General Issues / Questions

December 10, 2002 President Bush Koran is God's word THE PRESIDENT Thank you very much, sir. It's good to be with you again. And it is my honor to visit the Islamic Center of Washington once again. For half a century, this beautiful mosque has served as a place of worship for Muslims and has helped to advance understanding between people of different faiths. Millions of our fellow Americans practice the Muslim faith. They lead lives of honesty and justice and compassion. I am pleased to join you today in the celebration of Eid, the culmination of the Holy Month of Ramadan. I appreciate so very much Dr. Khouj, and I want to thank the other distinguished imam from the Washington, D.C. area. Thank you all for being here. And I enjoyed our visit. I also appreciate the Muslim schoolchildren who are here, telling me stories and reading poems and showing the art work. Please tell them thanks again for their hospitality. Islam traces its origins back to God's call on Abraham. And Ramadan commemorates the revelation of God's word in the Holy Koran to the prophet Mohammad -- a word that is read and recited with special attention and reverence by Muslims during this season. Over the past month, Muslims have fasted, taking no food or water during daylight hours, in order to refocus their minds on faith and redirect their hearts to charity. Muslims worldwide have stretched out a hand of mercy to those in need. Charity tables at which the poor can break their fast line the streets of cities and towns. And gifts of food and clothing and money are distributed to ensure that all share in God's abundance. Muslims often invite members of other families to their evening iftar meals, demonstrating a spirit of tolerance. President's Greeting for Ramadan - November 5, 2002 I send greetings to Muslims in the United States and around the world as you observe the holy month of Ramadan. Islam is a peace-loving faith that is practiced by more than one billion people, including millions of American Muslims. These proud citizens contribute to the diversity that makes our country strong, and the United States is grateful for the friendship and support of many Muslim Nations that are vital partners in the global coalition to fight against terrorism. The Qur'an teaches that Ramadan is a time for fasting, prayer, worship, and contemplation. Muslims observe this month by renewing their dedication to caring for those in need, doing good deeds, and strengthening family and community ties. These actions reflect many of the values that Muslims share with people of other faiths across our Nation and around the world, including courage, compassion, and service. America remains committed to freedom, justice, and opportunity for all people. During this season of reverence and examination, we continue to work together for a future of peace, tolerance, and understanding. Laura joins me in sending our best wishes for a blessed time. May you be well during Ramadan and throughout the coming year. GEORGE W. BUSH October 11, 2002 Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion." September 10, 2002 Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It's a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It's a faith based upon love, not hate." November 19, 2001 President Hosts Iftaar Dinner Remarks by the President At Iftaar Dinner in The State Dining Room - THE PRESIDENT Good evening, and welcome to the White House. I'm so honored to welcome such distinguished guests and ambassadors during the holy month of Ramadan. America is made better by millions of Muslim citizens. America has close and important relations with many Islamic nations. So it is fitting for America to honor your friendship and the traditions of a great faith by hosting this Iftaar at the White House. I want to thank our Secretary of State for being here, as well as members of my administration. I want to thank the ambassadors for taking time in this holy month to come to join us in this feast. Ramadan is a time of fasting and prayer for the Muslim faithful. So tonight we are reminded of God's greatness and His commandments to live in peace and to help neighbors in need. According to Muslim teachings, God first revealed His word in the holy Qur'an to the prophet, Muhammad, during the month of Ramadan. That word has guided billions of believers across the centuries, and those believers built a culture of learning and literature and science. All the world continues to benefit from this faith and its achievements. Ramadan and the upcoming holiday season are a good time for people of different faiths to learn more about each other. And the more we learn, the more we find that many commitments are broadly shared. We share a commitment to family, to protect and love our children. We share a belief in God's justice, and man's moral responsibility. And we share the same hope for a future of peace. We have much in common and much to learn from one another. This evening, we gather in a spirit of peace and cooperation. I appreciate your support of our objectives in the campaign against terrorism. Tonight that campaign continues in Afghanistan, so that the people of Afghanistan will soon know peace. The terrorists have no home in any faith. Evil has no holy days. This evening we also gather in the spirit of generosity and charity. As this feast breaks the Ramadan fast, America is also sharing our table with the people of Afghanistan. We are proud to play a leading role in humanitarian relief efforts, with air drops and truck convoys of food and medicine. America's children are donating their dollars to the Afghan children. And my administration is committed to help reconstruct that country, and to support a stable government that represents all of the people of Afghanistan. We are working for more opportunity and a better life for the people of Afghanistan, and all the people of the Islamic world. America respects people of all faiths, and America seeks peace with people of all faiths. I thank you for your friendship, and I wish you a blessed Ramadan. November 15, 2001 "The Islam that we know is a faith devoted to the worship of one God, as revealed through The Holy Qur'an. It teaches the value and the importance of charity, mercy, and peace." September 28, 2001 that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion. September 17, 2001 "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war." Check also, http//www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html

peace, And We had given Moses nine clear signs. So ask the Children of Israel, when he came to them, then Pharaoh said ?I think that you Moses are bewitched!? He said ?You know that no one has sent these down except for the Lord of the heavens and the earth as visible proofs. And I think that you Pharaoh are doomed!? So he wanted to entice them out of the land. But We drowned him and all those with him. And We said after him to the Children of Israel ?Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd.? (17101-104) it clearly seems reading this verse that God does not condemn a Jewish homeland in Isreal but is actually in favor of it, what our your thoughts? peace

Salaams Dr. Shabbir Akhtar Author of 'A Faith for all Seasons' Last known to be residing in the UK. Reformer, but the subject of much criticism within the British Muslim press when he first published his ideas. Anybody here heard of him? read him? met him? Wasalaam Yakoub

Is it mandatory to read "Al-Fatiha" when praying? Or is that only prescribed in the Hadiths...

Salaam Aleikum. Damon wrote something very rude about me and slandered me. He said , you two being hadith, sahaba and sheik worshippers, and me worshipping GOD Alone and following Quran alone, it should ALWAYS, ALWAYS be backed up and validated by the Quran? FIRST HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF WORSHIPPING OTHER THAN ALLAH. I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE THAT I DO. WE ARE COMMANDED IN THE QU'RAN AND HADITH TO WORSHIP ALLAH ONLY. I DO NOT WORSHIP ANY SHEIKHS, HADITH OR SAHABA. You claim me for being dishonest for following the Qu'ran and the Prophet's Sunnah/Hadith. I CHALLENGE YOU DAMON TO PROVE THAT I WORSHIP OTHER THAN ALLAH, IF YOU CANNOT PROVE THIS THEN I DEMAND AN APOLOGY!!!!

