Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Greetings of peace,
- The code shows us that there are patterns throughout the quran - and that is fact. For example http//19.org/index.php?id=14,31,0,0,1,0
(I myself, don't fully agree with "discoveries" that use alphabet sequence/numbering system, since this could be changed/chosen by people who do the test to make the end result divisible. However, there are many other purely scripture related patterns discovered that are not related to this, as some are shown in Edip's article in the link above.)
The counting of 19 is deemed by 7431 as ONLY a "fitna", in other words an attractive temptation to people who are attracted to it (you know who they are).
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The seeing of the pattern benefits as "and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt" (7431)
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If it was "fitna", it can't logically increase your faith nor remove your doubt.
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It "increases" faith in the sense that any normal reading/writing by humans would not have such patterns.
How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light.
There are many more theories on logic and how the brain works that don't have 19 of anything. Again, if you look in any random sample, the frequency of 19 divisibles is going to be 1 out of 19. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with the 1 and therefore never see or mention the other 18.
- This is not related to the pattern in the scripture.
The ignorant majority in fact believes in numerology codes when they see it like mosquitos attracted to a bug zapper. Many Sunnis believe in Code 19 like many Christians and Jews believe in the Bible Code and both believe in the significance and relevance of such codes as signs and in sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorants. This is why you will never find a decent academic journal publishing such crap.
Again, the significance is "and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt" (7431).
The code is not to make people beleive blindly in whatever was translated (as what people suggest in such ducumentaries), and you can't see the truth when believing blindly.
The code just makes more confidence that the text is preserved in some way. And, makes you have more confident that there are ways to infer a lot of truth/understanding from it - if God so wills.
Indeed, the god doesn't say that he counted everything in multiples of 19 as you imagine. In fact, I am certain that the way the god counts things is not even the same as the way humans count. I am sure that he doesn't need to use a base-10 system or a cumbersome Abjad system like that of Code 19.
God also didn't say that using tungsten would work for the bulb, but it is fact - under God's laws - that it works.
Humans can learn and seek the facts/patterns in God's laws - this is demonstrated in science, For example in Physics Newton's discovery "F=ma" shows how God's system works related to force, mass and acceleration.
In the same way, it is not said and not true that EVERYTHING is multiple of 19. It is multiple of 19 in relation to some topics, same as F=ma for certain topics only. Same as the bulb worked with certain metals only.
- How are Matres Lectionis used in the great reading?
- Why are the Arabic letters which don't have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet relegated to the end of the Abjad system?
- Conventional letter orders, which have to be memorized, are typical of school-taught literacy. The order is transmitted systematically and universally in formal teaching. This is what makes them useable as a numbering system in Greek and Hebrew. How was this possible in the case of the Arabian dialects which were not taught in school prior to the revelation of the great reading?
(I myself, don't fully agree with "discoveries" that use alphabet sequence/numbering system, since this could be changed/chosen by people who do the test to make the end result divisible. There are many other patterns discovered that are not related to this, as shown in Edip's article in the link above.)
I see clear patterns in the many other purely scripture-based facts.
Peace,
Zidane. -
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I disagree because a code that would rule out human authorship would leave us with just one intelligent alternative the deity.
Really? What about the possibility of intelligent life beyond our planet? What about Gods that are not benevolent? There are infinite possibilities.
You are making an assumption that the only thing that can exist that is more intelligent than us is THE God the quran describes.I don't think there is a code, but if there was, and if it really is beyond the scope of humans, then it only proves that it is created by something more intelligent than us. That's it. Anything else is just an assumption.
To make the conclusion that it is written by a benevolent, all-loving God or whatever, you have to READ it and judge it by the content.
If the content is true, then it doesn't matter if there is a code or not, people should believe in it. So really the code has no purpose. -
Peace to all,
Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims, it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God, this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran, and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd, so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong, and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves, whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.
Kurt
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Peace to all,
Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims, it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God, this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran, and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd, so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong, and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves, whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.
