al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
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Trying to divert from the topic? Where did you get such a wild idea from? Nobody expects a dialogue to progress in a rigidly linear fashion, so do away with the assumption and let us stick to the facts.
You are working under the assumption that Safa and Marwa are not mountains or whatever, while he is assuming that they are very much that. So there is nothing which makes anything go against him or in your favor.
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Salam, Peace to all,
2 things
1- either "Masjid Al Haram" is a construction/building, and then the Great Reading doesn't tell us much about the location, and therefore details are missing in the Great Reading!
2- either "Masjid Al Haram" is not a construction/building and all the details are in the Great Reading, we just need to open our mind and forget about our "influenced" background.My personnal choice is the second one.
Then searching/studying a bout the word Masjid.
Masjid comes from Ma+Sajada--> a deep study of sajada demonstarte SAJADA means more than likely "obedience with humility""Masjid Al Haram" is translated by some "Instution of the obedience of the Restriction" then a problem occur, how would you explain "MASSAJID", are there many "Institutions of Obedience"?
My understanding is if MASJID would mean a "state of obedience" rather than "Institution of Obedience" then the plural would fit perfectly as the "states of Obedience".
What are these "states"? This can be answered by the Great Reading by looking the occurences of SAJADA.
SAJADA is the action, when masjid is the state.1- state - Devotion at night
3113Not all of them are alike of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
3114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous.2- state/ Accomplish the salat
4102-4103
3-state "follow the God's commands"
4153-154
The sabat for the bani Israel4- state
711-12
The Angels5- state " Belive in Rabi Al alameen"
7120-121 (First state)
But the sorcerers fell down prostrate (sajidoona) in adoration.
Saying "we believe in the Lord of the worlds.6- state "Believe in the verses of God"
17106-107As we can see here these are the different states, now come the "Masjid Al Haram".
This is a state described/mentionned in the Great Reading in the context of Hajj see 2144, 2149, 2150, 2191, 2196
As Hajj is to be performed during the "restriction" month see 597, then the "Masjid of Restrictions" is the state where one apply these restrictions on him.In 2187 we can see one of the restriction to be applied
......
......but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in MASSAJIDA. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.I cannot answer to whom this restriction in 2187 has to be applied to the one making hajj, the one who fast, all mumeen, all muslim? I don't know!
Please comment.
BTW I should add this
The restriction in this context would be for the one fasting, wich is a "state of obedience" and I remembered this question from DrFazl
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598006.0
2187 will perfectly aswer this allegation with this meaning of Massajid/Masjid.
Peace
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Peace Raginggaijin,
first things first.
No, I am not kidding.
Is this your translation or you just copy paste it? Did you try to undestand it or tried to search the meaning of each word? Or simplier, just take diffefrent translations and compare?
Yusuf Ali translation
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (Able to enforce His Will).Moshin Khan
Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said "Our Lord is All?h." - For had it not been that All?h checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of All?h is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, All?h will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, All?h is All-Strong, All-Mighty.Pikthal
Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty -Shakir
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, MightyFree-minds
The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said Our Lord is God! And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and bonds, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.I know what you gone a say, FM translation is not an "official" translation while the other are, were there revealed with the arabic version at the same time?
If masjid is the arabic word for mosque, do you usually have sex in the mosque as stated in 2187
......
......but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in MASSAJIDA. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.I am not going to counter argue the other point, safa , marwa etc etc because you did no make any effort to search, study the verse 2240, therefore I am not going to do the job for you, it is your own responsability.
BTW going and coming back 7 times from Mount Safa to Mount Marwa will not give you any spritual benefit, but very good for your body, it is a good sport.Peace
18 different Qurans, including the original Arabic. Yes, I am learning Arabic. If a white American can learn Arabic, no one has any excuses.
They are still structures. And as we see in Surah 17, speaking of destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel, it is called Masjid.
They are all structures, tangible, and a place of congregation.
The Temple that was destroyed twice, and still lays in ruin today.
I said nothing about going between Safa and Marwa. I only posted they are signposts of Allah, monuments that show the way to Masjid Al-Haram and the House inside it. Double-bind rhetoric falls in the face of Truth.
It appears I am the one who made the effort.
Peace.
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Not sure why you're trying to divert from the topic. Anyway, have I conducted an exhaustive study of all the words related to the hajj in the quran? No I have not. I have "studied" it in a fairly limited sense in that I have read articles on it and read discussions on it here at the forum. I've also briefly looked at the history of the masjid al-haram, etc. It is quite clear (to me) that ideas were later institutionalized and retroactively attached to certain quranic ideas, not just with regard to the hajj but also other quranic concepts. This should come as no surprise. Any student of the quran, any student of history, should expect such a thing to happen.
Also, I wanted to say that I did not post in this thread until brother ragingaijin "quoted" to an actual verse of the quran (complete with citation) and laid out a text that simply does not exist in the verse itself. We can argue about what the verse means, sure, but to literally say the verse says such and such when it clearly does not, is not okay. It should go without saying that I don't need to have done an exhaustive study of all the concepts of hajj to take issue with such reckless verse-quoting.
Peace.
Then take a look and come to the same conclusion. Or not, the choice is yours.
Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran Surah 7146, 1745, 1857, 4144, 3923
Are the small mountains of Safa and Marwa partially enclosed in Masjid Al-Haram today? Yes or no.
Are Safa and Marwa monuments of Allah? Yes or no.
Are these two monuments for pilgrimage? Yes or no.
Pilgrimage to the House? Yes or no.What have I posted that is does not have proof? Feel free to quibble about the way I post, it matters naught to me. I give proofs to back up what I believe, and show in the Quran the reasoning behind it.
As I've seen in the past, there are people here to seek to deceive and mislead. Such is the way of Allah. But as we are taught in the Quran, we know who the enemies of Al-Islam are (Surah 47) and we are taught how to interact with them. I am gentle to the believers, stern toward the unbelievers. If I am wrong, may Allah guide me to a right better than this.
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
I have made mistakes in the past, and I correct them, insha'Allah. If you can find another Safa and Marwa and give proof they mark the way to the House, then please post the proof and I will check it. If you are correct, I will follow what Allah has revealed and used you to show the Truth.
But until then, I will not follow those who seek to mislead or stray outside of the teachings of the Quran. I have asked Allah to show me the Truth, to grant knowledge to the believers, and He is Bountiful, Provider. He has guided me to the Truth and shown me clear proofs that testify to the teachings of the Quran. Why would I doubt Allah, who is Patron to the believers?
Allah is the best guidance, Allah explains Surah 373, 426, 487,179, 346, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7516-19, 7750, 1035, 73, 2779, 333, 1689
?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you (mercifully), and Allah is Knowing, Wise.? Surah 426
"Move not thy tongue therewith to make haste with it. Surely on Us rests the collecting of it and the reciting of it. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Again on Us rests the explaining of it." Surah 7516-19
I have proof the Quran's Author is the Creator. I have proof in the Quran our Creator will guide and explain to the believer.
But man, who more oft than not seeks to mislead? You must show proofs to back up what you claim.
Explanation is not proof.
The Quran is clear, easy to remember, and a guidance to the believer. You do not need to be a scholar to understand it, contrary to what others would have you believe.
Seek assistance through patience and prayer Surah 245, 2153, 2186
"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way." Surah 2186The Quran is the Book, the Wisdom, complete and fully detailed Surah 1854, 331, 1037, 311-6, 2530,111, 413, 4144, 6114, 752, 12111, 1689
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854The Quran is the Wisdom because it teaches you Critical Thinking. Think. Ponder. Meditate on the Quran.
I have given proofs of why I believe all that I do. Falsehood is confronted with Truth of the revelation of Allah. What more needs to be said?
Those who wish to be guided know to turn their faces to Allah and to do His will. Not their own.
Proof Angels and Iblis
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz151UufthwAs far as I am concerned, this conversation is over.
Peace.
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Then take a look and come to the same conclusion. Or not, the choice is yours.
Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran Surah 7146, 1745, 1857, 4144, 3923
Are the small mountains of Safa and Marwa partially enclosed in Masjid Al-Haram today? Yes or no.
Are Safa and Marwa monuments of Allah? Yes or no.
Are these two monuments for pilgrimage? Yes or no.
Pilgrimage to the House? Yes or no.What have I posted that is does not have proof? Feel free to quibble about the way I post, it matters naught to me. I give proofs to back up what I believe, and show in the Quran the reasoning behind it.
I normally don't respond to people who are needlessly hostile but you've asked me a few questions so, despite my better judgment, I will respond.
Again, I have not done an exhaustive study so I won't confidently state the various terms we're discussing mean this or that. What I can confidently say at this point is that it is incredibly likely that the interpretation of these terms were institutionalized and attached to the text. I say that because a) the 'hyper-ritualistic' nature of the hajj seems very pagan, b) historical evidence indicates that things didn't play out the way our "scholars" would like us to believe and c) this happens all the time, the forcing of meanings onto text, and the process of nominalization. It is not a conspiracy theory but basic common sense, assuming one understands how the flow of history and politics/power works.
You have not given any proof. As far as I can tell, you have simply stated that Safa and Marwa are what they are because your ancestors/scholars have told you that's what they are, and then you "backed" that up with a Google image showing the names of the two mountains. You're simply misunderstanding the argument, and I'm starting to genuinely question why, because you seem like an intelligent person otherwise.
And I will continue to "quibble" about the way you post, as well as discuss the content of your post. I can do both. You have been very hostile in this thread, for no good reason.
As I've seen in the past, there are people here to seek to deceive and mislead. Such is the way of Allah. But as we are taught in the Quran, we know who the enemies of Al-Islam are (Surah 47) and we are taught how to interact with them. I am gentle to the believers, stern toward the unbelievers. If I am wrong, may Allah guide me to a right better than this.
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
You are comparing the events of this thread to the situation Muhammad found himself in, wherein he was being physically assaulted by clear unbelievers putting his entire community's life at stake? Really??? Just because there have been people here who seek to deceive and mislead does not automatically mean ayman or I am one of those people. What is your criterion for an unbeliever? Someone who disagrees with you on the particular interpretation of a quranic issue? That's what it appears to me.
I admire your zeal to do what you think is right but your hostility is misplaced. The entire world is not against you. We have gathered on this forum to discuss the quran. We disagree on interpretations, and we discuss them. This is what quranic study is all about. Why the hostility?
