All Mighty God?
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Peace Rami,
This is an illogical concept. GOD initiated creation, and that means He has always been in existence, even before existence itself. And that means that GOD created the objects and the forces that are applied today, including time and space. If GOD created time and space, then how can He be subject to them? That's illogical. If GOD controls time, then He can move forward or backward through time periods, knowing and controlling the future.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Ahmad,
This is a bit inaccurate. There is no such thing as Time as you understand. It is only changes in matter. If you want to go back in Time literally, you have to rewind matter to the state at that time ie. a new creation altogether.Peace.
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Peace belal,
Yes because thats God promises and God promises will come true because He will do it!
Peace all
God knew the outcome of all this Life, before we were created
.........(6-59)
With Him are the keys of the Unseen, that none knoweth but He.......59-6
I will give you another Hint
(
Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard-of) thing hast thou done!" (18-74)( (
"As for the youth his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he will grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude. (80) "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange better in purity and closer in affection. (18-81)Look at the previous verse, you will see that God tests us so He can know who revers Him. I thought He knew already. peace
Peace.
We have to be tested so our actions would be counted, in order to earn Heaven or Earn Hillfire.
PeacePeace Rami,
This is an illogical concept. GOD initiated creation, and that means He has always been in existence, even before existence itself. And that means that GOD created the objects and the forces that are applied today, including time and space. If GOD created time and space, then how can He be subject to them? That's illogical. If GOD controls time, then He can move forward or backward through time periods, knowing and controlling the future.
Peace,
Ahmad
bravo
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Peace all
God knew the outcome of all this Life, before we were created
.........(6-59)
With Him are the keys of the Unseen, that none knoweth but He.......59-6
I will give you another Hint
(
Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard-of) thing hast thou done!" (18-74)( (
"As for the youth his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he will grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude. (80) "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange better in purity and closer in affection. (18-81)We have to be tested so our actions would be counted, in order to earn Heaven or Earn Hillfire.
Peacebravo
-The unseen is simply the secrets of the heavens and the earth. Not the future. The proton was a ghayeb to the people of the past. Heaven and Hell are ghayeb. Anything you really didn't see is ghayeb!
-The boy was already wicked but Moses didn't know that so his wickedness was a ghayeb to Moses.
-Still God says 'SO HE KNOWS who reveres Him' God will know who is good and bad not that he knew before hand!Peace.
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-The unseen is simply the secrets of the heavens and the earth. Not the future. The proton was a ghayeb to the people of the past. Heaven and Hell are ghayeb. Anything you really didn't see is ghayeb!
-The boy was already wicked but Moses didn't know that so his wickedness was a ghayeb to Moses.
-Still God says 'SO HE KNOWS who reveres Him' God will know who is good and bad not that he knew before hand!Peace.
We can go on forever in this point; I, myself, believe that God knew every thing before we were created. And the reason I'm saying this is because I experianced seeing futuer events many times in my dreams; thus, I tastify that God knows the Futuer.
Peace -
We can go on forever in this point; I, myself, believe that God knew every thing before we were created. And the reason I'm saying this is because I experianced seeing futuer events many times in my dreams; thus, I tastify that God knows the Futuer.
PeaceSalam Belalhammad,
Excellent point! Many of us have had dreams of future events that came true. We also know of future events being foretold in the Quran (and in other scriptures as well).I'm reminded of Matrix Reloaded
ORACLE .... Candy?
NEO Do you already know if I'm going to take it?
ORACLE Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.
NEO But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
ORACLE Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to understand why you made it. I thought you'd've figured that out by now.
NEO I see Trinity and something happens, something bad. She starts to fall, and then I wake up.
ORACLE Do you see her die?
NEO No.
ORACLE You have the sight now, Neo, you are looking at the world without time.
NEO Then why can't I see what happens to her?
ORACLE We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
NEO Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
ORACLE No. You've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.
