al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
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Selam RA786
The question is how to prove it? ancient maps might be the answer if any of you have any lying around ;D
peace
Brother Rajj... explained to me that Ancient Roman Mansucripts beared the sames Safa and Mawra (for these hills), as well as ANY search on google.
So the question now is are we going to DENY Calling these two Hills Safa and Mawrah because We cannot Find an Ancient Map that says So?-Thus being Guilty of a Logical Fallacy?Or are we going to ACCEPT these two Hills as "Safa and Mawra" because All of our Reasearch "SO FAR" says So...?--Thus STILL guilty of a Logical Fallacy?
I choose to Accept this Theory until Proven otherwise. rather then stay in Limbo like an Agnostic not being able to Prove or disprove ANYTHING.I read the Same Thread on Edips 19.org and had some interesting things here http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/55649/0/?srch=Hajj#msg_55649
I think that the Quran IS talking about Safa and Mawra being Mountains... All mof my logic so far points More to this then to Goats milk and Stone for sacrificing that you make circles around.
D peace
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Peace,
the only mountain named in the Reading is Tur sinina, Mt Sinai, and nobody knows where it is. Safa and Marwa are not described as mountain in the Reading cause NO TUR before the nouns safa and marwa. The same occurs for valley of Bakka, no valley "wadi" before Bakka as AL "bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan " (Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley to Tuwa) 7816
To make it short no way to know if it is a noun or a proper name in arabic, how do you think Allah swt would do to let you know it?
Regards
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Peace,
the only mountain named in the Reading is Tur sinina, Mt Sinai, and nobody knows where it is. Safa and Marwa are not described as mountain in the Reading cause NO TUR before the nouns safa and marwa. The same occurs for valley of Bakka, no valley "wadi" before Bakka as AL "bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan " (Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley to Tuwa) 7816
To make it short no way to know if it is a noun or a proper name in arabic, how do you think Allah swt would do to let you know it?
Regards
Salaam Herb thanks for your reply. okay so they are not called "mtountains"...more specifically Knolls or Hills. whatever.
Nobody knows where mt.sinai is? I've heard that it is in Saudi Arabia. have you seen the documentary on that?..who knows...
anyway...to me the context makes more sense as (saf and mawra being hills)What makes more sense to you herb? How do you intrepret the verese?
Peace. -
Peace all
While I am pretty busy at the moment preparing for a conference, hajj is something that is currently a subject that I am investigating, so I thought I'd most this contribution.
The following is something I posted on another thread that seemed to come to an abrupt end after my post. I'm not sure why this happened as I would was looking forward to some input on my findings. While these findings are still a work in progress, I have copied & pasted from the other thread below. I look forward to some comments & hope that it adds some food for thought in the current thread.
Peace All
I have recently started looking at the concept of hajj in preparation for our quranic discussion group. I am in the process of studying it & have looked at 2158. This is how I have interpreted it. As I said, my study of this subject is a work in progress, so your comments will be welcome.
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I have found to mean "the clarification" based on its primary root verb meaning of "he clarified/brought clarity, etc."
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When looking at , I found it difficult to pinpoint a root verb for what most consider to be the root, i.e "miim-raa-waw". I then considered the possibility of the root being "miim-raa-alif". This pointed to a root verb indcating a process by which one extracts that which is wholesome/good, etc.
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seems to indicate intimate knowledge from its root verb.
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When I looked at , I found that the it incorporated the idea of a debate/argument in the sense of overcoming someone through the use of evidence, which seems to be a common understanding on this forum. I also noticed that "to aim at something or having a goal in mind", also it has a meaning of "curing or repairing" something. This last meaning may be mostly in relation to the curing of a head wound, which could be extended to " curing the wrong thinking about something (or maybe this extension is stretching it too far?). Either way, I have come to a meaning of "aiming at the curing of wrong thinking through the use of evidence" or "correcting an erroneous concept through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments".
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I was surprised to see that the word is derived from a root that carries a meaning of spending the night awake considering any number of things (good or bad).
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The word , being form 8 of the verb would indicate the act that results if the form 1 verb was initiated. Therefore I think that in this case it would indicate that the living/acting out of the conclusions reached through the deliberation of , which at its culmination will provide the most convincing evidence that of the decisions taken since the benefits will be plain for all to see.
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indicates acknowledgment of efforts by providing abundantly.