The timeline of this thread went simply like this
- raginggaijin expressed that a verse literally said something when it clearly did not.
- ayman asked raginggaijing to remove the reference because the verse did not literally say that.
- raginggaijin called ayman (and soon, myself as well) an unbeliever.
What exactly makes me or ayman an unbeliever? The fact that we take issue with your reckless verse-quoting?
I have made mistakes in the past, and I correct them, insha'Allah. If you can find another Safa and Marwa and give proof they mark the way to the House, then please post the proof and I will check it. If you are correct, I will follow what Allah has revealed and used you to show the Truth.
But until then, I will not follow those who seek to mislead or stray outside of the teachings of the Quran. I have asked Allah to show me the Truth, to grant knowledge to the believers, and He is Bountiful, Provider. He has guided me to the Truth and shown me clear proofs that testify to the teachings of the Quran. Why would I doubt Allah, who is Patron to the believers?
The idea that one cannot dispute the validity of a rendered interpretation without first giving a definite meaning himself is, quite simply, fallacious. So, because I don't know the exact meanings of certain concepts, I have to simply bow my head to what the scholars have stated the meanings are? Hardly.
These sorts of arguments have been used throughout history in all arenas of life. When abolitionists were trying to ban slavery in the U.S. for moral reasons, one common rejoinder from slave-owners was that there didn't exist a better economic system that could survive without slaves. In other words, they were saying "show us your proof that what we're doing is not right, show us how you'll replace our system." Do you see the similarity? Just because I don't know exactly how to replace the slave-holding system doesn't make the institution of slavery any more moral or correct. Lack of an alternative theory is not justification for the validity of the "mainstream" theory.
Allah is the best guidance, Allah explains Surah 373, 426, 487,179, 346, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7516-19, 7750, 1035, 73, 2779, 333, 1689
?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you (mercifully), and Allah is Knowing, Wise.? Surah 426
"Move not thy tongue therewith to make haste with it. Surely on Us rests the collecting of it and the reciting of it. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Again on Us rests the explaining of it." Surah 7516-19
I have proof the Quran's Author is the Creator. I have proof in the Quran our Creator will guide and explain to the believer.
But man, who more oft than not seeks to mislead? You must show proofs to back up what you claim.
Explanation is not proof.
The Quran is clear, easy to remember, and a guidance to the believer. You do not need to be a scholar to understand it, contrary to what others would have you believe.
Seek assistance through patience and prayer Surah 245, 2153, 2186
"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way." Surah 2186The Quran is the Book, the Wisdom, complete and fully detailed Surah 1854, 331, 1037, 311-6, 2530,111, 413, 4144, 6114, 752, 12111, 1689
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854The Quran is the Wisdom because it teaches you Critical Thinking. Think. Ponder. Meditate on the Quran.
I have given proofs of why I believe all that I do. Falsehood is confronted with Truth of the revelation of Allah. What more needs to be said?
Those who wish to be guided know to turn their faces to Allah and to do His will. Not their own.
Proof Angels and Iblis
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz151UufthwAs far as I am concerned, this conversation is over.
Peace.
It's funny you espouse critical thinking, when it's quite clear you're content to not use it yourself. Additionally, I never said you have to be a scholar to understand the quran. Again, shades of gray. Just because the core message is simple does not mean that one cannot question the accepted mainstream interpretation of various concepts. I urge you to think critically, to study up on history to realize how things typically play out and indeed how they did play out in Islamic history, etc.
I'm assuming you are here on this forum because you eschew the use of ahadith and realize there were many hypocrites who used ahadith to further their own agenda. If that is the case, why are you so diametrically opposed to the idea that similar actors used other methods to further their agenda? Namely, the forcing of meanings onto the text.
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peace CD,
You may be aware of this post already, but
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8795.msg40400#msg40400Peace Wakas,
I hadn't seen that post, thank you. It jives with what I understood based on other readings, that many of the terms used with regard to the concept of hajj have to do with animals/food/feast. The lack of 'ila' in between 'hajja' and 'albayta' is also pretty illuminating, as you pointed out.
Check your PM Wakas. Question about PRL.
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peace CD,
The lack of 'ila' in between 'hajja' and 'albayta' is also pretty illuminating, as you pointed out.
I have repeatedly pointed out this deception. It is prevalent in almost all translations, including the free-minds one.
As a side note, I just realised the potentially significant implications of my point 4. Consider sequence, and see in conjunction with http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976
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Surah 2278- You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Submitters" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and hold fast to GOD; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.
Is religion easy? yes hajj no hajj why hajj?
Questions
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If the Holy Shrine (Kaba) or the Sacred Masjid or the House that Abraham and his son built for Allah/Humanity was in Possesion of the Pegans...Where was it Located?
*For one Option, Mecca is known for having pegan idols...before Muhammad PBUH. -
If The Holy Shrine/House built by Abraham was taken over by Pegans But later was taken over my Muhammad and his Army...where was this at? Well, it would make sense that Saudi Arabia (the place of Prophet Muhammad) was the place here He had the most Opposition and war, and was the 1st place he conqured. It could be compelety relevent to think it was probabily the Kaba in Mecca?
