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General Issues / Questions

This area deals with any general questions/issues regarding God / Islam / Quran not covered under other headings.

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7.2k Topics 133.2k Posts
  • What faith would Person A be?

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    In response to http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27123#27123 I am wondering ... what would someone who has the following qualifications be considered? Certainly not an athesit or agnostic. Belives in a higher unknown power, possibly god. Unsure. Belives that if there is a god, that every thing, material, tangible, or intangible is part of god. Feels that the only way to find god, is to find it within yourself. When your are born, you are nothing. Not human, or anything except a material create. You do not have a inherited personality, beliefs, or knowledge. Every belief you have now, has been installed into you... you have to be taught that you are human... now not just a life. An analogy of this is... when you get a brand new computer... there is nothing on it. There is a BIOS... which tells you you need to breathe and eat and drink, but other than that you know nothing. Then, you have an operating system and programs installed into you... you suddenly are customized... you then can craft yourself, but it is very hard to change from these underlying setups. You are soiled from ever knowing anything else, except what you are told. There is no proof, there is no exsitance. Every belief you have has been installed on you, you were never trained to find your own. I think that god is an individualized experience. Some people need this "god" so they can understand larger concepts. (the term need is used as a synonom for want) You must find god inside of yourself... maybe to find out about yourself... who you are. Sort of like finding out what parts are in your computer... you need to find out whats running it all. Okay... bad explination i know.. but best i can come up with on the top of my head. Blaze
  • Peace, for now!!

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    Salaam Family, I am making the announcement that I would be missing in action and will not be able to frequent the discussion board for a while. NO, I am not abandoning Free-Minds/ProgressiveMuslims.org. I have a whole list of projects and goals that I would like to get started on and complete at least half of them before we hit 2005. I've grown to realize that I now have to take action and do what I learned has to be done in order to serve GOD and spread the message of GOD Alone and Quran Alone. As a result, I will have to sacrifice time dedicated to discussions on the forum. This is not a permanent arrangment. However, the time that it takes for me to succesfully complete at least half of my goals would dictate how long it would be for me to post on a regular, everyday basis again. This is actually why I've been sort of incognito for the past few weeks. Trying to do everything at once. I see now that I have to tackle these projects one at a time, step by step. Just to let you guys know. Nadia and Zenje, if you two are reading this, I did see your offers of assistance. May GOD bless you and I will definately come to you guys if I am need of your help and talents. Nadia, you asked if I will still pop in from time to time. Of course I will. No matter what, family should always keep in touch. By the way, you guys know that I'm only a pm or e-mail away. Even if I don't get back to you immediately, know that I WILL get back to you. Nadia, I haven't forgotten my promise to you. You'll be the first one to know when my work on polygamy is done. In fact, I thought I'd dedicate my time to getting that out of the way first. Brother Wakas, if you're reading this, I cannot and will not abandon the project that you have started. I was under the wrong impression of what you needed. Instead of looking up merely the definitions of words beginning with 'Ayn and Fa, I was looking up all of the Quranic occurances of all the words that begin with those two. Also, I haven't looked through the progress you've made on this project so far in the Quran Translation Room. If you're willing and able, can you pm or e-mail me what HAS NOT been done yet concerning 'Ayn and Fa. That way, I can look up what hasn't been done yet and take it from there. Here is a list, in no particular order, of what I feel to be the most important projects that I need to start on immediately ***Establishing a regular column or editorial in my local NewsPaper. If I were able to do that with an even more widely read media oulet, that would be even better. It's all in GOD's hands and what He wills is what I would be able to accomplish. I encourage everyone here to contact that local newspapers and see about getting a column started dedicated to exposing the wrong that is perpetrated by those who call themselves sunni and shia. ***Trying my best to acquire regular air time on a local or, GOD willing, even nationally heard radio talk show. There is a guy named Mike Savage who has a radio talk show. He's dedicated to Goerge Bush and he has no love for the muslim world. If I can get even a guest appearance on his show, it could help to educate those who are regular listeners of his program, and at the same time since I would be coming with something that is contrary to what is promoted by those he thinks are criminals, that may give us a better opportunity to getting our foot in the door. Don't get me wrong though, I am no fan at all of Michael Savage. He spews a lot of hate. But he has HUGE ratings and viewership. ***Possibly establishing a website of my own. You all are probably thinking that the world is in no need of another GOD Alone website. I would establish one dedicated to GOD Alone/Quran Alone. It would not push and favor one organizations agendas over any other. The Dominant agenda would be GOD's agenda. ***An important one for me....Putting together an entity or committee calling for the unity and cooperation of various GOD Alone organizations. The pushing theme and agenda of this entity would be the coming together of the more prominent organizations of the entire movement and working together on alot of venues to spread the overall message. Notice I did not say anything about exchanging views and interpretations. We need to put aside these petty differences and work together to combat a community that believes in killing apostates, beating women, stoning people to death, taking as many wives as they want as well as beating them, cutting off hands, forcing people to grow beards and wearing face veils othewise they face beatings and jailtime, suicide bombers who believe 72 wide eyed virgins are waiting for them in the hereafter as a reward from GOD for their treacherous deeds, etc. Is it not worth it to put aside petty differences of interpretation in order to bring some sort of GODLY order to the world??? ***Establishing a GOD Alone/Quran Alone publication. Either a monthly or bi-monthly one. ***Publish two books. The target audience of one book would be the GOD alone believers. The book would be addressing us taking part in spreading the message and dedicating ourselves to the overall movement and not be dedicated to any one agenda or organization. The other book would be an exposition of the corruption and lies that have grown to become the Islam that is known today. Sort of like the work that Aidid Safar is doing himself. And like him, it would have to be done under a pseudonym due to what I have to say in it. One final note...Layth if you're reading this, I want you to know that I want you to contact me so I can assist you in anyway I can to publize, market and promote the Quran Translation and The Natural Republic. You have my FULL and UNCONDITIONAL support!!! That's what it's about. Layth and I have discussed on numerous occasions our differences in interpretations on some things in The QT and in TNR, but he has my full and unconditional support in promoting both of them for three reasons It would be a shame not to help our brother when he's worked so hard in doing his duty before GOD. Our support and assistance to him is his right upon us as our brother. I'm able to overlook the minor differences and see the overall good in the QT and TNR. Overall, these two books are great and could do a lot in helping us to get our message out. It's not about me. Nor is it about my views and opinions vis-a-vis someone elses. It's about me working with Like Minded people who want to spread the message of the Quran as it should be. The same thing that "I" want to do. In this statement is a lesson for all of us. Salaam 'Alaikum Family, Damon.
  • life insurance

