Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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I can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses
Ayman
Peace Ayman
I was waiting long time for such claimI can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses
This is very important for me and many others searching for truth.
Please stay away from mocking and joking and show me a complete chapter with real meaning of your verses with real meaning and equal Rhymed style as GR to be approved by Edip and others know Arabic.You do not have to add . Just produce one like it
Number of verses should be 7 or higher. This gives you a chance that your first design (number one ) followed by 1234567 would interlock automatically to code 19 at list you have one but copied.
Now remind you the pattern would be
Chapter number followed by- Number of verse followed number of letters in first verse followed by numerical text.
- Number of verse followed number of letters in second verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in third verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in fourth verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in fifth verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in sixth verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in seventh verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in seventh verse followed by numerical text followed by number of letters used to design.
http//creatorsignature.com/7key.jpg
I think consistency in above can satisfy your expectation toward code.
If you do above it would be enough and I am not asking to find if your work has following INTERLOCKS too.
http//y19.net/7inchp1.html
http//y19.net/666197.html
I would response to second part of your post ?Interlock? in another post.
Now your reputation is INTERLOCKED into your claim. )
Peace -
Peace
I don't think that to be intrigued by is not the same as worshiping.
code 19 is interesting. The 4 seasons are interesting. the ocean is interesting. Bees are interesting. But to find them interesting is not the same as worshiping.
I think the issue of 19 has been taken too seriously by some. Those who fault it and those who follow it alike.
peace
Peace everyone,
It is called the Fibonacci pattern or the Golden Ratio
http//www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm
http//britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Fibonacci_numbers_in_nature
http//www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html
http//www.math.uiuc.edu/~gfrancis/math306/math306web/GoldenRatioPeteWintermute.htm
Because we are asked to ponder on God's creation in al-quran, and we are told that God's signs are present in the horizons and within us, we should also make the "Fibonacci Numbers" and "Golden Ratio" our new gods and start worshipping them too in addition to 19. hail
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Peace nimnimak,
My comment was directed towards those who do worship it and make it a partner with God and abrogate God's verses with it.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
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Peace nimnimak,
My comment was directed towards those who do worship it and make it a partner with God and abrogate God's verses with it.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
Peace Truthseeker
I apologise to you for assuming that you directed your comment at anyone who accepts 19 as a pattern in the Quran.
I am not 100% sure but at this stage i do think that the last two verses of chapter 9 were additions or were not meant to be there. i think that the meaning of God preserving the scripture varies with the method of how God preserves the scripture. One of those ways that God has preserved the scripture I believe at the moment is via 19.
The way i currently see it
The missing basmallah in chap9 could imply that something about it is different. Just as the 2 basmallahs in chap 27 imply something about it is slightly different or significant.
so i think 2 bismallahs have been deliberately used in 27 to compensate for the missing one in 9 so that the 114 count remains correct. The new question which arises is why would the 114 count be kept??
after taking into account code 19 the first question about why the 114 count is kept is answered.
another question that occures to me is why this should be done when each chapter could have been given a bismallah each just like the others.
BUT 19 does not answer the second question unless we CONCLUDE or DECIDE or maybe ASSUME after looking at it's effects that the taking out of the last 2 verses of chap9 COULD be the answer to the second question
But i find the effects very interesting such as the frequency of the word Allah and other things fitting with 19 to the extent that i would call it not a coincidence. This thus also answers why chap9 has a missing bismalla.
Bear in mind that these are not random surahs in chapter 9. They are the LAST TWO which make such a difference.
We could all be totally wrong though -) but I would always like to be closer to the truth and at the moment this appears to be it.
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Peace everyone,
The above remark by Bahman shows ignorance of what code 19 implies. By zero evidence I mean evidence showing occurrence of code 19 more than the random statistical probability of 119 using a constant methodology. Ayman is right that the 19'ers hide their failed attempts which would bring the occurrence of code 19 to the 119 implied by statistical probability.