Maybe we've already made our choices and we are just here to understand why... or to experience them.... or both
Salam,
Arnab -
Maybe we've already made our choices and we are just here to understand why... or to experience them.... or both
Peace Arnab
(
Yousuf Ali
How can ye reject the faith in Allah? Seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return. (22-We are here in our first life, in which we are making our choices.
sun
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Peace Belalhammad,
Who has told you this? All of GOD's creation has free will, certainly not humans only. The angels have free will, as do the mountains and the entire universe.
Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly." (4111)
The statement "willingly or unwillingly" shows that there was a choice in the matter, and this is even a confirmation of the Torah, which says that certain creations of GOD chose to disobey His commands, and they were either annihilated or they submitted to Him. Indeed, He is most powerful.
Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned? (383)
This verse uses the word "EVERYTHING" instead of "everyone". This shows that all of GOD's creation, even the things we consider inanimate/unliving, have a choice to obey GOD's command, and by their choices they are either rewarded or severely punished. This applies to everything GOD has created.
We have offered the responsibility to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant. (3372)
This verse is also stated in the Torah, and according to the Jews, this is a reference to the Torah itself, and only the nation of Israel was willing to submit to GOD and accept His law; all others were fearful and refused. Regardless, though, we see that the heavens and earth and the mountains all had the choice to bear this great responsibility, and they all were fearful and refused. So, if all these objects and subjects of GOD's creation have the choice to obey or disobey, why do you believe the angels to be any different? Nowhere in the Quran, or in the previous scriptures, will you find that the angels are robots who are forced to obey GOD's commands. They make a choice just like all other forms of His creation, and this is clarified by Satan's rebellion and refusal to pay homage to the man, Adam, after GOD instructed all the angels to do so...
Peace,
Ahmad
Bilal you should learn from your other part i agree witjh Ahmed Bilal peace ;D
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Peace everyone,
God is all knowing.
"Ya3lama" in 594 is usually mistranslated as "will know" but that will cause contradiction with God being "3aleem"/all knowing. "Ya3lama" can also mean "will distinguish" and that is the correct meaning
594 O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will distinguish who reveres Him when unseen. Whoever aggresses after this, then he will have a painful retribution.
God is gathering evidence and distinguishing one from the other for the sake of one's fellow creation (not to know Himself but for the creation to know by distinguishing one from the other) so that the fellow creation cannot say that one's recompense was unfair on the Last Day
3140 If you are wounded, then know that the other group is also wounded. And such are the days, We alternate them between the people, so that God will DISTINGUISH those who believe, and so He may make witnesses from among you; and God does not like the wicked.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Experiment_with_Time
?Dunne's theory, elaborated from years of experiments into precognitive dreams and induced precognitive states, is that in reality all Time is eternally present ie that past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Human consciousness, however, experiences this simultaneity in linear form. Dunne posits that in the dreaming state this way of interpreting Time ceases to be as concrete as when we are awake. Thus we are capable of having what we call precognitive dreams as consciousness finds itself free to roam across past, present and future. From this Dunne posited that we existed on two levels ourselves, both inside and outside Time, thus suggesting the notion of Immortality contained in his later books 'The New Immortality' and 'Nothing Dies'.
The idea that Time (and, by extension, humanity) exists both simultaneously and linearly is a difficult one to grasp. One analogy is that of a book. At any given moment the entirety of a book exists in itself but at any given moment we can only read one page at a time, the other pages, while existing simultaneously with the one we are reading, remaining outside our consciousness. If we could somehow read every page of the book at once, or be able to experience the book in its entirety in a single moment then we would be closer to a real experience of it. Similarly in our lives we are conscious of only one moment in Time, the present, rather than our past, present and future together. The past is remembered but not physically experienced, the future remains unknown.
To achieve the simultaneous awareness of past, present and future would mean a complete reevaluation of the nature of our existence in terms of consciousness, Time and physical reality, something which Dunne argues is the logical conclusion of his work.?