3),If Mecca was just some Pegan Place where evil satanic people worshiped a Black Cube Box and places a Black Stone (meteorite) there, The Prophet Muhammad takes over Mecca...A) Why didnt He Destory the Kaba? (Did He?) and B) You mean to tell me that even after he died... the satanic pegans STILL WON and kept their black Box except now blended their satanic beliefs with Islam? For example... (Before Muhammad) it was Saudi Peganism 2.0...and After Muhammad it was MEGA NEW AND IMPROVED Peganism 10.0?
I mean wow... thats a hard one to swallow...4)if Ayman and everyone who disbelieves in Hajj and the Kaba in Mecca, and believes in the Conspiracy that it was Pegan satanic people who came with a new and improved form of peganism to delude the people into praying to Allah at the pegan black box... My question is Why would they do so OR MORE importanly WHAT would they gain from this?
^ For instance, If you were an evil satanic pegan...and there was a bunch of dumb muslims who were to follow you...what would you essentially GAIN from them Praying to their GOD at YOUR pegan Shrine? I guess the Obvious Physical Benifits such as Money... But This is what I dont get... Mecca was known for being an Oppressive Capitalist City that Thrived off the Sacrifices (money) that Traveling Tourists gave to go and do Hajj at the Kabba. So then we are told Muhammad Beat them and Won and there was no more evil exploitation....here is my question...Where did these people Get this Ritual from? (abraham)?
And So far my LAST Question.... Does ANYBODY know of the Name of the Pegan Religion or have a Book about the Religion where a bunch of Pegan Arabs go into the Desert of Mecca and pray at a black Cube Box? IS there any such religon? So far I belive this Originated from Abraham, however it was Not pegan in orgin rather it was taken over by pegans, then later taken over by Muhammad, and then now taken over agin by Pegans...Only to Hopefully be taken BACK by Quranic Monotheists who follow the religion of abraham...( but I guess some dont think abraham did such things..., then again...some dont even think Prayer is even a practice practiced by Abraham or prophets...so here we go again...) yuck
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Selam RA786
When the oil runs out the truth will be revealled.
Peace
Can you elabarate more on that?
Is that a Literal or a metephoric expression?Oil running out (literal) of Saudi Arabia?
and What Truth is to be revealed?*sorry, I am not a fan of suprises or expressions...I need a bold cold cut answer with no strings attached. straightforeward! D
Salaam -
Can you elabarate more on that?
Salaam
Selam
Its exactly as it is mentioned. At the moment no one can go into Arabia and do an independant archaeological digs to varify anything. Everything is covered up or sold to you and me in a nice package that fits their intepretation. As people wise up and they lose their wealth the country will be more open, in my opinion anyways.
Peace
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peace RA786,
Does ANYBODY know of the Name of the Pegan Religion or have a Book about the Religion where a bunch of Pegan Arabs go into the Desert of Mecca and pray at a black Cube Box? IS there any such religon?
Not in Mecca as this name is not mentioned pre-Quran in any source. I believe bro Ayman mentions this practice in one of his articles. Stone idol worship was fairly prevalent in the region, as testified by AQ itself. Also, I know in Lane's Lexicon he states "k3b (root of kaaba) shares the same name as a house/temple which was circuited/compassed by the tribe of Rabee'ah" and suggests Al-Lat was also circuited/compassed. There is probably a ton of info here and there, but I have not studied it specifically. Bro Ayman will likely know more about it.
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@ra786 Is religion easy? yes hajj no hajj why hajj?
Here's my writeup about how many Jews and Christians misunderstand the Arabic 'hajj' and mistranslate it as feast/festival/sacrifice based on their Biblical background
Hajj in the Bible. (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599972.0)
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And So far my LAST Question.... Does ANYBODY know of the Name of the Pegan Religion or have a Book about the Religion where a bunch of Pegan Arabs go into the Desert of Mecca and pray at a black Cube Box? IS there any such religon? So far I belive this Originated from Abraham, however it was Not pegan in orgin rather it was taken over by pegans, then later taken over by Muhammad, and then now taken over agin by Pegans...Only to Hopefully be taken BACK by Quranic Monotheists who follow the religion of abraham...( but I guess some dont think abraham did such things..., then again...some dont even think Prayer is even a practice practiced by Abraham or prophets...so here we go again...) yuck
El
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29
"El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch, or Yahweh.""The word El was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of Gods or the Father of all Gods, in the ruins of the Royal Library of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot, each of whom has similar attributes to the Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon or Ophion and Hades or Thanatos respectively. Ancient Greek mythographers identified El with Cronus (not Chronos)."
Just as the Prophets (pbut) are worshiped or associated equal status to Allah, so too could Abraham (pbuh) be associated with Allah back in the time of Sumeria/Babel.
"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449
The god is El, chief Sumerian god in their pantheon. His planet is Saturn, and he is represented by a black cube.
"For the Canaanites, Eli or Il was the supreme god, the father of mankind and all creatures. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot, each share similar attributes to the GrecoRoman gods Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades respectively.