Using these conclusions, this is how I would interpret the verse
Truly the clarification and extraction of what is good from the intimate knowledge possessed by God is for those who aim at correcting/curing/repairing erroneous concepts through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments, staying awake at night to ponder these concepts or living the conclusions reached through such deliberation and in so doing provide the ultimate proof of these concepts through their concrete results. There is no blame on him if he moves about and attaches himself to them (clarification and extraction). And they who effect the obedience of what is good, then truly God is acknowledging of the efforts of such people by providing abundant nourishment as proof of their success, Knowledgable.
Imraan
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Thank you Wakas, Ill check it out. D
Thanks hope4 for that article at Scribes, I read it...
Here the thing though, IF We are to believe that Jerusalam in where the Masjid-Al-harem is (hajj to be condictued)
Is this Still possible in these days? Especially with a totally satanic-zinost government in power in isreal?
This may be off topic, i just find it ironic that the City of Peace and Supposed to be City of God is now totally pegan,zionist,satanic and non-religious.and another Question. To prevent Confusion...Why doesnt The Quran Just SAY the City where Hajj is to be Performed?
Like just SAY Jerusalam or Mecca?(Allah forgive me for questioning,)
And Why wouldnt Muhammad Convnice the Sahaba (and Muslims) to Travel to Jerusalem with him and then Put and END to the Kab'ah?
Really think about that Question...again...WHY DIDNT MUHAMMAD Go with the Muslims to Jerusalam and put an END to the Kab'ah?
WHY? I would really really like to know... -
Salaam all,
Please check this page and search for sapha or safa, we can get some understanding about the origin.
Copied from this link... http//islamicweb.com/bible/good3.htm
........................................Now, what does the word Mispa mean? It is generally translated into a "watch-tower." It belongs to that class of Semitic nouns - Asma Zarf - which take or drive their name from the thing that they enclose or contain. Mispa is the place or building which derives its name from sapha, an archaic word for "stone." The usual word for stone in Hebrew is iben, and in Arabic hajar. The Syriac for stone is kipa. But safa or sapha seems to be common to them all for some particular object or person when designated as a "stone." Hence the real meaning of Mispa is the locality or place in which a sapha or stone is set and fixed. It will be seen that when this name, Mispa, was first given to the stone erected upon a heap of stone blocks, there was no edifice built around it. It is the spot upon which a sapha rests, that is called Mispa.
Before explaining the signification of the noun sapha I have to tax again the patience of those of my readers who are not acquainted with the Hebrew. The Arabic language lacks the p sound in its alphabet just as much as do the Hebrew and other Semitic languages, in which the letter p, like g, is sometimes soft and is pronounced like f or ph. In English, as a rule, the Semitic and Greek words containing f sound are transliterated and written by the insertion of "ph" instead of "f," e.g. Seraph, Mustapha, and Philosophy. It is in accordance with this rule that I prefer to write this word sapha to safa.
------------- Footnote (1) The Bible which I consult does not contain the so-called deutro- canonical or Apocryphal books of the Old Testament. This Bible is published by the American Bible Society (New York 1893 ) . The title runs thus Kthahhi Qaddishi Dadiathiqi Wadiathiqi Khadatt An Shad-wath Poushaqa dmin lishani qdimaqi. Matha 'ta d'dasta. Biblioneta d' America . ------------- End of footnote
When Jesus Christ surnamed his first disciple Shim'on (Simon) with the significant title of "Petros" (Peter), he must evidently have had in his mind this ancient sacred Sapha which had been lost long ago! But, alas! we cannot positively set out the exact word which he expressed in his own language. The Greek form Petros in the masculine gender - Petra in the feminine - is so unclassical and unGreek, that one is astonished at its being ever adopted by the Churches. Did Jesus or any other Jew ever dream of calling the fisherman Bar Yona, Petros? Decidedly not. The Syriac version called Pshitta has frequently rendered this Greek form into Kipha (Kipa). And the very fact that even the Greek text has preserved the original name "Kephas," which the English versions have reproduced in the shape of "Cephas," shows that Christ spoke the Aramaic language and gave the surname "Kipha" to his principal disciple.
The old Arabic versions of the New Testament have frequently written St. Peter's name as "Sham'un' as-Sapha"; that is to say, "Simon the Stone." The words of Christ "Thou art Peter," etc., have their equivalent in the Arabic version in the form of "Antas-Sapha" (Matt. xvi. 18; John i. 42, etc.).
It follows, therefore, that if Simon is the Sapha, the Church which was to be built on it would naturally be the Mispha. That Christ should liken Simon to Sapha and the Church to Mispha is very remarkable; but when I come to divulge the mystery hidden in this similitude and the wisdom embodied in the Sapha, then it must be accepted as the most marvelous truth of Prophet Muhammad's merit to his glorious title 'THE MUSTAPHA'!
