General Issues / Questions

The translations of above verse is my own.. And here's "another translations which similar to mine". http//www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/36 366 To warn a people whose fathers were not warned, for they are unaware. And how bout Muhammad encircling the house (still) full of idols? And the early muslims prostrating to the house (still) full of idols? And God protecting a house full of idols from destruction by Abrahah? And Muhammad wed his own daughter to his own cousin? Is there any verse in the Quran which assert that Muhammad is a Quraish Tribe? Salam / Peace SLM, Who is "Abrahah" ? Is there ? misspelling !? Peace & Truth on Earth & above our "heads"

Peace mmKhan, Yes, we did get off topic. While we may not agree on this, I have come to respect your no-nonsense approach to the Quran. handshake Your suggestion is a wise one. ) Peace, Joel Salaam Joel, Thanks! handshake May Allah bless you brother and guide us to His true path pr mmKhan

Without doubt, Rashad Khalifa, for at least two reasons Rashad's book, Quran, Hadith, and Islam is a land mark book in history of Islam. Future generations will consider it as the most influential book that demolished hadith/sunna and its derivative the sectarian teachings or idols with a mortal blow. There were Quranist movements here or there, throughout history. But, since the ummah fell prey to the distortion of Shafii within a few centuries after Hijra, we lost the true meaning of many verses of the Quran. The idea of Naskh-mansuk or illiteracy of the prophet Muhammad, and many other dogmas were rarely questioned and even if questioned were not presented with their full power. That book was the first one that refuted the authority of hadith and sunna without any compromise. Dealt with major distortions done throughout the centuries and provided Quranic context how to understand "obey God and his messenger." Through Divine inspiration he discovered the great secret of the Quran, thereby destroying the biggest philosophical stumbling block in front of those who wanted to adhere to the Quran alone. In the past, the followers of hearsay books and fabricated sharia would challenge the Quranist "If we lose our trust to Sahaba, Tabiin and those who followed them, how then can we trust to the authenticity of the Quran?" This is indeed a powerful epistemological counter-argument and none could respond to such a challenge without the discovery of the secret of the number 19 mentioned in chapter 74 in 1974, exactly 19x74 lunar years after the revelation of the Quran by a monotheist scientist who was not only knowledgeable about the Quran, but also very honest and brave, a messenger of God to our generation. With the revelation of the Quranic code, God proved that the Quran is indeed His book, that indeed it is preserved perfectly, not by people, but by God Himself. Besides, the discovery shed light over the multiple meaning of the many verses of the Quran, such as the letters/digits initializing 29 chapters of the Quran, which was destined for the Computer generation to appreciate. We are now living a new era in which the progressive ones are sorted from the regressive ones (7437). Peace I understand your view but you were among the early pioneers of the 20th century movement. However most people now entered the movement (if we can call it as such) through the internet. I have never read Rashad's book and never heard of him except through Ahmed Deedat who once refered to him as the discoverer of the 19 code. I was never a Koranist then and was very much a Sunni. But 9-11 and the subsequent debate about Islam in the net changed many things for me as I became to be exposed to many elements of Sunni Islam that the clerics were hiding. Also the net helped me search the Koran easier and was able to compare what the Koran was saying and what Sunni islam was teaching. Also the various works of many writers and historians became available. I was influenced by Joseph Schacht's analysis greatly as I became to see his logic, especially about isnads and the role Shafi played in making hadith a revelation. I think the inetrnet alone could have done it (in time) as it made information readily available that the clerics would hide, however I think the rise of wahhabism has made many elements of Sunni Islam far more exposed to the public. The end of the Sufi era would go down in history as the beginning of the Sunni/Shia downfall.

