Salat & Zakat

Salamun alaika Arif, Many places in the Quran, are about establishing the practise of Islam, and paying a free, that will enable this. It is the same as how tax, supports modern society, except this society is better, taking metaphysical reality into consideration. Please give references for the "many" places in al-qur'aan about paying a "fee/tax" to enable practice of islam. Perhaps you are talking about "jizya" for the disbelievers 929 Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Scripture; until they pay the fine (jizya), willingly or unwillingly. If you are referring to "zakat", it means "purification/betterment" according to the qur'aanic context and usage. Different ways for "zakat"/purification/betterment are charity/sadaqat/infaaq and also upholding salat. The islamic state can only "tax" 20% of the "ghanimtum" (something earned/obtained without difficulty/trouble) as explained in my previous post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13273.msg112604#msg112604 There is only one other place that I have found so far in al-qur'aan where the government is authorized to take charity from one's monies in order to purify and better them, and that is when one commits a sin and then acknowledges it and repents sincerely 9102 And others who have acknowledged their sins, they have mixed good work with bad. Perhaps God will pardon them. God is Forgiving, Merciful. 9103 Take from their money a charity to purify them and develop them with it, and recite over them; for your recitals are a tranquility for them; and God is Hearer, Knowledgeable. 9104 Did they not know that it is God who accepts repentance from His servants, and He takes the charities, and that God is the Pardoner, Merciful. Regular charity/sadaqat/infaaq is out of the excess of one's surplus savings, and is left up to us how much to give out of the excess savings provided we neither get too stingy nor too excessive 2219 ........... And they ask you how much are they to give, Say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think. 1729 And do not make your hand stingy by holding it to your neck, nor shall you lay it fully open so you become in despair and regret. The charity is obligatory in the islamic system, and has been referred to as "due"/haq of the needy 1726 And give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer; and do not waste excessively. 3038 So give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer. That is best for those who seek God's presence, and they are the successful ones.

Peace brother maxq, but it is not something mandatory. Please go through the discussion at the following thread in which I have attempted to show from al-qur'aan that salat is mandatory for both muslimeen and mumineen. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0

Then, where did the "sitting" after every other sujuud come from? Maybe it is not compulsary? And according to the above, can we still say that the salaat we learn from "our fathers" is what the quraan explains? The important aspect of salah is that it is done solely for Allah alone. Salah was a familiar concept to those who heard the Qur'an back then. It was a matter of devoting worship solely to Allah alone. Salah was also performed by Prophets before the Prophet Muhammad.

peace brother Tanveer, Please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a verbal or physical act which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration to the chin DURING AQIMI AL-SALAT. That is a much more specific question! Since there are not many examples involving the regular/timed slw, I dont think I will be able to find any evidence. I would like to point out however that the argument for "physical prostration to the chin DURING aqimi al-salat" is extremely weak from the evidence you have presented so far. How does 4137, 2724, 17107, 7120 prove a physical prostration? Try puting in "to acknowledge / give recognition" (or the appropriate variation) into the SJD occurrences. Also Lam-Qaf-Waw may not necessarily mean a physical fall. In my understanding, "sujood" during "aqimi al-salaat" signifies a physical prostration to/with the chin and my evidence is 17107 as I elaborated in my last post. IMHO, if that is your only evidence, that is weak. The weapons/swords could be in an upholster or belt during the physical prostration to the chin. It doesn't say they are holding the weapons in their hands during salat ! They could bring weapons with them and thus be carrying them even when the weapons are upon their person in a belt or an upholster. Why would it discuss laying your weapons/goods down at the end of the sign if there was an option of a holster/belt? Are you suggesting they prostrate with swords sticking out from their holsters/belts, whilst other people are prostrating beside them? In my understanding, the oration/reading of al-qur'aan in salat can be done during the physical prostration to the chin, although usually it is done while standing in salat. It is possible to utter a brief sign from al-qur'aan or phrases of praise and glorification of Allah during the physical prostration to the chin. Evidence? If there is no evidence, then this sounds very individual. If it is individual, do you imagine a coherent group slw or not? Also, when Zakariah was standing in the process of slw, he was clearly NOT prostrating to the chin. This would suggest prostrating to the chin would be done at the end, if so, that would conflict with 3215, so which is it? The leader and the group should all physically prostrate to the chin at the end of the salat because they all heard al-qur'aan being recited per 17107. The leader would be facing them to orate, and then would prostrate towards them and the audience towards him, or all in one direction? And how is this related to prostrating to God? At times other than salat, when the knowledgable ones hear al-qur'aan being recited, they are supposed to do the physical prostration to/with their chins in any of the 3 ways mentioned at the end of this post. So, now you are implying during the regular/timed slw the prostrating to the chin is done at the end, but out with the regular/timed slw its whenever the knowledgable ones hear 'al quran' being recited they should prostrate to the chin? What is this distinction based on? Please provide evidence from al-qur'aan that "falling down to the chin in prostration" can be taken idiomatically. Because to take it physically makes it extremely impractical, unless its only lowering the head (your option 3).

