General Issues / Questions

go to http//www.harunyahya.com/knowingthetruth01.php http//www.harunyahya.com/matter.php http//www.harunyahya.com/matrix.php http//www.harunyahya.com/eternity01.php http//www.harunyahya.com/timelessness01.php for more on this Day 1 We are so familiar with seeing, that it takes a leap of imagination to realize that there are problems to be solved. But consider it. We are given tiny distorted upside-down images in the eyes, and we see separate solid objects in surrounding space. From the patterns of simulation on the retinas we perceive the world of objects, and this is nothing short of a miracle. R.L. Gregory2 This important conversation begins on a weekend in a summerhouse outside the city. MURAD I really feel I know all of you after reading your letters. It's like we're old friends, meeting after a long absence and just picking up where we left off. You asked just the right questions. In fact, I hope as we talk and share ideas, you'll find the answers are more simple and precise than you can imagine. To explain a few technical matters I brought pictures and diagrams. Now, who's going to ask the first question? IBRAHIM I'd like to start first since I don't know much about the subject. I've read books that say, our lives are only composed of images that have nothing to do with the external world. Is that true? MURAD That's right. IBRAHIM Well I'd like to know what this image is then. MURAD Ibrahim, isn't your specialty biology? IBRAHIM Yes. MURAD To understand this subject, it's necessary to know how our five senses work. We all remember high school biology but since you, Ibrahim, are advanced in that science, starting with the sense of sight, can you tell us how the five senses work? IBRAHIM Technically speaking the sense organs are part of a very intricate system that'll take hours to explain. Each organ has its own complex system. Volumes have been written about the way the ears make hearing possible, alone. But it's possible to at least explain this complex system in a few words. What we call external stimuli, that is, an outside effect stimulating our nerve endings such as light, sound, taste, smell and hardness, reach our sense organs ? the eye, the ear, the tongue, the nose and the skin. Here the first stage begins the nerve endings receive the stimulation and convert it into an electric signal that can be transmitted by the nerves. In the second stage these electric signals are carried to the relevant centers in the brain related to sight, hearing, smell and taste. In the last stage, when the brain perceives these signals, it gives the appropriate response. The stimuli coming from an object or from some food are converted into electric signals and, after passing through a series of processes, reach the brain to be perceived in the 'smell' center. MURAD Ibrahim, you explained it well. Yes, the system works in this way but at the cognitive stage of perception, that is, the stage when we understand what it is we sense, the system becomes much more complex. For example, we're sitting here looking at a pond. The signals of the senses create impressions belonging to the pond and its surroundings... Impressions from the surrounding area such as the smell of flowers, birds singing, the texture of the table and countless elements that form the images come together. The impression is then compared with information stored in our memory and the relevant center of our brain makes sense of our surroundings.Now Ibrahim, would you tell us what operation takes place when we see that tree over there? IBRAHIM It's simple. The information about the tree, that is, its color, distance, and dimensions are carried to my eye by means of light. Inside the eye, this information is converted into an electric signal and fed to the nerves, and then the nerves transport this information to the brain's sight center. These signals reach the sight center and the brain perceives them as a tree. Someone who thinks that he is sitting and conversing with friends in a bright outdoor place is like someone watching a cinema screen. The friends sitting with him and the vastness of the view he sees around him are images formed in the sight center of his brain. He has no relation with anything outside his brain. MURAD Is this tree standing over there now or is it in the brain's sight center? IBRAHIM It's in the brain's sight center, of course. AHMED Just a minute. Okay, the impression of the tree may be in my brain but the tree is standing over there! I can go and pick a fruit from it or lean against it and sit in the shade. MURAD Let's not rush it and look at the subjects in order. Think for a moment about everything that makes a tree a tree ? its colors, branches, leaves ? all are perceived in the sight center of our brain.When we touch a tree or pick a fruit from it we experience an impression of sight, sound, taste, smell and touch, sent to the brain from all our five senses.We never have a connection with anything outside our perceptions. Without the sense of sight we can't see; if we don't have the sense of hearing, we can't hear. In fact, the things we perceive in our brains by means of the senses make up much of our whole life. AHMED Okay I accept that. But look. I'm reaching out and taking a bite of cake and eating it with pleasure. Once I've eaten the cake it gives me energy. Would it be right to say that I have no connection with the reality of this? Can we taste something without having anything to do with its reality? MURAD In fact, earlier in the example of the tree the question was answered. The cake, the tree and the table are in the cognitive center of your brain. But don't worry!We'll find examples later that'll make this clearer! But to sum it up now; everything we know about the world is composed of signals communicated to us by our senses. Apart from the information of those signals carried to the brain, we can never give an answer to questions like, ''What is the reality of these things like?", "Does reality and what we perceive have exactly the same quality?''It's not possible to go beyond our senses and get outside them. For this reason, throughout our whole lives, the world we see in our brain is perceived by the sense organs. Look, what the famous philosopher Bertrand Russell in his book The Problems of Philosophy emphasizes in situations which results from grappling with this problem. Before we go farther it will be well to consider for a moment what it is that we have discovered so far. It has appeared that, if we take any common object of the sort that is supposed to be known by the senses, what the senses immediately tell us is not the truth about the object as it is apart from us, but only the truth about certain sense-data which, so far as we can see, depend upon the relations between us and the object. Thus what we directly see and feel is merely 'appearance', which we believe to be a sign of some 'reality' behind. But if the reality is not what appears, have we any means of knowing whether there is any reality at all? And if so, have we any means of finding out what it is like?3 AISHA I can give an example.I'm studying in the computer department, so this subject is a familiar one and I find the topic interesting. In countries where technology is highly developed, a lot of entertainment and education media have been created. And you know computer programs make up a great part of it. These are able to create a three-dimensional image in the brain. Today the principal aim of these 3-D computer games, so fascinating for children, is to give the illusion of real life in an imaginary setting by stimulating the five senses. Education in some professions from NASA astronauts to architects and engineers is done by the use of three dimensional imaging, called simulation. In simulation flight training, a pilot can't tell the difference between real flight conditions and simulated conditions, created by the computer. The subject of many great science fiction films we see is the idea that human life is constituted of impressions or virtual worlds formed in the brain. IBRAHIM Aisha's right. The world of science is no different. Ten years ago, no one would even dream of this topic. Now, of course, it's a major theme of discussion. There has been so much work in this area that it's getting easier and easier for a computer to form a non-existent world out of electrical signals and to have human beings experience a desired impression by means of these signals.A great deal of physics, atomic and biological research topics are shaped by this technology. MURAD You're so right! Developments in technology produce new examples that help people understand this subject more quickly. But I must make it clear that it's easier to grasp this subject by approaching it with an open mind. Even if we didn't know any of the examples you gave, nothing would change because the situation is extremely clear to me. But it's possible that a person who had never thought about this subject before will at first find it a bit strange. To learn that something we have accepted from birth as true, is, in fact, very different from what we have believed it to be, will cause various reactions in people. But if someone's basic aim is to learn the truth, he must accept the truth without resistance.For this reason, the examples we experience every day will assure that we grasp this reality much better. Besides, it's not enough just to explain the subject technically. We must go beyond this and look at the results. AHMED I've understood what you said up to this point. But I'm curious about where this subject will lead us. It's a little difficult in a moment to get used to a subject that's so unfamiliar. MURAD I think that all of you have understood the situation we find ourselves in.Anyway, it's not so hard to understand since it's a clear truth accepted by science.But since it's necessary for you to come to a definite opinion on this matter, let's look at it again from a different point of view. Now, Aisha, can you tell us about a dream that deeply affected you and that stayed in your conscious memory? AISHA Just last night I had a dream that really struck me. I was being attacked by wild beasts in a forest.I was terrified and running as fast as I could along a rough trail when my foot got caught in some brush and I fell. The animals came closer.I ran into a hut, slammed the door and locked it.Now the beasts were trying to get to me from the windows. I picked up an iron bar, trying desperately to defend myself and to escape. At that point I was awakened by a car horn. When I realized it was only a dream, I took a deep breath and was relieved. MURAD What's the difference between what we experience while awake and our dreams? Maybe you never thought that.Maybe it never entered your mind, but dreams will help a lot to understand this subject. Even if a dream is extremely vivid while it takes place, from the moment we immerse ourselves in daily life, the dream loses its clarity and effect.Someone, who woke up in a sweat from a nightmare a little while ago, soon eats breakfast with none of the disturbing feelings his dream evoked. Or a child who is awakened for school in the midst of a pleasant dream, quickly forgets the delight of the dream by the time he washes his face. The events in a dream are sometimes so vivid that often, when people awaken, they wonder whether or not the dream was real. In fact, technically speaking, there's little difference between the world we experience while awake and the dreams we have while asleep. In the course of a dream, a person can experience anything that happens while awake; he can talk, eat, breathe, run, laugh, cry, feel pain and so on. The dream world is a copy of the every-day world. Therefore, people react to events in dreams as though they were real.Sometimes they wake up screaming from a frightening dream and don't want to wake up at all from a pleasant one. AHMED