As far as last 2 verses of chapter 9 are concerned, if they were an addition to al-quran then 4142 is falsified and al-quran cannot be the word of God
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
I have faith in al-quran and I don't take code 19 as God's partner, so I have 100 % faith that no one was able to inject false verses in it despite their attempts.
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Lobster,
I don't think 2130 and 5147 are metaphorical because I think the easiest way to understand them is to understand them to be about the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe respectively. I think the idea that the reading has many, many metaphorical verses is off-putting and untenable.
I hope the accident you were in wasn't serious and I'm glad you have a positive attitude about it.
Peace Supernaut,
I don't think it is off-putting at all. I guess we're two different people, then.
I just think that the knowledge of the big bang doesn't help us in anyway in our daily life. But it could very well be talking about it. If it is, then we have to assume that this was common knowledge for the people back then. Not God trying to prove that he exists.And my accident wasn't serious. My car got totalled but I was fine, except for some serious carpet burn on my right arm from the airbag/seatbelt.
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Salaam Nimnimak,
If, constantly promoting the 19credo, carrying the 19avatar, and referring to the person who discovered the 19 code as 'the Messenger', and above all campaigning to remove 2 ayat from the Quran because they don't fit the 19 pattern, making code 19 a driving force is not about being a sect ?
There is a purpose in every sign of God hail
Peace Sister Farida and God bless you
To be honest there have been times where i thought Bro Edip has been taking 19 too far specially after hearing the date of the debate 19th of OCT.
Upon reading the date i smiled thinking that's so predictable of Bro Edip. But upon reading about his reasons in which one stood out for me in this thread i realised in this case my assumtion was clearly wrong and it even lead me to think that this arranged date is POSSIBLY God's intervention or will with respect to how one of Edip's reasons unfolded. I'm not saying i believe that this is 100% God's intervention but i'm just viewing it as a possiblity.
As for his avatar i don't think that to have a 19 based avatar is an implication of follwing a sort of 19er sect. I think that in this case both bros Ayman and Edip have made their avatars something that they have great interest in. This though in my mind does not make it a sect Sister Farida.
If Bro Edip in his daily life was someone who thought for example
(Edip looks at his watch and thinks)
The time is now 1919 thus something special must happen. Then i would agree with you completely Sister for he has no solid reason to have such a style of thinking and that this style is wrong with respect to the reasoning and intellect given to him by his creator. Thus possibly it can be classified as shirk.To be honest i gave that story because something similar happened to me ;D it was as if i was being tested. I looked at my watch at night and it was 1919 and i though that this means that something good is going to happen. laugh
But i realised i was wrong and that I was thinking contrary to the style of thinking or reasoning that my creator had blessed me with.
peace peace
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so i think 2 bismallahs have been deliberately used in 27 to compensate for the missing one in 9 so that the 114 count remains correct. The new question which arises is why would the 114 count be kept??
Salaam nimnimak_11
(what does the 11 in your name stand for BTW? I often look at my watch and there's an eleven minutes or hour. As I started this post, it was 1100).Back to my post. The bismillah you call (a compensation to complete the count of 114) is actually completely different from the other 113 bismillahs. The 113 ones introduce God's speech, and the "compensator" introduces a human speech. So you cannot equate them and add oranges to apples.
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Peace Bahman,
Please stay away from mocking and joking and show me a complete chapter with real meaning of your verses with real meaning and equal Rhymed style as GR to be approved by Edip and others know Arabic.
Edip and you claim that the initials don't have real meaning and they are just added to complete the code. So if according to you, the god can add meaningless gibberish to complete the code then why can't I do the same and make a more impressive code than yours?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Anthony,
Unfortunately, many 19ers falsely quote this "over it is 19" part in isolation to imply that "over it is 19" refers to the great reading and a bunch of other things (the golden ratio, etc...). They take advantage of naive English speakers who will not verify the information and look in the original text to see that in Arabic there is no gender neutral "it" and the passage actually has "3alayha" which literally means "over her" and the Arabic word "quran" is masculine while "saqar"/scorcherer/fire is feminine. So "over it" is actually refering to nothing but the hellfire.