Salaam Ok since many people dont belive in hadith on this website please tell your thought ON DAJJAL thanks w salaam

Salam every 1 ok is jesus alive in heavan right now? Is he coming back? if not who is coming back

I expect everyone of whatever conviction could share their thoughts here. It is a well-known fact that the early Islam nation, starting from the Messenger's death, expands outside Makkah and Madinah, conquering neighbouring regions Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Persia. What I'd like to know is whether this conquest can be justified by the Qur'an. Why do I ask this? Because a Christian recently asked me, 'Why, if violence id only defensive in Islam, does the followers of Muhammad created a conquering empire? Why did they expand their territory and conquer their neighbours?' Anyone interested in discussing this? I am also open for any non-Quranic sources that is relevant to this issue.

Asalamu alaikum,Man,I was just sitting here,about to reply to Sarah about something in another thread,and then it was JUST announced on My local news that this dude Just stole a city van and ran down like 4 different people before getting caught just a little while ago ...,Let us pray that this guy does not say that He did it for Islam..The media would have a field day with this.......Anyways...Salaams

peace to all participating in the recent debates of the hadiths, due to the large amount of recent posts regarding hadiths causing the ignoral of posts not regarding it, is that if we are going to make any more posts rejecting or supporting hadiths that we take it in the hadith discussion forum (hence the name wink) which will give people that make threads for questions, news, etc. more focused on, plus it will also increase the one on oneness of the debates which is more fair in my opinion, so my suggestion is that we should move all the current debates (that are still going) regarding hadiths to that forum, and all future debates about hadiths should go there too plus a message to all progressive Muslims here, we need to stop dissing Sunnis wink I'm serious though x peace

022.067-PICKTHAL Unto each nation have We given sacred rites which they are to perform; so let them not dispute with thee of the matter, but summon thou unto thy Lord. Lo! thou indeed followest right guidance So its ok to have your own form of prayers and customs? As long as you dont pray to other gods? Thats what I came up with after reading this sura... any thoughts?

Salaams When I visit Salafi forums and chat rooms, not that I am a complete Net head of course, I usually mention my website. And I always get the same feedback - drawing attention to my links to al-fatihah, Safra and more recently my own page which pretty much echoes what these two gay Muslim sites have to say. Bring up the gay issue on chat, and I get all the silly comments, from 'you're gay' to 'there are no gay Muslims'. It's nothing to do with what my sexuality is - it is to do with how people are treated. A little while back, the Head of British University Imams signed a letter with other religious leaders, denouncing homophobia. Do you think he has much support within the British ummah? What are you views on this subject? Wasalaam Yakoub

To approach women during their menses, for sexual purposes, is forbidden in the Qur'an (2222) They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say It is a vulnerable condition, so let women alone at such times and go not unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. It is impossible to imagine that the Prophet was unaware of this injunction in the Qur'an and yet Bukhari, it appears, has been able to unearth the most intimate private affairs of the Prophet. He claims the authority of Hazrat Aisha in order to make it look authentic Bukhari (ref 1.29; narrated Aisha The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were junub . During the menses, he used to order me to put on an izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in itikaf (see note below) he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in periods (menses). Bukhari (Ref 1.299) Narrated Abdur Rahman bin Al-Aswad Aisha said "Whenever Allah's Messenger wanted to fondle anyone during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an izar and start fondling her." Aisha added "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet." Contrast this with specific Qur'anic injunctions. Now all people should analyse this and come to these three points The Prophet was disobeying God and had a high sex drive as narrated by Aisha. This hadith is not sahih which then puts a big question mark on what pro-hadithists follow; mere conjecture. So hadiths are not worth the paper their printed on. The Prophet could do what he wanted as he exempted from such acts. ? PICK YOUR CHOICE PEOPLE, OR IF YOU WANT TO ADD ANOTHER POINT TO WHAT I'VE PUT ON THEN FEEL FREE TO. PEACE