Kurt
Peace Kurt,
Well there is something called LYING.
But you proved my point. You have come to the conclusion that these claims must be true because of the content. You say that it knows us better than ourselves. That's an observation based on careful reading - not on counting numbers.The fact is that if there are beings out there who are more intelligent than us other than god, and there CAN be, then there also CAN be a book which contains such a code but what is says is utter crap.
In the end, it all comes down to reading the words, not counting numbers and looking for patterns.
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Really? What about the possibility of intelligent life beyond our planet?
There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.
What about Gods that are not benevolent? There are infinite possibilities.
I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.
You are making an assumption that the only thing that can exist that is more intelligent than us is THE God the quran describes.
I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.
I don't think there is a code, but if there was, and if it really is beyond the scope of humans, then it only proves that it is created by something more intelligent than us. That's it. Anything else is just an assumption.
I think the one assumption I'm making is better than all other possible assumptions. I could be wrong though.
To make the conclusion that it is written by a benevolent, all-loving God or whatever, you have to READ it and judge it by the content.
I agree.
If the content is true, then it doesn't matter if there is a code or not, people should believe in it. So really the code has no purpose.
The content may be true, but even humans are capable of producing truthful content. I believe there is evidence of divine authorship in the reading apart from a code that probably doesn't exist, but I think a code in the reading would go a long way in proving the deity's claim that the reading couldn't possibly be written by humans which would make the code very useful indeed.
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Salaam Nun,
Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days P.
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?Some time back I saw a very good series of programmes on TV, mainly to do with nature around us and from space to earth. In that series I watched one programme featuring the mathematical code in nature around us.
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19, but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video, and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.peace
Peace )
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Peace --
It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.
The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...
19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...
Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................2039..........129..........138..........138...........
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3Here is the entire structure in the link below...
Go figure...893 = 19 x 47
Peace
Hope you feel good GW
We have discussed it here but have you
had achance look this new discovery one pattern with 26138 digits interlocks whole book
Peace ) -
Peace to all,
Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims, it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God, this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran, and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd, so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong, and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves, whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.
Kurt
Peace )
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Peace Nun, everyone,
As Nun says, ?it?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical?. The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses. Nun?s checksum method is described here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16442.msg175363#msg175363
Nineteen years after the Prophet's death, some scribes injected false verses at the end of Sura 9, the last sura revealed in Medina. The evidence presented here incontrovertibly removes these human injections, restores the Quran to its pristine purity, and illustrates a major funtion of the Quran's mathematical code, namely, to protect the Quran from the slightest tampering or even major tampering. Surah 9 should include only 29 verses. Verses 30 to 129 were added 19 years after the prophet?s death. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered, as evidenced by his protest which is documented in many classic references (classic references agree with the code and therefore are not to be confused with classic satanic Hadiths references)
`Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."
The mischievous scribes seeing that the Quran was getting heavier, decided to remove verses to compensate for the ones they added and to balance things out. Unfortunately, because ?Ali couldn?t go out of his house in his pajamas to stop them as evidenced by the above classic reference, 19 months later, the scribes were going crazy and adding and deleting verses all over the place. Pretty soon, none of chapters remained intact. For example, Surah 2 should have 1024 verses according to Nun?s checksum method and they reduced it to 286, while chapter 4 should only have 2 verses and so on. Fortunately, the mischievous scribes did not know that we now have Nun?s foolproof checksum method that can?t be replicated by man or machine. Move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart. As Nun said, the checksum method proves the structure/symmetry of the uncorrupted Quran as we see below
60 Even verses = 30 even-even + 30 odd-even
54 Odd verses = 27 odd-odd + 27 even-oddSurah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 3556480334958..........18..........76..........76..........
59..........74..........133....................133
60..........13..........73....................73
61..........14..........75....................75
62..........71..........133....................133
63..........13..........76..........76..........
64..........20..........84..........84..........