Peace,
Ayman
Yea, thats what I thought. And thanks for pointen out the other info. I do not find were quran says over the quran is 19. But, to my understanding is over the scorcher is 19.
peace
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Peace Lobster,
If it is, then we have to assume that this was common knowledge for the people back then. Not God trying to prove that he exists.
I disagree because the reading is meant for our generation too. Perhaps those verses are meant more for us than they were for Mohamed's contemporaries the same way certain verses were meant for them only and not for us, verses like 492 and 336. Furthermore, 4153 states that the god will manifest Its signs in the horizons and within ourselves until people realize that the reading is the truth. Many of the signs that the god has manifested and that the reading mentions strengthen my belief in the reading.
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Peace Bahman,
Your number has 274 digits and is multiple of 19. I can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses and make it a far more impressive 418 (19x22) digits multiple of 19
1919191919191919191919191919191919191995153945638573845617119260401303051302008405013020081040217130
8404303052002130703040105031213020084050130200810404114030201064013041050519110120507024611012050604
0070105061815450113090200913040604001001040743902009130700105015070404007030105401000102001304010008
0062703010540630113080013010504566757312636313857386555623665551279131106034292419191919191919191919
191919191919191919Notice that not only my code is longer than yours but my chapter starts and ends with sets of initials which "interlock" rotfl the chapter on both ends so it is more "secure" and your claim collapsed more easily than Nun's.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
I was expecting better than this from a mathematic PHD holder (The problem with you and many others regardless how much you are knowledgeable can not understand INTERLOCK.
The simplest interlock can vbe seen by a lever cntered on a pivot.At the time we can have only one up and one down . So 2 ends of lever are INTERLOCKED. Hallway light switch at 2 ends are interlocked electrically when they can not be on in same time.
Key using any lock is combination of several interlocks avoids an manipulation. Passwords used in any place is Electronic Interlocks which not other one can use it.Now we witness how such interlock is used in GR for securing parts of it and GW in future we find all methods by trail and error when we do not know the formula like location of universes and stars.
Such geometrical interlock using 19 numbers of 1-19 and any direction adding the numbers is 38 multiple of 19. Took 40 years trail and took 4 years to find the formula.
http//www.comm.utoronto.ca/~frank/hexagon/hex.gifI have done some work for interlocking first verse which has 19 letters.
http//y19.net/hexcode.htm
One of the most numerical interlock can be witnessed in GR by placing ?The Key? with 7 verses as first chapter with 7 verses. Writing
1 1234567
this number is automatically interlocked even without code 19 as
chapter one verse 1 verse 2 ?..verse7 any change will destroy sequence of numbers which display as indexing for chapter one.
But amazing is that it is multiple of 19
Then counting number of letters in each verse and replace verse number with those verse number
1 19, 17 1,2 11, 19 1,8 43 .
Here you notice another INTERLOCK which mean no other pattern motile of 19 can secure the verses as the above pattern has done.
You can add so many numbers at the end and start but they none sense and wasting time when you can not touch the above INTERLOCK
Up to now we witnessed only numbers but next level is using total of values of each letter( text like alief=a=1) in each verse. For example first verse has 19 letters
http//y19.net/fact_files/frame.htm
an total of those letter is = 786http//www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enCA211CA211&q=786
and so on
1,978,617,581,126,181,124,119,836,181,072,436,009
using your cad you will find this 38 digits can have many othe pattern multiple of 19 by adding every 19 times but none of them can have interlock to verse property.
There is solid INTERLOCK securing the phrase with its lettervalue properties in the place each verse has been layout.
No probability fits the design.
But the only way would be done is reversing whole pattern
6,009 ,43 1,072 ,18 8,36 1,9 24,1 11, 6,18 1,258,117,786,191
and this reminds me recent amazing finding of Hati writing whole chapter reverse is in digits is multiple of 19 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596880.msg175000#msg175000
http//creatorsignature.com/keyhati.jpgHere we witness how multi interlock is securing whole chapter from any manipulation .
