al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa
-
peace bro Ayman, all,
You may find it interesting to consider the sequence and tenses in 2158 and then the use of "and whoever volunteered better" in relation to the claim of Safa and Marwah being mountains.
At the very least, this means going between Safa and Marwah is optional according to AQ.
Check out the tafsir of Al-Jalalayn at www.altafsir.com
...this was revealed when the Muslims were averse to this , because the pagan Arabs used to circumambulate them, and there was an idol atop each mountain which they used to stroke. It is reported from Ibn ?Abbs that this pacing is not obligatory, based on the fact that when no sin can be incurred, the context implies free choice. Al-Shfi? and others, however, considered it to be a pillar . The Prophet made clear its obligatory aspect when he said that, ?God has prescribed for you the pacing ?, as reported by al-Bayhaq and others; and he also said, ?Begin with what God has begun?, meaning, al-Saf, as reported by Muslim; and whoever volunteers (tatawwa?a a variant reading is yattawa?, the ta? here being assimilated) good, that is, any good deed such as circumambulation or other, that is not obligatory on him; God is Grateful, for such a deed and rewards that person for it, Knowing, it.
Surprise surprise, more variation and controversy surrounding a suspect rendering of the text ;D
-
What does Safa and Marwa mean? Asad's note
126 Lit., "God's symbols". The space between the two low outcrops of rock called As-Safa and Al-Marwah, situated in Mecca in the immediate vicinity of the Ka'bah, is said to have been the scene of Hagar's suffering when Abraham, following God's command, abandoned her and their infant son Ishmael in the desert
I hope any non-Muslim reading this will not be put off by Asad's note; he is pretty well referenced.
-
What does Safa and Marwa mean? Asad's note
126 Lit., "God's symbols". The space between the two low outcrops of rock called As-Safa and Al-Marwah, situated in Mecca in the immediate vicinity of the Ka'bah, is said to have been the scene of Hagar's suffering when Abraham, following God's command, abandoned her and their infant son Ishmael in the desert
I hope any non-Muslim reading this will not be put off by Asad's note; he is pretty well referenced.
Non-muslims who are versed in the Bible know the story.
Peace.
-
Peace Raging,
Give proofs of Safa and Marwa not monuments/signposts/beacons of Allah.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are not partially contained within Masjid Al-Haram.If you look up their Arabic meaning in a Classical Arabic dictionary then you would know.
The word "safa" means "a smooth stone" (on which food is prepared) or could also mean "the livestock which are free from defects".
The word "marwa" means the white stone on which a fire is made (for cooking).If you look up the word "sha3air" which you translate as "monuments/signposts/beacons", you will see the same exact word used in relation to livestock (2236)
As you can see the "sha3air" have to do with livestock and not with running between any mountains as a symbol for looking for water for a newborn as part of pagan birth celebrations.
Give proofs Safa and Marwa are man-made.
See what brother Wakas said. Also, the purpose of "hajj" makes it clear that they are manmade. No where in the great reading it is mentioned that the purpose of "hajj" is to re-enact a ritual that symbolizes finding water for a newborn!! This is all related to the manmade pagan birth celebrations with the purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn" if one performs such mindless rituals.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace,
sometime ago I made a translation trial of the verse
safaa from root
sad fa waw
to have pure/good intentionmarwa
could be from root mim-ra-waw see Lane page 2702
hamza is on top of waw
basically means virtueTay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.My understanding of the verse is then
Indeed the good intention and the virtue are practices from the God, anyone Hajj the Beit or i3tamara no sin on him to drew near these 2,
-
Peace Raging,
If you look up their Arabic meaning in a Classical Arabic dictionary then you would know.
The word "safa" means "a smooth stone" (on which food is prepared) or could also mean "the livestock which are free from defects".
The word "marwa" means the white stone on which a fire is made (for cooking).Much better, as I know where you are coming from now, however 'could also' isn't something I want to base my soul upon. May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Could you show me where in the Quran 'Safa' is used as 'a smooth stone'?
Or where in the Quran 'Marwa' is used as 'the white stone on which a fire is made'?
If you have these, please share them.
If not, I return your gaze to the word 'stone' in both of the translations you gave.Can you tell me what mountains are made of?