http//www.submission.org/A-AK.html In the name of God , Most Gracious, Most Merciful Islam is older than the Quran. Islam (submission to God alone) has always been the religion of all God's prophets. Abraham however was given all the rituals (practices of Islam), thousands of years before even Muhammed was born. See our article, "Who founded Islam". During a discussion about the use of the term Allahu Akbar, some people came up with the idea that Allahu Al-kabeer may be more appropriate because the word Kabeer can be found in the Quran while the word Akbar is not. This issue has been discussed also in another article that reminded us that Salat began even before the Quran. The following is the main point in the discussion that took place. God reminds us in the Quran that; 53 "...Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Islam as the religion for you..." Islam, our religion, is perfected by GOD Almighty at the time of Muhammad. We had made changes in our Salat that we inherited from our parents because we are trying to restore it to its initial form known to Muhammad. Historically, we can trace those alterations to Salat. Here you are 2 examples Amen Saying "Amen" after the opening Sura is reported in a Hadith. It was said that a companion of the prophet said "Amen" after Muhammad had recited the Penning Sura in the Salat. After finishing Salat, Muhammad, allegedly said that he saw angels blessing the one who said "Amen" and were hurrying up to take it to GOD. This Hadith and similar hadiths were introduced when the Muslims increased in numbers, had converts from the Christians and Jews and thus got into closer contact with Christians and Jews. Christians for instance do say "Amen" after reciting the Lord's prayer which is very similar to the Sura 1 of the Quran. Traditionally, in the the muslim world, even the Muslim scholars agree that reciting Fatiha is Mandatory, but reciting any other sura from the Quran in Salat as only a 'sunna'. Some of the Muslims who memorize the Quran used this idea to repeatedly recite the Quran to improve their memory of it. When we accepted any changes in the Salat, we did it only after we were certain that we are following the Quran and purifying the salat absolutely to God alone. We had no intention to create a new religion. Islam (Submission to God alone) is the ONE and ONLY religion acceptable to God. It has to be kept absolutely to God ALONE. We are only trying to purify it from all the man made additions that accumulated over 1400 years. Changing "Allahu Akbar" to "Allahu Al-Kabeer" Those who want to change Allahu Akbar to Allahu Al Kabeer has two main reasons GOD never qualifies Himself in Quran as Akbar, which is a fact Akbar is not a GOD's attribute you can find in Quran, and so do the number of prostrations (Sujud) and bowing down (Ruku) for every Salat. We do not have any information in Quran about the Friday's ceremony (ie.khutba) and how to do it either. The word "Akbar" however is quranic. God used the word "Akbar "to describe some of His qualities, See for example, 972 and 4010 Based on the verse 1746, we should use Quran Only while preaching GOD. Do not forget that Islamic practices are older than Quran Why we do not agree with changing Allahu Akbar to Allahu Al-Kabeer. (1). Historically, there is not a single recorded instance where Muhammad or muslims used to say "Allahu Al-Kabeer". Had Muhammad used "Allahu Al-Kabeer" and in the case he was wrong, GOD would have corrected him. Remember that GOD perfected His religion with its rituals at the time of Muhammad. Therefore, when we change "Allahu Akbar" to "Allahu Al-Kabeer" we are in fact creating a new thing and not restoring Salat to its initial form. (2). 1746 "...And when you preach your Lord using Quran alone..." Reading 1746 in RK's translation may give you the impression that since GOD qualifies Himself "Al-Kabeer"=the Great ,in Quran and not "Al-Akbar'=the Greatest, means we should use "Allahu Al-Kabeer"=GOD is the Great, instead of "Allahu Akbar"=GOD is the Greatest. But we have to look at the Quran in total and not stop at one verse, to get a clear understanding (3). 17111 "...extol His greatness..." (In Arabic "...wa kabbberhu takbeeran..." is similar in English to "Talk the talk and walk the walk"). This command can be achieved by many ways and not only by saying "Allahu Akbar" or "Allahu Al-Kabeer". We should not restrict ourselves to a specific formula or to say anything at all. This command could be applied to our Salat as well as to our daily life. We say "Allahu Akbar" in our Salat not because of this command, but because we are following Abraham who received the Islam's rituals from GOD who said so. (4) 1313 "The thunder praises His glory, and so do the angels, out of reverence for Him.". 1744 "Glorifying Him are the seven universes, the earth, and everyone in them. There is nothing that does not glorify Him, but you do not comprehend their glorification, He is Clement, Forgiver". 2441 "Do you not realize that everyone in the heavens and the earth glorifies GOD, even the birds as they fly in a column? Each knows its prayer and its glorification. GOD is fully aware of everything they do". Praising GOD, extolling His greatness should not be restricted to reciting a formula. It could be done by many other ways including thinking of Him silently. And remember 2237 "Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD, What reaches Him is your righteousness.". (5) Al-Kabeer means the Great and not the Greatest (superlative of great). In the contrary, in Arabic, "Allahu Akbar" means GOD is greater than anything someone can imagine or GOD is the Greatest of all things or simply means GOD is The Greatest. Some people objected to using Akbar as they thought it may imply comparing God with someone else. Quran clarifies this issue for us by insisting on using similar terms to Akbar. "Allahu Akram"=GOD is the Most Generous or "Allahu Aalam"=GOD is the Best Knower. "Ahsan Al Khaleeqeen"= the Best creator. Therefore Akbar is not a word you cannot use for God. See what God used for Himself already and how He described some of His qualities as "Akbar" (6). 17110 "...Call upon GOD or call upon the Most Gracious; whichever name/attribute you use, to Him belongs the most beautiful names/attributes.". As you can see this verse does not mean "...whichever name/attribute MENTIONED IN QURAN you use...". On the contrary, this verse condemns those who restrict His names/attributes to whatever they are aware of. (7). We may criticize those who choose "Allahu Al-Kabeer" (ie. GOD is the Great), only for the reason that they misunderstood the Quranic verses mentioned above, refused to follow the clear teaching of a messenger who corrected the Salat for them, and for their inability to see that to God belongs all the beautiful names including Akbar, Ahsan, Akram,,,,etc. Allahu Akbar is not a distortion of GOD's attributes . This is true for the simple reason that we can not prove that "Akbar" is not among GOD's most beautiful names/attributes. We have no proof that it was not what Muhammed used, and it was confirmed by messenger of the covenant, (the messenger who corrected every other aspect of our salat, zakat, fasting and Hajj) as the correct one to use. And for the weakest at heart, it is even much safer to continue to use it. (. 1698 "When you read the Quran, you shall seek refuge in GOD from the Satan the rejected.". So, before we read Quran we say "I seek refuge in GOD from the Satan the rejected. 5696 "You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great (Al-Azeem).". So, we say "Glory to my Lord the Great" while bowing down (ruku) in Salat and in other different places and times. 871 "Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High (Al-Alaa).". We say "Glory to my Lord, the Most High" in our Salat while prostrating (sujud), and in other places and times. 17111 "...You shall magnify Him constantly." "...wa kabberhu takbeeran" (Arabic text). GOD here does not say "...wa kabber ALLAh Al-Kabeer" (And extol GOD the Great) in order for us to say "Allahu Al-Kabeer". GOD does not say either "...wa kabber ALLAH Al-Akbar" (And extol GOD the Greatest) in order for us to say "Allahu Akbar". This verse obviously does not follow the same pattern as 5696 and 871 which could refer to what to say in ruku and sujud. (9). God proved to us in the Quran that when He wants to change a practice in His great religion, He does it clearly and spells it out. He did that for fasting in Ramada. See 2187 allowing sexual intercourse during the nights in Ramadan. Today, changing "Allahu Akbar" to "Allahu al-kabeer" does not follow the same pattern. Had Muhammed erred he would have been corrected. Had the messenger of the covenant erred he would have been corrected. clearly loudly and with a strong proof. (10). 