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    peace All, Someone asked me a question on whether life insurance is permissable in islam based on al quran? Anyone did some research on it? Got some relevant verses? Wakas
  • ---->Why Did You Choose That Image?

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    peace everyone! i was just wondering why you-all selected that specfic thumbnail as a representation of yourself. For example, i like red because it is a very agressive color, and i like birds (especially small ones) because they represent freedom. Why did you select that particular image as a visual representat of yourself?
  • God Alone Sects?

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    Peace to all, Recently i went to the Qxp/Bazm forums and was very disturbed and saddened by the state of affairs... God alone people have started labelling each other in categories, and judging who is rightly guided and who isn't...Free minds does not rate very highly as on the 'right path'... Why is this happening? Is this merely human nature creating dissent and putting ourselves in categories of who is right and wrong? Is this arrogance when we think we are better than? Or is it our excess baggage carried over from our days of association with sects that leads us down this way? We should be united under God alone, not dividing ourselves and hold fast to the rope of God... 6159 As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least their affair is with Allah He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. 2193 And they broke their religion (into sects) between them to Us shall all come back. 2353 But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects each party rejoices in that which is with itself. 3103 And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided. 3824 (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance). 3825 So We forgave him this (lapse) he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return. There is hope yet, we can still be vigilant and guard against thinking that will lead us wrong..against extremism, arrogance and the powerful pull of division. To those that think i might be exaggerating, please have a look at the following threads (some of the ones dealing with fm and coding that i could find, i'm sure by searching one can find many more) and namely the code system devised for labelling orgs, and please make sure you read the all replies to the posts. http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=21493 http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=21461
  • Why Words of God?

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    Dear all, There seem to be little or no dispute as to whether the Qur?an contains the words of God. But what could be the reason for its existence? Best regards Ali Omar
  • Is our level of Imaan proportional to our lvl of sprituality

