Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws

belH

37 He is the One who sent down to you the
book, from which there are definite
signs; they are the essence of the book;
and others, which are multiple-meaning.
As for those who have disease in their
hearts, eager to cause confusion and
eager to derive their interpretation, they
will follow what is multiple-meaning
from it. But none knows their meaning
except God and those who are well
founded in knowledge; they say, "We
acknowledge it, all is from our Lord."
None will remember except the people
of intellect.

We must never forget that Qur'an also uses allegories.

The stories I mentioned are decisive Verses (definite
signs) and not Allegories.

Please answer my Question?

arnoldyasin

The stories I mentioned are decisive Verses (definite
signs) and not Allegories.

Please answer my Question?

What is your proof for that?

belH

What is your proof for that?

A decisive verse is a verse that can only be interpreted one way;

Thus

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth an animal (Daba) to speak to them saying for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs (verses). (27-82)

Can only be interpreted as an Animal Will Speak To Humans.

So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more). (18-25)

Can only be interpreted as they stayed for 309 years in the Cave.

Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). (2-259)

Can only be interpreted as what it says, died for 100 years and then raised him and his donkey after 100 years.

The same goes for all the Quranc examples that I mentioned in my 11 examples, They are decisive and can only interpreted one way.

Please let me know if you think the meaning can be understood differently, which means All are Allegories verses.

belH

12- How about the following example of God Direct intervention, by making them dead and then alive

Didst thou not turn by vision to those who abandoned their homes though they were thousands (in number), for fear of death? Allah said to them "Die." then He restored them to life. For Allah is full of bounty to mankind, but most of them are ungrateful. (2-243)

arnoldyasin

A decisive verse is a verse that can only be interpreted one way;

That is a very subjective opinion not a fact.

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth an animal (Daba) to speak to them saying for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs (verses). (27-82)

Can only be interpreted as an Animal Will Speak To Humans.

In Arabic, ANYTHING THAT WALKS ON THE EARTH is called a so it has nothing to with an animal specifically, it can talk about humans or even an alien species talking to mankind in the far future.

So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more). (18-25)

Can only be interpreted as they stayed for 309 years in the Cave.

See for example Muhammed Ali

25a. Commentators consider this verse as being conjoined to v. 22 with the words
they say as being understood. But as shown in 22a, the history of Christianity, which
runs like an undercurrent in the story of the Companions of the Cave, finds a clear
expression now. There is no tradition that the Companions of the Cave remained in the
Cave for three hundred years, but Christianity itself remained in a Cave for full three
hundred years. It is a fact that Christianity rose to power with the conversion of
Constantine, and at the same time it lost its purity with the formulation of the doctrine of
the Trinity, which was promulgated in 325 A.D. It is, moreover, now almost agreed that
Jesus Christ was born five or six years before the reputed date of his birth. Bishop
Barnes says in The Rise of Christianity that he may have been born in 65 B.C. So if he
began his ministry at the age of thirty, the Christian religion may be said to have been
born at about 25 A.D., and thus exactly after three hundred years it lost its purity by the
promulgation of the Trinitarian doctrine, emerging at the same time as a State religion.
Thus it remained in the Cave for three hundred years.
But what does this, the addition of nine years, mean? To reduce solar years to lunar
years, three years have to be added to every hundred years, and to the three centuries
another nine years are thus added. It is due to this computation that nine years are
spoken of as being added.
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch018-65.pdf

He understands it as representing the deviation of Christianity after 300 years.

Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). (2-259)

Can only be interpreted as what it says, died for 100 years and then raised him and his donkey after 100 years.

I have discussed that in my essay

When we look at verses 2258 where a discussion is going on between Abraham and man, probably a ruler. Abraham says that only Allah really gives life and death, hajat and maut. These two words can be applied to humans, plants as well as nations. In 2259 we see a story on a person that walks through a city which is called dead and he wonders how God can revive it, thus making it alive with people again and make it flourish. God gives a metaphor that it is like any other resurrection. A revival of nation must, like the resurrection, follow the Divine Laws of Nature. In line with the previous verses, 2260 talks about the revival of nations as Abraham is promised a might nation and offspring. Most people read into it that Abraham cut up the birds and then call them, but the sentence preceding it tells us that he must bring the birds close to him, in other words, train and tame them, so they will respond to his call. So why train them and then cut them up? This is illogical. It is much simpler, the group was split up, the birds were not cut up, and put on every mountain. The birds were called and responded. In the same way will God train us through Revelation, the Quran, so we will respond to His call and be close to Him.