Peace brother Wakas, It seems that 11114 addresses "those who remember" (zakireen), thus also showing that because of the usage of "those who remember", the addressee cannot be only one person 11114 And you shall perform the salat during the two edges of the day, and the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember. My preliminary research indicates that according to al-qur'aan, "those who remember" are "the people with/possessing understanding" (oolo al-albab) 2269 He grants wisdom to whom He chooses, and whoever is granted wisdom, has been given much good. Only those with understanding will remember. 37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God. And those who are well founded in knowledge say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding. 1319 Is one who knows that the truth has been sent down to you from your Lord like one who is blind? Only those with understanding will remember. 399 Is one better who is meditating during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess understanding will remember. So at least people who cannot understand due to a mental illness are excluded from the addressees of 11114 ! Peace

Salaam Farah, all, First of all welcome to the forum welcome i use the same verses as the original poster, because they are the salat-addressing verses No, not all of them are salat addressing verses. When al-qur'aan mentions salaat to be upheld the phrase "AQIMI AL-SALAT" is used, not glorify (sabih) or praise (hamd) or remember (uzkur), or call (udu'u) or any other imperative. Of course "salaat" is for Allah's remembrance and praise but is not the only way of remembering and praising Allah and is also more than just praise and glorification of Allah. We can remember and praise Allah many times a day but lets try to find out how many times a day we are advised to uphold "salaat". When Allah tells us about the timings and names of "salaat", He clearly uses the word "salaat" in the verse, and not "praise" or "remembrance". Thus we cannot use 20130 or 3018 to determine timing of salat. 2963 and 3125 are clear proof that praise of Allah can be done outside salat 2963 And if you ask them "Who sends down water from the sky, thus reviving the land after its death?" They will Say "God," Say "Praise be to God." But most of them do not understand. 3125 And if you ask them "Who created the heavens and the Earth?" They will Say "God." Say "Praise be to God." Yet, most of them do not know. Here the Prophet is praising Allah while in a conversation with the rejecters and not during salat. 3533 They will enter the gardens of Eden, where they will be adorned with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments in it will be of silk. 3534 And they will Say "Praise be to God who took away our sorrow. Our Lord is Forgiving, Appreciative." 3973 And those who reverenced their Lord will be driven to Paradise in groups. When they reach it, and its gates are opened, its guards will say to them "Peace be upon you. You have done well, so enter to abide herein." 3974 And they said "Praise be to God who has fulfilled His promise to us, and He made us inherit the Earth, enjoying Paradise as we please. What a beautiful recompense for the workers!" Here the residents of Paradise are praising Allah after entering it, obviously not while upholding salat. 425 The heavens would nearly shatter from above them, and the Angels praise the glory of their Lord, and they ask forgiveness for those on Earth. Surely, God is the Forgiver, the Merciful. To my knowledge, nowhere in al-qur'aan are angels mentioned as upholding salat but they praise Allah, thus praising Allah can be done outside salat. 5248 You shall be patient for the judgement of your Lord, for you are in Our sights; and glorify the praise of your Lord when you rise. This is another proof that praise is not necessarily same as salat. We are being asked to praise Allah when we rise. Now one can rise before dawn or immediately after sunrise; does that mean that there is a required salat before dawn or immediately after sunrise ? One can however praise Allah at anytime even when one is not upholding salat. dawn prayer It is not dawn prayer but dawn salat. For prayer Allah uses the word "du'a", so dawn prayer would be "du'a al-fajr" and not "salat al-fajr". The dawn salat is mentioned as "salat al-fajr" in al-qur'aan. noon/middle prayer 2238 Remember the contact prayers, as well as the middle prayer and rise up for God humbly. "salat al-wusta" in the context of 2238 cannot mean "the middle prayer" but can only mean "the best/balanced/moderate salat". I will re-quote from my post above "In my understanding there is no such thing as the "middle" prayer in al-qur'aan. That is the wrong translation of "salat al-wusta" which means "best/balanced/moderate salat" in the context of 2238 and al-qur'aan as a whole. According to 2238 Allah wants us to uphold all our salaats in the best/balanced/moderate manner. Firstly, which salat would be the "middle" salat ? If there are 3 salats x, y and z then depending on which one is the first or initial salat would determine the middle salat. For example if x is the first or initial salat then y would be the middle salat, but if y is the first salat then z would be the middle one, and