Hence further discovery displays whole chapter in the consistent order as shown above cases interlocks
http//creatorsignature.com/7key.jpg
chapter number
verse number,
total of letters in each verse
followed by every single letter values
INTERLOCKED
Into
Code 19
Nothing can be added or be deducted.
I hope this could result a reconsideration by those that have doubt in Miracle .
Discoveries with no interlock which can be manipulated has no value.
And code 19 is only for GR text.
Peace. -
Peace Lobster,
I disagree because the reading is meant for our generation too. Perhaps those verses are meant more for us than they were for Mohamed's contemporaries the same way certain verses were meant for them only and not for us, verses like 492 and 336. Furthermore, 4153 states that the god will manifest Its signs in the horizons and within ourselves until people realize that the reading is the truth. Many of the signs that the god has manifested and that the reading mentions strengthen my belief in the reading.
Peace
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Peace Lobster,
I disagree because the reading is meant for our generation too. Perhaps those verses are meant more for us than they were for Mohamed's contemporaries the same way certain verses were meant for them only and not for us, verses like 492 and 336. Furthermore, 4153 states that the god will manifest Its signs in the horizons and within ourselves until people realize that the reading is the truth. Many of the signs that the god has manifested and that the reading mentions strengthen my belief in the reading.
But then that would mean there are verses in the quran that we will never understand. And if what you're saying is true then it seems like the point of the quran is to prove that the quran is true.
I just don't see it the way you do. To me something is either true or false. If I verify it to be true then that is reason enough for me to believe in it and it is the only reason I will believe in it. It's that simple - there's nothing else needed.
So to me it doesn't matter where the quran has come from. It could've been written by monkeys for all I care. What matters is whether what it says is true or not, and whether I can get useful lessons out of it. That's it. -
But then that would mean there are verses in the quran that we will never understand.
I did not say that. All I'm saying is that the more humans learn about the natural world, the more they learn about the god and the reading, and I think you'll agree with me.
And if what you're saying is true then it seems like the point of the quran is to prove that the quran is true.
You can't infer just that from what I said. For you to believe the reading in its entirety, you need to believe that it comes from the god, and so the god's put stuff in the reading that helps us believe that its from the god.
I just don't see it the way you do. To me something is either true or false. If I verify it to be true then that is reason enough for me to believe in it and it is the only reason I will believe in it. It's that simple - there's nothing else needed.
But what will help you determine if something is true or false? I suppose you ignore what you can't determine to be true or false. That approach will never satisfy me though.
So to me it doesn't matter where the quran has come from. It could've been written by monkeys for all I care. What matters is whether what it says is true or not, and whether I can get useful lessons out of it. That's it.
You and I do indeed see things differently. I have the need to believe that the reading did indeed come from the god, and for that reason I pay close attention to verses from the reading that prove it came from an all-knowing god.
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Peace Anthony,
Unfortunately, many 19ers falsely quote this "over it is 19" part in isolation to imply that "over it is 19" refers to the great reading and a bunch of other things (the golden ratio, etc...). They take advantage of naive English speakers who will not verify the information and look in the original text to see that in Arabic there is no gender neutral "it" and the passage actually has "3alayha" which literally means "over her" and the Arabic word "quran" is masculine while "saqar"/scorcherer/fire is feminine. So "over it" is actually refering to nothing but the hellfire.For those who would like to see the hadith-sunna-based distortions made on verses of chapter 74 in opposition to 20114, please see my exposition titled Which one do you see Hell or Miracle? at
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0
No wonder Ayman cannot witness Quran's great signs His eyes and mind are clouded with the smoke of Hellfiire, "Nothing but Hellfire!"
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Anthony,
Unfortunately, many 19ers falsely quote this "over it is 19" part in isolation to imply that "over it is 19" refers to the great reading and a bunch of other things (the golden ratio, etc...). They take advantage of naive English speakers who will not verify the information and look in the original text to see that in Arabic there is no gender neutral "it" and the passage actually has "3alayha" which literally means "over her" and the Arabic word "quran" is masculine while "saqar"/scorcherer/fire is feminine. So "over it" is actually refering to nothing but the hellfire.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Edip
Can you please react right away on Ayman's claim above. I have read your article, which is incorporated in the Reformist Translation; what I need to know if what is supposed to be there is an IT, HE or SHE.