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    I believe shamsul-arefin has started an excellent topic about how eating the meat of a pig can effect us. According to my knowledge i believe that disobeying any command of Allah will harm us in terms of our Imaan and also in terms of sprituality. The problem with this topic is that spirutality is intangible so i hope i don't confuse ppl here. Anyway to proove this futher let us use the Quran. So far i've goten verses from Surah AL-BAQARA (THE COW) 002.056 YUSUFALI Then We raised you up after your death Ye had the chance to be grateful. 002.057 YUSUFALI And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying "Eat of the good things We have provided for you" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls. 002.090 YUSUFALI Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith. 002.110 YUSUFALI And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah for Allah sees Well all that ye do. 002.130 YUSUFALI And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous 002.200 YUSUFALI So when ye have accomplished your holy rites, celebrate the praises of Allah, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers,- yea, with far more Heart and soul. There are men who say "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter. 002.223 YUSUFALI Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe. 002.231 YUSUFALI When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things. 002.265 YUSUFALI And the likeness of those who spend their substance, seeking to please Allah and to strengthen their souls, is as a garden, high and fertile heavy rain falls on it but makes it yield a double increase of harvest, and if it receives not Heavy rain, light moisture sufficeth it. Allah seeth well whatever ye do. 002.272 YUSUFALI It is not required of thee (O Messenger), to set them on the right path, but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleaseth. Whatever of good ye give benefits your own souls, and ye shall only do so seeking the "Face" of Allah. Whatever good ye give, shall be rendered back to you, and ye shall not Be dealt with unjustly. 002.281 YUSUFALI And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to Allah. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly. 002.286 YUSUFALI On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
  • Why repeat so many times?

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    Peace be upon you, I'd like to ask a question for which I've been searching an answer for a long time; of course, I do realize that the ultimate answer is with God alone, but any of your comments are much welcome too. In the Koran we are told that this Book contains every single thing we need to know for our salvation. It is complete. Nothing is left out. Nothing is omitted. No falsehood could ever enter it. In fact, we are told that if the ocean's were turned into ink supply, God's words still would'nt run out. Thus, God has said everything to us in this Book alone. Now, here's my question After reading the entire Book, I have noticed that one story is repeated so many times in so many chapters, why so? For Example 1.) The story of Moses speaking with God and then going to the Pharoh with his brother Aaron. 2.) God telling Moses how his mother threw him in the water to save his life by God's command. 3.) The story of Abraham debating with the idol worshippers and his father. 4.) The messengers giving Abraham the good news of Ishamel's birth. 5.) The messengers telling Abraham that they are going to punish Lot's people; save Lot, but not his wife. 6.) The story of Lot and the rebellious homosexual men who disobey God. 7.) The story of Noah, the ark, and the pagans around him. 8.) The story of Job. 9.) Adam's creation from dust. 10.) The devil disobeying God's commands and challenging God that he'd mislead all humans. 11.) The story of Aad and how they were destroyed. 12.) The story of Thamound and how they were destroyed. 13.) The stories of David and Solomon. 14.) The descriptions of heaven and hell. 15.) The description of the Day of Judgement. 16.) and a few more..... The point (or the question, I should say) that I am trying to make (or ask) is that why did God repeat the same thing to us so many times? Once was enough. If the Koran was all that we have for salvation why weren't there other things included in it instead of these same stories occuping about 45% (if not 50%) of the entire Text? Thank you, *
  • AOL Chat