Thank you for this information. It may very well be that Safa and Marwa are where the sacrifices are to be prepared and cooked for the pilgrim masses.
You increased my faith. May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.If you look up the word "sha3air" which you translate as "monuments/signposts/beacons", you will see the same exact word used in relation to livestock (2236)
As you can see the "sha3air" have to do with livestock and not with running between any mountains as a symbol for looking for water for a newborn as part of pagan birth celebrations.
Where did I say you are to run between mountains? I have not. Do not resort to Ad Hominem and double-blind rhetoric; it invalidates your argument and is unbecoming of you.
If you go around a mountain, you are passing by it on the way to your destination. There is no hint of a ritual, as you know the word for 'goes around' is not the word for 'run in between'. I have never said we are to perform any ritual outside of the sacrifice of cattle. Do not add to your burden of sin by adding lies about what I profess, Ayman.
I stated originally the term is signs, and as found by the interpretors the word is translated as ceremonies/symbols/rites/waymarks/sacrifice/beacon/waymark . These are signs of Allah for our devotions to Him. Allow me to repost
Acts of devotion for every nation Surah 2234, 2267
Thank you for the additional information on (shaAAa-iri). I will add Surah 2236, as well as Surah 52, 2232 in which we find the word used.
Put 'rites' in there and see what you come up with. I will leave it up to you do come to your own conclusions, though I ask that you pray to Allah for guidance.
This will help prove to the hadith followers that what they follow is not what is in the Quran, and the word (shaAAa-iri) is proof of this They do not follow the rites given to them by Allah. No where is the 'Black Stone Kiss', 'Obelisk Stoning', 'Hagar Run', or 'ZamZam Drink' a rite of Allah. And the sacrifices are buried instead of given to the poor and the beggar.
Alhamdulillah. This truly increased my iman.
See what brother Wakas said. Also, the purpose of "hajj" makes it clear that they are manmade. No where in the great reading it is mentioned that the purpose of "hajj" is to re-enact a ritual that symbolizes finding water for a newborn!! This is all related to the manmade pagan birth celebrations with the purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn" if one performs such mindless rituals.
Move on, Ayman. No where have I stated we are to run between two mountains, nor stated we are to perform any of the pagan ritual acts. You are fixated. Stop sulking and get over it.
Note This information you provided does not disprove the two mountains are beacons or rites of Allah for those going on Pilgrimage. You've actually proven Safa and Marwa are made of stone. All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the worlds!
I can say that we know where the House is located because you have to go around Safa and Marwa to get there. They are among the signs of Allah, among the rites prescribed by Allah for the believer. Now if you are correct, than that clarifies what is to be done with the cattle sacrificed as per Surah 2236. Allah is truly Bountiful, Provider.
And as for herbman, the statement also stands I do not leave my soul to rest on possibilities.
Give proofs.
Explanation is not proof.
"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it interpretation but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding." Surah 37
I believe in it. It is all from Allah. All praise belongs to Him and Him alone.
Peace.
-
The idea of safa and marwa being optional is pretty interesting. It would indeed be some feast without safa (cooking stone and livestock) and marwa (cooking fire).
@raginggaijin Non-muslims who are versed in the Bible know the story.
But can a non-Muslim (particularly Jew/Christian) ever accept Abraham in Mecca? Why do you think Crone-worship is so rampant amongst them? Why all the propganda?
But there are some good eggs. A Christian once referred me to a non-Muslim website regarding its classical Arabic rendering of an Arabic word; when I showed him what the commentaries actually had to say he was amused at the length of deception some non-Muslims go to. So it is better to check out the classic Arabic rendering yourself.
Regarding the words Safa and Marwa, this is what Tabatabai says in his AlMizan
as-Safa (hard smooth rock); al-Marwah (hard stone)
I might later post what Lane's Classical Arabic Lexicon has to say about 'safa' (Book I, p. 1703).
-
Peace raginggaijin, Wakas, TheGod , all
I can say that we know where the House is located because you have to go around Safa and Marwa to get there
Why base soul upon? As AQ clearly implies whatever safa and marwa are, they are optional.