From what has been stated above, our curiosity would naturally lead one to ask the following questions -
(a) Why did the Muslims and Unitarian descendants of Abraham choose a stone to perform their religious service on or around it? (b) Why should this particular stone be named sapha? (c) What is the writer driving at? And so on - perhaps several others.
The stone was selected as the best suitable material upon which a traveling devotee offered his sacrifice, poured his pure oil and wine, (1) and performed his religious services around it. It was more than this; this stone was erected to commemorate the vows and certain promises which a prophet or righteous man made to his Creator, and the revelation he received from God. Consequently, it was a sacred monument to perpetuate the memory and the sacred character of a great religious event. For such a purpose no other material could surpass the stone. Not only does the solidity and durability of the stone make it suitable for that purpose, but its mere simplicity, cheapness, worthlessness in a lonely place would guarantee it against any attraction of human avarice or enmity to steal or destroy it. As is well known, the Law of Moses strictly forbids to hew or carve the stones of the altar. The stone called Sapha was to be absolutely left natural; no images, inscriptions, or engravings were to be wrought upon it, lest any one of these should be worshipped in time to come by the ignorant people. Gold, iron silver, or any other metal, could not answer all these qualities required in the simple stone. It will be understood, therefore, that the purest, the most durable, eligible, and the safest material for a religious and sacred monument could be none other than the stone.
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Well I read this Book created by One of the Free-minders...(i think it was Lyth)?
called the National Republic...
I guess it pretty much sums it all up and explains safa and mawrah as being Stone for sacrfices...AND sighns/markers which is then connected with the Temple Mount Rock Dome in Jerusalam.It goes into the Calendar and Ramadan....which I was totally confused...
(Ramadan AND the Night of Decree/Conception of Jesus IS in December/winter Solance?!??! as well as 10 days?) ??? )you can read it here http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR.pdf
So IF the Hajj AND Qibla IS supposed to be at the Rock Dome...Do we Circle that and say La-illaha-illala-wadahulashareek-alah? rotfl
(to be honest I was looking foreward to Circle a Building 7 times screaming the Shahada! yes)
and what about Praying/Prostrating at it like We (or used to) do at the Ka'bah?
Do you Freeminders Prostrate to the Dome of Rock?
Do you Freeminders Plan on going to the Dome of Rock for Hajj anytime Soon?
Has ANYone here on this site ever went to do the Hajj their yet?Peace/Salaam
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Peace RA786,
If you use the search tool, you will find lots of debates about qibla/masjid alharam/Becca/Safa and Marwa /Hajj etc..
My personal conclusion are
- qibla (accept God direction= the good path) , doing good things and prohibit the wrong is the good direction
- masjid al haram= is not a location, I am studying it and my searches lead me to massajid ="religious practice" while haram is the forbiden, other seems to think it means "The Institution of Obedience".
- Becca= with crowd
- safa and marwa (stone, camel or goat, clarification, and extraction), for this one I am more with bro 1CELOSTNOWFOUND findings.
- Hajj= argumentation/debate
- hajj al beit= debate/argue for God's "social" system
Peace
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Peace RA786,
If you use the search tool, you will find lots of debates about qibla/masjid alharam/Becca/Safa and Marwa /Hajj etc..
My personal conclusion are
- qibla (accept God direction= the good path) , doing good things and prohibit the wrong is the good direction
- masjid al haram= is not a location, I am studying it and my searches lead me to massajid ="religious practice" while haram is the forbiden, other seems to think it means "The Institution of Obedience".
- Becca= with crowd
- safa and marwa (stone, camel or goat, clarification, and extraction), for this one I am more with bro 1CELOSTNOWFOUND findings.
- Hajj= argumentation/debate
- hajj al beit= debate/argue for God's "social" system
Peace
Salaam herbman, Thanks for your reply.
I dont agree about your view of the Qibla. It would seem odd to me for God to repeat himself in different ways...like when he says "Do Good and forbid evil"...and later on say "Qibla"...(meaning the same)...instead of just using one word all the time if he was going to say that.
and then also in Context. why would the People of the Book Argue about Gods Change the path of Direction, and then Change it back later? and then Visit the Holy Shrine ? ???Its seems much to vauge and broad terms that are almost identical. incredibly simple, and I think incompatible with the Context..