Last month I had a vivid dream too. In my dream, I was driving along the shore in a motorboat cutting through the water as I went. My friends gathered on the shore, admiring the new boat. I stepped on the gas to impress them. I remember very well the vivid smell of the sea, and the strong wind and cold spray of salty water on my face as the high powered speed boat sped through the water. Occasionally I had to wipe the mist of the seawater spray from my glasses. Suddenly, the boat struck a rock and began to sink.I jumped into the sea and swam to shore with great difficulty. Then I woke up and was sweating profusely. After that dream I wasn't able to get into a motorboat for a while. MURAD The events in your dream were very vivid, weren't they? Now try to remember the details of the dream. For example, Ahmed, can you distinguish the sounds, colors, smells - and the emotions you felt as you drove the boat ? such as fear, hunger and joy from what you experience in a waking state? AHMED Probably not. IBRAHIM I also had a dream the other day I confused with real life. That evening I wanted to go to bed early because the next day we were going to go to the Islands to have a meal with my family. My sister went to sleep in her own room. Since I was tired, I immediately fell asleep. In my dream, I asked my sister to wash and iron my new shirt. I stood there myself and watched her ironing my shirt.When I got up in the morning, Asra had placed the shirt in the place I wanted, and I wasn't quite sure if it was real or I was dreaming.Had my sister really ironed my shirt or was it a dream?I thought for a minute and decided that it was real, then I went to thank my sister. When my sister acted surprised, I realized that all this had happened in my dream. MURAD Yes, sometimes dreams can be so vivid they're confused with real life. Besides, I want to remind you again, there's no difference between what we see while dreaming and what we see while awake. In both states, we have the same reaction to the same stimuli. For example, we sense the full taste while eating, we feel fear and flee from dangerous situations, and feel joy in a happy situation. Although from time to time we experience unusual things, our reactions are the same. AHMED I totally agree. Even that time in the sea when I was swimming and trying to save myself I remember how cold the water felt. MURAD But even more interesting is how it is that we see the things we experience in dreams. Ibrahim, can you tell us where we see our dreams? IBRAHIM Easy. We see dreams in our brain. I mean, just as we experience everything in daily life in our brain's cognition center so do we experience them in a dream. Technically speaking, there's no difference. MURAD To this point you've listened to what's been said. So Ahmed, tell us how is it that, at night, with our eyes closed, such a clear and colorful world is formed in the dark recesses of our brain? How does the sun shine, and how are flowers so colorful and the sea so blue?How can we see these things with our eyes closed? Don't we need our eyes to see? AHMED I don't have a clue though I know the dream I had seems to be proof of that. MURAD Even if we don't receive a stimulus from outside, in other words, even if our sense organs are really unaffected by stimuli we call the world ? elements such as light, color and dimension ? we can still see and feel.In order for a world to be formed by means of the operation of all these perceptions, we have no need of the signals that our sense organs bring from the outside. What sees is not the eye and what hears is not the ear. If all these perceptions were produced artificially and transmitted directly to the relevant center in our brain, we would eat a cake that didn't exist, we would go to a country that didn't exist, we would smell a flower that didn't exist and we wouldn't perceive that all these things were imaginary. AHMED What do you mean? MURAD When we're full, our stomach sends a signal to our brain. If the same signal is sent to the brain without having eaten, we would still feel full. As in the earlier example, imagine that you're looking at a tree. There are signals related to the tree that your eyes send to your brain. If we were to artificially produce the same signals, and transmit them to the relevant nerves, we would see the same tree without eyes. IBRAHIM The earlier examples of a virtual world explains this matter completely. Look, in order to understand this matter better, let me expand the topic with a few more examples.As you know, with the advance of technology, devices called simulators are used in many fields. A life-like but imaginary environment is created and accessed by the use of a helmet, visor and a glove to make the connection. Those hooked up to the connections can experience an environment as if it was real. In a simulator, the fingers of a person wearing the glove are stimulated by a mechanism which sends signals from the finger-tips to the brain and the person thinks, for example, he's petting a cat. There is a similar mechanism in the helmet. In order that the impression appears more realistic, signals go from the helmet to the person's brain, and as a result, the image of a cat is formed in the brain. The person also hears the sound of a cat. In this way, the appearance, the sound and the feel of a cat are perceived completely. Without there being a single cat to be found, the person really feels that he's petting a cat. AHMED Now I understand. AISHA Me, too. Just think. If someone came to me while I was having the dream I had, and said, ''Don't be afraid. It's only a dream and not real. What you see is only in your mind and you're safely in bed."I doubt if I would believe him. Yes, now I understand much better; scientifically and logically there is no difference between what I see in a dream and what I see while awake. It's already common for people to experience computer generated virtual reality. I saw a movie about virtual reality the other day. It was about the same thing we're discussing now. The heroes of the film were hooked up to a computer, found themselves transported to different places. For example, they thought they were in a gym doing Oriental martial arts but in fact never moved from the chair in front of the computer in that small room. One of the characters tried to explain to the person hooked up to the computer that what he was seeing was really just illusions. The film's hero didn't believe it, and he was only convinced when the computer images froze. IBRAHIM I saw that film too, but I didn't think of it from that angle. AHMED Murad, I see the point too, but can you give more examples to help us understand better? MURAD Sure! Let's go back to your dream. When you were swimming did you feel the coldness of the water, the buoyancy, taste the salt?While swimming, did you feel the exertion and then the fatigue? And did you hear the sounds of waves, seagulls, and other details your senses picked up during the dream? AHMED Yes. MURAD Were you convinced that what you were experiencing during the dream was really happening? AHMED Yes. MURAD Our experience of life in the real world, like the images in our dreams, is even more convincing. The impressions we perceive are so many, so clear and detailed that many people lead their whole lives believing they have some connection with the reality of all they see. But the same thing is also true for your dream as in your dream you thought you had some connection with the sea or the chair where you were sitting. If you think carefully for a moment, you'll understand that the things you experience in your dreams and the life you live while awake are composed of the same impressions. AHMED I understand this but when I wake up from a dream, I come back to the real world which is in the same place where it was before I fell asleep. So, it is obvious that there is a world existing apart from our impressions. Right? MURAD What we call the material world is a place we know little about and in fact, we may never understand. Apart from what our senses pick up and our impressions, we can neither see nor feel matter. From the day we open our eyes, we're always affected by impressions. Everything that makes up our daily life ? school, family, toys, food, a bus, friends, a scenic view, home, the workplace ? in other words, everything is composed of a film playing in the brain. Because a person will never be able to get outside of his senses, it's not possible to see what's outside. For this reason, everyone actually lives an entire life relating to impressions of the world that are in his brain. AHMED But people go to the moon and I can get on a plane and go to another city. Doesn't that mean that space exists? MURAD Basically, ideas such as space, depth, size also form a part of an impression. It's possible to understand this with the help of some simple examples. In your dream, did you see the moon and the stars? Or, as in your dream, did you get in a boat and go for a ride? AHMED Yes. MURAD The moon and stars in your dream are in the same space as the stars you see while awake. Is that right? AHMED Yes, but... IBRAHIM Can I answer that? I studied this in an Optics course. What we call space is a kind of three-dimensional seeing. What stimulate the sense of space and depth in an impression are certain factors such as perspective, shadow and movement. MURAD True. The kind of impression called space in the science of Optics is part of a very complex system just as the impression of color is, but to put it simply we can say, basically, that an impression that comes to our eyes has only two dimensions. That is, it has height and width. The fact that the dimensions of an impression meet the eye at an angle and that the two eyes see two different impressions at the same time, causes the sensation of depth and space. Every impression that strikes one eye is different from the impression that strikes our other eye from the point of view of elements such as light and position. When the brain brings these two impressions into one picture, we get the sense of space and depth. Come on, let's try an experiment in order to understand this better. Ibrahim will be the subject. IBRAHIM Okay. MURAD First, stretch your right arm and show us your index finger. Now, focus your eyes on your finger and open and close your right and left eyes one after the other. Because two different impressions strike your two eyes, you will see that your finger changes place or slides slightly. Now, continue to focus your eyes on your right index finger and bring your left index finger as close as possible to your eyes. You will notice that the finger closer to you has formed a double image which proves that an impression of depth different from that of the farther finger is formed in the system of perception. Now, while you are in that position, if you open and close your eyes one after the other, you will see that the closer finger changes place more than that farther finger because the difference between the two impressions striking the eye has been increased. IBRAHIM Yes, you're right. AISHA I did it too. It occurs to me now that the same technique is used in making a three-dimension film. An image shot from two different angles is projected on the same screen. Viewers put on a pair of special color filter or polarized filter glasses. The filters in the glasses receive one of the two images and the brain brings these two together making a three dimensional image. Is that right? MURAD Right! Now, let's try another experiment. Aisha, close one eye and look around you. You continue to have an impression of depth, don't you?How is it that a clear impression like three dimensions can be formed on a single, two-dimensional retina? The answer to this lies in the elements of depth that operate when you look with one eye. The way a sense of depth is formed on a two-dimensional retina is very much like the technique