Three pantheon lists found at Ugarit begin with the four gods ?il-?ib (which according to Cross is the name of a generic kind of deity, perhaps the divine ancestor of the people), l, Dagnu (that is Dagon), and Ba?l apn (that is the god Haddu or Hadad). Though Ugarit had a large temple dedicated to Dagon and another to Hadad, there was no temple dedicated to l."l is called again and again T?ru ?l ("Bull l" or "the bull god". He is btnyu binwti ("Creator of creatures", ?ab ban ?ili ("father of the gods", and ?ab ?adami ("father of man". He is qniyunu ??lam ("creator eternal", the epithet ??lam appearing in Hebrew form in the Hebrew name of God ?l ??lam "God Eternal" in Genesis 21.33. He is tikuka ("your patriarch". l is the grey-bearded ancient one, full of wisdom, malku ("king", ?ab ?amma ("father of years", ?l gibbr ("l the warrior". He is also named lpn of unknown meaning, variously rendered as Latpan, Latipan, or Lutpani ("shroud-face" by Strong's Hebrew Concordance)."
Secular write-up on Saturn worship
http//vigilantcitizen.com/?p=863"In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god, the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the Goddess Asherah as recorded in the tablets of Ugarit."
"And that He -- exalted be the majesty of our Lord -- has not taken a consort, nor a son" Surah 723
Modern Christianity, notably the Catholic Church, follows this doctrine of consort and offspring by calling Mary the 'Mother of God', and Isa (pbuh) the 'Son of God'.
Canaanite religion
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religionRead "Yahweh and the Gods of the Canaan" by William Albright for more information.
Pagan Syncretism Deut. 12 2-7, Deut. 13, Exo. 3412-13, Deut. 75, Deut. 1621-22, I Kings 1422-24, II Chron. 143-4, II Kings 177-12, II Kings 184-6, II Chron. 311, Judges 625-30, 1 Kings 1630-33, II Chron. 176, II Kings 211-7, II Kings 233-7
All-Seeing Eye Zech. 1117, Mat. 622, Luke 1134
Sun worship Eze. 816
Nimrod, Semiramis, Tammuz (original Trinity) I Kings 136, Jer. 717-19, Jer. 4415-23, Eze. 813-16, Jer. 101-5, Lev. 1821, 1717, II Chron. 336, II Chron. 283, Acts 1923-41, Amos 526, I Kings 115, Acts 743, Hos. 216-17
Amen I Kings 136Hexagon (Star of molech/rephan)/Star of David Amos 526, I Kings 115, Acts 743, Acts 1923-41
Asherah pole/tree Judges 625, I Kings 1415-23, II Kings 162-4,33, II Kings 136, II Kings 1710-16, II Chron. 284, II Chron. 333, I Sam. 4018-20, I Sam. 575, I Sam. 6617, Jer. 220, 36,13, 101-5, Eze. 613
Obelisks (phallus of Nimrod) Gen. 2818-22, Gen. 3145, Gen. 3514, Exo. 244, Deut. 1622-23,
Masonic Pillars ? Joachin and Boaz I Kings 715-22, II Chron. 315-17
Sacrament of Mithras Mark 1424, Luke 2220
Rod of Asclepius Num. 219, II Kings 184, John 314-15
Israelites worship Allah and their own pagan gods II Kings 1724-41, Hos. 85, Hos. 105
Canaanite gods Yahweh or Yah, for a short time, a son of El and brother of Baal, sometimes married to Asherah.
YHWH fought Leviathan Isaiah 271; Psalm 7414; Job 38, Job 4025, Job 411Figurines of Asherah are strikingly common in the archaeological record, indicating the popularity of her cult from the earliest times to the Babylonian exile. More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered an 8th century BCE ostracon (fragment of pottery) inscribed "Berakhti etkhem l?YHVH Shomron ul?Asherato" (Hebrew ‎ was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Quntilat 'Ajrud (Hebrew "Horvat Teman" in the course of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975, prior to the Israeli withdrawal from this area. This translates as "I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah" (or perhaps "... by YHVH our guardian and His Asherah", if "Shomron" is to be read "shomrenu".
Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!" The first person to identify the pillar figurines with Asherah was Raphael Patai, in The Hebrew Goddess.Forbidden Tree Surah 235, 2102, 719-22, 1760, 20120-121, 3762-64, 4443, 5652
Tree of Zaqqum Surah 1760, 3762, 4443, 5652
?And when We said to you Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We cause them to fear, but it only adds to their great inordinacy.? Surah 1760
Kabbalah/Babylon Surah 2102
Allah refutes Fallen angels Surah 2324
Sahirin - magicians of Egypt Surah 7112, 1079, 2049-71, Exo. 7-8
Children of Israel desire to worship other gods as the people they come upon Surah 7138
The cow Surah 251-54, 7148-152, 2086-97, Exo. 32
Samiri/Samaritan ? (They call themselves Bene Yisrael) Surah 2085-98, 4629
Ba?al Surah 37123-130, I Kings 1816-40
Sun worship Surah 27 24
Secret Societies Surah 587-22, 2102, 481,108, 978, 1747, 1530-40, 6123, 211-4, 26124-131, Zech. 1117
Diviners/soothsayers/astrologers Surah 1516-18, 376-11, 5238,41, 675, 728-9There is a reason why Allah calls the Jews 'Yahoodians'.