(But I am not well read in this subject, im just speaking of things I dont really know... )If Hajj is a Debate/Argument for God's System... what is the purpose of shaving our heads, meeting at a place, sacrificing something, and only if we have the funds to do so? It doesnt seem like that makes much sense to me...
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Peace RA,
This should answer your questions
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.
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Masjid Al Aqsa is a reference to the mosque of the prophet in medina and not the one in jerusalem. verse 171 says that masjid al aqsa is the one whose surroundings Allah has blessed? Now we all know the surroundings of jerusalem are not blessed at all....lol
the jerusalem mosque was not even built during the times of the prophet himself.
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Masjid Al Aqsa is a reference to the mosque of the prophet in medina and not the one in jerusalem. verse 171 says that masjid al aqsa is the one whose surroundings Allah has blessed? Now we all know the surroundings of jerusalem are not blessed at all....lol
the jerusalem mosque was not even built during the times of the prophet himself.
The above highlighting is from me.
Salaam Dear szuberi,
Do you think the Prophet's mosque was already built while the Prophet himself still living in Mecca before he immigrated to Medina?
Peace,
Khalil -
wasalam brother
lets see the verse again in full..
171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the masjid al haram to the masjid al aqsa which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer
there are two things to note in this verse.
- the night journey of the prophet from masjiid al haram to masjid al aqsa
- masjid al aqsa is the masjid whose surroundings are blessed by Allah
hadith followers use this verse to propogate the night journey of the prophet on a flying carpet to the seven heavens and then enroute to the non existent masjid in jerusalem at the time. this cant be true since the surroundings of the masjid in jerusalem have been marred by bloodshed and voilence and shirk from day one.....nor the event of the night journey to the heavens is mentioned in anyway in the Quran. so this reference to the distant temple can be none other than the masjid in medina.
whether the actual masjid was in place completely at that time in medina is not 100% revelant. the reference is for a gathering/worship place that is distant and is blessed by God. the hijra is mentioned in the Quran and so is yathrib.
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Peace
(quote )
"Do you Freeminders Prostrate to the Dome of Rock?" .Nope , perhaps some do and some don't . I , bow ( respect ) and obey ( prostrate ) to "The Law" wherever I am . My understanding is that
Rukuu and Sujuud mean "respect and "obey" the law where-ever we are . I am comfortable with " The Inviolable Institution " or simply "The Law" for Masjid al Haram .
I stop praying facing The Rock and Black-Stone in Makkah ages ago .
Peace to you all .
almarh0m
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Peace
(quote )
"Do you Freeminders Prostrate to the Dome of Rock?" .Nope , perhaps some do and some don't . I , bow ( respect ) and obey ( prostrate ) to "The Law" wherever I am . My understanding is that
Rukuu and Sujuud mean "respect and "obey" the law where-ever we are . I am comfortable with " The Inviolable Institution " or simply "The Law" for Masjid al Haram .
I stop praying facing The Rock and Black-Stone in Makkah ages ago .
Peace to you all .
almarh0m
Please sir if you don't mind can you translat Al marhom for me?
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This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia under 'Festivals'.
http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp
The Hebrews designated a festival by the word "ag" (the Arabic "ajj", originally implying a choragic rhythmic procession around the shrine of an idol or an altar (see Wellhausen, "Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 3106); but later, without specific reference to this usage, connoting a day or season of joy ("ag" and "simah" are correlatives; comp. Amos 710; Deut.1614). As fixed festivals occurred at appointed times, they came to be known as "mo'adim" or "mo'ade Yhwh"; and these became the technical terms for the prescribed holidays, with one exception (Lev. 232) always connoting festivals to the exclusion of the Sabbath and New Moon (Ex. 1310, 2315, 3418; Num. 92- 7; Num. 282; Deut. 166; Isa. 114, Isa. 3320), while "ag" denotes more specifically the three agricultural festivals (Ex. 2314), or the Festival of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles (Lev. 236, Lev. 2334), or the latter only (Judges 2119; Ezek. Xlv25; II Chron. 53; see Bertheau on II Chron. 78-9).
?You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.? Exo. 2315
??e-a hammaw ti?mr ?i?a ym?m t?al maw ka??er i??i lmw? e? h?? k?-w y? mimmiryim wl?-yr?? fnay r?qm? Exo 2315
?You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.? Exo. 2316
?wa haqq?r bik?r? ma?ey ??er tizra? baeh wa h?sif b? ha??n? b?sp ?e-ma?ey min-haeh? Exo. 2316
?You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year?s end.? Exo. 3422
?wa ?u? ta?eh l bik?r? q?r i?m wa h?s?f tq?fa ha??n?? Exo. 3422
Agricultural Festivals.