678 "When he (Abraham) saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest (Akbar).". Abraham used the word Akbar to describe what he believed to be the Lord, because the Lord must be the greatest. Abraham was the one who received the Salat rituals, and the one who qualified what he thought the Lord as Akbar. Coincidence? (11) We are not worshiping Quran. We are worshipping GOD Alone using Quran alone. You can make it to heaven if you worship GOD Alone even though you do not use Quran. (12) We need to remind ourselves that we inherited the Salat rituals and those numbers from Abraham generation after generation. We keep doing the same numbers in our daily Salat mainly because of so. (13) GOD asks us to remember Him during Hajj. Of course going to Mecca and the Hajj rituals are forms of praising, glorifying, and commemorating Him. Muslims use a special and beautiful formula while walking around the Ka'bah which is "Labbayka Alaahumma Labbayka" (Here I am my God, I have responded to You, here I am). "Labbayka Laa Shareeka Laka Labbayk" (Here I am I have responded to You, and I proclaimed that there is no other god besides You; here I am I have responded to You)... This formula is not in Quran. Should we then change it to something else? We don't think so. (14) We are doing 5 Salats daily because this is what it comes to us from Abraham, generation after generation. Now we can see four mentioned salat in the Quran, (three of the four by name) and also the middle prayer. There is no middle for a four prayer, and five prayers as we inherited them is the next logical acceptable number. (15) The khutba (Friday's ceremony) and how to do it are not in Quran. Should we disregard it or just do it the way we are doing now because this is what we inherited from Abraham? confirmed by Muhammed, then confirmed again by the messenger of the covenant. (16). We should draw a line somewhere. Or we take the whole Salat rituals (including the number of ruku and sujud and what to say) from Quran, or just follow what we received from Abraham, generation after generation, unless if there is something against the spirit of Quran such as praising Muhammad and his family. (17) We had two proven incidents in the life of Islam (Submission) where the rituals of Islam , including Salat, Zakat, Hajj and Fasting were corrected or approved as it was. One by the prophet Muhammed continuation of what Abraham was practicing, and the other more recently by the messenger of the covenant. God never told us to follow our personal opinion or the opinion of the scholars but INSIST on us following His messengers. God's messengers DO NOT contradict each other but confirm what was previously revealed by God. God never sent a messenger to correct the mistakes of another messenger. The messenger of the covenant never corrected the prophet Muhammed but he corrected the corruption created by people's personal opinion after Muhammed's death. All these preceding reasons, are examples of the of many reasons to continue using "Allahu Akbar" in our salt.. http//www.submission.org/God-names.html God?s ?Beautiful Names? and attributes By A. Salmawy Much has been written lately by some believers about the ?Asmaa Al-Hosna? or God?s beautiful names. Primarily, this group of believers are saying that God?s beautiful names are only those in the Quran, and consequently in our Salat we should use the name Allah Al-Kabeer and not the traditional Allah Akbar. The claim is that Kabeer is one of the names of God in the Quran while Akbar is not. They also say that only the names that are in the Quran can be used to call on God. This has been repeated by various articles mainly in the Journal of Submission. The purpose of this article is to demonstrate that these claims are a result of a lack of understanding of the Quran, and also to demonstrate that these believers have in fact abused and corrupted the meaning of a number of Quranic verses. 1- In his recent article in the JOS, the author starts his article by saying ?Of course God is not limited to any fixed number of names and attributes? ?? but soon enough he contradicts himself by saying ???and therefore the only valid conclusion must be that God has stated ALL these names in the Quran? !!!! How can he claim that God is not limited to a fixed number of names and then conclude that all these names are in the Quran??? To arrive at this paradoxical conclusion he abuses the meaning of a clear Quranic truth, that being that the Quran is complete and fully detailed. He states that since the Quran is complete and fully detailed then, and in his own words, he says ?these names must be in the Quran, it can?t be otherwise?. The corruption in the meaning of the completeness and detail of the Quran stems from the fact that the Quran is complete and fully detailed regarding all the Law of God that we must follow for our salvation. The Quran is not fully detailed when it comes to demonstrating God?s greatness or attributes. This is simply because God?s attributes and greatness is infinite, it cannot be contained in a book. It is ironic that the author refers to verses such as 6103, 4211 and 1124 that demonstrate that it is beyond the human being to comprehend the greatness of God, then he insists that we should limit our understanding of God?s attributes to the names that are mentioned in the Quran !!!! There is no doubt that God?s attributes are a thousand million more than those included in the Quran, and which are mentioned in the way of a sample. Some of these untold attributes we may be able to understand and a million others beyond our comprehension. 2- Another Quranic truth that has been abused by these writers is 1124. This glorious verse asserts that nothing can be compared to God. From this truth they have arrived at a corrupted deduction stating that only superlative adjectives may be associated with God?s name and not any comparative adjectives. As a result they claim that the superlative ?Al-Kabeer? (The Great) is the correct name to be used in our Salat and not the comparative ?Akbar? (Greater). Sadly, and by making such a claim they have shown their total ignorance with the Quran. First, they have shown their ignorance to the fact that in the Quran God compares Himself to other things. On the one hand, God uses the superlative name ?Qareeb? (near) for Himself. This is found in 2186, 1161, and 3450. In these verses there is no comparison between God and others. However, if we read 5016 "We created the human, and We know what he whispers to himself. We are nearer to him than his jugular vein." In this verse, God uses the comparative (nearer) to describe His position in comparison with the nearness of the jugular vein. The same word ?Aqrab? (nearer), which is the comparative form of ?Qareeb? (near) is also used in 5685. Other verses where God speaks of Himself in the comparative mode are ?Best Provider? 5114, 2285, 2372, 3439, and 6211 ?Best Supporter? 3150 ?Best Schemer? 354 ?Best Judge? 787,10109, 1280, 657 ?Most Accurate Reckoner? 662 ?Best Forgiver? 7155 All these comparisons in actual fact demonstrate the true meaning of 1124 and which they have failed to understand. The meaning of the words ?nothing can be compared to God? (1124), does not mean that if one compares anything to God one is inevitably thrown into hell???..after all God draws many comparisons as was shown, it simply means that in any comparison, God will always be the triumphant. You can make a million comparisons, day and night, but in every one the name of God will emerge as the clear victor. That is the meaning of 1124. 3- The next important matter that has been put forward to them, and which they have never been able to provide a convincing answer to, is the following The Student of the Quran will be able to witness the difference between two types of Quranic commandments Command #1 "Glorify the name of your LORD, THE MOST HIGH" 871 "You shall glorify the name of your Lord, THE GREAT" 5674 Command #2 "Extol (magnify) your Lord" 743, 17111 and others. In command 1, God commands us to use SPECIFIC NAMES (The Most High and the Great). However, in command 2, NO SPECIFIC name is indicated. In command 1 God is telling us to use specific names, however in command 2 God is saying MAGNIFY the Lord, to magnify anything you make it larger. Hence, if you magnify KABEER (Great) you make it AKBAR (Greater). If God wants us to use the word Al-KABEER, He would have specifically told us so, in the same way He told us to use the names THE MOST HIGH as in 871, or THE GREAT as in 5674. The command in 17111 is to magnify or make larger???.AKBAR is greater than KABEER. For that issue they have no answer. 4- Again, they still have not provided a clear explanation to the fact that the command to magnify the Lord is pre-Quranic??..it appears in the Old Testament and the oldest books of Jewish prayers. If calling upon God can ONLY be done by using the names mentioned in the Quran only, then we must conclude that before the revelation of the Quran (1400 years ago) it was not possible for believers to call upon God by any names !! It is expected that someone may claim that the specific command to magnify or extol God is a Quranic command and must be executed using Quranic words and names from the Quran. That is wrong too! The command to magnify God has appeared in the older scripture dating back to the Torah and probably before. One of the Prayer books that lists prayers from as far back as the days of Jacob or before show that the reader in the morning service takes the scroll of the Law and says "Magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together" (The Authorised Daily book of Prayer, 25th edition, Eyreand Spottiswoode ltd., 1957, page 66) The command of God to the people of Israel to magnify His name is obviously pre-Quranic. The Jews had no Quran to extract God?s names from, however they were still obeying God and magnifying His name without having to wait for the names that would appear in the Quran centuries later.! 5- Verse 7180 commands us to call God by the beautiful names. It DOES NOT say that these beautiful names are ONLY in the Quran. To insist on that is but a corruption of the meaning of the verse, as this would add the word ONLY to 7180. To add or subtract one word to the meaning of any Quranic verse is a corruption. A well known example of a similar corruption of the meaning of the Quran by adding one word, is what we witnessed in the corruption of the meaning of 3945. "When God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned besides Him, they become satisfied." The corrupt interpreters added the word (gods) after the word "others" to make it instead if using the word others by itself as per the original Quran. The attempt to limit the Beautiful names of God in 7180 to ONLY to those in the Quran is a similar corruption to the one given above, and which changed the meaning drastically by adding the word ONLY to the text. To impose a limitation to the meaning of a Quranic verse, and which does not exist in God?s words, is a grave corruption and is a man-made innovation . Surely if God wants to indicate that ONLY the beautiful names of the Quran are the ones to be used, He would have specifically said so. To God belongs all the beautiful names in all languages, all scriptures, and at all time. God be praised