65..........12..........77....................77
66..........10..........76..........76..........
67..........28..........95....................95
68..........54..........122..........122..........
69..........2..........71....................71
70..........44..........114..........114..........
71..........30..........101....................101
72..........42..........114..........114..........
73..........20..........93....................93
74..........40..........114..........114..........
75..........10..........85....................85
76..........19..........95....................95
77..........20..........97....................97
78..........36..........114..........114..........
79..........58..........137....................137
80..........34..........114..........114..........
81..........13..........94..........94..........
82..........23..........105....................105
83..........34..........117....................117
84..........23..........107....................107
85..........26..........111....................111
86..........11..........97....................97
87..........21..........108..........108..........
88..........24..........112..........112..........
89..........26..........115....................115
90..........12..........102..........102..........
91..........23..........114..........114..........
92..........19..........111....................111
93..........21..........114..........114..........
94..........2..........96..........96..........
95..........38..........133....................133
96..........7..........103....................103
97..........1..........98..........98..........
98..........10..........108..........108..........
99..........2..........101....................101
100..........1..........101....................101
101..........9..........110..........110..........
102..........10..........112..........112..........
103..........1..........104..........104..........
104..........1..........105....................105
105..........9..........114..........114..........
106..........8..........114..........114..........
107..........1..........108..........108..........
108..........1..........109....................109
109..........2..........111....................111
110..........23..........133....................133
111..........1..........112..........112..........
112..........6..........118..........118..........
113..........3..........116..........116..........
114..........38..........152..........152..........58-114............6034.......3110.......2924 <-------- middle checksum 2nd half
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996Totals 1-114
6555.......6236.....12791...6236.....6555 <-------- last checksum totals
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
12791 is a prime number as is 19!
Not only did Nun?s checksum method restore the structure/symmetry of the Quran, it pointed out some additional miraculous properties. For example, please note that the chapters marked in bold when restored are divisible by 19. Even more astonishing is the fact that the number of chapters divided by 19 within each symmetric checksum grouping is also 19!
In fact, put the checksums side by side and the beautiful inimitable superhuman symmetry becomes apparent
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd 19 Surah#.......... Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd 19 Surah#
1..........75..........76..........76....................1....................58..........18..........76..........76....................58
2..........1024..........1026..........1026....................2....................59..........74..........133....................133..........59
3..........390..........393....................393.......... -....................60..........13..........73....................73.......... -
4..........2..........6..........6.................... -....................61..........14..........75....................75.......... -
5..........52..........57....................57..........5....................62..........71..........133....................133..........62
6..........51..........57....................57..........6....................63..........13..........76..........76....................63
7..........402..........409....................409.......... -....................64..........20..........84..........84.................... -
8..........5..........13....................13.......... -....................65..........12..........77....................77.......... -
9..........29..........38..........38....................9....................66..........10..........76..........76....................66
10..........9..........19....................19..........10....................67..........28..........95....................95..........67
11..........9..........20..........20.................... -....................68..........54..........122..........122.................... -
12..........135..........147....................147.......... -....................69..........2..........71....................71.......... -
13..........215..........228..........228....................13....................70..........44..........114..........114....................70
14..........4..........18..........18.................... -....................71..........30..........101....................101.......... -
15..........23..........38..........38....................15....................72..........42..........114..........114....................72
16..........20..........36..........36.................... -....................73..........20..........93....................93.......... -
17..........21..........38..........38....................17....................74..........40..........114..........114....................74
18..........10..........28..........28.................... -....................75..........10..........85....................85.......... -
19..........76..........95....................95..........19....................76..........19..........95....................95..........76
20..........177..........197....................197.......... -....................77..........20..........97....................97.......... -
21..........36..........57....................57..........21....................78..........36..........114..........114....................78