used by an artist trying to get a realistic sense of depth in a two-dimensional picture. A few artists are very successful in achieving this sense of depth. There are a few important methods that go into its formation; these are positioning one object on top of another, the perspective of atmosphere, texture, linear perspective, dimension, height and movement. I brought some pictures to illustrate. MURAD Putting images one on top of the other is an important method of creating the sense of depth. Ahmed, it's your turn for an experiment. Now, take one of these two pens in one hand and one in your other hand. Hold them a little distance from your eyes but don't put them on top of each other.Now, move one pen a little farther away and close one eye. Without looking with both eyes, it's very difficult to know which one is farther away, isn't it? AHMED Yes, you're right. MURAD Now, with one eye closed, bring the two pens close together and place one in front of the other. Now you can measure space and depth much better, can't you? AHMED True. MURAD The famous American psychologist James J. Gibson was one of the first to understand the importance of change of texture in the sensation of depth.The surface we walk on, a road, or a field full of flowers is actually a texture. The textures close to us are more detailed while those more distant appear indistinct. For this reason, it is easier to make a judgment about the distance of an object which is placed on a texture. AISHA As you were speaking a sunflower field I saw yesterday came to my mind. Putting all these things together, I understand much better why the field appeared so vast. MURAD And when the elements of shadow and light are brought into the picture, the three-dimensional image is complete. For example, the reason we admire a painting is because of the sense of reality and depth, and the use of shadow and perspective. Perspective arises from the perception that things in the distance appear to the viewer as smaller in relation to things that are near. For example, when you look at a landscape painting, the trees in the distance appear small and the trees that are close appear big. Or the image of a mountain in the background is drawn smaller than the image of a person standing in the foreground. In linear perspective, an artist uses parallel lines. Train tracks joining on the distant horizon gives the sense of depth and distance. AISHA So it appears that what we call depth and space is an impression formed in our brain. MURAD True. You see, because these elements are applied in art and that details come together, a realistic and convincing world emerges, formed from our impressions. AHMED You mean like the way we used to watch snowy images on black and white television and not get as involved in the action? Now we go to the cinema and, if the film is well made, we get caught up in it and feel as if it's real. The other day I went with my family to a three-dimensional film about dinosaurs. They gave us each a pair of glasses. The dinosaurs looked so real to me that I reflexively reacted when they jumped out at me.And I couldn't persuade the children that they weren't real. MURAD Right Ahmed. The more intricately the details of an impression are woven, such as light, shadow, and dimensions, the more realistic it appears and deceives our senses.And so we react as if three-dimensional space and depth is real. But every impression is formed on a single surface as on a frame of film. The sight center of our brain has an area of one cubic centimeter; that is, as small as a chickpea. All those things we see in the distance such as far-away houses, stars in the sky, the moon, the sun, airplanes and birds in the air, occur in this small area. In other words, there is technically no distance between an airplane which you may say is thousands of kilometers up in the air and a glass you can reach out and take with your hand. It's all on a single surface in the brain's center of perception. AHMED I understand too. There's no longer any doubt that space and depth are particular to the brain just like sight, sound and taste. But what does this change?That is what I can't understand. I mean, what difference does it make if everything is an impression in my brain? MURAD Then answer these questions. With what evidence can we claim that we have a relation to a material world outside our perceptions?Do we have any proof that we're in touch with the reality of things? AHMEDGive me a moment to think about that.If we look at what we've talked about so far, it seems there's no proof. But isn't it true that these images arise from concrete, absolute material objects? MURAD Ahmed, what is it that which you call absolute matter? AHMED It's just anything that has mass and volume; something that I can hold in my hand, see with my eyes; that exists separately and occupies space. MURAD So is that car parked up there a material object? AHMED Yes. MURAD What qualities make that car a material object? AHMED Things like the metal used in its manufacture, the colors and then its size and weight. MURAD In that case, if we go back to what we were talking about earlier, if we take away from the image of the car our perceptions that have given us the feelings associated with that perception, such as color, hardness, depth, what's left?Or, let me put it this way. If we cut or temporarily interrupt the nerves going from our sense organs to our brains, what do we have? AHMED Nothing at all. MURAD Here's a quote from Bertrand Russell that relates to what we've been talking about.He says, "As to the sense of touch when we press the table with our fingers, there is an electric disturbance on the electrons and protons of our fingertips, produced, according to modern physics, by the proximity of the electrons and protons in the table. If the same disturbance in our finger-tips arose in any other way, we should have the sensations, in spite of there being no table."4 That is, when you think you're touching your car, it's an impression that comes from the signals sent to the brain by the protons and electrons in your fingertips. It is possible to explain this subject with dreams. Ahmed, is there any material reality in the impression of a car we see in a dream? If you see your own car in a dream, won't you be able to say the same thing? AHMED I accept what you're saying. From this we understand that the reality of that which we call matter is completely unknown to us. MURAD True Ahmed, no one can know matter. Everything called matter is just an impression to us. Our perceptions send us sensations which form impressions such as color, light, taste, smell but beyond these they don't send us information about what we call matter. For this reason we can never know what the world outside ourselves is really like. And science has reached the same conclusion. Those who claim that everything is composed just of material substance, when it comes to proof, have no answer to give. Because throughout our whole lives we see only mental images and, because our entire world is composed of these images, it's not possible for us to describe or explain anything called matter which exists in a place outside our senses. This would be like a person blind from birth trying to describe color. He's never seen color so he can't describe it. Someone who tries to give a definition of matter is just making suppositions. According to Ibrahim's example, when a person looks at the moon, the telescope or the view in front of him, he is actually looking at images on the same plane. However, these images can lead a person to believe that they are in different spaces. If you looked at such objects disposed in space and scratched your lower eyelid as Ibrahim did, you would see that the objects do not remain fixed but change their location. IBRAHIM Murad, something I experienced the other day comes to my mind. Two friends and I were in front of our summerhouse watching the full moon with a small, fixed telescope. I said to my friend, "The moon is a beautiful sight. It's amazing that it shines so brightly being so far away. You can see even the craters and mountains on it even thousands of kilometers away."While speaking, my lower eyelid began to itch. When I started to rub it, I saw the moon moving in various directions. I moved away from the telescope. With the other eye closed, I continued rubbing my eyelid. The summer houses, my friends, the sea from one end to the other and all the houses in the estate moved in various directions as my eyelid moved. If the moon were really so far away, could it too be moved so much by such a simple action as rubbing an eyelid? My friends, the shore, the houses in the estate and the sea appeared to be at various distances away. But everything as a whole was moving as a result of the simple action of rubbing an eye. Now I understand that I was mistaken when I thought that I was looking at something outside myself and objects I understood to be in the distance. In truth, the moon, other objects and even me are on the same plane. All of these things are only a three-dimensional impression formed in my brain. MURAD Very good! Now, let's repeat once more. A person walking on a street is, in fact, walking on a street in his brain and the cars that pass him are in his brain. If we are walking along an empty street and, as Ibrahim did, gently rub our lower eyelids, we will see this clearly. The street and the trees move in various directions. This is the movement of the impressions in our brains. Just as a picture we are watching on television moves when we try to adjust the antenna, so we have the same kind of effect here. We are like a person in our brain sitting in front of a television whatever image is being shown, that is what we watch. Whatever we do, eat, walk on the street, go to school, meet with friends, our whole life is as if we were watching a video cassette.Images, sounds, smell, taste and touch are all sensed in the brain. In other words, we experience our outside world in our inside world. We spend our whole lives in the little house in our brain and we watch the outside world on the television in there. We experience all these things in a one cubic centimeter cell in our brain. We lead our lives without ever leaving that 'cell'. IBRAHIM For example, the fact that a person who is color-blind sees the world in different colors is proof of this, isn't it? MURAD I think you understand this subject very well. Yes, as you said, because a person watches these images throughout his whole life, he perceives the world according to the perceptions that are given to him. If the sense organs are damaged, a distorted perception occurs; for this reason, a person who is color-blind cannot know real color. People with a seeing disorder sees a blurred world. AHMED I understand. MURAD A person cannot get outside these impressions throughout an entire life.Therefore, to claim that the things we see are the way we see them and to think that we have any connection to their reality is illogical and of no use. IBRAHIM Murad. There's something I want to ask. Are there many people who know about this subject either in the past or in the presence? MURAD There are countless people. Not only in the world of ideas, but people working in scientific fields such as physics, atomic theory and astronomy, and well-known scientists whose names we often hear have understood this subject in one way or another and have come to their own interpretations. Materialist thinkers such as Marx and Lenin also studied this subject in their day and understood that it posed a great threat to their materialist views. For this reason, no matter how well they knew the truth, they tried to take measures to suppress it as they realised that accepting such a view would not be to their own advantage. If you like, I will give you the relevant sources. You do some research and tomorrow we'll talk about what you've learned.