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    Peace All This is like the last figment of replies from individuals in an AOL chat room who were speaking about the free-minds site in my link after they checked my web page. From before I was in an argument, moreso than a debate, with these fellows and more, and they of course deemed me kafir. One guy, TheWahhabiMyth was speaking about how Jihad means those who go out and fight a war to spread Islam. I corrected him and told him that he was making up definitions but he denied it. This guy also supports slavery and wants a few concubines and slave women from when the muslims will do jihad on America. Anyways I just want you all to see how violent and cruel those who call themselves 'muslimeen' can be. Also how they generalize and hate others who believe differently. We should learn to avoid such things ourselves. These people also believe they have a licence to kill non-muslims. The guy they're speaking about is me, my screen name on AOL is TheRasool83 CLIF2424 YO THE SIGHT IS PURE TRASH TheWahhabiMyth i dont know much about those guys CLIF2424 WS WR WB CLIF2424 I THINK RASOOL IS A XIAN CLIF2424 I THINK THE SITE IS MISSIONARY IxI s a b a lxl yea TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth probably TheWahhabiMyth but they do have quraniyyoon TheWahhabiMyth i met one before CLIF2424 I MET QURANIYAAS BEFORE IxI s a b a lxl i more than met one before CLIF2424 YO HES WACK TheWahhabiMyth umore than met one TheWahhabiMyth wth does that mena IxI s a b a lxl u dont wana know TheWahhabiMyth lol TallibYK yup their leader rashad khalifa .... the one who claimed prophethood TheWahhabiMyth oh aiite TheWahhabiMyth i get it IxI s a b a lxl yea CLIF2424 YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT SITE CLIF2424 WTF TheWahhabiMyth which one CLIF2424 READ IT TheWahhabiMyth freeminds TheWahhabiMyth ? TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 OMG CLIF2424 HES NOT MUSLIM YO TheWahhabiMyth that guy therasool is a crackhead no? CLIF2424 YEAH TheWahhabiMyth ofcourse hes not muslim TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 IVE READ THE SITE IxI s a b a lxl is it like submission.org TheWahhabiMyth ye CLIF2424 YO NOT EVEN CLOSE TO A MUSLIM TheWahhabiMyth basically IxI s a b a lxl ah TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 WOMEN DONT NEED TO GARB TheWahhabiMyth ye TheWahhabiMyth he said that before in the room CLIF2424 SUNNIS ARE JUST AS BAD AS SHIA TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth ye TheWahhabiMyth i told u akh CLIF2424 IT SAYS IT TheWahhabiMyth and this is the batil he promotes under the guise of islaam CLIF2424 TRADITIONAL ISLAM ALWAYS LOOSES TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth ;p; TheWahhabiMyth lol* CLIF2424 IM QUOTING' Mdrdsrall -) CLIF2424 FUQ HIM CLIF2424 I WILL BEAT THAT SUBMITTER LIKE THE MUNAFIQ HE IS CLIF2424 WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO PRAY WITH AUNT FLOW TheWahhabiMyth aunt flow? TheWahhabiMyth i didnt read that part TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 MENSTRUATION CLIF2424 ONLY ONE WIFE TheWahhabiMyth ye bro this one guy said women can make their salaat now when theyre on their period because we have tampons TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 LOL DIAPERS TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth basketball hes quoting from a site CLIF2424 DIVORCE IS COOL AFTER 4 MONTHS CLIF2424 ALL QUOTES CLIF2424 NOT ISLAM' TheWahhabiMyth he is quoting from a site that promotes falsehood under the guise of islaam CLIF2424 OONE IS ALLOWED TO BE STONED TheWahhabiMyth lol. CLIF2424 NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO BE STONED TheWahhabiMyth it is blatant kufr man TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth so simple CLIF2424 SUNNIES ARE A CULT SYNDROME TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 IN ISLAM YOU CANNOT RAID AN ATTACK ONLY DEFEND TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 SOLLAH IS ALLDAY NO AFFIXED TIMES TheWahhabiMyth crackheads yo TheWahhabiMyth they deny the 5 pillars TheWahhabiMyth look on the side TheWahhabiMyth the left hand side CLIF2424 THE "BLACK STONE " IS FOR CULTS AND SUPERSTICIOUSE PEOPLE TheWahhabiMyth what do u expect from a guy who calls himself the RASOOL TheWahhabiMyth ? TheWahhabiMyth zindeeq CLIF2424 365 DAYS IN A YEAR CLIF2424 MALES DONT HAVE TO BE CIRCUMSISED TheWahhabiMyth when i first seen him inhere i was already suspicious of him from the name TheWahhabiMyth then his kufr became more and more apparent CLIF2424 GOLD SILK AND STATUES ARE HALAL TheWahhabiMyth ye man this guy said the same thing to me once TheWahhabiMyth he said its halaal for men to wear gold and silk CLIF2424 AMERICAN GOV IS GOOD TheWahhabiMyth well he didnt say the statues part TheWahhabiMyth lol TheWahhabiMyth american govt is good TheWahhabiMyth oh ok XPiiNkLemOnade who saying all this? TheWahhabiMyth that explains everything CLIF2424 Now ask yourself Will God Alone be enough for you? TheWahhabiMyth these are therasool83's beliefs TheWahhabiMyth this is from the website he gets his deen from XPiiNkLemOnade seriously? TheWahhabiMyth yes TheWahhabiMyth its on his website XPiiNkLemOnade what's the website? TheWahhabiMyth if u go to his profile and click on the link CLIF2424 5 PILLARS DONT MEAN NOTHING TheWahhabiMyth and go down u'll see a link that says freeminds TheWahhabiMyth http//hometown.aol.com/therasool83/ TheWahhabiMyth go to my favorite places TheWahhabiMyth and click on free minds TheWahhabiMyth this is where hes gettin all this from CLIF2424 The below list are not LAWS, but when GOD makes a recommendation, it is always very advisable for us to 'hear & obey' in a guarantee that it will lead to happiness for all involved. XPiiNkLemOnade dude whoever made that site needs a major reality check TheWahhabiMyth lol piink IxI s a b a lxl dude CLIF2424 YO FUQ HIM XPiiNkLemOnade right? IxI s a b a lxl like CLIF2424 AND THE SUBMITTERS TheWahhabiMyth like totally CLIF2424 TOTALLY XPiiNkLemOnade i've been saying dude so much lately TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 FOR SURE CLIF2424 LIKE OMG XPiiNkLemOnade myth, do you think im gonna get brain-washed from that site? TheWahhabiMyth which one XPiiNkLemOnade free-mind TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 YOU CANNOT BE THAT DUMB PINK TheWahhabiMyth i dont know IxI s a b a lxl pink u probably shouldnt go there TheWahhabiMyth may Allaah protect us from sites like that TheWahhabiMyth ameen IxI s a b a lxl its not jus for dumb ppl XPiiNkLemOnade dude XPiiNkLemOnade i don't wanna think like that CLIF2424 LOL IDIOTS FALL FOR THAT STUFF IxI s a b a lxl but maybe wait til your older and more strong in ur imam CLIF2424 ITS LIKE 5 IxI s a b a lxl iman CLIF2424 %5% SHEET MANG IxI s a b a lxl .50 TheWahhabiMyth yo any muslim can tell that is a batil site TheWahhabiMyth even the one who has no knowledge about deen CLIF2424 BAATIL= FALSE TheWahhabiMyth its like so clear IxI s a b a lxl myth shht like that can be convincing CLIF2424 BAATIL BATOOL TheWahhabiMyth lol CLIF2424 NO IT CANT XPiiNkLemOnade im easily convinced CLIF2424 IT BLAINTANLY SAYS SUNNIES ARE WRONG Joe
  • Peace ya all!