God can see the past, present and future AT THE SAME TIME. That is how He knows with 100 % accuracy without forcing any of our choices.
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Dear Diem,
Answer to your question according to my understanding is very long and needs clearer understanding of the system of God (Deen). In my unerstanding, Unless you understand God's system completely you cannot have the answer to your question because your question is based on wrong assumptions.
Your question was
If God knows everything that is going to happen, what is the point of creating humans if he knows what they are going to do? What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so whats the point?
God knows everything that is going to happen
it is correct but it is not related to deeds.What is the point of creating humans
this part has already been answered in the posts by other participants.If he knows what they are going to do?
he knows and he also does according to their deeds.What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so what?s the point
In my understanding you have been taught wrong that he created us for worship. There is no such thing as worship in Quran, this word is created by religious fanatics and in Quran equaling of worship in my understanding is minasik(rituals)In my understanding the problem in understanding is due to following reasons
- Idea of having one life (it is a cycle he created for us to reach salvation and we will remain in this cycle until Yawmmuddin)
- Divisions will be hell and heaven only. (actually three divisions)
- Assumptions about hell and heaven (it is same as this land or world)
- God does what he wills assumed wrongly (changing of circumstances by God)
- Translating yawmmuddin into judgment day. (time of the God?s system)
Answers are in Quran but if you want the exact verses then please let me know and I will find it for you. Not putting right now is due to short time.
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Okay...
this is getting a bit off topic,
lets organize the major thoughts here,"We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)
So relative to Allah, we were created in a means or a way in which Allah has chosen to manifest his attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and he could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship Allah. As we said, Allah does not need our worship, a Allah didn?t need to create. When he created us to worship him, he didn?t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs
sun Gloru be to lord--Thanks for your explanation, I think so far this makes the most sense to me.
A good point that was brought up was that time is an illusion, there is no "passing" of time, time is the interval between an event occuring constantly
Lets say today I decide I am going to go shopping for apples tomorrow. So based on this God predicts that I am going to buy apples. When I get to the store the oranges look more delicious and I decide to buy them. Does this not mean that God was wrong about me buying apples? (astagfirallah &
From this we can extrapolate the fact that god exists outside of the binds of time and space.From what I understand so far.
- God created is because it is in his nature to create.
- God has no need to be worshipped because he doesnt need us
- God is not bound to his creation (time, space, and the other forces active and present in the universe)
Out of these three ideas I conclude that God created us because it is in his nature to create and not because he needs to be worshipped. Also, God exists "outside" of the laws of the universe because he is not subjec to his own creation.
Although these are all good ideas, this doesnt explain why God Almighty would create anything in the first place. I think we are back to square one brickwall-----If someone has more to add to this discussion please do so
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Is there any answer yet,
this is creating a ton of doubt in my mind that I would prefer was not there... &I'll ask, as simply as I can.
If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
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If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
Peace all
The outcome of God creations is known to him, and therefore, He created us.
And for the out come to be real, we had to go through the Free-Well experience.Salam
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Peace Diem,
The answer lies in panentheism. We were created (converted from an existence as pure energy/spirits to a material existence) with our own permission !
Before our creation we were existing as energy/spirits as a miniscule part of the One Whole. Our creation as a material existence in this material universe with free will was carried out with our informed consent. We let it happen to ourselves, knowing the consequences! God did it only after our permission after we were explained the risk of possibility of walking the wrong path and ending up in hell.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
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If we do not know what God is, how can we discuss why "He" does this or that?
Peace Samia
I will pray for you to Know God as I and others did.
My first advise for you is to understand God's words as a simple and clear words, and not as a complected and puzzling words. And when you do, you will start to get to Know about Him. -
Peace Samia
I will pray for you to Know God as I and others did.