22..........28..........50..........50.................... -....................79..........58..........137....................137.......... -
23..........110..........133....................133..........23....................80..........34..........114..........114....................80
24..........10..........34..........34.................... -....................81..........13..........94..........94.................... -
25..........7..........32..........32.................... -....................82..........23..........105....................105.......... -
26..........443..........469....................469.......... -....................83..........34..........117....................117.......... -
27..........107..........134..........134.................... -....................84..........23..........107....................107.......... -
28..........104..........132..........132.................... -....................85..........26..........111....................111.......... -
29..........69..........98..........98.................... -....................86..........11..........97....................97.......... -
30..........58..........88..........88.................... -....................87..........21..........108..........108.................... -
31..........2..........33....................33.......... -....................88..........24..........112..........112.................... -
32..........18..........50..........50.................... -....................89..........26..........115....................115.......... -
33..........63..........96..........96.................... -....................90..........12..........102..........102.................... -
34..........80..........114..........114....................34....................91..........23..........114..........114....................91
35..........25..........60..........60.................... -....................92..........19..........111....................111.......... -
36..........21..........57....................57..........36....................93..........21..........114..........114....................93
37..........86..........123....................123.......... -....................94..........2..........96..........96.................... -
38..........76..........114..........114....................38....................95..........38..........133....................133..........95
39..........81..........120..........120.................... -....................96..........7..........103....................103.......... -
40..........95..........135....................135.......... -....................97..........1..........98..........98.................... -
41..........62..........103....................103.......... -....................98..........10..........108..........108.................... -
42..........33..........75....................75.......... -....................99..........2..........101....................101.......... -
43..........55..........98..........98.................... -....................100..........1..........101....................101.......... -
44..........3..........47....................47.......... -....................101..........9..........110..........110.................... -
45..........71..........116..........116.................... -....................102..........10..........112..........112.................... -
46..........85..........131....................131.......... -....................103..........1..........104..........104.................... -
47..........46..........93....................93.......... -....................104..........1..........105....................105.......... -
48..........9..........57....................57..........48....................105..........9..........114..........114....................105
49..........8..........57....................57..........49....................106..........8..........114..........114....................106
50..........37..........87....................87.......... -....................107..........1..........108..........108.................... -
51..........64..........115....................115.......... -....................108..........1..........109....................109.......... -
52..........65..........117....................117.......... -....................109..........2..........111....................111.......... -
53..........80..........133....................133..........53....................110..........23..........133....................133..........110
54..........17..........71....................71.......... -....................111..........1..........112..........112.................... -
55..........96..........151....................151.......... -....................112..........6..........118..........118.................... -
56..........68..........124..........124.................... -....................113..........3..........116..........116.................... -
57..........57..........114..........114....................57....................114..........38..........152..........152....................1141-57 Total number of chapters divisible by 19 = 19
58-114 Total number of chapters divisible by 19 = 19
Totals 1-114 19 +19 = 38 = 19x2
Even more amazing is the fact that when you add the chapter numbers of the 19 divisible chapters for each checksum group the result is also 19 divisible
1-57
1+2+5+6+9+10+13+15+17+19+21+23+34+36+38+48+49+53+57= 456 = 19 x 2458-114
58+59+62+63+66+67+70+72+74+76+78+80+91+93+95+105+106+110+114 = 1539 = 19 x 81Totals 1-114
1+2+5+6+9+......+106+110+114 = 1995 = 19 x 105
So the symmetry is not only in the Checksum but also in the chapters divisible by 19 and the total of the chapter numbers in each symmetric group of checksum.
Now instead of adding the chapter numbers and dividing by 19, place the chapter number totals in a checksum as Nun did above. The result is also a multiple of 19!
456 1539 1995 = 19 x 2400810105
In fact, order the checksum of the totals any way you want and the result will always be 19 divisible!
1995 456 1539 = 19 x 1050240081
1539 1995 456 = 19 x 810105024
1995 1539 456 = 19 x 1050081024
456 1995 1539 = 19 x 2401050081
456 1539 1995 = 19 x 2400810105
1539 456 1995 = 19 x 810240105
Again, move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart. Simple to understand, impossible to imitate.