if z is the first salat then x would be the middle one. Allah never leaves something vague as al-qur'aan is clear and detailed. I challenge anyone to give qur'aanic evidence as to which salat is CLEARLY the first salat and which salat is CLEARLY the "middle" salat according to al-qur'aan. If the middle salat is so important as to be mentioned separately in 2238 then Allah should have clearly told us which salat He is talking about as the middle salat and not leave it unclear and up to guess work. Secondly, in 2238 when it says protect the salats in the beginning of the verse, that logically includes ALL salats and then it is redundant to say AND the middle salat, if the middle salat is a separate salat, because the word salats in the beginning of the verse automatically includes the middle salat as well IF THERE IS INDEED A MIDDLE SALAT. That logically proves that by "salat al-wusta" Allah does not mean a separate middle salat but is giving a descriptive property of how ALL our salats should be, i.e. the best/balanced/moderate salat, meaning that all our salats should be upheld in the best/balanced/moderate manner. Thirdly, if one studies the usage of all the words derived from the root WST in al-qur'aan one finds that the meaning "middle" does not fit in any of those usages but the meaning best/balanced/moderate fits in those occurrences. Thus in 2238 "wusta" cannot mean middle because of the logical contradiction presented in the second paragraph above, and can only mean "best/balanced/moderate" as per context of that verse and the usage of similar words throughout al-qur'aan. Please also refer to following links for explanation of what "salat al-wusta" means in context of 2238 http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6028.msg92976#msg92976 http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1171.0 (this link has a comprehensive forum discussion/debate on salat al-wusta) http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm" afternoon (declining sun) prayer 1778 Observe the contact prayer when the sun starts its decline from the highest point in the sky towards the darkness of the night, and read the Quran at dawn, indeed the reading of the Quran at dawn is witnessed. "Dulook" means "declination" or "rubbing"; it does not mean "when the sun starts its decline from the highest point in sky". Declination could be at any time during the sun's movement from the highest point; so which exact time of declination is Allah referring to ? In my understanding it is the time when the sun is both "declining" and "rubbing at the horizon" at the time of sunset which fulfils BOTH meanings of "dulook". Thus "li dulook al-shams" in 1778 can only mean "from the rubbing of the sun at the horizon and declination at the time of its setting". Thus the time for salat according to 1778 would be from the declination and rubbing of the sun at the horizon to the darkness of the night, which would be dusk. sunset prayer 20130 again, and 5039 Therefore, be patient with their utterances and glorify and praise your Lord before sunrise and before sunset (this is the other "end" of daylight, along with dawn) I hope you don't mind but this is a bit funny. Do you mean to say that the "sunset salaat" is BEFORE SUNSET ? ;D being people whose hearts are wide open to submission, we can volunteer to do more than the required number of prayers, no? even 5 prayers takes only about 10 minutes of reverence. the angels and the whole universe glorify and praise God constantly. this is truth. isn't that what we are here for? We are trying to find the required number of SALAAT not required number of PRAYERS (DU'A). I still agree with you that one can perform voluntary salaat as many times as one wants. That is not, however, what we are trying to find out. We are trying to find out how many times muslims/mumins are REQUIRED or OBLIGATED to perform/uphold salaat according to al-qur'aan. Thus for example according to 7626 7626 And from the night you shall prostrate to Him and praise Him throughout. This verse is asking us to praise Allah THROUGHOUT the night; DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD NOT SLEEP AT ALL DURING THE NIGHT ? Tanveer

Where in the Quran is prayer mentioned as the one that is performed with a human body? Provide everything, from bow, prostrate, stand in the prayer, pray, ...... Peace Alen, This point reminds me of a thought that occurred to me once while thinking about this same thing... We know that the Qur'an mentions figs, dates, pomegranates, bananas, grapes....Just imagine someone wanting to endorse the idea that God commanded us to make and eat fruit salad made out of these specific fruits (which is something all of his forebearers and everyone that he knows does, including doctors who highly recommend it) and wanted to prove that we must eat fruit salad by saying that the Qur'an mentions the above fruits in different ayat. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't deny them the right to make their fruit salad. However, in the end, does this support the practice that advocates that we must put them all together into one dish and make fruit salad out of them just as these people have seen fit to do, and that furthermore, we are obligated to make this fruit salad?