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    Peace dear sisters and brothers, I just wanted to say selam to all. Unfortunatley stil can not follow dicussions regularly. But have noticed that meanwhile some people are 'missing'! Brother wakas, I have sent some words for root list but not quite sure that they passed towards your!. Pls check that and inform me. I was in big hurry what i sent them so that i could wait to check. I will gw be working on other words and sending you the same. Brother gazzali, i have recieved your message asking for my view on 'kana min al jini'and have tried to get to that but couldn't. could you pls provide with a link pls. once again peace to you all and God blessings, mh
  • The Baha'i Faith

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    Peace All, Until last year, I was completely ignorant of the faith called Baha'ism. I've had some minor interraction with a few Baha'is and must admit that I was very impressed with the level of tolerance and the overall peaceful demeanor. I understand where their faith differs from Islam and I really don't want to venture into the differences, as these topics have been discussed here at length. I'm more interested in your opinions regarding the grand scheme of things Would you consider Baha'is as believers? My opinion is yes. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they strive to contribute to society. Peace, Tay
  • What do you think of the naturalists ?

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    peace to all, well I am quite interested to know what you all think abt the naturalist ?(thats what they call themselves I guess) If I am not mistaken than I think they like to live in the most natural way as like being naked and stuff..P There are nude beach where you can find these type of ppl most. Its a one kind of faith I guess as the whole family lives naked and they seem to be very peaceful. As Quran gives freedom to others faith so how would a God alone country deal with such ppl and their faith ? peace
  • giving meaning to something

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    peace to all, I would like to share some thoughts that came out while discussing with my friend. mainly he brought up the topic and I think its interesting and quite true. I would like to ask a simple question. Whatever is happening is this world, every moment that is passing by and the things that we see everyday and understand, are these all created by us or something external ? Whatever is happening around us, Do we give "meaning" to it or does the "meaning" comes naturaly ? peace
  • Give ideas to improve God alone movement

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    peace to all, I have posted this topic here as most ppl dont visit other sections. May be it can be moved when enough attention is gathered..P Ok, I would like to ask the members here to give suggesation on how the "God alone" movement can be spread around the world through peaceful way. I think it needs to be more organized while not making it like a propaganda. We need to develop a natural system thru which the message will follow faster with more effectiveness. It is a good sign that we have mannaged to produce a Quran translation and also a book or articles. But I think that wont be enough to make some difference. We eed to track our sell of the books, and publish articles in various ezine or hardcopy magazine around the world. may be we can publish magazine of our own. What I had in mind was something like this... Make the TNR(the natural republic) as the main site. make FM(free-minds) as the research site. PM(progressive muslims) as the organizing body. All social issues and activity related stuff will be posted in TNR. and the research meterials will be in FM. We dont need to do something huge but what we can do is publish articles, magazines of our own. In order to do this I think we need to redesign our websites giving it a more dynamic look and also keeping the intigrity between all three of them. well this what I think......but it would be more interesting to know all of your opinion also..) So ppl..get that brain workin..D (sorry for my bad spellingP) peace to all
  • Farewell for the present.

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    Peace, When I first joined in December 2003, I followed the posts here until January when an international move made me absent for 4 months or so. I returned in May to find a very different place that had evolved in good and not so good ways. Anyhow I've been here two months again and its time for me to have another leave of absence. In the meantime, will be working on some projects that have been put off for too long now. I want to thank people who have discussed so many different things with me. God willing I will return to find things better and perhaps share some more things in the future. Stay well and pray for guidance. Sincerely, Oben
  • I`ll probably be absent a week or two

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    Peace I am going seaside for a week or two ...i am not sure if there I will have pc and net connection available ....so anybody that is discussing with me will have to wait for my replies...stay in peace.... Best wishes, Zlatan )
  • Homosexuals and the Myth of their Oppression

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    http//www.taliyah.org/images/ads/gaywads.jpg http//www.taliyah.org/articles/homo.shtml
  • Collaborative writing possibility.