One of my good sikh friends asked me a question. It was a very good question he asked me about last year before I was a quran alone follower, i was at that time following www.submission.org. His question was "If you believe in One God why do you bow down to a black stone, the kaabah?" I was stuck "ermm, ermm" I asked a "Muslim" this question and he told me we don't bow down to it we pray TOWARDS it and not at IT ? Being naive I believed that and told my sikh friend who humbly respected my belief. It now makes more sense since why would God say serve/obey me and yet make us bow down to a stone miles away to remember/serve Him ? I think sunnis/shias need to with a pure and open heart analyse their beliefs instead of being hypocrites and thinking their on the right paths. I mean how can they justify bowing down to a cube(Kaabah) and then say hindus are astray by bowing down to their idols ? I'm glad God is guiding me and im sure ive still got lots to learn and im looking forward to it. I just hope God does make it easy for me to understand the Quran and protect me from shaitaan whatever he is. I think with logic and reasoning you can discover the One True God and im pleased God has given that wisdom to distinguish between false and truth. PEACE

A suggestion clearly anything suggested musn't be missrepresented this is for disscussion only! Allah says in variouse aytes to our prophet say"................." obviously Allah has told us to obey the messenger so shouldn't we be obeying all the commands of the messenger which he will verbaly tell us according to that which allah has said i.e Say"..............."to him. And in other aytes Allah directly says to us "O , believers............." again according to Allah's order 3336,3371. "Do as commanded by Allah and his Messenger." likewise obeying others like bukhari,muslim,tirmadhi e.t.c would actually be shirk - obeying other commanders rather then Allah and his Messenger going against "do as commanded by allah and his Messenger" for no way has Allah said Obey Allah and Bukri, as you no dought get the meaning. Any refutaions welcomed - SALAAMS.