Followers of YHWH (Yahoodu/Yahoodian) Surah 2111, 2113, 2120, 367, 518, 564, 930
"Ibrahim was not a Jew (yahoodiyyan) nor a Christian (nasraniyyan) but he was upright, a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists." Surah 367
YHWH
JewYHWH - Divine Name linked to All-Seeing Eye
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSfyJ91vyN4All-Seeing Eye ritual at 9-11 Ground Zero
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B-n8GxvHJYStar of Rephan
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5eJQkSq9QEAccording to history of man, the Kaaba was destroyed and rebuilt to include the Place of Abraham, but later razed and rebuilt to the cube shape.
"The Kaaba has been repaired and reconstructed many times since Muhammad's day. Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who ruled Mecca for many years between the death of Ali and the consolidation of Ummayad power, is said to have demolished the old Kaaba and rebuilt it to include the hatm, a semi-circular wall now outside the Kaaba. He did so on the basis of a tradition (found in several hadith collections) that the hatm was a remnant of the foundations of the Abrahamic Kaaba, and that Muhammad himself had wished to rebuild so as to include it.
This structure was destroyed (or partially destroyed) in 683, during the war between al-Zubayr and Umayyad forces commanded by Al-Hajjaj bin Yousef. Al-Hajjaj used stone-throwing catapults against the Meccans.
The Ummayads under Abdu l-Malik ibn Marwan finally reunited all the former Islamic possessions and ended the long civil war. In 693 he had the remnants of al-Zubayr's Kaaba razed, and rebuilt on the foundations set by the Quraysh. The Kaaba returned to the cube shape it had taken during Muhammad's lifetime."
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaabaAs proven in the Hadith forum, the hadiths are the teachings of the Jews and Christians. What better way to destroy a deen than from within?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599796.0Misdirection. Look to Joseph Al-Kattab aka Joseph Cohen and Adam Qadahn aka Adam Pearlman. If they embrace Sunni Islam, they do not leave the teachings of the Jews.
Jewish infiltration of Al-Islam today
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqVUCjHRkVkThose who inherited the deen of Al-Islam could not change the location of the pilgrimage, as Safa and Marwa are a monument of Allah that point the way for pilgrimage to the House, but they could change the direction/giblah of servitude.
All roads lead back to Babel.
"And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing. Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; but of them is he who makes his soul to suffer a loss, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence." Surah 3531-32
We serve Allah, we do not worship Him. Surah 15, 4172
Pray for guidance and knowledge.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.
Peace.
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I normally don't respond to people who are needlessly hostile but you've asked me a few questions so, despite my better judgment, I will respond.
Again, I have not done an exhaustive study so I won't confidently state the various terms we're discussing mean this or that.
Thank you for this admission.
What I can confidently say at this point is that it is incredibly likely that the interpretation of these terms were institutionalized and attached to the text.
Confidently, without proof or without exhaustive study.
I say that because a) the 'hyper-ritualistic' nature of the hajj seems very pagan, b) historical evidence indicates that things didn't play out the way our "scholars" would like us to believe and c) this happens all the time, the forcing of meanings onto text, and the process of nominalization. It is not a conspiracy theory but basic common sense, assuming one understands how the flow of history and politics/power works.
The rituals of the Hajj of Islam are pagan and idolatrous. You will not hear me say otherwise as the proofs are there for any who studies. They are based on the esoteric mystery schools and Kabbalist teachings of Babel. As proven in the reply above.
But we are commanded to visit the House, as it is a place of sacrifice. The sacrifices given at Masjid Al-Haram/House are not shared with the poor and believer, but buried instead.
You have not given any proof. As far as I can tell, you have simply stated that Safa and Marwa are what they are because your ancestors/scholars have told you that's what they are, and then you "backed" that up with a Google image showing the names of the two mountains. You're simply misunderstanding the argument, and I'm starting to genuinely question why, because you seem like an intelligent person otherwise.
If Allah leaves a monument, I can expect to see it. These are signs of Allah, just as the signs of Isa (pbuh) and his mother, the Pharoah, the Companions, and Noah's are still signs today.
Signs for mankind
Noah?s Ark - Turkey Surah 2915
Preserved Pharaoh ? Ramses II Surah 1090-92
Isa (pbuh) and Mary ? Kasmir Surah 2191
Companions of the Cave ? Ephesus Surah 189"That; and whoever respects the signs of Allah, this surely is of the piety of hearts." Surah 2232
I have given proofs not only from the Quran but from the world we live in. You are more than welcome to deny them. In the End, we will both know who is rightly guided and who is following their Free Will, Iblis. I am not responsible for you, nor am I your guardian.
I believe in the Quran. All of it.
And I will continue to "quibble" about the way you post, as well as discuss the content of your post. I can do both. You have been very hostile in this thread, for no good reason.
Bring proofs or keep silent, it's wiser.
"That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord; thus does Allah set forth to men their examples."
Surah 47 is a Surah to study to understand why I treat some with sternness, and others with gentleness.
"That is because they hated what Allah revealed, so He rendered their deeds null." Surah 479
"And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires." Surah 4716
I have no problem standing up to falsehood and giving proofs from the Quran and from the world around us; I fear Allah, not man.