My first advise for you is to understand God's words as a simple and clear words, and not as a complected and puzzling words. And when you do, you will start to get to Know about Him.So, what is God? He gave parables for Himself and told us that He is unlike anything, and you come to tell me you know what He is? Typical, always claiming to know things but much a do about othing
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Peace Diem,
The answer lies in panentheism. We were created (converted from an existence as pure energy/spirits to a material existence) with our own permission !
Before our creation we were existing as energy/spirits as a miniscule part of the One Whole. Our creation as a material existence in this material universe with free will was carried out with our informed consent. We let it happen to ourselves, knowing the consequences! God did it only after our permission after we were explained the risk of possibility of walking the wrong path and ending up in hell.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
I've never quite looked him panentheism, but it sounds "theoretical", in that how do we know? I'm guessing its based on your interpretation of that Ayat.
Still waiting for an explanation to my question... brickwall
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Peace bro ?Arnold?,
Hope you're fine. Im not posting much yet but might so again in a few weeks. Anyways i wanted to comment on a point of yours.
It seems Allah has allowed us to have free will and for Him not to decide our decisions, this means He has voluntarely limited His control on our destiny by everytime creating options, and although He knows we are gonna take, He had not decided that before we took it as we decide our own development. That is His true rahma.
JK- I?ve been thinking about this too BUT it is somewhat problematic and I?ll point out why. If GOD does not control our destiny or even if He merely limited His control on our destiny then how is it possible that He?s accurately able to control our life and death which is clearly mentioned in the Quran and that nobody dies EXCEPT at an appointed time by Him
No one dies except by GOD's leave, at a predetermined time?
Now if so many people make a choice to kill certain people or so many people make mistakes due to which other?s lives are put in danger and there?s a high chance of them dying, then this would mean in all those or at least in most of such cases GOD would have to INTERVENE in the universe in order to save those lives because their fixed time had not yet come and this is against what we both agreed upon earlier i.e. GOD?s System being fixed and never changing. Also that free will only exists in our frame of reference and not in GOD?s is proven by the following Quranic verses
I?ll first quote the latter verse
Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you?
HOWEVER the previous verse says
Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles. When something good happens to them, they say, "This is from GOD," and when something bad afflicts them, they blame you. Say, "Everything comes from GOD." Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?
Indeed I had trouble understanding these verses and was almost forced to admit to myself that this is a contradiction YET it is absolutely logical and true if we consider the relative frame of reference argument I?ve just made. Hence 479 is relative to us humans whilst 478 makes it clear that from GOD?s pt of reference EVERYTHING IS PLANNED AND EVERYTHING IS GOOD. Technically we can never speak of GOD wronging anyone as well since the term ?wrong? itself ONLY MAKES SENSE IN OUR RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE AND NEVER FROM THAT OF GOD?S as is also made clear in many verses
...But He never misleads thereby except the wicked,
who violate GOD's covenant after pledging to uphold it, sever what GOD has commanded to be joined, and commit evil. These are the losers.
...GOD never wronged them; it is they who wronged themselves.
We never wronged them; they wronged their own souls?
...GOD is not the One who wronged them; they are the ones who wronged their own souls.
Hence the most logical conclusion I?ve reached now is that free will/choice only exists in OUR RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE and everything we know as evil is relative too and there is NO ABSOLUTE EVIL. Thus even what is known to us as evil in our relative frame of reference ultimately still belongs to GOD?s Plan and serves a useful/beneficial purpose which we may or may not be aware off at any point in time in this universe. Hence the terms ?mislead, wringed, wicked? have no meaning from GOD?s frame of reference. YET we see in the above verses GOD putting Himself in our frame of reference and thus clarifying the issue to us which is a necessity for the causal continuum of our universe. Only in 478 do we really get a hint of GOD?s own frame of reference and perhaps this is why it ends with a very harsh remark ??.Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?? A little bit of thought would?ve led even those people back then to the frame of reference concept as there were many extremely intelligent greek philosophers even before them but they just decided to remain ignorant. GOD Bless!