Abraham wanted to understand the Law of Revival of nations. Allah asked him if he believed that it were possible. Abraham said he believed but that he wanted a practical example to educate his heart and mind. Allah told him to take four birds and train them in a kind manner, and then to leave them far apart on separate hilltops. And then call them; they will come in haste. (At one call of Abraham, those birds came flying back to him. This is how mankind can be brought to the Word of Allah with decent training, giving them a new life). Know that this Wisdom comes to you from Allah, the Almighty, the Wise.
Page 32

http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/the-evolution-of-thinking.pdf

Also Muhammed Ali comes to a similair conclusion

259a. An illustration is afforded here from later Israelite history, as to how dead
nations are raised to life. By the town which had fallen in upon its roofs is meant
Jerusalem (Rz, AH), as it was left after its desolation by Nebuchadnezzar in 599 B.C.
The words look at the bones, how We set them together, then clothe them with
flesh, undoubtedly refer to Ezekiels vision as related in Ezekiel, ch. 37. The first part
of ch. 37 relates how Ezekiel was taken (in a vision) in the midst of the valley which
was full of bones, and asked, Son of man, can these bones live?

After a Divine assurance,
Ezekiel is made to witness the scene which is narrated here in the words Look
at the bones, how We set them together The bones came together, bone to his bone,
and the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them above, and
then the breath came into them, and they lived (Ezek. 37110). That what is narrated
in Ezekiel, ch. 37, is a vision is clear from the introductory words of that chapter The
hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord. What
follows the incident makes it still more clear, for verse 11 (Ezekiel, ch. 37) goes on to
say Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel Behold, they say, Our
bones are dried, and our hope is lost; while verse 12 gives them the Divine promise,
Behold, O My people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your
graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. This shows conclusively that the bones
were only a symbol of the fallen condition of the whole house of Israel. I lay stress upon
the word whole in Ezekiel 3711, because the actual bones were only of the very few
among them who were put to the sword, by far the greater number being in captivity or
held in a slavish condition in subjugation to the Babylonians.

The identical incident related in v. 259 is also a vision. The Qur?n usually dispenses
with words showing an incident to be a vision when either the context or the nature of
the incident or a reference to earlier history makes it clear that it is a vision. Compare
the words in which Joseph narrated his vision to his father in 124 O my father, I saw
eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them making obeisance to me, not
making any mention at all that he had seen this in a vision. In the verse under discussion,
however, it is not only its identity with Ezekiel 37110 that shows the incident to be a
vision, but the insertion of a k?f, signifying likeness, before the whole is a further indication
of the same. If the incident had been a real one, as in the previous verse, the verse
should have commenced with the words or him instead of or like him, the insertion of
the k?f giving the incident the colour of a parable or a vision.

The causing the prophet to die for a hundred years is also an incident of the vision
which, though not narrated in the Bible, is corroborated by facts, standing symbolically
for the death of the Jewish nation, a death of disgrace and sorrow, or the desolation of
Jerusalem, which covered a period of almost a hundred years. Jerusalem was taken by
Nebuchadnezzar in 599 B.C. (2 Kings 2410); Cyrus gave permission to rebuild the temple
in 537 B.C. (Ezra 12), the house being eventually finished in 515 B.C. (Ezra 615).
The Bible does not give us the history of the period from 515 B.C., and even if we are
not allowed to conjecture that another fifteen years may have been taken by the Israelites
to settle back in Jerusalem and to rebuild the city itself for their own habitation, the period
from 599 to 515 B.C. covers almost fully the whole of the sixth century B.C., and
hence the hundred years of the prophets death in this vision represent the hundred years
of the death of the Israelite nation.

The reference to the food and drink of the prophet, which did not show any
influence of years, and to his ass, which was still standing by, only proves that the hundred
years death which the prophet underwent was only a vision. The mention of the
bones has been taken by some commentators to refer to the ass, but this is an obvious
error, for the two statements are separated by a sentence And that We may make thee a
sign to men; and there is also a pause after the word ass, separating what follows from
that which has preceded.
How was Ezekiel a sign to the people? Because the vision made him a symbol of the
whole Jewish nation, and his symbolic death for a hundred years represented the
sorrows and afflictions of Israel for a similar period, after which they were once more to
be restored to life.
The word yatasannah (sanah, a year) means the thing underwent the lapse of years.
The word applied to food and drink carries a similar significance, meaning it became
altered (for the worse) by the lapse of years (LA, LL). Rz explains the lapse of years to
be the real meaning of the word, for his explanation is the years did not pass over it.
This shows that actually there was no lapse of years, and it is simply a vision.

http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch002-e.pdf

So you can understand them very differently then literal. The Qur'an must be taken as a whole, not just picking 1 or 2 verses and only focussing on those.