and you feel like you don't have anyone or anything, what do you turn to? Sometimes praying isn't enough

Salaam, i don't agree there ever was a a miraj or isra - can you please show me some proofs-apreciate that, Thanks. Salaam to you.

Peace all. I recently got this random email. Just thought it would be interesting sharing it... Muslim expert Al-Qaeda will hit America hard in September and October. "In a recent interview with Ahmed Mohamed, author of "An Islamic Conspiracy" I learned of his vast knowledge of the Mid-East, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, and an in-depth understanding of Islam itself." White "With WMD as top agenda for most Western nations, what can you tell me about them?" Mohamed ?They have actually found most of the ones from Iraq already without knowing it. Most of the WMD were trucked out of Iraq to Syria prior to the invasion. They were then flown to Libya, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The ones in Egypt and Libya have already been accounted for internationally. While what is truly going on in those two countries still needs to be divulged and exposed because there is a bigger picture than what is being shown to the World.? White "Can your statements be collaborated?" Mohamed ?I would be willing to speak out and give evidence to what I am saying but in doing so my life would be placed in jeopardy as well as those of others. Without proper protection afforded to me and the others it would be difficult for me to tell all I know.? White ?What would you cite as the failures of the Coalition?? Mohamed ?Easy, Western intelligence in the Mid-East lacks the correct knowledge base. They believe they have a handle on everything without understanding the Arabs. Arab ideology doesn?t care about what the West thinks.? White ?What do you see in the future?? Mohamed "Muslims will strike the US very hard repeatedly where portable nuclear, chemical and biological weapons will be used in massive suicide attacks carried out by sleeper cells in the US. Whether these attacks will begin before the presidential election depends on various factors. The outcome of Mubarak's upcoming visit to Washington in April and that of the G8 summit in June will determine whether America will be struck before the election. If the West is not dissuaded from implementing the Greater Middle-East Reform Initiative (GME) which would result in removing the existing Arab regimes, then America will be hit before the election, possibly in September and October. The immediate aim of the strike is to intimidate Bush causing a failure at the poll and to set Kerry up to win. Mubarak, on behalf of Arab rulers who resist GME, visited Italy, France and the UK in the beginning of March to try to dissuade them from joining the US in the GME and in the war against terror. Before he went, the authorities in France and the UK were directed to several decoy bombs and threat notes placed in remote spots along their railway tracks. The French and British were not impressed enough and Mubarak went back home empty-handed on March 9. A couple of days later, however, Madrid train bombings took place, Aznar was wasted and the new government is pulling out of Iraq and deserting the war against terror. Europe is now so impressed and intimidated that it is reconsidering its position regarding GME." White ?That is an ominous prediction. Would you care to expand?? Mohamed ?Certainly. What you saw happen on the Madrid trains is a preview to what is to come in the US after the elections are over. Everyone feels the Americans will not be able to handle what is coming when the bomb blast are a weekly event and become a common occurrence with no one's neighborhood being exempt from attacks. When it gets as bad as it can get over there the speculation will be wide ranging from nothing to total capitulation. With a liberal government seated in power what are they going to do? There will never be a clear cut enemy to place a finger on. The terrorist cells are there, in the U.S., waiting for the signal to begin, not only Al-Qaeda and Hamas but also Islamic Jihad and a wide assortment of sub-groups. The rest of the world will be mired down deep in this Jihad; Paris and Berlin are not going to be exempt from this coming terror. They have only been spared from the holocaust because of their lack of participation in the Coalition. Once the Coalition is defeated and out of Iraq it will be their turn. Think about it; France has one of the highest Muslim populations of any nation in Europe.? White ?How does the world stop this impending doom?? Mohamed ?I am not sure it can be stopped but there are notable persons capable of revealing facts that the US is a pawn and does not know it. These persons are willing to give testimony and give evidence of facts concerning WMD and Chemical Weaponry, both storage and manufacturing provided these persons are given proper protection and asylum. The world has to open its eyes and see the real danger of Islamic rule. White "Could we have prevented 9/11 with the knowledge and intelligence now available?" Mohamed ?There is no way to stop all the impending attacks. Just like there was no way to stop 9/11. I don?t care what Bush or his predecessor did or didn?t do, 9/11 was inevitable. If the Arab radicals concluded today that the Coalition was going to remain steadfast and not disintegrate in six months the attacks would start tomorrow. All evidence is that the Coalition is going to fall apart. Once it becomes a clear victory for the Islamic Forces the Jihad will begin that will change human history forever." White "How do you see the upcoming US election?" Mohammed "Even if America rallies behind Bush there are going to be numerous incidences for many committees to discuss in the future. The one on 9/11 that has concluded didn?t do anything but to spur fundamentalist attitude that they have already won. I see American politics as a kaleidoscope; adjust the ring a little and it intermittently takes on a whole new picture. The greatest change will come in November, 2005 after the U.S. has cleared out of Iraq but by then the world will see the mistakes and will be unsure of how to change it." White ?You have any last thoughts to pass on?? Mohamed ?The Mid-East is the focal point of human history as well as its future. The future for the world is indeed bleak and we may be facing Armageddon or Judgment Day should we not stop the Islamic Jihad." White ?Thank you for the interview and the opportunity to forewarn the world." You may purchase the book at http//www.lulu.com/IslamConspiracy Warren A. White is the renowned discoverer of "La Vizcaina," a shipwreck from Columbus' 4th Voyage of Discovery. He is also artist, writer/journalist, and active historical shipwreck researcher. More information may be found at http//www.geocities.com/warrenwhite46/dreams.html or on Google search by typing Warren White Vizcaina. Mr. White's most recent book, "All Knights of the Apocalypse," a novel about terrorism worldwide is available at http//www.lulu.com/WarrenAWhite It sounds so far fetched, I know. Seems to 'breed' hatred towards muslims in general. i dont fancy paying to get the book - dont want to make this guy any money. The preview link on the purchase page is not pleasant. See for yourselves. peace out yasin