The idea of safa and marwa being optional is pretty interesting. It would indeed be some feast without safa (cooking stone and livestock) and marwa (cooking fire).
in my humble opinion, Brother Wakas and TheGod missed a little detail, but Brother raginggaijin had obviously lied
OK, Let's read this verse again
(2158
Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAairi Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fainna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun
2158
"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional, it is GOING AROUND THEM which is OPTIONAL. Hence , raginggaijin's claim that you HAVE to GO around Them IN ORDER to reach THE HOUSE is absolutly FALSE , and that causes his "circular Argument" (he calls it Proof brickwall ) to crash !!
Moreover, even IF we assume that
1- safa and marwa = two small mountains.
2- shaAiri = signs
3- yaTTaWafa = Going around
4- Hajj = Pilgrimageit'll still be clear from ANY translation of the verse that
1 - one can do the "HAJJ" even if he Does NOT ''yaTTaWafa" by "Safa and Marwa" !! and so, whatever the true meaning of the words between " " actually is.
2 - one can still do "yaTTaWafa" by "safa and marwa" without having his "Hajj" nullified !! and so, whatever the true meaning of the words between " " actually is.i hope i This helps.
@raiginggaijin
is "there is no blame if you do this" sounds for you like "you have to do this" ??
is what i wrote above resort to any kind of Ad HOMINEM and Double-blind Rhetoric ?Salam
-
@quickduck as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional
That's a fine observation. But wakas says that whatever safa and marwa be, the Quran clearly implies that they are optional. Looks like he is also obviously lying? (Looks like meat's back on the menu, guys)
What do you think about the "khayran" part of the verse?
-
@quickduck as you can see, it is not the safaa and marwa that are optional
That's a fine observation. But wakas says that whatever safa and marwa be, the Quran clearly implies that they are optional. Looks like he is also obviously lying? (Looks like meat's back on the menu, guys)
No, i read from brother Wakas quite a lot, he may mistake or miss details (like all of us do) but i never caught him lying.
What do you think about the "khayran" part of the verse?
We should first translate the word "taTaWWa3a" . the word "Khayran" is not the big deal
as far as i know, the word "tatawwa3" (ع in Today's arabic means "being volunteer"
i think i should look further for more translations to see if it fits the context. but the very context of this verse is a problem because we all don't agree yet on the true meaning of the several keywords in that same verse ( safa and marwa, hajj, yaTTawafa, etc...)salam
-
""Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice of worshiping and going around stone idols and tells the Hajj visitors its no blame even if they go around the stones as a ritual or unknowingly?
-
""Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice of worshiping and going around stone idols and tells the Hajj visitors its no blame even if they go around the stones as a ritual or unknowingly?
Of Course not.
And that leads us to the FACT that the traditional translation/meaning could be nothing else than False, thus resulting from pagan beliefs. )
Salam
-
@quickduck Why double standards? If wakas can make a mistake so can somebody else.
What do you think "being volunteer" for khayr implies?
I might have caught one. Watch.
@amin So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice
Where did you get that God wants to highlight anything as "something a pagan practice"?
-
"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them.""
Just my question, based on the translation above. since in there.. "there is no blame on him if he goes round them."
Even we consider those "Safa and Marwah are mountains, can you explain if the above translation is right, what God means by the words highlighted? -
Jeez, again
@amin So God wants to highlight the going around stones as something like a pagan practice
Where did you get that God wants to highlight anything as "something like a pagan practice"?
The "modify" button is your friend, it avoids double-posting.
Why double standards? If wakas can make a mistake so can somebody else.
it is not resort of double standards, making mistakes is not the big deal, not to admit them IS .
raginggaijin stills believes in "Final Fantasy XIII-like" stories where Muhammed traveled from "Al-Masjid al-Haram" to "Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa" riding "the Buraq" (which is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place its hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. ref al-Bukhari). This very "GOD of WAR-Like" Story is where the myth of five daily salat find its root (and only). And it is because of this same Legend that some believes that "al-masjid al haram" is in Mecca, and "al-masjid al aqsa" is in Jerusalem.
salam
-
I avoid using 'modify' button. But I like to see it all the same.
Let us see which one of them admits to his mistake.
Did you hear raginggaijin say all that? This is serious. Solemn.
What about the "being volunteer" for khayr. What does it refer to? Any inputs on that?