Dear Belmuhammed, please study for example Muhammed Ali's translation or Shabbir's if you want to learn more understandings.

In the Qur'an, death and life is mostly used for nations. So the nations died and relived again according to them following God's Laws or not.

belH

How about example 10 and 12

arnoldyasin

Dear Belmuhammed, please study for example Muhammed Ali's translation or Shabbir's if you want to learn more understandings.

In the Qur'an, death and life is mostly used for nations. So the nations died and relived again according to them following God's Laws or not.

Dear Belmuhammed, I have discussed these questions many times before on this forum. Also most of your questions have been answered by genius writers as Muhammed Ali and Muhammed Asad. Please study those.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16877.msg169271#msg169271

1861 But when Moses with his young friend reached the junction of the two
streams, they forgot all about the fish. And it took it disappeared into the sea. (Moses found himself caring little for the delicacies of life from then on.)
1862 And after the two had walked some distance, Moses said to his young friend, Bring us our lunch, the journey has been tiring.

1879 "As for the boat, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I
wished to make it defective. For, behind them was a king who was taking
every (good) boat by force.

1880 And as for the lad, his parents were true believers whereas we had
every reason to fear that he would bring bitter grief upon them by rebellion and disbelief.
1881 And so we desired that their Sustainer grant them, instead of him, a
child better in purity of conduct and affection.

1882 As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town. And there
was a treasure for them, beneath the wall. Their late father was a righteous
man, and your Lord wanted them to grow up to full maturity and then extract
their treasure as a Mercy from your Lord.

belH

Verily, when He intends a thing, His command is "Be" and it is! (36-82)

That is the decisive verse, God will intervene any time he wishes to, as he did in all the TRUE examples that I mentioned before, which you and others made their meaning look differently by a very unintelligent arguments.

God raveled the Quran in Arabic-easy-words that can be understood by an 8 years old Arabic speaker Child.

Your interpretation of the 12 examples shows your unintentional or intentional lack of understanding Arabic.

Let me ask you or any other reader a question, have any one of you saw a dream about an event, and then this event happen after that; in other words did any of you had a knowledge of future?

unknownuser

Let me ask you or any other reader a question, have any one of you saw a dream about an event, and then this event happen after that; in other words did any of you had a knowledge of future?

O' about a dozen times a year... ;D

See thread topic Time and D?j? vu dreams

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13232.msg110315#msg110315

Peace

belH

O' about a dozen times a year... ;D

See thread topic Time and D?j? vu dreams

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13232.msg110315#msg110315

Peace

Thank you; I consider this a direct intervention of God, because he is the only one who know the future.
Peace

arnoldyasin

Verily, when He intends a thing, His command is "Be" and it is! (36-82)

That is the decisive verse, God will intervene any time he wishes to, as he did in all the TRUE examples that I mentioned before, which you and others made their meaning look differently by a very unintelligent arguments.

God raveled the Quran in Arabic-easy-words that can be understood by an 8 years old Arabic speaker Child.

Your interpretation of the 12 examples shows your unintentional or intentional lack of understanding Arabic.

Let me ask you or any other reader a question, have any one of you saw a dream about an event, and then this event happen after that; in other words did any of you had a knowledge of future?

A very easy way out of the conversation, especially since I quoted Muhammed Asad and Muhammed Ali who had a deeper knowledge of Arabic then you or me. Plus show me one 8 year old that understand Classic Arabic from the 7th century and all its idioms, a good understanding of nature and its workings, a good understanding of history and all religions and knows the whole Qur'an so it knows how to cross-reference all verses so his understanding does not create any contradictions.

The Qur'an is easy to understand for those who use reason and reflect on everything, not quick and easy understandings..

CavemanDoctor

Very insightful points Arnold.

This is in line with my thinking as well.

One question, though (which you may have addressed elsewhere). Is not the revelation of the quran (or any other wahi from the past) not a 'miracle'? Is this not God intervening/'breaking' a law? What are your thoughts on that?