Peace be upon you, 1778- is telling us that we should maintain salaat from the rubbing of the SUN until the darkness of night AND the dawns reading. The rubbing of the sun is the sun going past the horizon which looks to us as if it is rubbing the horizon. We see a similar statement when Dhul Quarnain got to a place where the sun set in murky water. The Sun does not set im water nor rub anything, but that is how it appears. The timing is further clarified when the God gives us the second time CLEARLY by name "DAWN" reading. The Timings are dusk and dawn, the times when the day and night merge.

Please start another thread period. This thread is now locked and the useless comments posted recently deleted.

Salam, the salat in the quran indicates both physical salat(contact method) and other times refers to the establishment of the ivine system(society based on quranic values) sometimes it refers to oaths of allegiance too,dependign on context.All fitting meanings should be taken and we should not chain(mahjoor) quranic meanings to one and discard others,as God's wisdom has multiple meanings in many verses and yet they all make sense andfit beautifully.Peace.

Peace idolfree1 do not worry, i have a weird sense of humor, my students love it though... btw i am on extended sick leave, this is why i have much time on my hands to bother you here have a wonderful life in a peaceful universe ;D

Peace be upon you Simple, Well done!

Peace be upon you Boost, Thank you for the kind words and I am sorry for not having finished by now. The problem is I am being lazy and trying to make changes to another article when I really need to just write from the beginning. I will set another finish date for this weekend.

Salam, lol,they are blind and ignorant.No point even discussing that.Salam

Salam, if you are not deliberate or malicious God does not hold you responsible.He is ar rahman.Salam.

peace nerspi, all, I did a little study of this previously, and I found it very interesting and I believe this concept is significantly deeper than to simply praise by mouth. I would suggest researching yourself initially by using 'Project Root List' and looking up the root Siin-Ba-Ha. http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm Then, once done, read the following discussion http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=803.msg56324#msg56324 Wakas

Peace be upon you Joe Betik, spot on idolfree1. for a while we were a bit unsure if we could share our understanding on this very issue or discuss it in an open forum like this. alhamdulillah. the train is on its way! ;D just for general information, there might be variations here and there, especially on 'labels' or 'descriptions', but the very principle is very much parallel. and we are all here, at least for us, for similarities rather than differences, and for complimentaries rather than oppositions. yes. no matter how unimaginable some of the understandings are. I agree, but we have to take the process all the way to defining, because that is why many people are confused today. We say "soul" and everyone has a different idea about it, so there is confusion. examples; what one considers as 'light' might be 'energy' to another Correct what one considers 'nafs' to be the 'conscious mind' might be the 'sub-conscious mind' to another Here is where problems will occur, because nafs(spirit) is the subconscious. Nafs is the AUTOMATIC part of being. Consciousness is the part of us that PERCIEVES but cannot be percieved itself. Consciousness percieves things like thoughts and images which are all part of the subconscious activity. but nonetheless, what we are to proceed in discussing should all be based on 'personal experiences' and 'understanding', which in our study is referred to as 'theory and practice'. otherwise, it would be of lesser value and significance. I agree, and as regards the above statement about conscious vs. subconcious, I am willing to provide as much examples as I can to show that everyone has experienced this truth. for this very moment, we would just confine it to our very own individual 'self'. only later on perhaps, we would expand the discussion to include the universe, no matter how tempting it might be. is that alright with you, brother? Respected and I will try, but I find it hard sometimes to hold back certain understandings. anyway, we are of the understanding that the mind, as generally accepted by science, is made up of two very distinct spheres - the conscious and the sub-conscious. for the average joe, the former is active, while the latter is passive. I would further add that some people have not even awaked the "conscious" faculty fully. They imitate rather than chose thier own path. but The God says in al-Qur'an, that the active mind must be managed, supervised, contained or perhaps even be reined in (kill yourselves. remember musa? once he said this to his people, and then instructed to him by the 'servant' of his Lord.). Right, Musa said "kill your nafs(subconcious)", because we come to a spiritual lifestyle, we have to kill all the false conditionings in our minds and be "born again". Consiousness is only that faculty that WATCHES and DECIDES. It is that part of us that we call "I". It is that part of us that has been with us since we were children, while the subconcious (out likes, dislikes, ideas, philosophies, physical body, etc) continues to change. The Consciousness is the part that does not change. So we must "kill" the nafs and be "born again". Regarding the word "mind", the "mind" is just a vehicle used by "consciousness", so it is incorrect for us to say "conscious mind" and "subconscious mind". I did not respond to the rest as I did not want to make the posts too long, but I will be submitting a new thread on this where I will give my full understanding of the topic.