Does the Quran have any explanations why? Is there any theories? Any...err hadiths? Interesting verse from the book of Joel And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy (Naba), your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see revelation/vision. In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on servants--men and women alike. Joel 228-30 Another question to ponder Does revelation / enlightenment need to be carried by a specific 'prophet'? Did human enlightenment stops 1400 years ago? or is it a continuing process up until now? Did anyone paid any attention to the 'warning' of climate change and 'extreme weather' some years back? Some folks did 'prophesied' that too before it's happening now.. Salam / Peace

the proof that repentance is accepted, that one is forgiven for a bad deed is that one does not do it any more. So if the subject used to be a zani and he is not a zani any more he has been forgiven the zani part. Were it no so, nobody or almost would ever be forgiven anything. It is not contumacy, it is graduallity. Our whole lives are about that, about jihad for improvement and and forgiveness. Salaam Wow well said ) I woke up this morning still depressed and wow this was awesome ) Yeah the traditionalists probably got to me again. It didn't believe them but it did scare me when I was told that you have to stop ALL sins otherwise you aren't forgiven if you just stop one of your sins and ask forgiveness for that. Of course all they brought up was this one hadith which even many of the traditionalists skipped past that and didn't agree with it surprisingly. Regardless considering there is no Quranic verse that says repenting for as sin won't be accepting this is what truly makes sense ) Thanks D

BUMP ;D

BUMP ;D

Well... On the other hand, flags have become modern idols serving as unifying symbols within a border and dividing symbols externally. Flags end up becoming packages of self-righteous, arrogant and tribalistic emotions accummulated by manipulative politicians... They are props to quickly hypnotize masses and motivate them to do whatever the politicians and the one percent want them to do... The most dangerous animals are those who wave a flag in one hand and a holy book in another. You may have a little fun with flags here. Peace, Edip

I believe I will be held accountable for my intention not my thoughts. Alot of times, I can't control what im thinking... sounds weird, but its true (for me at least) We're only human this religion isn't suppose to be burden and God is merciful so I also believe you are correct.

What are you trying to say, devil worshipper, sinful arrogant obscene twisted lying deceitful drunk sinner. Bahman or Barman,

Peace Aryan Warrior, redsulpher Whether the Trinity in the Qur'an is talking about Father, Son, Holy Ghost or Father, Son, Mary it is all the same. The Qur'an doesn't explicitly name many things, but based on all the verses in the Qur'an, using ijtihad, we get our answer. It's like you telling me that it doesn't say that smoking is haram when the Qur'an states that one should not seek his/her own destruction. Also, the Qur'an doesn't necessarily say that the Trinity is only the Father, Son, Mary version. It just says stop saying Three in general. If you referred to the ayat that I posted earlier, the Qur'an explicitly says they have committed shirk. What's your definition of shirk if it is not polytheism? I see what you are trying to say however that is not in line with the Trinitarian creed. They state that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit. If one doesn't exist, the other cease to exist. The Father is a person, the Son is a person, and the Holy Spirit is a person. However, they are not three persons but one person. Peace The trinity that the Koran is concerned about is the one that believes Jesus(or for that matter any entity) is God. Now Christians theology officially does not say that but says Jesus is not fully human but not fully God either. Every Christian probably understands it different. However the Koran was fully aware of the Trinity and yet considered Christianity as a monotheist faith. That is the bottom line and even allowed us to marry from them althought it prohibited that with the pagans. This shows the Koran clearly seperates between paganism and Christianity or Judaism.