Peace.

arnoldyasin

The whole universe consists of information

Prof. Seth Loyd

The universe is made of bits. The way in which the universe registers and processes information determines what it is and how it behaves. It has been known for more than a century that every piece of the universe - every electron, atom, and molecule - registers bits of information. It is only in the last ten years, however, with the discovery and development of quantum computers, that scientists have gained a fundamental understanding of just how that information is registered and processed. Seth Lloyd calls this fundamental understanding of the universe in terms of information processing 'the computational universe' Starting from basic concepts of physics, how all physical systems register information. account of how information is stored and processed at the level of electrons, atoms, and molecules. the information processing power of the universe can be harnessed to build quantum computers and explains how the universe itself behaves like a gigantic computer, transforming and processing information. the history of information processing from the big bang to the present day, and reveals how the computational ability of the universe promotes the evolution of complex structures such as life.

Backcover. Programming the Universe by Seth Loyd, 2006.

Scientist and philosopher Ervin Laszlo

Energy must be conveyed by something; it does not act in a vacuum. Rather, scientists are now coming to the insight that it does act in a vacuum, namely in the quantum vacuum, it is an active, physically real cosmic plenum. It conveys not only light, gravitation, and energy in its various forms, but also information; more exactly, in-formation.

There is no evident limit to the information that interfering vacuum wavefields could conserve. In the final count, they could carry information on the state of the whole universe.

Page 71. Science and the Akashic Field by Ervin Laszlo, 2007 2nd edition.

Jibril comes from Jabr and Il, jabr means to make a person independent and give it courage to take on life, il means power, ghabbar in Hebrew means link/connection, so this means Jibril is the link that has the power to make mankind independent. It is a description, not a name, it is like a radio wave. Only the Prophets could hear that specific radio wave, their brain picked up the information, and through his subconciousness it was given to his conciousness bit by bit. This is not going against nature it is not breaking the hardware nor overruling the software, it is just an email from God.

If this recording was already installed by God into the universe waiting for Muhammed to pick it up or that it was directly emailed to him into Muhammed's subconsiousness I'm still reflecting on. But there is a big difference in believing God gave information to explain us what we must do and believing God intervened through splitting a sea. In the first one, we are still the ones acting, the second one is a few humans being slave to the situation and it has no impact on the future on us. Revelation does.

Plus, all animals have an instinct. We do not have a completely layed out program in our heads. We get revelation as our instinct, so it is a law of nature in itself, an aspect of it.

CavemanDoctor

Good points, thanks for the analysis Arnold.

belH

Plus show me one 8 year old that understand Classic Arabic from the 7th century and all its idioms,

All the examples of verses that I mention can be easly understood by a Kid; For example

Didst thou not turn by vision to those who abandoned their homes though they were thousands (in number), for fear of death? Allah said to them "Die." then He restored them to life. For Allah is full of bounty to mankind, but most of them are ungrateful. (2-243)

A kid can understand, when reading this verse, that God put thausend of people to death and made them alive. brickwall

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth an animal (Daba) to speak to them saying for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs (verses). (27-82)

A Kid can understand, when reading this verse, that God will send an ANIMAL that will speak to people. But if God wants to say a human, he would have said "Insan and not DABA". brickwall

So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more). (18-25)

A Four years old can understand that verse as 309 years brickwall

Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). (2-259)

A kid would understand this verse as 100 years of death and then God made him alive. brickwall

Peace giveup

belH

Jibril comes from Jabr and Il, jabr means to make a person independent and give it courage to take on life, il means power, ghabbar in Hebrew means link/connection, so this means Jibril is the link that has the power to make mankind independent. It is a description, not a name, it is like a radio wave.

Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and prophets and Gabriel and Michael-Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject faith. (9

How can you be an enemy to a Radio Wave! rotfl

)

belH

Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and prophets and Gabriel and Michael-Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject faith. (9

How can you be an enemy to a Radio Wave! rotfl

)

That was a Verse from Chapter 2 (2-9, sorry

rover

Thank you; I consider this a direct intervention of God, because he is the only one who know the future.
Peace

Then what about the "dreams about the future" that do not come true?

Lets say I dreamed that I failed in the exam.

If I really do fail, I would say "The dream was from God".
If I pass, then I would say "That was just an ordinary dream"

I see a fallacy here in your argument.

arnoldyasin