Coming from a Christian background, it is my belief that there is an time where Satanic Rule of this earth is over for a thousand years of peace where God rules from the Mount of Olives, or Ezekiel's "Day of the Lord", and Satanic Rule ENDS. Revelations points out that this is only for a thousand years and then Satan gets to rule again for a while before the final Judgement Day. Without using Haddiths, can anyone tell me if there is a Quranic view of this notion? Thank you..

Very interesting read here. Its a long read, but its worth it imo. Not sure what to make of it. It would be nice to see what other people think of it. http//www.geocities.com/spenta_mainyu/Bakka-1.htm

peace, if you guys have any opinions on this, answers from the Quran, or historical articles on this, then share it with me please peace

Say I'm the son of a poor farmer in some african country where there is no television, internet, media, nothing. I live my life in ignorance because there's no way for me to get out of it. In short, I have never even heard of the Quran, and there's no way I can ever hear of the Quran due to my social circumstances. Will I go to "hell"?

Salaam, 3215 Only those believe in our ayts who when they are reminded of them fall down prostrate. 583 And when they listen to what has been sent down to the messenger , you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they recognise.They say we believe. What no prostration and the reward is heaven! 585 And so they are rewarded with the Gardens.

Salam, did anyone verify this verse Before? When and where did the jews claim that Ezra is the son of God? sabo

Peace All D I am curious to know, How many of you are willing to marry your young daughters and off to older men ? Between the ages of 20-90 ect.... shock Thanks wink Peace All, Shirley

The Vanguard of the Mahdi "Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong and these it is that shall be successful." Qur'an, Sura 3104 The time has come for an ideology and for a movement, that is both physically and morally strong enough, to do battle against the forces of evil that are destroying the earth, and all life upon it. One that cannot be bought, nor led astray by temptation. A movement free of the vices that sedate the mind and weaken the body. An ideology that is pure and righteous, without contradictions or inconsistencies. One that judges all things by one standard and emphasizes personal responsibility and accountability above all else. An overall view on life that not only deals with the external, but also the internal - realizing that a physical entity of oppression, such as the capitalist system, (where all life is deemed an expendable resource), is merely an outward manifestation of the warped values held by the people who run the institutions that control our lives, influence our culture and destroy the earth. It must also recognize the intrinsic flaw of single issue causes, where the concept of justice is always a selective one, (with each special interest group fighting for the rights of those that fall under their personal concern, while neglecting, or in some cases, opposing those rights for others) - moving beyond such failed approaches - to a logical and all encompassing system of thought and program of action, which can and will succeed. This is a movement, and a way of life that lives by one ethic - that all innocent life is sacred, and must have the right to live out it's natural state of existence in peace, without interference. Under these principles, all shall be permitted to do as they please as long as their actions do not harm, in any way, the rights of others. Any action that does interfere with such rights shall not be considered a "right" in itself, and therefore shall not be tolerated. Those who hurt or destroy life around them, or create a situation in which that life or the quality of it is threatened shall from then on no longer be considered innocent, and in turn will no long have rights. Members of the Taliyah will abide by these principals in daily life. They shall live at one with the Law of Allah and the Shariah of Islam, and not forsake them for the desire of pleasure - from deviant sexual acts and/or abortion, to drug use of any kind, (and all other cases where ones harms all life around them under the pretext that they are just harming themselves). Along with this purity of everyday life, the true Mu'min must strive to liberate the rest of the world from it's chains - saving life in some cases, and in others, dealing out justice to those guilty of destroying it. Only with this dedication, and conviction - living a life that is in harmony with our stated goals and beliefs, gaining strength from our purity of body and mind, while actively opposing those who are guilty destroying the world with their poisonous thoughts, deeds and pollution, can we be victorious in the Struggle. Instructed by Muhammad (sal) to "search for `Ilm (or "divine knowledge") even if you have to go to china" - we seek edification from ALL sacred scriptures and traditions, and strive to unveil their esoteric Truth and underlying Unity (in an effort to bring about true Gnosis and usher in an era of Messianic Consciousness). Knowing this cannot come to pass while still locked in the chains of Babylon, we strive for justice and liberation by any means necessary. First, through an inward Jihad of self improvement, and spiritual refinement (manifesting in the moral and economic uplifting of our families, community and nation) and secondly, by waging an outward Jihad against the forces of evil that enslave this earth and make universal spiritual awakening impossible. Only though an effort of the faithful will al-Mahdi rise and only then will al-Masih return. Come join us in our struggle to purify the heart and mind; to build an Ummah (community) of pure and righteous souls, and to fight against ALL forms of injustice and exploitation. http//www.taliyah.org

Peace, Read the following verses and see how one subject is discussed, each elaborates on the previous verse and these all along may not have been separate ideas eg a ritual prayer and recitation, a meditation and a series of supplications. 17 78-82. You shall hold the salat at the sun?s setting until the darkness of the night, and the reading (Quran) at dawn; the reading (Quran) at dawn has been witnessed. And from the night you shall meditate upon it (the reading) as you please, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank. And say ?My Lord, admit me an entrance of truth and let me exit an exit of truth, and grant me from Yourself a support of victory.? And say ?The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!? And We send down from the Quran what is a healing and mercy to the believers. And it only increases the wicked in their loss. I have learnt the following on reflection on these verses, it describes something called "salat" which is observed from sunset to dusk and in order to reach a better position one may meditate on the Qur'an after nightfall. Since its talking of extra credits here this links Salat with Qur'an. Hence, they're not the same thing it must be something done with the Qur'an. Reciting it maybe? The subsequent verses however clarifies this further and tell me that I invoke Allah for His help so that I start and finish with the truth and gain His support. Hence, recitation falls short, it must be a process of reading, thinking and reflection. I think this is very different than a ritual experience. We arrive at the truth, which means our minds are active. And indeed the truth comes with reflection on the Qur'an to sincere believers who take in with humility and as a result we heal our ways and receive the mercy of Allah. This seems to describe the process of contemplating on the Qur'an. In Sha Allah this makes sense... regards