"And those who believe say Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!" Surah 4720Fear Allah, not man
Surah 3339, 2045-46, 3173-175, 1015You are comparing the events of this thread to the situation Muhammad found himself in, wherein he was being physically assaulted by clear unbelievers putting his entire community's life at stake? Really??? Just because there have been people here who seek to deceive and mislead does not automatically mean ayman or I am one of those people. What is your criterion for an unbeliever? Someone who disagrees with you on the particular interpretation of a quranic issue? That's what it appears to me.
Those who seek to mislead will be met with the Truth. You may not be one of these people, but I have read Ayman's posts. He is seeking to misguide from the revelation of Allah. The stickied 'Hot' Ramadan is proof of this misdirection from the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), revealed by Allah, and back to pagan worship of nature and the sun.
Don't get defensive. If the shoe does not fit, the description of unbeliever, than don't take offense to it. Give proofs.
I admire your zeal to do what you think is right but your hostility is misplaced. The entire world is not against you. We have gathered on this forum to discuss the quran. We disagree on interpretations, and we discuss them. This is what quranic study is all about. Why the hostility?
We are not taught to study in a large group.
Ponder the Quran in twos or singly Surah 3446, 2219, 3191, 482, 1612, 2368, 3829
I am providing my beliefs based on proofs from the Quran and what I have researched. If someone wants to discredit or correct me, then provide clear proofs.
You got in between Ayman and I, seeking him as a guardian. If you do not want to be involved between Ayman and I, do not get involved.
"Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets." Surah 4725-26
My statements stand Safa and Marwa are signposts of Allah. They are near the House for pilgrimage. And even now I can ask where Safa and Marwa are, and they are two small mountains partially enclosed within Masjid Al-Haram.
Show me another Safa and Marwa if you speak truthfully.
The timeline of this thread went simply like this
- raginggaijin expressed that a verse literally said something when it clearly did not.
buzzer Wrong. I gave the Surah then I gave my explanation of it based on the proofs found in the Quran and in the world. You don't like my wording, so be it. But do not pretend to put words in my mouth nor to declare the unseen of my intentions, which you know not.
- ayman asked raginggaijing to remove the reference because the verse did not literally say that.
- raginggaijin called ayman (and soon, myself as well) an unbeliever.
And the label still stands for Ayman. His own words prove to me he is not seeking guidance from Allah but striving to turn towards the pagan beliefs of Babel.
The verdict is still out on you though. I understand your desire to make peace between people who profess to believe.
What exactly makes me or ayman an unbeliever? The fact that we take issue with your reckless verse-quoting?
See the above and let us continue, shall we?
Ayman made the attack, I respond in kind. You seek to guard him, I respond in kind. May Allah guide me to a right better than this if I am wrong. I respond in kind to what I am given. Surah 16126
The idea that one cannot dispute the validity of a rendered interpretation without first giving a definite meaning himself is, quite simply, fallacious. So, because I don't know the exact meanings of certain concepts, I have to simply bow my head to what the scholars have stated the meanings are? Hardly.
Proofs were given. Those proofs are not what were disputed, but how I worded it.
He did not explicitly refute the central point. In fact, you both do not refute the central point.
You both attack the writer and criticized the writing without addressing the substance of the argument.Rhetoric fail.
These sorts of arguments have been used throughout history in all arenas of life. When abolitionists were trying to ban slavery in the U.S. for moral reasons, one common rejoinder from slave-owners was that there didn't exist a better economic system that could survive without slaves. In other words, they were saying "show us your proof that what we're doing is not right, show us how you'll replace our system." Do you see the similarity? Just because I don't know exactly how to replace the slave-holding system doesn't make the institution of slavery any more moral or correct. Lack of an alternative theory is not justification for the validity of the "mainstream" theory.
Show how Safa and Marwa are not signposts of Allah. Give proofs.
Show how Safa and Marwa did not exist during the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Give proofs if this is your claim.
Show how Safa and Marwa are not partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram. Give proofs if this is your claim.You have not addressed the argument I have proven Safa and Marwa are monuments of Allah that may be passed around when going on pilgrimage to the House. I have proven Safa and Marwa exist in the world today.
Prove what I have stated is not right.
Instead, you attack the writing. Proof of this claim is in your own words, which are quoted above. P
It's funny you espouse critical thinking, when it's quite clear you're content to not use it yourself. Additionally, I never said you have to be a scholar to understand the quran. Again, shades of gray. Just because the core message is simple does not mean that one cannot question the accepted mainstream interpretation of various concepts. I urge you to think critically, to study up on history to realize how things typically play out and indeed how they did play out in Islamic history, etc.
This is where you move from attacking the writing to Ad Hominem You attack the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the argument.
"And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of speech; and Allah knows your deeds.
And most certainly We will try you until We have known those among you who exert themselves hard, and the patient, and made your case manifest." Surah 4730-31I'm assuming you are here on this forum because you eschew the use of ahadith and realize there were many hypocrites who used ahadith to further their own agenda. If that is the case, why are you so diametrically opposed to the idea that similar actors used other methods to further their agenda? Namely, the forcing of meanings onto the text.
Because Allah is clear
Allah condemns hadiths Surah 7185,12111, 316, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750
"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449
?Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;? Surah 2118
The followers of Hadith cannot make up anything new, so they have to slowly, gradually, make the changes to the systems established by Allah. But in the end, they will always be the same All roads of disbelief lead back to Babel.