Peace be upon you Joe Betik, the main issue is The Metaphysical (ghaib). Yes, I agree with your post, especially the above statement. We are getting closer and closer to the truth of this message. We must not let up on the studying so we can effectively present this message to others in a way that is easy to understand.

Peace be upon you Enquirer, Easy kyle. With regard to meditation/salat at certain fixed times,i feel that the term 24-7 i was using in a general sense,meaning constantly...Just like the zen buddhists have certain fixed times for meditation (like first thing in the morning.) but the goal is to spend each waking moment in a state of receptivity,observation,peacefulness,insight and mindfulness... Yes, I agree with what you are saying. I study meditation from the Khemetic understanding as explained by Ra Un Nefer Amen in his books "Metu Neter" and "Tree of Life Meditation System". As you correctly stated, the goal is to receptive, yet WIDE AWAKE as we go through life. Compared to most people who are receptive and "sleep" as they go through life. This process is called Men Ab. But as you also said, there are set times when it is best for one to go to a quiet place to do an set meditation, dawn and dusk, especially during full moons and winter and summer solstices. It is these set meditations that I believe "salaat" is describing. Because without these set meditations, we cant achieve the Men Ab, or waking meditation. Obviously sometimes we will be on 'auto-pilot' with regard to our conciousness/salat/insight/meditation and we will just be observing reality...Zen buddhists consider just observing reality in day to day life as being meditation or salat... Yes, that is the wakefulness that we are trying to achieve and was the subject of the Pert Em Hru "book of coming forth by day", one of the oldest spiritual texts on the earth. To be sure we have to be mindful of our emotions and thoughts 24 hours a day (when sleeping is a slightly different matter!!) ,and this is why i say salat is the continual process of meditation...However,i have no problem with people wanting to do 1,2,3,4,5 or whatever number or timing of 'individual salats' if they wish to develop their own custom made personalised pragmatic programme of salat... Keeping in mind what I suggested above, that one must do the set meditation in order to achieve the waking meditation, I have no problem with someone wanting to meditate 100 times a day, HOWEVER, this is where the statement "a TIMED BOOK" comes into play. The consciousness is like the male, it can deliver the seed at any time, but the subconcious is like the female, it is time restriced, cyclical, it cannot always accept the seed. Also, we must make the distinction between different reasons for meditation. The Meditation that I am talking about, that is explained in the literature I gave, is about PROGRAMMING BEHAVIOR, not just simply becoming aware. So what is being said is that , yes, people can meditate any time they want, but there are times based on the cycles of life, that are BEST for meditation. Times when the subconscious is MOST RECEPTIVE TO CHANGE. Thats what we are dealing with here in regards to "Timing". Just like someone can eat food at any time of the day, even at 12 midnight, bu there are certain times when it is best to eat food based on the cycle of our digestive system, etc. With regard to the verses asking for permission before and after salat-al-fajr and salat al-eesha,i regard this as possibly meaning children/people seeking permission before going to peoples rooms at certain times due to privacy reasons (undressing,sexual reasons,private conversations etc..),and the fajr signifying the 'first' communal social interaction of the day, and the eesha meaning the final communal social interaction of the day. The other parts of quoted verses do signify getting dressed also as a time needed for permission as well,so this may complement what i have stated with respect to privacy. I hope im clear in what im trying to say!!! The rest of your post i mostly agree with... Yes, you are very clear with what you are trying to express. My only question is "salaat" used as an indicator at dawn and dusk, but not at dawn, if this all deals with the same topic of social interaction? Last thing I want to ad about timing and dawn and dusk. Meditation is the state between awake and sleep. When we just wake up (dawn) and when we are about to go to sleep (dusk) are perfectly natural times for this process. Please reflect upon what I have said regarding timing and give me your thoughts.

So far the broad themes that seem to be most discussed are Are ritual salats necessary? How many salats per day? What is Salat? Praying toward the Kaaba? Sunni Salat How to perform salat? Is Salat necessary? How do we know how to perform salat? What are some other FAQs for this topic?