Salaamun DigitalMo It appears that, I am locked out of Al-Hewar, so, I will respond to you hear. You wrote ***The issue is not whether we want to discuss things or not, but when you provide someone with clear refutation for their allegations they still don't accept it, instead of justifyig their stance they raise other baseless allegations. Example Allegation 3. Wudu is not to be found in Al-Qur-an. Response O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful. O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful. O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks. Result No acknowledgement that they have no idea, that they were wrong, that they are misguided. What more do you say to people who don't want to accept what Allah (swt) is commanding them to do?*** So, your position is that, I do not know what I am talking about in general and about wudu in specific, am I correct? Good, lets see. I want you to go to Al-Qur'an and post the ayat where the word "wudu" is mentioned. Even if you can find the term wudu, tell me then, why you do extra movements such as, cleaning the nose, rinsing the mouth, washing your face and ears. How do yo come up with the "washing three times" and the "incantations" which you utter during each washing movement? Has Allah, in His fully detailed Book of Guidance-Al-Qur'an, given you these instructions? What?, did Allah simply forget to mention the extra things which you do in His name and it took Bukhari and Co. to get it right and detail it for you, is this your position? As with Allahu Akbar, wudu, is just another name which the rank hypocrites invented in their rebellion and shirk. Allah says 7.71 He said Indeed uncleanness and wrath from your Lord have lighted upon you; what! do you dispute with me about names which you and your fathers have given? Allah has not sent any authority for them; wait then, I too with you will be of those who wait. 53.23 They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord. You and PinceZed, wish to rationalize the use of the hadiths, as a body of work, for one's spiritual guidance, growth and development and for the establishing of Islamic jurisprudence, am I correct? O.K. then how do you respond to ayat 2951 and analysis? 2.185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion... Main Entry CRITERION Certain a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based. Main Entry CERTAIN Assured in mind; having no doubts; free from suspicions; determined; resolved; not to be doubted or denied; established as a fact; actually existing; sure to happen; inevitable; unfailing; infallible. 6.19 Say What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with IT I may warn you and whomsoever IT reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say I do not bear witness. Say He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him). Clearly, Allah, is stating that, Al-Qur'an, is that which everything else is judged by, hence, its name--Al-Furqan, The Criterion...the PROTECTED BOOK. 29.51 Is it not ENOUGH/SUFFICIENT for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe. 56.77 Most surely it is an honored Quran, 56.78 In a book that is protected 56.79 None shall touch it save the purified ones. 56.80 A revelation by the Lord of the Worlds. 56.81 Do you then hold this HADITH in contempt? 39.23 Allah has revealed the BEST HADITH, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him. 45.6 These are the AYATS of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what HADITH would they believe after Allah and HIS AYATS? Main Entry SUFFICIENT enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end. Main Entry ENOUGH occurring in such quantity, quality, or scope as to fully meet demands, needs, or expectations. synonym see SUFFICIENT 2.1 in or to a degree or quantity that satisfies or that is sufficient or necessary for satisfaction SUFFICIENTLY Main Entry BEST excelling all others most productive of good or of advantage, utility, or satisfaction. In ayat 2951, Allah, rhetorically asks...is not Al-Qur'an, the revealed Book to whom we are to recite, not enough/sufficient for our spiritual guidance, growth and development and for the establishing of Islamic jurisprudence, thus, enabling us to enjoin what is right and fight what is wrong/to practice righteousness, so that, one may obtain the end of/object of this life--Paradise, The Supreme Achievement? So, when Allah asks...is it not His Qur'an enough/sufficient, the believer, can only have ONE answer...YES!!. Allah, asks another qustion is 5681, to wit....will the individual hold in contempt his hadith--Al-Qur-an, the revealed Book? Further, in anticipation of the coming of the likes of Bukhari and Co. and whoever else, Allah asks...in what hadith will you believe in after His BEST HADITH--AL-QUR'AN 30.35 Or, have We sent down upon them an authority so that it speaks of that which they associate with Him? Allah, has warned us NOT TO ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH HIM FOR WHICH HE HAS GIVEN NO AUTHORITY , MEANING, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING OF ALLAH, HIS DIN, HIS QUR-AN OR HIS MESSENGER WHICH, VIA AL-QUR-AN, YOU CANNOT PROVE. Main Entry ASSOCIATE 3 to join or connect together COMBINE to bring together or into relationship in any of various intangible ways (as in memory or imagination). Main Entry AUTHORITY a citation (as from a book or file) used in defense or support the source from which the citation is drawn a conclusive statement or set of statements (as an official decision of a court) power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior. So, to sum up, is not Allah's Qur'an ENOUGH/SUFFICIENT for you? If so, then the hadith of Bukhari and Co. are to be rejected in toto. If Allah's Qur'an is NOT enough/sufficient for you, then, know that you practice shirk and are a rank hypocrite...the fate of whom Allah is very very clear on. So, am I misguided...or are you? Some additional arguement 2133 Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons What will you serve after me? They said We will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. Thou wast not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor wast thou a witness (of those events). Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) T?r when We called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee in order that they may receive admonition. 43.19 And they make the angels-- them who are the servants of the Beneficent God-- female (divinities). What! did they witness their creation? Their evidence shall be written down and they shall be questioned. 7226 "(He Alone) the All-Knower of the Gha'ib (unseen), and He reveals to none His Gha'ib (unseen)." 12102 This is of the news of the Ghaib (unseen) which We reveal by Inspiration to you (O Muhammad SAW). You were not (present) with them when they arranged their plan together, and (also, while) they were plotting. 344 This is a part of the news of the Ghaib (unseen, i.e. the news of the past nations of which you have no knowledge) which We inspire you with (O Muhammad SAW). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed. 7101 Those were the towns whose story We relate unto you (O Muhammad SAW). And there came indeed to them their Messengers with clear proofs, but they were not such as to believe in that which they had rejected before. Thus Allah does seal up the hearts of the disbelievers (from each and every kind of religious guidance). 2099 Thus We relate to you (O Muhammad SAW) some information of what happened before. And indeed We have given you from Us a Reminder (this Qur'an). 1149 This is of the news of the unseen, which We reveal unto you (O Muhammad SAW), neither you nor your people knew them before this. So be patient. Surely, the (good) end is for the Muttaqun (pious - see V.22) 123 We relate unto you (Muhammad SAW) the best of stories through Our Revelations unto you, of this Qur'an. And before this you were among those who knew nothing about it. 650 Say (O Muhammad SAW) "I don't tell you that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor (that) I know the unseen; nor I tell you that I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me by inspiration." Say "Are the blind and the one who sees equal? will you not then take thought?" 7188 Say (O Muhammad SAW) "I possess no power of benefit or hurt to myself except as Allah wills. If I had the knowledge of the Ghaib (unseen), I should have secured for myself an abundance of wealth, and no evil should have touched me. I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings unto people who believe." 1131 "And I do not say to you that with me are the Treasures of Allah, "Nor that I know the Ghaib (unseen);"nor do I say I am an angel, and I do not say of those whom your eyes look down upon that Allah will not bestow any good on them. Allah knows what is in their inner-selves (as regards belief, etc.). In that case, I should, indeed be one of the Zalimun (wrong-doers, oppressors, etc.)." 5335 Is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees? 5335 5241 Or that the Ghaib (unseen) is with them, and they write it down? 6847 Or that they Unseen is in their hands so that they can write it down? Main Entry WITNESS one who has personal knowledge of something. Main Entry PERSONAL done in person without the intervention of another. As you can see, Muhammad, is told by Allah that, he did not witness/have personal knowledge of the events which came before him regarding another messenger, or anything else for that matter, and he only knows of it, because Allah told him directly. If Muhammad, was told by Allah that he was not a witness to what came before him, how then, do we rationalize saying anything about what Muhammad did or didn't do, when we too did not witness it or get it directly from Allah via Al-Qur-an? This the inherent contradiction in the hadithists position? Hasn't Allah said that His Qur-an explains everything? Al-Qur-an is perfect, yet, they wish to maintain that, something that is perfect--Al-Qur-an, needs to be explained by something that is not perfect---the hadiths of Bukhari and Co. Where is the logic and belief in Allah's word in that? Finally, Allah, in Sura Al-Khaf, says that the Christians follow nothing but conjecture. Given that the hadiths are not error/mistake/contradiction free, then, as a body of work, just as with the bible, they too are conjectural material, and are not to be used as a source of spiritual guidance, growth and development/Islamic jurisprudence. Btw, ayat 2846, also disproves any notion of there having been a pilgrimage to Mecca by Ibrahim or any other Messenger. Allah says that the repsonsibility of the messenger is to give warning and good news and, barring Yunus, it appears, they were only sent to their respective peoples. Ibrahim, being a messenger, could not have been in the area of Mecca and not warned the people, that would have been a derelection of his duty and an impossible thing to do. Had he in fact been in the area of Mecca, then ayat 2846 would be false. Consider these verses and arguement as well. 18.54 And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention. 30.58 And certainly We have set forth for men every kind of example in this Quran; and if you should bring them a communication, those who disbelieve would certainly say You are naught but false claimants. 75.19 Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. Main EntryEXAMPLE 1 one that serves as a pattern to be imitated or not to be imitated. Allah, makes it clear that every example necessary for our spiritual guidance, growth/development and for the establishing of Islamic law, is explained in Al-Qur-an. So, given this, where then, in Al-Qur-an, is there an example as to how to perform, from beginning to end, a complete raka? Now, unconscious as it may be, once someone attempts to argue these ayats with other ayats from Al-Qur-an, what, in fact, is that individual attempting to do?---to have Al-Qur-an contradict itself...which is impossible. Remember, what is the object of life?---to practice righteousness so that Allah will grant us the Supreme Achievement--Paradise! Allah, gave us Al-Qur-an for our spiritual guidance, growth/development and for the establishing of Islamic jurisprudence, in order that we practice righteousness in this world and by doing so enter Paradise in the next. Now, what don't you think Allah hasn't fully explained/detailed in His Qur-an towards that end? Looking forward to your response, insha-Allah.