As proven by the physical evidence above, such mathematical composition is far beyond human capabilities. The slightest violation of God's Final Testament is destined to stand out in glaring disharmony. As Nun said, move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart.
The above code would rule out human authorship because it is beyond our intelligence (keep in mind though that the bar for intelligence is set pretty low based on how easily the majority of people here are attracted and mesmerized by such ?codes? and accordingly believe in their significance and relevance as signs).
In summary, if such codes prove they are beyond us and our current level of earthly intelligence, then they must be made by some pretty dumb aliens.
http//www.freesmileys.org/smileys/alien011.gif
But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
Peace,
Ayman
-
AYMAN But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
EDIP First, you are distorting the fact. You wish people think that we do not read and appreciate the Quran. To the contrary, we have risked our lives for the message of the Quran, the whole Quran! We appreciate every letter and word of the Quran. So, stop resorting to this cheap propaganda. Appreciation of the numerical structure and a great prophecy of the Quran does not and should not stop one from reading and following the Quran. To the contrary, such a great sign and prophecy compels us to take every letter of the Quran seriously.
Those who read the Quran will know that it mentions Nineteen in the context of its authenticity in a prophetic language. You read it but ignore it!
AYMAN How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
EDP You are just making up. If you are not then tell us what are the number of letters and words in the Quran. Provide us with your evidence!
As brother Zidane eloquently put "- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light."
The Quran starts exactly with 19 letters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It has exactly 114 chapters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It talks about hypocrites who cannot understand the number 19, and we learned about it after 18 of your trials!
We discovered 19 in chapter 74 after 18 of your trials!
We learned that the chapter starts with the word al-Muddatthir, that is the Hidden One, just after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that the first complete statement of the same chapter has 19 letters, just after 18 of your trials!
We further learned that the numerical values of those 19 letters equals exactly to 1974, just after 18 of your trials!
We discovered that the juxtaposition of 19 and the chapter number 74 would exactly produce 1974, the time of the discovery, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that multiplying 19 by the chapter number 74 would produce 1406 and that was exactly the number of lunar years between the year of revelation and 1974, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that the root of the name of the discoverer, RaSHaDa, is mentioned exactly 19 times in the Quran, again after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that out of those 19 occurrences the form RaShaD is mentioned twice and they are separated by the only vers in the Quran rejecting the claims of disbelievers regarding finality of messengership. Again, we learned this after 18 of your trials!
We have learned hundreds of signs and Quranic facts, all after 18 of your trials!....I will not continue debating with you in detail here, since I have already exposed the problems with your argument numerous times in writing and they are posted at 19.org.
Back to the Quran being called Great Reading... You are again covering the whole truth, since the Quran has numerous attributes, one of them being ZIKR and the other being Kitabun Marqum, that is, Numerical Book.. In our upcoming oral debate, the falsehood will be exposed conclusively, by God's will. Wait, and we are too waiting. God is Sari-ul Hisab!
-
Peace Edip,
AYMAN But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
EDIP First, you are distorting the fact. You wish people think that we do not read and appreciate the Quran. To the contrary, we have risked our lives for the message of the Quran, the whole Quran! We appreciate every letter and word of the Quran. So, stop resorting to this cheap propaganda. Appreciation of the numerical structure and a great prophecy of the Quran does not and should not stop one from reading and following the Quran. To the contrary, such a great sign and prophecy compels us to take every letter of the Quran seriously.I didn't say that you didn't read the great reading and appreciated it. I said that you appreciate the code MORE. For someone who teaches logic, you should know the difference. I try to choose my words very carefully so you should also try to read them carefully.
In your response, YOU ACTUALLY CONFIRMED WHAT I SAID. You said that it is such codes that compel you to take every letter of the great reading seriously. So without such codes or based on reading alone you wouldn't take the great reading as seriously. So indeed you are confirming that you appreciate the code more than the reading.