@ mmkhan by way of explanation - I read 3321 (where the Prophet Muhammad is referred to as an excellent model) with reference to the battle of the trench (as evidenced by the verses surrounding it). Also, 597 is made with reference to the division of war spoils. 604-5 refers to Abraham as a model (but we have no hadith from him - only what is given in the Quran). "604-5 refers to Abraham as a model (but we have no hadith from him - only what is given in the Quran" Exactly! We have many prophets and their stories and legacies in the Koran. The Koran says we should not seperate between any of the prophets. Yet its only when it comes to Muhammad are we told we need sources outside the Koran to follow. The Koran tells us that the story of Job is an inspiration for us, so is David and Goliath and what happened to Pharoah and Moses. But for some reason we are told that we need sources outside the Koran if we need to know Muhammad's legacy. I think what happened is that the Ummayid and Abbasid and Fatimid dynasties that ruled Islam were all of Meccan orginis and they could not trace their heritage to any other prophet than Muhammad so they find it expedient to create hadiths with isnads going back to Muhammad. The fact that Muhammad was a Meccan and all the 4 "Caliphs" after him were Meccans meant that the Meccans can always trace their heritage to them. What is interesting about the Sunnah is its place in Islam (Sunni/Shia Islam) . Authority of the Sunnah One thing that must be mentioned here is that many Muslims get confused between the general term of Sunnah, which includes all the sayings and actions of the Prophet, and between the term Sunnah when used in fiqh issues where it means "recommended". For example, since the Prophet used to pray 2 rak'at before fajr prayer, we say that it is Sunnah for us to pray these 2 rak'at, which means that it is recommended to pray these 2 rak'at and not obligatory. In this article we are discussing the Sunnah in the general sense, and not in the fiqh sense. We are talking about the Sunnah as a source of Islamic legislation. Therefore, when we say it is obligatory to follow the Sunnah, we are talking about the Prophets commands for us in the Sunnah and not about the recommended actions such as the 2 rak'at before fajr for example. Please make sure that you understand the difference here. What does the Authority of the Sunnah mean? In Arabic, the wording is Hojjiyat As-Sunnah. This basically means that the Sunnah can be used as evidence in Shariah, and that Allah (swt) has ordered us to follow the Sunnah and avoid anything it has prohibited for us. In other words, this means that it is obligatory on every Muslim to believe in what the Sunnah tells us, and to act according to the Sunnah in all aspects of our life and ensure that we do not commit any actions that contradict the Sunnah. The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an The Sunnah can be divided into three parts Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it. Explanatory Sunnah. This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an. Sunnah that brings new legislation. This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an. http//www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php Notice this and this verse 10.15 But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)." Here we are told by the Koran that the Meccans demanded Muhamamd to either bring another Quran or to change the Quran that came to him. Notice the answer given was that Muhammad did not have such authority and if he were to do that God will hold him accountable. Yet when we look at the role the Sunnah has in Sunni and Shia Islam, its exactly what the pagans of Mecca demanded. By introducing legislation not in the Kora, and by making general statements in the koran specific and making specific general, and if that won't work than delete the verses through abrogation, they basically brought a new Islam. Muhammad's refusal to do what they wanted him to do meant that the Meccans had no choice but to fight him. They did not want the Koran as it is. Here is the biggest difference between the Koran and Sectarian islam, the authority of the prophet. In Sunni and Shia Islam, Muhammad had the authority to introduce, change and spin and delete the Koran while in the Koran Muhammad had no such authority. Because the prophetic authority is the highest authority a human can have, limited authority meant that no other human being and no ruler can have any authority higher than that authority. By elevating Muhammad's authority to an almost absolute authority that in the Koran is reserved only to God, the Sunnah has then made it possible for the rulers of Islam throught out history and to this day to have that absolute authority. That kind of authority is impossible in a Koranic state. The only authority the Koran gave Muhammad over humans(other than preaching) is the authority to interfere when a human infringes on the right of another human. Anything else, like whether this person believes in God or not, whether he worships idols or not, whether he wants to give charity or be stingy, or whether he wants to obey the scriptures and the prophets or whether he wants to mock the scriptures and the prophets , whether he wants to sin or not, is not Muhammad's businness. Yet we see all Islamic countries today dictate and impose themselves on people. Apostasy laws, hijab laws, anti alcohol laws, state zakat imposed on people, banning of this and that and then punishing people by lashing or imprisoning or fining for what they believe are transgression against God and the commiting of sins. None of this is possible in a Koranic state because a Koranic state does not have such authority because the highest religious authority had no such authority. The Koran is EXPLICIT about what authority Muhammad had. Notice many of these verses were abrogated by Sunni and Shia Islam precisely because it limited the authority of the state and the ruler. 1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message . 6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them. 479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." 1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it? 1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith. 21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far." 2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do." 24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). 8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. 4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does. 3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.' 3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper. 426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach .... 6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message. 6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner." 10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand 28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance. 109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine. 74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities! "So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6113-114 "And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 668 2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing Notice that Al Shafi quoted some of these verses when he argued about the Sunnah ("obey God and obey His messenger&quot, yet we can see these are the very verses that limited his authority. The irony is many Sunni authorities abrogated the very verses Al Shafi used. What they wanted from these "obey God and obey His messenger" verses was the first part of the verse but not the ending. The Sunni authority claimed that the so called sword verse (verse 95) and also verse 929 abrogated all these verses that gave Muhammad limited authority. 9.5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful 9.29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. However if you look at these verses you can easily these were verses about battles with the Meccan pagans who were the ones who initiate hostilities 9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! These two verses (9.5 and 9.29) verses they used to abrogate Muhammad's limited authority are all in defensive context. They had to abroagte many verses of the Koran because of the hadith in Bukhari ?Abdullah Ibn Muhammad Al-Musnadi narrated from Abu Rawh Al-Harami Ibn ?Umarah from Shu?ba from Waqid Ibn Muhammad who heard from his father from Ibn ?Umar that the Messenger of Allah said, ?I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and establish the prayer, and pay the zakat. If they do that, their lives and property are protected from me except for the right of Islam, and their reckoning is up to Allah.? This moved the authority to fight from defensive to offensive and thereby started the era of the so called Islamic conquest (ghazu). Notice how the hadith states that Muhhamd said "I was ordered or commanded" (meaning by God) differs radically than what the Koran actually commanded and ordered the prophet to do. The God of the Koran did a very different ordering and commanding than the God of the Sunnah. 10.15 But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)." Bring us another reading other than this, another words another Koran and another revelation, exactly what Al Shafi said when he claimed than another revelation OTHER than the Koran came to Muhammad. Or change it meaning changing its laws by introducing new legislation and deleting Koranic commands and legislations or making general statements(like Christians and Jews who believe in God will go to heaven) specific or specifc statements in the Koran (like Jizya) general. So now we know why the Sunnah came about.