What do you think of Irshad Manji and her book? Is she right? Her site is at www.muslim-refusenik.com

peace, Frank I understand Frank that you've been posting a lot of articles proving that the kaaba, the pilgrimage to Mecca, etc. were already prevalent in the Arab world in the early 8th century (earliest date I saw from you was 70, now this might LOOK bad for people who say Islam was corrupted a few hundered years after the prophet died instead of right away but this is assuming that the hadiths are right when they claim that prophet died in 632 AD, what if he was born in the 6th century? considering that pagan Arabs used to do these rituals, what if he came, delivered the relevation and they accepted the Quran but still kept doing their pagan rituals after he died, then a few hundered years later invented quotes and attributed them to the prophet to justify their rituals, these pagan Arabs used to worship a rock, they used to bury their unwanted daughters alive, etc., considering that the whole town of mecca was converted to Islam as in the hadiths it seems nonsense that all these people converted because they actually believed, some could have converted just because they wanted to fit in with the crowd, then they could have attributed quotes they claimed they heard from the prophet to justify their pagan rituals, anything is possible, remember these people used to worship rocks and statues and bury their daughters alive, to claim that ALL were converted overnight and believed in the Quran out of the goodness of their heart is not logical, or maybe the believers decided to win more converts over they would write hadiths for the prophet saying that the pagan rituals were part of Islam to make it easier for the the pagans to convert (as the pope did for the Druids by inserting many pagan rituals in Catholicism, interesting enough, Catholics believe God's house is the Vatican just like the Sunnis believe God's house is the kaaba), there are many more (probably dozens more) explanations that are very believable and to strengthen my explanations take a look at these links go to these sites to see how the "salat prayer", hajj, and Ramadan (a few rituals in it at most) of today are Jewish, pagan Hindu and Zoroastrian rituals mixed together http//www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm the 5 prayers a day to the kaaba (which is also as rip off of the Zoroastrian ritual), the hajj rituals, the watching out for the moon to start the monthly fasting, etc. were all rip offs of Hinduism, it's not they just made up these salat and hajj rituals or corruped them, they clearly ripped them off as can be seen in the above link and below links and attributed the pagan rituals to the prophet, whether they did it right after the prophet's death or 100 or 200 or 300 years later makes no difference the Jews prayed in the exact same physical format of the sunni prayer of today, coincidence? or did God tell the prophets before Ahmad to pray the exact same way, your decision http//www.submission.org/jews.html http//www.aol40.com/que11.htm as you can clearly see they injected pagan rituals into Islam in the name of the prophet, now you know the Quranic line that God sent a messenger to every community right? you can use that as a defense if you wish but it seems highly unlikely due to the injection of many other obvious Jewish, Christian, and Hindu beliefs that contradict the Quran in the hadiths

Any input on this matter..?

Hello People!! I've got debate with some hardcore Christians who were Muslims and I need your help. They say that Muslims think that it is ok when Allah tested Ibrahim to sacrifice his son and they praised Ibrahim for his unselfish act for Allah and want to be like him. But when Christians say that God sacrificed His Son for the sake of men, then they ask why would God do that? How "munafik"! They quote this verse to prove that God tested Abraham but I always thought it was Shaitan who tempted Abraham into believing its a test. But the underlined words say otherwise "So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), we called out to him, `O Abraham! Thou hast already fulfilled thy vision'- thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial - And we ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice ..." (Surah 3799-106). Any help will be appreciated!! PEACE

T'ung tien (published 801) "In 801 Tu Yu presented his encyclopaedic administrative tract, the T'ung tien, to the throne. He had begun it as long ago as 768 while serving at Yang-chou on the staff of his patron Wei Y?an-fu, military governor of Huai-nan. Tu Yu was a political thinker on a grand scale, and this original draft dealt with the whole history of human institutions from earliest times down to the end of the reign of emperor Hs?an-tsung (712-56). Over the years he continued to add material on new and important developments. Large sections of the work were not written by Tu Yu himself, but were taken over integrally from the Cheng tien of Liu Chih (d. ca. 760), a political treatise in historical form, and from the K'ai-y?an li, the official ritual code completed in 732."----Tu Huan's Ching-hsing chi says Another name is Kufa (Ya ch?-lo). The Arab king is called mumen, and his capital is located at this place. Both men and women are handsome and tall, their clothing is bright and clean, and their manners are elegant. When a woman goes out in public, she must cover her face irrespective of her lofty or lowly social position. They perform ritual prayers five times a day. They eat meat, fast and they regard the butchering of an animal as meritorious. They wear silver belts about the waist from which they suspend silver daggers. They prohibit the drinking of wine and forbid music. When people squabble among themselves, they do not come to blows. there is also a ceremonial hall which accommodates tens of thousands of people. Every seven days the king comes out to perform religious services; he mounts a high pulpit and preaches the law to the multitudes. He says "Human life is very difficult, the path of righteousness is not easy, and adultery is wrong. To rob or steal, in the slightest way to deceive people with words, to make oneself secure by endangering others, to cheat the poor or oppress the lowly?there is no sin greater than one of these. All who are killed in battle against the enemies will achieve paradise. Kill the enemies and you will receive happiness beyond measure."