Those who read the Quran will know that it mentions Nineteen in the context of its authenticity in a prophetic language. You read it but ignore it!
Come on Edip, where is your professional logic? The first time you read "Nineteen" did you know that it is in the context of the great reading's authenticity? Or did you come to this conclusion after countless trials and errors and the removal of 9128-129 and then building circular arguments?
AYMAN How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
EDP You are just making up. If you are not then tell us what are the number of letters and words in the Quran. Provide us with your evidence!I don't have to provide anything. Since you are not advertizing those obvious trials then I know that RK, you or any of the Code 19 hunters have tried them and failed to get a 19 divisible. The same goes for the following trials, which I know you or RK tried but are mute about because they failed
Trial 1 Test if the number of words in Chapter 9 without the 2 verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 2 Test if the total number of letters in Chapter 9 without the 2 verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 3 Test if the count of the word GOD in Chapter 9 without the two verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 4 Test if the sum of all the verse numbers where the word GOD occurs in Chapter 9 without the two verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 5 Test if the count of the word "raheem" from the missing Basmalah (Sura 9) to the extra Basmalah (Sura 27) is divisible by 19.
etc... etc...If you add up all your failures and compare the number of your successes to your failures, you will see that the ratio is 118, which is the natural ratio of random occurrences of 19 multiples.
As brother Zidane eloquently put "- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light."
This is just a typical example of the kind of ignorance that leads people to be fascinated by such numerology. You can't use trial and error in pattern recognition problems without capturing the failed trials and comparing the ratio of success to failure to a specific benchmark. Also, Thomas Edison didn't use trial and error and then hid all his failed trials and claimed that he got a light bulb on the first trial. Also, he didn't really use trial and error. For instance, he didn't try to throw some tungsten at a fire and see if a light bulb would come out the other end. He only varied limited parameters within a systematic method. Also, once he got the successful trial, he went back to the method and refined it and made it repeatable. On the other hand, NONE of the methods of code 19 is repeatable and this is why RK never uses the same method twice. He got 19 divisibles not because there is a pattern but because he was constantly changing the method. He changed the method when he got failed trials using the same method.
The Quran starts exactly with 19 letters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It has exactly 114 chapters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It talks about hypocrites who cannot understand the number 19, and we learned about it after 18 of your trials!
We discovered 19 in chapter 74 after 18 of your trials!
We learned that the chapter starts with the word al-Muddatthir, that is the Hidden One, just after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that the first complete statement of the same chapter has 19 letters, just after 18 of your trials!
We further learned that the numerical values of those 19 letters equals exactly to 1974, just after 18 of your trials!
We discovered that the juxtaposition of 19 and the chapter number 74 would exactly produce 1974, the time of the discovery, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that multiplying 19 by the chapter number 74 would produce 1406 and that was exactly the number of lunar years between the year of revelation and 1974, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that the root of the name of the discoverer, RaSHaDa, is mentioned exactly 19 times in the Quran, again after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that out of those 19 occurrences the form RaShaD is mentioned twice and they are separated by the only vers in the Quran rejecting the claims of disbelievers regarding finality of messengership. Again, we learned this after 18 of your trials!
We have learned hundreds of signs and Quranic facts, all after 18 of your trials!....
I will not continue debating with you in detail here, since I have already exposed the problems with your argument numerous times in writing and they are posted at 19.org.Are you trying to say that RK and you NEVER had a SINGLE FAILED TRIAL? If so, then clearly, you are lying.
Back to the Quran being called Great Reading... You are again covering the whole truth, since the Quran has numerous attributes, one of them being ZIKR and the other being Kitabun Marqum, that is, Numerical Book.. In our upcoming oral debate, the falsehood will be exposed conclusively, by God's will. Wait, and we are too waiting. God is Sari-ul Hisab!
I look forward to it. )
Peace,
Ayman
-
@ Supernaut
peace,There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't. And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.
I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.