Thank you so much! sun

God decides on the day of judgement. Peace.

to, truth behind it Please read and comment! Even the proper noun ?muhammad? is not in the Quran By Saim Bakar It would have been better if you had read it in detail before asking my comment on it; it however took me so long to comment as I did not visited the site. in the same post the author quotes an Ayat 4163 We have inspired you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms. Are these proper nouns or what? What noun is Musa? I would like to know please before go on to your main question...and who is "YOU" in this ayat? who has been inspired. Is the identity of the Messenger important?

New user here, group Since this is my first post, I guess I can vote yet ) but I would say more than two, but around 5 (maybe more). I pretty much read the Quran everyday and I keep a English translation app on my phone. In case theres the odd moment I feel like looking up random topics peace I'm a classic lurker! ssshhhh Salaam -Mariam, welcome to free-minds. Sorry Bender for using your thread to welcome -M fftopic May Allah guide us all to His true path pr mmKhan

I am all for philosophy, but by definition, how can Natural Law be lost? When 99.99% of humans follow the man-made one. I don't mean lost as you understood. But lost as people don't know it's the only good law there is ( with the guidance of Allah of course ) and they don't uphold it.

Salaam Indelwyn, What did you do to your son D. At first sight I thought it was blood, I thought o Indelwyn turned into some Shia sect hypno Well you know you have to train them early....lol Him and his HARAM birthday cake

Salaam Ask your self a question if allah has the power to do all the things then why did allah said "obey Allah and obey Messenger" why NOT "obey Allah and obey Muhammed"

"Pride bring it's own trouble".. You'll learn the limit as you grow wiser.. Salam / Peace