I see many people here getting doubts about muhammad and quran. Here are some quotes by non-muslims on muhammad. "I have studied him- The wonderful man-and in my opinion--He must be called the Savior of humanity. (George Bernard Shaw, The Genuine Islam.) "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Warrior, Conqueror of ideas, the Restorer of rational belief, the preacher of a religion without images, the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one heavenly Empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, "Is there any man greater than he?"" (Alphonse Lamartine, Historie De la Turquie, Paris, 1854.) "Muhammad was the most successful of all religious personalities." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 4th & 11th editions.) "Mohammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." (Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, 1935.) the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels." (Michael H. Hart, The 100.) "The greatest leader of all times was Mohammad." (Jules Masserman, Professor of History, Chicago University.) "The word of Mohammad is a voice direct from nature's own heart--all else is wind in comparison." (Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes and Hero Worship, 1840.) "The more I study, the more I discover that the strength of Islam does not lie in the sword." ( M. K.Gandhi, Young India.) "The creed of Mohammad is free from ambiguity and the Qur'an is a glorious testimony to the unity of God. (Edward Gibbon, Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire.) "The towering personality of Muhammad has left bright and indelible imprints on all mankind." (John William Draper, A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875.) "Absolutely unique in history, Muhammad is a 3 fold founder of a nation, of an empire and of a religion." (Reverend Bosworth Smith, Mohammad and Mohammadanism.) "No man whose external conditions changed so much ever changed himself less to meet them." (R.V.C. Bodley, The Messenger, London, 1946.) "The man who of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race--Muhammad." (J.W. Draper M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London, 1875.) "Among leaders who have made the greatest impact through ages, I would consider Muhammad before Jesus Christ." (James Gavin, Speeches of a U.S. Army General.) "In the person of the prophet of Islam we see the rarest phenomenon on earth walking in flesh and blood i.e. the union of the theorist, the organizer and the leader in one man." (Professor K.S. Rama Krishna Rao, Mohammad, The Prophet of Islam.) "The lies which we have heaped round this man, are disgraceful to ourselves only." (Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes and Hero Worship.) "A man of truth and fidelity, true in what he did, in what he spake and thought---this is the only sort of speech worth speaking." (Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes and Hero Worship, 1840.) "The greatest crime, The greatest "sin" of Mohammad in the eyes of the Christian West is that he did not allow himself to be slaughtered, to be "crucified" by his enemies. He only defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his enemies. Mohammad's success is the Christians' gall of disappointment He did not believe in any vicarious sacrifices for the sins of others." (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) "The legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword--is the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated." (De Lacy O' Leary, Islam at the Cross Roads, London, 1923.) The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom not only for Muslims but for all mankind. (M.K.Gandhi, Preface to The Sayings of Muhammad by Sohrawardi.) "He was the Messenger of the One True God and never to his life's end did he forget for a moment who he was! He was one of those happy few who have attained the supreme joy of making one great truth their very life-spring." (Stanley Lane Poole, Memoirs.) "Those who believe Islam was spread by force are fools who neither know the ways of Islam nor the ways of the world." (Balbir Singh, Navan Hindustan, 1947.) "Mohammad was an enthusiast in the noblest sense." (Stanley Lane Poole, Memoirs.) "He was Caesar and Pope in one, but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar...without a bodyguard, without a palace. If any one man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammad." (Reverend B.Smith, Mohammad & Mohammadanism, London.) "The Renaissance of Europe did not take place in the 15th century. Rather it began when Europe learned from the culture of the Arabs. The cradle of European awakening is not Italy. It is the Muslim Spain." (Robert Briffault, The Making of Humanity.) "Muhammad saved the human civilization from extinction." (J.H. Denison, Emotions as the Basis of Civilization.) "The height of human achievement and glory-Mohammad." (Pringle Kennedy, Arabian Society at the Time of Mohammad.) "Under his influence people became united in one bond which they knew not. The bond of true monotheism." (L.E. Browne, The Eclipse of Christianity in Islam.) "Kingdom of God on Earth! God's messenger serving as the greatest proponent of human brotherhood, His viceroy on earth in the form of Muhammad." ( Philip Hitti, History of the Arabs.) "The message of Mohammad, Islam, is nothing but a blessing for mankind--The usher from darkness to light and from Satan to God." (Rev E. Stephenson, My Reflections.) "The noble founder of a nation, an empire and a religion. The unlettered one bestowed upon the world the Book which is a miracle, the eternal miracle and the true miracle." (Rev. Bosworth Smith) "Mohammad brought an end to idol worship. He preached monotheism and infinite Mercy of God, human brotherhood, care of the orphan, emancipation of slaves, forbidding of wine--No religion achieved as much success as Islam did." (Sir William Muir, Life of Mohammad.) "Mohammad's religion reformed all existing dogmas and brought the Arabs ahead of the super powers of the time." (Dr. Marcus Dods, Mohammad, Buddha and Christ.) "Mohammad was the greatest Executive Officer for implementation of the Divine Will. Like other prophets he knew that time will come when all mankind will become one community." (H.N. Spalding, Civilization in East and West.) "He laid the foundation of a universal government. His law was one for all. Equal justice and love for everyone." (George Rivorie, Visages de L' Islam.) "The Arabian Prophet Mohammad is the founder of a revolution unparalleled in history. He founded a political state that will ultimately embrace the entire planet. The law of that Government would rest on justice and kindness. His teachings revolve around human equality, mutual cooperation and universal brotherhood." (Raymond Lerouge, Life de Mohamet.) "Mohammad introduced the concept of such Glorious and Omnipotent God in Whose eyes all worldly systems were pieces of straw. Islamic equality of mankind is no fiction as it is in Christianity. No human mind has ever thought of such total freedom as established by Mohammad." (Dr. Mawde Royden, The Problem of Palestine.) "Islam is a forceful spiritual energy. Its true meaning will manifest itself when it will be implemented on large scale." (Tor Andre, Muhammad, The Man and His Faith.) "Islam does not set impossible goals. There are no mythological intricacies in this message. No hidden meanings or secrets and absolutely no priesthood." (Phillip Hitti, History of the Arabs.) "In Islam the believer is a worshiper and a soldier ever ready to go to the battlefield but only for that battle which is waged to eradicate the evil." (Spalding, Civilization in East and West.) "The Message of Mohammad is not a set of metaphysical phenomena. It is a complete civilization." (W. A. R. Gibb, Whither Islam.) "The Book revealed to Muhammad is one and unique of its kind. It has left indelible impression on the hearts of humanity. Nothing can overcome its majesty. The Qur'an has given new dimensions to human thinking. Surprising reforms! Stunning success!" (Rev.B. Margoliouth, Biography of Mohammad.) "The Book revealed to Muhammad defines an unalterable guide to individual and collective life of people." (Sir Richard Gregory, Religion in Science and Civilization.) "The Christian World came to wage crusades against Muslims but eventually knelt before them to gain knowledge. They were spellbound to see that Muslims were owners of a culture that was far superior to their own. The Dark Ages of Europe were illuminated by nothing but the beacon of Muslim civilization." (F. J. C Hearushaw, The Science of History.) "Greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results- Mohammad established a system based upon true and immortal ideology. (Alphonse Lamartine) The power that created in Muslims ravenous appetite for knowledge sprung from the Qur'an. (Rev. B.Margoliouth.) In my view, Islam is the only religion in the world that will remain eternally practicable in changing times. (George Bernard Shaw, The Genuine Islam, 1936.) I believe that if today an autocrat of Mohammad's caliber assumes world leadership, he could solve all problems of humanity splendidly. The world will become an abode of peace and happiness. I predict that tomorrow's Europe will embrace Islam. (George Bernard Shaw) Mohammad never assigned himself a status more than a common man and a messenger of God. People had faith in him when he was surrounded by poverty and adversity and trusted him while he was the ruler of a great Empire. A man of spotless character who always had confidence in himself and in God's help. No aspect of his life remained hidden nor was his death a mysterious event. (M.H. Hyndman, The Awakening of Asia.) The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we can not go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Qur'an. (Letter of Goethe to Eckermann, Sir Henry Elliott's collection, 1865). For the unbiased reader, glimpses from the great non-Muslim minds given in this chapter should suffice to say why I am Muslim. Further discussion of the subject, however, will shed more light on the subject and I will also explain why I am a Muslim by choice, not by birth. The solution to all international conflicts lies only in embracing Islam en masse because Islam is the only religion that can transcend nationalism. I see, with great dismay, that nationalism is gaining grounds even among the bearers of the Qur'an. I will hope for the day when all humanity will break this idol and unite all as the children of God. (Arnold J. Toynbey, The World and the West, 1952.) Think and ponder! Which person is it who taught mankind the way to establish the greatest society; the society in which blessings descend upon every individual . . . (J.H. Dennison, Emotions as the Basis of Civilization.) Fellow inhabitants of the planet! Search for the ideal Prophet, who in the 7th century, has shown you the way to total success. (Lewis Mumford, Transformation of Man.) The message of Mohammad is flowing toward its noble destination like a pure, fresh and transparent rivulet. (Johann Goethe) The critics are blind. They cannot see that the only sword Mohammad ever wielded was the sword of mercy, compassion and forgiveness. (Pundit Jai Anand, My Religion, Hinduism.) All religions, save the word of Muhamad, are broken boats. They cannot take humanity to the shore of serenity. (Dr. E.B. Hocking, the Universal Faith.) Islam is the only religion that gives dignity to the poor. (Ramsey Clark, Former U.S. Attorney General.)