In order to feed the lie, the disbelievers have to have some Truth in it or it won't be believed.
We are to make pilgrimage to the House, using Safa and Marwa as beacons of Allah to guide us. We are not commanded to do anything at the House except remember Allah and what He has provided us, bring a goodly-gift/sacrifice to the House as sacrifice to be given to the believers (poor and rich alike), and to serve Allah.
No act of devotion in Pilgrimage except the sacrifice, which is buried today instead of given out. Surah 2228, 33-34, 2267, 2196, 6162,
"The life of this world is only idle sport and play, and if you believe and guard He will give you your rewards, and will not ask of you your possessions. If He should ask you for it and urge you, you will be niggardly, and He will bring forth your malice. Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need, and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you." Surah 4736-38
You say people go to the House in pilgrimage! I say "So? We are commanded to in the Quran." Surah 2125, 2158, 397, 52, 597
There are those who profess to be believers, but are not. Surah 28-9
There are those who seek to cover what Allah reveals. They earn their reward. Surah 2174-176What will be interesting is when I visit the House, what will they say when I turn my back on the Kaaba and face Masjid Al-Haram as commanded by Allah. Surah 2144,149,150
I am commanded to serve Allah and follow only what He revealed. I am commanded to be among the first to submit to Allah.
Insha'Allah, I will not die unless I am a believer.
Bear witness I submit to Allah.
Pray for guidance. Surah 245
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.
Peace.
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@hope4 At the moment no one can go into Arabia and do an independant archaeological digs to varify anything.
Many non-Muslims commit themselves to the logical fallacy of resting on "absence of evidence". And while archaeological undertakings in Mecca are not permitted, there is enough evidence for the academia to have denounced the anti-Islamic polemic of "challenging" Muhammad and Mecca as "shame" and "facile assumptions".
A 19er argued that there is no evidence of Mecca in pre-Islamic literature, and proposed that Becca is the city referenced. I asked him to find me the "all-popular" Becca in the pre-Islamic and post-Islamic literatures, and he is still looking for it. Again, he was playing the "absence of evidence" card, but little did he bother to think how he would deal with it if things were put the other way around. The practice of referring to an entity with more than one appellation is not unattested to in the Quran, and this thins his argument further.
In a diametrically opposite view, some non-Muslims have proposed Jerusalem as the referenced city. Not only is "Jerusalem" ever mentioned in the Quran verbatim, we do know the history of this city, possibly going back at least around three thousand years. So not only is this approach ignorant but also hypocritical in its nature. Maybe a group of Muslims can undertake an independent archaeological expedition out there; there is a good chance of further unearthing rampant polytheism which William Dever and others have repeatedly pointed out.
In all, two words can sum up the anti-Muslim polemic of the likes of Smith and Amari and other non-Muslims erroneous and hypocritical.
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Peace Raginggaijin,
You read the Quran and it states Safa and Marwa are sign posts for the believer. True or false, ayman?
What do you mean? Please translate the words and , if you know their meaning. It seems that you ignore their meaning.
Here, let me repost the ayat for you since you must have missed it.
"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
You look where Safa and Marwa are and they are two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram.You don't know what the words and mean. How do you expect people to believe you when you are clueless about their meaning? Translate them and we will see if they mean "two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram" in the Arabic language or if this is your pagan fantasy.
Now was that so hard?
Apparently it is hard for you since you don't even know the basics such as the meaning of and and are thus unable to translate them.
So the statement still stands
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158
If you did your research you would have known that.If you did your research then you would at least know what the words and mean in Arabic instead of lazily presenting nonsense that everyone can readily get from any cultist bearded Sunnis site.
Allah gave you a brain and a slew of resources at your fingertips. Use them
Thanks for the advice. I am trying, are you?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Raginggaijin,
What do you mean? Please translate the words and , if you know their meaning. It seems that you ignore their meaning.
You don't know what the words and mean. How do you expect people to believe you when you are clueless about their meaning? Translate them and we will see if they mean "two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram" in the Arabic language or if this is your pagan fantasy.
Apparently it is hard for you since you don't even know the basics such as the meaning of and and are thus unable to translate them.
If you did your research then you would at least know what the words and mean in Arabic instead of lazily presenting nonsense that everyone can readily get from any cultist bearded Sunnis site.
Thanks for the advice. I am trying, are you?
Peace,
Ayman
Transliterated Arabic
"Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAa-iri Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fa-inna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun"
"Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful, Knowing." Surah 2158
My friends and wife speak Arabic, even though I am still learning, FYI. You didn't think I haven't heard the 'you aren't a native Arabic speaker' argument before, did you? You didn't think we haven't checked the original Arabic Quran for clarification, did you?
Give proofs of Safa and Marwa not monuments/signposts/beacons of Allah.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are not partially contained within Masjid Al-Haram.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are man-made.Give proofs of something.
You have given nothing to refute the proofs provided. You have done nothing but attack the characteristics and authority of the writer.
You resort to Ad Hominem as the basis of your rhetoric? Is an attempt at invalidation all you are able to provide as proofs?
Give proofs or keep silent, it's wiser.
Remember Explanation is not proof.
To you is your recompense. To me is my recompense.
Peace.