Peace, The one acclaimed is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. And God is fully aware of all things. And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly. Peace be upon those who follow the guidance

Peace, I've been in this forum for a little over 2 weeks. I decided to look through my posts and make sure I haven't been prideful in my comments. Morningdew asked me to swallow my pride. I thought I already did, but I guess I vomitted it right back up. What is humility? Dictionary.com defines it as The state or quality of being humble; freedom from pride and arrogance; lowliness of mind; a modest estimate of one's own worth; a sense of one's own unworthiness through imperfection and sinfulness; self-abasement; humbleness. An act of submission or courtesy. Syn Lowliness; humbleness; meekness; modesty; diffidence. Sounds a little like the definition of Muslim. So humility is the antithesis of pride. What is pride? Well, there is good pride and there is bad pride. Good pride A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect, ie, "Taking pride in your work." Bad pride The quality or state of being proud; inordinate self-esteem; an unreasonable conceit of one's own superiority in talents, beauty, wealth, rank, etc., which manifests itself in lofty airs, distance, reserve, and often in contempt of others. Those that walk in pride he is able to abase. --Dan. iv. 37. Pride that dines on vanity sups on contempt. --Franklin. I believe that one cannot achieve the fruits of humility while sowing seeds of pride. It is the the yin-yang, the "towards God, away from God". The only way to achieve this state of humility is by debunking the illusion of pride. The QXP tasreef of the Qur'an explains that "Only those with an open mind, free of preconceptions can touch the essence of this book(Al-Qur'an)". I am proud to have rid myself of the idea that the ahadith are an essential part of Islam. I really felt liberated in doing so. I felt like it was a clean slate for me. But what I am realizing is that this is not enough. I realize that fighting pride is a daily battle. It never ends. As I browsed through the various comments I made, I can see pride in them. Even as I talk about the values of humility, I see a sense of pride. I think humility is a noble goal, but one that can never be truly reached unless guided by the hand of God Himself. Humility requires constant refinement, constant re-evaluation. We only get closer to humble, never truly humble. Very few have ever reached this status, and some are mentioned in Al-Qur'an. Thus the importance of La-Illaha-IlAllah. The Shahada is the essence of humility. It is the reminder that we are nothing save the grace of Allah. It is the criterion with which to weigh all decisions. It is applying a clean-slate in every decision, in every action, in every thought. Just my humble 2 cents. Peace, Tay