Thanks.
ramon O0
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Salam Edip, all
I could not resist commenting on this linguistic error that lead to a translation error
This is what I read in the link
7435 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).
7436 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).
the translation is verily (to those who like to translate inna) It is one of the kubar (plural of the feminine adjective kubra biggest).
"It" is feminine. It clearly points back to "sagar hell", already mentioned in verse 26, and then again in verse 42. The other "biggest" are the different hells (and are all feminine nouns). I cannot find another word for "number" that is feminine. Moreover, the theme is not the (ninteen that are over saqar) but saqar itself.
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Peace sister Samia,
I could not resist commenting on this linguistic error that lead to a translation error
This is what I read in the link7435 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).
7436 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).the translation is verily (to those who like to translate inna) It is one of the kubar (plural of the feminine adjective kubra biggest).
"It" is feminine. It clearly points back to "sagar hell", already mentioned in verse 26, and then again in verse 42. The other "biggest" are the different hells (and are all feminine nouns). I cannot find another word for "number" that is feminine. Moreover, the theme is not the (ninteen that are over saqar) but saqar itself.
Thank you sister for your excellent observation.
The word ?nazeer? can mean both ?warning? and ?warner? in Arabic. So when the messenger is a ?nazeer?, in this case a ?warner?, the messenger is warning about something. This something is always hell or punishment. In 2119; 519; 519; 7184; 7188; 112; 1112; 1125; 1589; 17105; 251; 257; 2551; 2556; 26115; 2846; 2950; 323; 3345; 3428; 3434; 3444; 3446; 3523; 3524; 3524; 3537; 3542; 3542; 3870; 414; 4323; 469; 488; 5150; 5151; 5356; 678; 679; 6717; 6726; 712, the warning is never about a Code 19. For example
5356 talks about the warning and then immediately refers to the coming of hell.
4621 talks about ?nuthur? (plural) of the punishment of a great day.
182 the verb form clearly talks about the god warning of a severe punishment.Also, notice that in several of those passages the term ?nazeer? is accompanied by the term ?basheer? or ?bearing good promises/news?. Of course, the good promises or reward is about heaven, which is the opposite of hell. It is not the opposite of Code 19.
Also, 19ers ignore that in addition to Chapter 74, the same exact word "saqar" is mentioned in another place in Chapter 54. In this chapter, ?the god?s punishment? and the plural form of ?nathira? (?nuthur?) are mentioned together no less than five times in 5416, 21, 30, 37 and 39 and they clearly indicate that the ?warnings? are about a punishment that is tasted not Code 19. So for example, 5436 clearly indicates that warnings/?nuthur? is about punishment not some Code. Passages 5437 and 5439 are quite telling because they talk about tasting the ?punishment and the warnings/"nuthur"?. So the ?warnings? are clearly about a punishment that is tasted not Code 19. 5436 specifically states that the god warned of his PUNISHMENT and that people made fun of those warnings/?nuthur?. So, clearly and indisputably, in Chapter 54, where the other occurrence of ?saqar? is used, the multiple ?nathira?/warnings are about the god?s punishment and not Code 19.
I am certain that the author of Chapter 54 does NOT have his ?eyes and mind clouded with the smoke of Hellfiire, Nothing but Hellfire? as Edip is saying. Mistranslating the god's signs to make them fit his Code 19 was what Dr. Khalifa best at and unfortunately Edip seems to be stuck on following in his footsteps. In fact, if you read every passage in Dr. Khalifa's translation where he proposes that it refers to himself or to Code 19, you will see that they are grossly and systematically mistranslated and even Edip himself has acknowledged Dr. Khalifa's mistranslation of 7431. After all this, they dare claim that he was a messenger.
Peace,
Ayman