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    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash SHA1 Peace, I just wanted to find out how many other people here are using MacOS X and are interested in collaborative writing projects. There is a program called SubEthaEdit that has unprecedented features for accomplishing this over the internet in real time. http//www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/ Unfortunately it is not available nor planned to be available on PC/Windows so this limits it to Mac users presently. There are other non real time systems such as Wiki etc that also work but have no great advantages over other traditional forms of collaboration. I think the time is ripe for something like this to happen. Anyone interested and having the needed Mac + software (free for non-commercial use) can reply here. Sincerely, Oben -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version PGP 8.1 - not licensed for commercial use www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBQPklGIoPbz3gOJK0EQKM/gCggz/bz3C7VRlazduagty1g5UETmEAoKa8 HFzBuODpTRqlHu6Z8tjeXJM7 =am+6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  • When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World?

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    Here is an interesting and thought provoking article which was forwarded by a fellow soulmate and freethinker ... ========================================== When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World? M. Gill Freethinking is a natural instinct. Children are curious about every thing and they ask questions all the time, which at times become irksome for the elders to answer. As they grow up, they get brain washed as to which questions are appropriate to ask and what others are inappropriate. This instinct is suppressed in the Muslim world at a fairly early stage in life because questioning is discouraged by the parents and the elders. It is curiously considered a sign of disrespect. According to a common adage among the Muslims, questions should not be asked in matters of religion ? particularly about Islam; religion should be practiced uncritically according to the usual rituals. For the troubleshooters, there is the law of ?blasphemy?. According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, ?freethinker is one that forms opinion on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially one who doubts or denies religious dogma.? Take for instance the Ptolemaic thesis Earth is stationary and is the center of the universe. The Sun and other planets revolve around Earth. This was based on Ptolemy?s astronomy, which somehow became an article of Christian faith. One could have disagreed with Ptolemy?s formulation with impunity if it didn?t have the Christian underpinnings. When it became an article of religious faith, denying it became a blasphemy punishable by death. For example, Giordano Bruno was burnt alive on the stake for his expressed belief in heliocentricity. A freethinker doesn?t refute a statement just for the heck of it; he should have a good sound reason to do so otherwise it becomes wholly subjective and a matter of ?my word against yours.? So Ptolemy?s formulation held sway for centuries until it became obvious through observations that his astronomy had become unnecessarily too cumbersome and alternate formulation could explain matters much simply. The time was opportune for the heliocentric theory to replace the geocentric concept. But the faith in gocentricity had become ingrained and dogmatic. The freethinking scientists, Galileo and others, had to take a firm position against the Church and suffer for it before the geocentric concept was replaced by the heliocentric theory. A lesser but equally vitriolic issue pertained to the Throne of God (Sura 7, verse 54, Holy Quran, for example) in medieval Islam. It was hotly debated whether God actually ?sits on His Throne? in the heavens or is it just an allegorical and figurative statement? For a modern freethinker, the throne issue is largely meaningless because there is a bigger issue (of which this is a minor extension), which needs serious consideration and resolution, if possible. The bigger and more fundamental issue for him is whether a Christian God or Islamic Allah (defined and described by the ninety nine attributes) can possibly exist or not. Some of these attributes conflict with each other. A freethinker is not necessarily an unbeliever although a believing freethinker has to make compromises with his religious faith. Thus a freethinker can be a theist, an atheist, or any one ?in-between.? The one in-between is usually called agnostic. For example, Bertrand Russell was an agnostic, nearer to atheism. When did Freethinking Begin in Islam? Freethinking began in Islam with the Mutazilites. The founder of Mutazilism was Wasil bin Ata (d. 74. When Islam expanded into foreign lands outside Arabia, the Muslims came in contact with Egyptians, Syrians, and Greeks living in these lands. Greek philosophy and rational sciences existed in these lands and the early Muslims were naturally influenced by them. Their blind faith in the divine revelation was thus confronted by rational thought and many people started questioning the viability of the dogma in the divine scriptures. Such an experience was quite new to the Muslims who were intellectually challenged to reconcile some of the improbable scriptural text with reason. When suitable bridge could not be built and mutual reconciliation seemed impossible, recourse was made to reinterpretation of the scriptural text for resolving the (apparent) conflict. Such an effort was spearheaded by the first Arab philosopher al-Kindi, which was later formalized by ibn Rushd into a doctrine, which was called the doctrine of the double truth. He (2) argued, ?Since this religion is true and summons to the study which leads to knowledge of the Truth, we the Muslim community know definitely that demonstrative study does not lead to (conclusions) conflicting with what Scripture has given us; for truth does not oppose truth but accords with it and bears witness to it.? This doctrine was also unsuccessfully used by Galileo in his reasoning with the Church. In the light of such arguments, it was suggested that where a conflict appears to exist between reason and the Scripture, Scriptural language should be considered allegorical which needs to be suitably interpreted to achieve harmony between the two. The literalists however wouldn?t have any of this. According to them, Quran needed to be understood literally; any allegorical symbolism is innovation (bid?at), which does not have any place in the religion. So according to them (1), ?God?s settling Himself firmly upon His throne is known, the how of it is unknown belief in it is obligatory, and questioning about it is an innovation. Any speculation about sacred things was considered an innovation. Every dogma was to be believed in without raising questions how or why (bila kaifa).? The period in which rationalism was tangled with orthodox thought lasted for about four to five hundred years. In spite of its stresses and strains, this was a very productive period of intellectualism in the Muslim world. Some of the top-notch philosophers who belonged to this period were al-Kindi, al-Farabi, al-Razi, ibn Sina, and ibn Rushd among many others. Likewise, some of the contemporary excellent theologians such as al-Ghazali, and eminent jurists like the four Imams, the founders of the four schools of jurisprudence, namely Abu Hanifa, Shafi?i, Malik, and Hanbal lived in this glorious period of Islamic ascendancy. Two of the excellent philosophical works, which are still extant and widely read and used as reference source material are al-Ghazali?s Incoherence of the Philosophers, and ibn Rushd?s Incoherence of the Incoherence of the Philosophers. Al-Ghazali?s kalam argument has recently been used by the Christian theists for the existence of God in their debates with the Humanist atheists. Al-Razi?s al-Hawi and ibn Sina?s al-Qanun-fi-al-Tibb (popularly known as Canon in the west) were encyclopedic works on medicine which were used as text books in the European universities almost into the seventeenth century. Then the curtain fell and intellectual darkness started creeping into the Muslim world until in due time it was completely engulfed by it. When did Rational Thought vanish from the Muslim World? Ibn Rushd (1126-119 is said to be the last philosopher of the Muslim world. He was abandoned by the Muslim world and was totally eclipsed by al-Ghazali. He however was instrumental in starting a new era of intellectual enlightenment in Europe. Greek philosophy was introduced into Europe through ibn Rushd?s commentaries and Arabic translations of Aristotle and other Greek philosophers. His works were translated into Latin and avidly read in Europe. The Muslim world was overtaken by mysticism and metaphysics. All the philosophers subsequent to ibn Rushd, in the Muslim world, were metaphysicians. The Muslim world lost touch with the physical reality and drowned itself in the ?otherworldliness.? The Muslims lived their lives to lose materialism (no material comforts) and to make a smooth passage to the ?other world? through recitation (zikr), meditation, ritual prayer, and other associated practices. Eschatology became more important than rational and physical sciences. This brought us to the crossroads where we find ourselves standing now and wondering, ?What happened?? Did the World Begin with Islam? The Old Testament narrates the story of the creation of the world by God in six days and is a short history book of the Jewish prophets. After reading it, a thought comes to mind as if the world began with the Jews; nobody else of any import appears to have existed in the world other than the Jews and the animals, which were rescued by Noah in his ark during the Great Flood. Later, Jesus Christ (a Jew) was elevated to the level of the Ultimate Redeemer of mankind who atoned for their sins by dying at the Cross. So, according to Christians, Christianity supplanted Judaism as the righteous and divinely revealed religion. Every thing that is good and needed for the redemption of mankind is in the Bible, which is the ?word of God?. The Jews by and large disagree with the Christian comprehension and postulation. According to Islamic faith, both Christian and Jewish books are corrupted by alterations and interpolations and are thus not the genuine divine scriptures in their present form. The original texts are lost and are irretrievable. There was thus a need for reviving the true word of God and the Quran does that precisely. Many orthodox Muslims like to believe that all of the human knowledge (that exists, and then some more) is already there in the Quran. The question whether the Quran is ?created? or ?uncreated? was the subject of hot debate in the heydays of Islamic glory. The freethinkers (Mutzalites) claimed it was created while the orthodoxy believed it was not; they believed that it was uncreated. The issue was not resolved and is still pending, either side being unable to comprehend the feasibility of the other?s viewpoint. The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) focus only on the people who follow these religions while the remaining humanity is glaringly diminished if not completely ignored. What about Buddha, Krishna, and Confucius? There is no mention of them and their teachings in any of the Abrahamic holy books. Similarly, what about the great ancient Babylonian, Hindu, Chinese, and Egyptian civilizations? Egyptian civilization is marginally mentioned in