http//www.submission.org/hadith/whisper.html The CORRUPTION of Hadiths and the "Chinese Whispers" The lecturer in a college course was talking about the verbal transfer of information, demonstrating the effect of verbal transfer of information on altering an original message What he did was ask 10 people to come forward from his audience ..... he then asked 9 of them to leave the hall, and then gave the one in the hall a small piece of paper to read out to the audience ..... The man read the following extract from the Bible "After this Jesus went down to Capernaun in company with his mother and followers and his disciples, but they did not stay there long. As it was near the time of the jewish passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. There he found in the temple the dealers in cattle, sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers seated at their tables. Jesus made a whip of cords and drove them out of the temple, sheep, cattle, and all." After that the lecturer took the piece of paper from the first man put it in his pocket , called the 2nd man in , and asked the first man to repeat to the 2nd man the words that he just read out of the paper. The man said the following ; "After this Jesus went down to Capernaun in company with his mother and his disciples, and they stayed a long time. After that Jesus went back to Jerusalem. Beside the temple he saw people who were buying cattle and pigeons, he also saw money-changers. Jesus kicked them all out." Now the lecturer asked the third man to come in and asked the second man to repeat what he just heard from the 1st man ....... he in turn said "After this Jesus went down to Jerusalem with his mother and some of his disciples and stayed for a couple of days .... After that Jesus went back to the temple. Beside the temple he saw people who were buying cattle and pigs, he also saw money-changers. Jesus shouted at them and told them they were wicked." Once again the next man came in , and the message was repeated as follows "One day Jesus was in Jerusalem with his mother where he was was for many years .... but one day Jesus left Jerusalem and went to a far away. Beside the temple he saw people who were buying horses and pigs, he shouted at them for having so much money and told them that money was wicked." By the time the next man narrated the same story it was "Jesus was born in Jerusalem and lived with his mother for many years there .... one day Jesus went to the market place in Jerusalem and in the market he saw people who were riding horses and selling pigs, he shouted at them for having so much animals and money asked them to give their money to charity for it is wicked." in turn, the next man said the following "Jesus was born in Jerusalem and lived with his mother all his life .... one day Jesus went to the market place in Jerusalem and in the market he saw people who were riding horses and selling pigs, he shouted at them for their cruelty to the animals and asked them to give up all their money or to make sure their animals are well fed." in turn the words were changed to "Jesus was born in Jerusalem and lived near a market place where there were lots of people mistreating the poor pigs and whipping their horses ......... one day Jesus went to the market place and saw those wicked people who were only interested in selling their pigs, they were very loud and rude to him, so he did not reply back but cursed their money and left ..." Now any of you can go back and read the first account of this story and then once again read this last one which was only the 6th new narration Moreover, what is important here, is that this incident took place in a period of 10 minutes in a lecture ........ What would it be for thousands of saying , most of them many pages long that were transmitted through many people and over a period of 200 years ??? You must also note that the ten men in the lecture were all honestly trying to repeat the story as best as they can remember ...... thus we cannot accuse them of deliberately trying to corrupt the story they were narrating ......... Similarly , many of the narrators of the hadith were honest people, but how accurate can a story be narrated across 200 years and by 6 to 10 different men in a chain ???? We should not be surprised to see God clearly telling us in the Quran to follow NO OTHER HADITH but the Quran. http//www.submission.org/dozen.html We should not be surprised to see this massive corruption in Hadiths and sunna book. See our file at; http//www.submission.org/had-corruption.html We should not be surprised to see that GOD DELIBERATELY permitted this 99% corruption of Hadiths and Sunna, so His true believers can realize easily that their ONLY salvation is through HIS WORDS, the Quran, and nothing else. Salaam Idris, Nice post. Reminds me of my own experience when I attended this sales course once (nothing to do with religion!) some years ago. I'll try and relate this story, hopefully it's not corrupted! The instructor wanted to give us a lesson on body language. Mentioning that this was important when you're talking with a potenetial client or customer. He gave different examples, like if you were working in a restaurant as a waiter, how your body language would say lots about you. We were approximately 80 or more 'students' in this huge hall and there was a stage. So he called up 8 people from the crowd to physically show what the effects of body language can be. Now the difference between the "chinese whispers" and this elaboration is the fact that this used ONLY body language... no words! (That's why it's a little tough to explain!) So, the instructor asked 7 of them to face the wall. And he explained to the one student facing him, that he would show him a series of actions, and he had to repeat those EXACT same action to the next guy... and the 2nd would repeat to the 3rd and so on. Now, because we, the audience saw the whole thing, we thought it was pretty funny, how the whole thing transformed! The series of actions went something like this - The instructor put his hand in his pocket. Pulled out an imaginary balloon... stretched it... blew it... tied it up at the end... threw it behind his back... and kicked it with his heel. I hope you're visualizing this 'picture'. So, the 1st student showed the second student, and he missed a move (I think it was 'tying the balloon'). The 2nd student tried to show the 3rd student what he thought he saw. And the story went on. By the time it got to the 8th student, it looked totally different to what the instructor had shown! Amazing... right infront of our eyes! The whole thing took less than 10 minutes! The instructor then asked the 1st student to say out loud what he thought he saw the instructor do. He said, he had taken a balloon out of his pocket, blow it , tie it, throw it, then kick it. Then the instructor asked the 8th student what she thought she was being told... Get this!... she said, according to her, it looked like the 7th student took out some money from his pocket, showed it to her then he summoned her to go with him! I don't know if I made it clear... as I said, this whole explanation was totally visual. I guess you had to be there. Some time later, after the course... I thought to myself... hmm... what if that same thing happened to the "traditional prayer"? But I quickly dismissed that thought with - Ah, but the salat is "preserved" by God Himself... so I shouldn't even worry about it! Who knew!?... Well, no regrets... I'm thankful to Allah for guiding me to where I am now. Peace. Moral of the story - 'words' are not the only thing that can get corrupted... 'action' is prone to the same problem too Quotes from followers of hadith The Bible and Hadiths (Sayings of Prophet Muhammad) were written in a 3000-year and 200-year span respectively. They both contain Truth and falsehood in them The Hadith references mostly used on the internet today come from Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu Dawud and some other volumes. The word "Sahih" means "authentic" in Arabic, which is quite misleading in this case. In general, the Hadiths that come from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are more authentic and Truthful than the ones from Sunan Abu Dawud. If however, a Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud matches Hadith(s) from the Sahih ones or the Noble Quran, then it becomes valid. Otherwise, you are highly advised to not trust it. You see, unlike the Noble Quran where it was documented on the spot as it was revealed from Allah Almighty, the Hadiths including the "Sahih" ones were documented in a 200-year span. A large percentage of them were even documented during the political conflicts that took place among Muslims, where some Hadith(s) claim that a group of Arabs for instance were better than others, which totally contradicts the Noble Quran in 4913, where Allah Almighty said that the best among Mankind are the most in righteousness "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (The Noble Quran, 4913)" Important Also, many hypocrites from the Jews and Christians at that time tried to insert poison and corruption into Islam like they did to their Bible. There is a term in Arabic that we use called "The Israelite Hadiths", which is usually referring to hadiths that are highly doubtful and were believed made up by the hypocrites who embraced Islam untruthfully just to destroy it. Allah Almighty warned us from these hypocrites "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 372)" So Muslims please beware of the Hadiths as you are with the Bible and always compare them to the Noble Quran for validity and integrity check. Similar to the Hadiths, the 66 books of the Bible were documented in a 3000-year span, and they were selected from 24,000 books. So the Bible too contains the Truth and the man-made corruption and falsehood in it. Please see the proof from the Bible's own Theologians and Historians claims and Bible's History documentations. We Muslims believe that the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran are the closest to the Truth. The same must be applied to the Hadiths! The only doctrine that Allah Almighty promised to protect from man's corruption and falsehood was the Noble Quran. Allah Almighty said "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 159)" "Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 8521-22)" Neither the Hadiths nor the Bible were promised to be personally protected by Allah Almighty Himself. That is why you see conflicts among Christians as to which books and gospels are valid and which are not. The same thing is with the Hadiths among Muslims. But almost 100% of the 1.4 billion Muslim population world-wide agree on the entire Noble Quran, except for a cult called the "Submitters" who disagree on two Noble Verses only, 9128-129, and they don't even form 1 million people world-wide. They had been refuted at Answering the Islamic Cults. Anyway, so everything that you read or hear from religious claims must match the Noble Quran or else you must immediately and unquestionably discard it. http//www.aol40.com/warning.htm "Do they not consider the Qu'ran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many contradictions."Qu'ran 482