetical level they are the same. Fingerprints are formed in the womb and are determined by the movement and position of the foetus.
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Arnold Yasin
Whether you call it a miracle or not.But you agree that scientifically it is possible that without father ,a child can be born.So Dr Shabbir stance that mate is must for procreation is not 100% true.So Jesus birth without a father under law of cloning is possible.
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Arnold Yasin
Whether you call it a miracle or not.But you agree that scientifically it is possible that without father ,a child can be born.So Dr Shabbir stance that mate is must for procreation is not 100% true.So Jesus birth without a father under law of cloning is possible.
Peace
XX males can only be cloned from XX males.
Mary (XY) could only be cloned to a baby girl (XY).As far as Jesus are concerned, cloning is not a possibility.
Please take one of the following positions.
- Jesus had a father
- Jesus was a miracle
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No I do not believe Jesus was born without a father as there is not any good reason why this hsould have happenned. It contains no message, it doesn't guide people. It is just a myth that was created a century after Jesus. The bible clearly says he had a father. Paul in his Letters constantly refers to Joseph the father of Jesus, Jesus the son of Joseph.
Let's see what the Qur'an has to say
In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as ". And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words ". Wa min aaba ihim" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means . And from among their fathers.
Muslim scholars are in jeopardy with this statement from Allah. They desperately try to justify their faith that Jesus did not have a father. So now they start twisting the meaning and interpretation. At this time I want to emphasize that if Jesus did not have a father then the verse 688 should not have included his name or should have specifically stated that illa Isa or except Isa. Or would you say it was an oversight (nauzubillah!) on part of Allah!!! If the argument is that some HAD fathers, then which other prophet did not have a father? Can you tell me who was born without a father other than Jesus?
There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we dont find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.
Muslims are more interested to uphold the Biblical statement at the cost of the Quranic declaration.
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Let's see what the Qur'an has to say
In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words "?. Wa min aaba ihim?" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means ?. And from among their fathers?.
Muslim scholars are in jeopardy with this statement from Allah. They desperately try to justify their faith that Jesus did not have a father. So now they start twisting the meaning and interpretation. At this time I want to emphasize that if Jesus did not have a father then the verse 688 should not have included his name or should have specifically stated that illa Isa or except Isa. Or would you say it was an oversight (nauzubillah!) on part of Allah!!! If the argument is that some HAD fathers, then which other prophet did not have a father? Can you tell me who was born without a father other than Jesus?
527 And recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam...
From their fathers is a subset. The same logic would assume all had children and brothers guided as well.
Wamin aba-ihim wathurriyyatihim wa-ikhwanihim waijtabaynahum wahadaynahum ila siratin mustaqeemin
687 And from their fathers/forefathers, and their descendants, and their brothers, and We chose/purified them and We guided them to a straight/direct road/way.
And since God is the smartest and has all knowledge it is clear what He would choose...
So I have to agree with Paul davies here, a non-intervening God that created and lets the universe run mankind through fixed laws, is a million times superior to a God that constantly intervenes in making and sustaining mankind.
That's an assumption about God and how does the below work in a godless non intervening universe without messenger angels?
5110 when God said "You Jesus Mary's son, remember My blessing on you and on your mother, when I supported you with the Holy Spirit, you speak/converse (to) the people in the crib/cradle and in maturity, and when I taught/instructed/informed you The Book , and the wisdom , and the Torah, and the Injeel, and when you create as a shape/form (of) the bird/birds with My permission, so you blow in it, so it will be flying/birds, with My permission, and you cure and heal the blind/born blind, and the leper with My permission, and when you bring out the deads with My permission, and when I prevented/stopped children of Israel from you, when you came to them with the evidences, so those who disbelieved from them said "That that (is) except clear/evident magic/sorcery."