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=986 I was searching back through some topics and found this there are links in that topic, including these http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU READ THIS ONE http//www.bl.uk/collections/treasures/treasures.html http//www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=60523099a5877b3e&ex=1072155600 since the last link does no work I'll give you what it says, you can only see this in the thread I linked you to To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad "This book is not to be doubted," the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world. Yet despite the fear, a handful of experts have been quietly investigating the origins of the Koran, offering radically new theories about the text's meaning and the rise of Islam. Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of ancient Semitic languages in Germany, argues that the Koran has been misread and mistranslated for centuries. His work, based on the earliest copies of the Koran, maintains that parts of Islam's holy book are derived from pre-existing Christian Aramaic texts that were misinterpreted by later Islamic scholars who prepared the editions of the Koran commonly read today. ........................ Christoph Luxenberg, however, is a pseudonym, and his scholarly tome ""The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran" had trouble finding a publisher, although it is considered a major new work by several leading scholars in the field. Verlag Das Arabische Buch in Berlin ultimately published the book. The caution is not surprising. Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" received a fatwa because it appeared to mock Muhammad. The Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz was stabbed because one of his books was thought to be irreligious. And when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second- story window by his students at the University of Nablus in the West Bank. Even many broad-minded liberal Muslims become upset when the historical veracity and authenticity of the Koran is questioned. The reverberations have affected non-Muslim scholars in Western countries. "Between fear and political correctness, it's not possible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam," said one scholar at an American university who asked not to be named, referring to the threatened violence as well as the widespread reluctance on United States college campuses to criticize other cultures. While scriptural interpretation may seem like a remote and innocuous activity, close textual study of Jewish and Christian scripture played no small role in loosening the Church's domination on the intellectual and cultural life of Europe, and paving the way for unfettered secular thought. "The Muslims have the benefit of hindsight of the European experience, and they know very well that once you start questioning the holy scriptures, you don't know where it will stop," the scholar explained. The touchiness about questioning the Koran predates the latest rise of Islamic militancy. As long ago as 1977, John Wansbrough of the School of Oriental and African Studies in London wrote that subjecting the Koran to "analysis by the instruments and techniques of biblical criticism is virtually unknown." Mr. Wansbrough insisted that the text of the Koran appeared to be a composite of different voices or texts compiled over dozens if not hundreds of years. After all, scholars agree that there is no evidence of the Koran until 691 ? 59 years after Muhammad's death ? when the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem was built, carrying several Koranic inscriptions. These inscriptions differ to some degree from the version of the Koran that has been handed down through the centuries, suggesting, scholars say, that the Koran may have still been evolving in the last decade of the seventh century. Moreover, much of what we know as Islam ? the lives and sayings of the Prophet ? is based on texts from between 130 and 300 years after Muhammad's death. In 1977 two other scholars from the School for Oriental and African Studies at London University ? Patricia Crone (a professor of history at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton) and Michael Cook (a professor of Near Eastern history at Princeton University) ? suggested a radically new approach in their book "Hagarism The Making of the Islamic World." Since there are no Arabic chronicles from the first century of Islam, the two looked at several non-Muslim, seventh-century accounts that suggested Muhammad was perceived not as the founder of a new religion but as a preacher in the Old Testament tradition, hailing the coming of a Messiah. Many of the early documents refer to the followers of Muhammad as "hagarenes," and the "tribe of Ishmael," in other words as descendants of Hagar, the servant girl that the Jewish patriarch Abraham used to father his son Ishmael. In its earliest form, Ms. Crone and Mr. Cook argued, the followers of Muhammad may have seen themselves as retaking their place in the Holy Land alongside their Jewish cousins. (And many Jews appear to have welcomed the Arabs as liberators when they entered Jerusalem in 638.) The idea that Jewish messianism animated the early followers of the Prophet is not widely accepted in the field, but "Hagarism" is credited with opening up the field. "Crone and Cook came up with some very interesting revisionist ideas," says Fred M. Donner of the University of Chicago and author of the recent book "Narratives of Islamic Origins The Beginnings of Islamic Historical Writing." "I think in trying to reconstruct what happened, they went off the deep end, but they were asking the right questions." The revisionist school of early Islam has quietly picked up momentum in the last few years as historians began to apply rational standards of proof to this material. Mr. Cook and Ms. Crone have revised some of their early hypotheses while sticking to others. "We were certainly wrong about quite a lot of things," Ms. Crone said. "But I stick to the basic point we made that Islamic history did not arise as the classic tradition says it does." Ms. Crone insists that the Koran and the Islamic tradition present a fundamental paradox. The Koran is a text soaked in monotheistic thinking, filled with stories and references to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Jesus, and yet the official history insists that Muhammad, an illiterate camel merchant, received the revelation in Mecca, a remote, sparsely populated part of Arabia, far from the centers of monotheistic thought, in an environment of idol-worshiping Arab Bedouins. Unless one accepts the idea of the angel Gabriel, Ms. Crone says, historians must somehow explain how all these monotheistic stories and ideas found their way into the Koran. "There are only two possibilities," Ms. Crone said. "Either there had to be substantial numbers of Jews and Christians in Mecca or the Koran had to have been composed somewhere else." Indeed, many scholars who are not revisionists agree that Islam must be placed back into the wider historical context of the religions of the Middle East rather than seeing it as the spontaneous product of the pristine Arabian desert. "I think there is increasing acceptance, even on the part of many Muslims, that Islam emerged out of the wider monotheistic soup of the Middle East," says Roy Mottahedeh, a professor of Islamic history at Harvard University. Scholars like Mr. Luxenberg and Gerd- R. Puin, who teaches at Saarland University in Germany, have returned to the earliest known copies of the Koran in order to grasp what it says about the document's origins and composition. Mr. Luxenberg explains these copies are written without vowels and diacritical dots that modern Arabic uses to make it clear what letter is intended. In the eighth and ninth centuries, more than a century after the death of Muhammad, Islamic commentators added diacritical marks to clear up the ambiguities of the text, giving precise meanings to passages based on what they considered to be their proper context. Mr. Luxenberg's radical theory is that many of the text's difficulties can be clarified when it is seen as closely related to Aramaic, the language group of most Middle Eastern Jews and Christians at the time. ......................... In many cases, the differences can be quite significant. Mr. Puin points out that in the early archaic copies of the Koran, it is impossible to distinguish between the words "to fight" and "to kill." In many cases, he said, Islamic exegetes added diacritical marks that yielded the harsher meaning, perhaps reflecting a period in which the Islamic Empire was often at war. A return to the earliest Koran, Mr. Puin and others suggest, might lead to a more tolerant brand of Islam, as well as one that is more conscious of its close ties to both Judaism and Christianity. "It is serious and exciting work," Ms. Crone said of Mr. Luxenberg's work. Jane McAuliffe, a professor of Islamic studies at Georgetown University, has asked Mr. Luxenberg to contribute an essay to the Encyclopedia of the Koran, which she is editing. Mr. Puin would love to see a "critical edition" of the Koran produced, one based on recent philological work, but, he says, "the word critical is misunderstood in the Islamic world ? it is seen as criticizing or attacking the text." Some Muslim authors have begun to publish skeptical, revisionist work on the Koran as well. Several new volumes of revisionist scholarship, "The Origins of the Koran," and "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad," have been edited by a former Muslim who writes under the pen name Ibn Warraq. Mr. Warraq, who heads a group called the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society, makes no bones about having a political agenda. "Biblical scholarship has made people less dogmatic, more open," he said, "and I hope that happens to Muslim society as well." But many Muslims find the tone and claims of revisionism offensive. "I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Koran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later," says Ebrahim Moosa, a professor of religious studies at Duke University, as well as a Muslim cleric whose liberal theological leanings earned him the animosity of fundamentalists in South Africa, which he left after his house was firebombed. Andrew Rippin, an Islamicist at the University of Victoria in British Columbia, Canada, says that freedom of speech in the Islamic world is more likely to evolve from within the Islamic interpretative tradition than from outside attacks on it. Approaches to the Koran that are now branded as heretical ? interpreting the text metaphorically rather than literally ? were widely practiced in mainstream Islam a thousand years ago. ...................