My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that. I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine. As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities. We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men. The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
And I use the term "god" loosely because I'm not sure what God is or if there even is a God. -
Peace Ayman,
Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6657.....3026......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6657 3026 3631 IS NOT divisible by 19 with remainder = 18
Neither are
6657 3631 3026
3631 3026 6657
3631 6657 3026
3026 3631 6657
3026 6657 3631Although I'm sure you knew that already.
Peace
-
Peace,
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't.
That is a logical fallacy.
And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
I agree that a code in a book that had nonsense in it would be meaningless, but if the reading - which I have faith is a lucid scripture - had a code, the code would be meaningful.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.
True.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.
That is true, but a creature that could appreciate the signs in the universe and conclude that a god exists from them would also be able to appreciate a code in the reading if such a code existed.
My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.I think a superhuman code in the reading would be part and parcel of it. It wouldn't exist independent of the reading because then it wouldn't be the reading's code.
Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that.
No, I think it does (1037, 482, 299, 33, 2110 and many, many more verses). However, the deity didn't write the reading (67), the way it engraved the Torah on tablets (7144-145), and I think the reason why the deity wrote the Torah down for Moses and Aaron and their people is that they didn't have the time or resources to write it down themselves, while Mohamed and his followers did.
I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine.
The deity tells us that It "sent down" the reading, but that It didn't write it down. It was Gabriel who transmitted the reading to Mohamed by the deity's permission (16102).
As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
Something divine would have to be entirely free of contradictions and nonsense, and I have faith the reading is. The deity tells us the reading has no contradictions in it in 482.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities.
Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
Yes, but the deity's better at being merciful and creating good messages (I just imagined the deity typing a mobile phone text message P) and the deity knows everything.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.
No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men.
But sent down by the deity.
The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
I agree.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
But a code would help us accept the truth.
-
Peace Nun,
Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?
Hey, all I did was use your nonsensical Checksum method. You knowingly posted your deception first. At least I made it clear that I was joking.
By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...
But I didn't only change Chapter 9. I changed all chapters and still got the same exact Checksum as you did. Just paste my calculations in Excel or something. In fact, you don't even need to do that. Just take out 100 verses from Chapter 9 and add them to any other even chapter such as Chapter 11. So now Chapter 9 has 29 verses while Chapter 11 has 223 new verses and your Checksum is EXACTLY the same.
Here, I will use your table below
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........223..........234..........234...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 IS divisible by 19 with remainder = 0Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
If you were not joking then your statement "even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart" is not just false, it is probably the dumbest thing I heard on the subject of Code 19 (and believe me, over the years, I heard lots of dumb things on this subject). I hope that you were joking or this was a momentary lapse of reason and you will humbly see the truth and not continue down this slippery slope. I am sorry to be so hard on you but this is so obvious that at this stage you are really in no position to argue.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Supernaut
I never make logical fallacies. Never!
As long as you don't know who sent something to you, you have a host of possible senders. Aliens could be one of them. That's what I meant.
Anyway that's not important anymore...So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith. Those holes shouldn't be there.
No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have. In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false. You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood. It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws. -
Peace Lobster,
So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Yes, but what if you had reason, albeit not so good, to doubt what you were very sure of? You can't deny that every intelligent and sceptical human does doubt what they believe in from time to time. Only when we doubt what we know and question our faith do we actually learn more about it and develop a better understanding of what we already know about it.
I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Those holes shouldn't be there.I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have.
We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
I agree.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false.
Our belief in something and our doubts in that belief have zero bearing on the reality of that thing. Suppose I doubted that the sky is blue, now my doubt in my belief that the sky is blue wouldn't mean that the sky isn't blue.
You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood.
Well I pray I reach such a stage in an intelligent way. Many people believe in things because they suppress their reason. Sunnis and Shias assuage their doubts with obsessive-compulsive rituals, but a true muslim would clear away most of their doubts by learning, and because it's not possible to learn everything, a true muslim would always strive to improve their understanding by learning more.
It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws.I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.