the anecdotes involving Moses and the Pharaoh but nothing is mentioned how great these civilizations were. If these (the Abrahamic) religions are truly divine and universal, why would God ignore His own people, the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Hindus, Chinese and others? The world was not created for the Abrahamic people only. The world did not begin with Islam (or, did it?), per se, but according to the traditional belief, it is in accord with the holy book. So, a necessary corollary to this line of argument is that Quran is sufficient in itself and by itself. If there appears any internal contradiction in the text, it is not real; it is human misunderstanding. What more would one need to seal the Muslim mind? Opening the Muslim Mind Again There is an ongoing intense struggle between the rationalists and the conservatives in the Muslim world. The conservatives look backward to the glories of Islam and insist on going back to the original roots of Islam while the rationalists are tugging to move forward into the modern world. There is a catalytic realization in several Muslim countries that they should have nuclear deterrent like several non-Muslim countries. They also realize that the non-Muslim world would not help them in this venture; they have to develop such a deterrent by their own efforts and resources. For this, they need to have their own scientists equipped with the latest know-how in nuclear science and technology. They will perforce have to relax (or release) the stranglehold on the rationalists. The scientists need to be freed from the bonds and shackles of the mullahs and orthodoxy. The mullahs need to be controlled and awakened to the existing realities. A process of re-education is needed not only for the scientists but for the orthodox mullahs also. The taboo subjects (philosophy and rational sciences) need to be taught and learnt. Philosophy, call it the western philosophy, if you will, by itself doesn?t take you to the stage at which you can craft scientific theories and validate them empirically. It does however teach you how to think rationally, analytically, and creatively, which is prerequisite for doing science. The same kind of effort should go into the development of technology. A philosopher is not a scientist but is an integral part of the society in which science and technology germinate and prosper. If we need to seek any spiritual inspiration in scientific matters from our forefathers, we should go to ibn Rushd and not to al-Ghazali. Both of them are now outdated anyhow. We need to imbibe from the west because that is where the scientific knowledge is. And thank God we, who are living in the west, are doing that. We are part of the west. The west and the western knowledge are taboo words in the Muslim world. We need to give them respect, which they deserve. Remember, the west began its quest for the scientific and creative knowledge by learning from the Arabs. The Europeans learnt Arabic language to read the science and philosophy books written by the Arabs. It appears so remote now that it seems hard to believe that their edifice of scientific excellence was raised on the foundations laid down by our forefathers. In due time, they translated these books in their own languages. Now the process is reversed; we need to learn and recapture from the west what we have lost in the recent centuries. There should be no hesitation in doing so. Renaissance of the Muslim World Renaissance of the Muslim world will require an unremitting and concerted effort. A few positive things have happened recently which should be optimally exploited to move forward. Professor Abdus Salam?s contributions in the modern physics are a matter of great pride for the whole Muslim world. His example should be followed and consistent progress should be attempted in science. His individual contributions were not the result of any formal process of renaissance in the Muslim world but his example could be used to stimulate a renewal and rejuvenating process in the Muslim society. Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan?s contributions need also not be minimized due to his selfish pursuit of personal aggrandizement. He helped in putting Pakistan on the nuclear map of the world, which was not a mean feat of achievement in the given circumstances. The upside of his efforts should be appreciated and followed forgetting the downside aspects of his personal character (I do not have first hand knowledge of his personal character and any of my remarks pertaining to it are merely conjectural and taken from the news media). Again, his example should be used to spark interest in the development of technology. The future of Islamic renaissance probably lies in the west where millions of Muslim immigrants have moved to live. Religious freedom and freedom of thought in these countries are bound to fire up the interest of the Muslim generations growing up and going to school in the west. They will be free to demarcate milestones in the work that they choose to do. Muslim theology scholars may (and will) emerge from them to reinterpret Quran in appropriate ways to disentangle and release the Muslim world from the clutches of 1400 years old culture. It is futile to foist an old and outdated culture on to the 21st century electronically wired and globalized world and expect productive results. References 1.M. Abdul Hye, ?Ash?arism,? in ?A History of Muslim Philosophy,? Vol. I, ed. M.M. Sharif, Low Price Publishing, Delhi-110052, p. 222, 1999. 2.Hourani, Albert, ?A History of the Arab Peoples,? Warner Books, A Time Warner Company, pp. 174-75, 1992.
  • WHY WAS DHULQARNAIN BANNED?

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    Peace, TO THE MODS Id like to know why Dhul was banned. What exactly did he do to get himself banned? Sara