The harvest is the natural provocation for the farmer to rejoice and to manifest his gratitude to the Godhead. The oldest traditions (Judges 2119; I Sam. 13) mention a yearly festival of thanksgiving ("hillulim" Judges 927) after the vintage; and it is this festival which even later is called the festival (I Kings 82, 865; 1232, 1233; comp. Ezek. xlv. 25; Neh. 814). It was celebrated first by dancing in the vineyards (Judges xxi. 21); later, by processions to festal halls ("leshakot"; I Sam. 922), with music (Isa. 3029)?at Shiloh, for example (I Sam. 13), at Beth -el (I Kings 1232), and at Jerusalem (I Kings 638, 82; Isa. 291). As these festivals increased, the necessity arose of regulating them and of fixing them for certain seasons of the year; hence, in Isa. 291 allusion is made to a regular cycle of the "aggim" circuiting the year.Hajj/Hag Ha-Sukkot Exo. 109, Exo. 51, Exo. 318, Exo. 134, Exo. 2314-17, Exo 3422-24, Deut 1613-16, Neh. 89-12, Neh. 21, Lev. 239-21, Est. 89
Surah 2059
Baca (Hebrew 'emeq habakka' Psalm 841-12, Surah 396The Jewish Encyclopedia was very informative on circambulation
Extension of Sukkot.
The seventh day of the festival is distinguished as the "great Hosha'na" (the Gospel accounts of Jesus' entry on Palm Sunday seem to have confused this with Pesaḥ, or "the day of the palm-and willow-branches" (Suk. 42-45). Carrying in their hands branches at least eleven feet long, the celebrants make seven circuits around the desk, chanting "Hosha'na" (Ps. cxviii. 25), and then beat the floor with the branches. This custom, said to be of Mosaic origin, is undoubtedly an adaptation of a Babylonian rite (Yer. 'Ab. Zarah iv.).
Read more http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=125&letter=F&search=festivals#ixzz14zyFgyVJ
The Quran details exactly what we are to do for Hajj, and what to do if you cannot make the trip.
None of the pagan rituals are in the Quran, and that includes stoning an idol or circambulation.Allah also gives warning
"And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say Surely Allah?s guidance, that is the guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper." Surah 2120The Royal Institute of British Architects wrote papers on Jerusalem and the Arabian country in 1878-79. They discuss the Byzantine-Christian architecture of the Dome of the Rock in the first part, as well as the mine El-Marwah in their journeys around Midian towards Mecca.
http//books.google.com/books?id=6utEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=mochura+arabia&source=bl&ots=Wy07wOGHko&sig=k10Pd0IhYv6YNfcyDXmU8RKMWMM&hl=en&ei=57KcS8DZLoOIsgOUo_l9&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mochura%20arabia&f=false
http//books.google.com/books?id=4cxrdTIsUaIC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=el+bada+el+maru&source=bl&ots=Tu09ZMGcwC&sig=DZvZgqs4luabSRI6BlTYWxF2q20&hl=en&ei=AB_YTJTdG5GcsQPkypWNCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=el%20bada%20el%20maru&f=false
Map of ancient Arabia
http//www.wdl.org/en/item/2923/zoom.htmlBe careful of the Yahudians posing as Muslims to lead you astray. That includes all those who say the Dome of the Rock is our qiblah.
Al-Aqsa Masjid is the Temple destroyed twice. Surah 171,174-7,1760
"Subhana allathee asra biAAabdihi laylan mina almasjidi alharami ila almasjidi al-aqsa allathee barakna hawlahu linuriyahu min ayatina innahu huwa alssameeAAu albaseeru" Surah 171The Kaaba is the place of sacrifice, where offerings are taken Surah 595-97, 2233
Sacrifice (nusukin) Surah 2196, 6162, 2234Again, the Quran is clear on what to do if you can make the trip, and if you cannot.
Peace.
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Salaam all,
wasalam brother
lets see the verse again in full..
171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the masjid al haram to the masjid al aqsa which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer
there are two things to note in this verse.
- the night journey of the prophet from masjiid al haram to masjid al aqsa
- masjid al aqsa is the masjid whose surroundings are blessed by Allah
Where is "The Prophet" in 171 ??? Do you mean "His Servant" means "The Prophet" ??? Then how about 191 ??? Again "The Prophet" here ???
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.
Mohammed M. Khan
