al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa

Wakas

peace raginggaijin, all,

Re 53
Can you provide evidence for your translation and implication of it being any stone set up? If/when you provide it, please also explain to us why the act of killing an animal on any stone surface irrespective of use is wrong, thanks.

As a side note, there may or may not be significance to the subordinating conjunction of "wa-an" in-between the statements "and what is sacrificed on stones set up" AND "that you divide by the arrows".

RA786

Well,
I've Read some of the Quran's Ayats on the Hajj, and the House (Shrine) and have been so far left with this Conclusion.

The BlackStone So far Is NOT found in the Quran
The Foot Steps, and the Stoneing of the Devil are also So far NOT found in the Quran.
3)There is ALOT ALOT ALOT of Innovations in Islam that arent in the Quran.

So, with this being said, We Need to Establish a Common Understanding on what Hajj really is.

Where is Hajjj (pilgrimage to the house that abraham and Ishmael built where he was to be sacrificed that is made to be to Meditate and Pray at while Praising Allah Alone?) -I so far believe it to be the Kabah in Mecca.
What Do you Actually "DO" at Hajj once you get there?
-So far All I know of Is A) Pray/Meditate B) Feed the Poor and C) Make an Offereing ....as well as Entereing With your Head Shaven.

So is that Basically All Hajj is about? How about Circling it while Saying La-illaha Illala Wadahula Shareekalah.?
I Know Ayaman has said this Circling around it is Pegan, however Could Saying La-illahaillala^ then Nullify the pegan-ness? Since you are not attributing anyother name to Allah nor are you doing anything (Pegan)....I've heard that it represents the 7 universal Planes or Heavens Btw....

So,Question for Ayman.
Ayman, have you done Hajj or plan on doing it? Meaning, in eather Mecca OR Jerusalam or Where ever you think it to be? do you plan on doing it?
What is the Official Quranist Hajj Proceedure? Is there any "Organized" Quranist understanding on what and where Hajj is so that Us Quranists can Actually "Do" it the "Right" way?

I think it Deffinatly Is A real thing, and would like to know how to go about doing it.

raginggaijin

peace raginggaijin, all,

Re 53
Can you provide evidence for your translation and implication of it being any stone set up?

Aside from every translator stating this? Sure thing.

"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama alkhamru waalmaysiru waal-ansabu waal-azlamu rijsun min AAamali alshshaytani faijtaniboohu laAAallakum tuflihoona" Surah 590

They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043

If/when you provide it, please also explain to us why the act of killing an animal on any stone surface irrespective of use is wrong, thanks.

It is wrong because Allah says do not do it.

"The apostle believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles; We make no difference between any of His apostles; and they say We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness, and to Thee is the eventual course." Surah 2285

As a side note, there may or may not be significance to the subordinating conjunction of "wa-an" in-between the statements "and what is sacrificed on stones set up" AND "that you divide by the arrows".

That's your choice, Wakas. No one is making you do it.

May Allah spare the believers from the chastisement of the Fire.

Peace.

Wakas

Peace raginggaijin,

Aside from every translator stating this? Sure thing.

Every translator does not say this, i.e. "stone set up". Most translators are more specific or clarify what they mean, e.g. see Asad's notes. To refute your claim of "every translator", see here http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/3/default.htm

"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama alkhamru waalmaysiru waal-ansabu waal-azlamu rijsun min AAamali alshshaytani faijtaniboohu laAAallakum tuflihoona" Surah 590

They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043

Thanks for admitting they are not mere "stones". So, can we now assume you see a significant difference between "stones" and "stones set up"? Perhaps you too, like most translators, will have to clarify exactly what is meant, otherwise run the risk of sounding nonsensical.

And thanks for quoting 590 which shows that each thing listed is interactive/participatory, not merely an inert stone set up, giving further weight to my view, and most translators, that it is "altars" or "idolatrous altars".

It is wrong because Allah says do not do it.

It is clear you did not (and perhaps cannot?) provide an explanation, hence resort to the above statement. It seems you neglect the many verses which ask us to think/reflect/reason/etc. Which is it non-thinking-obedience or thinking-obedience?

quickduck

Peace raginggaijin,

It is clear you did not (and perhaps cannot?) provide an explanation, hence resort to the above statement. It seems you neglect the many verses which ask us to think/reflect/reason/etc. Which is it non-thinking-obedience or thinking-obedience?

Peace Wakas, All

in his signature, raginggaijin wrote " EXPLANATION IS NOT PROOF" ...I think that is why he doesn't bother to give us "PROOFS" without any "EXPLANATION" rotfl rotfl

salam

raginggaijin

Peace raginggaijin,

Every translator does not say this, i.e. "stone set up". Most translators are more specific or clarify what they mean, e.g. see Asad's notes. To refute your claim of "every translator", see here http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/3/default.htm

So what exactly are stones set up then, hmm? This is where Critical Thinking comes in Why would you set up stones?

Let us look at Quran translations, both available online and in my possession (translators in bold).

www.quranbrowser.com

Pickthall "and that which hath been immolated unto idols."
Yusuf Ali "that which is sacrificed on stone"
Hulali-Khan "and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on AnNusub (stone altars)"
Shakir "and what is sacrificed on stones set up"
Sher Ali "and that which has been slaughtered at an altar as an offering to idols"
Arberry "as also things sacrificed to idols"
Palmer "and what is sacrificed to idols"
Rodwell "and that which hath been sacrificed on the blocks of stone"
Sale "and that which hath been sacrificed unto idols"
Maulana Ali "and that which is sacrificed on stones set up"
Bahktiar "and those slain to fetishes"
Dawood "also of animals sacrificed to idols"
Irving "and what has been slaughtered before some idol"
Qara'i "and what is sacrificed on stone altars"
Istanbul Translators Committee "and that which has been sacrificed to idols"
M.A.S. Abdul Haleem "or anything sacrificed on idolatrous altars"
Ahmed Ali "and that which has been slaughtered at altars is forbidden"
Zafrulla Khan "and that which has been slaughtered at an altar"
S.V. Mir Ahmed Ali "what is sacrificed on altar stones"

All of them agree They are stones set up for sacrifices.

It's not rocket surgery.

Oh, are you saying I need to spell everything out to you? Is that the intent of this reply to me, Wakas?

Thanks for admitting they are not mere "stones". So, can we now assume you see a significant difference between "stones" and "stones set up"? Perhaps you too, like most translators, will have to clarify exactly what is meant, otherwise run the risk of sounding nonsensical.

Again you resort to Ad Hominem in an attempt to invalidate. Allah clearly says we are not to sacrifice on stones set up. What are stones set up for? Altars or idols. You name it, we have proof they were used as sacrifices in every Quran translation.

Is that clear enough for you, Wakas?

So according to the original intent of Ayman, if Safa is a smooth stone and Marwa is a fire, according to Ayman, what are their purposes? If they are used in a sacrificial rite, the Feast/Hajj, according to Ayman, what would you use the stone for? Sacrificing on the smooth stone, Wakas?
What is the fire for? Immolating the flesh of the sacrifice, Wakas?

You want to go down this route, then let us go down this route.

Are you saying it is okay to sacrifice on altars? Yes or no.
Are you saying it is okay to sacrifice on stones? Yes or no.
Are you saying they are not altars? Yes or no.
Are you saying they are not sacrificial stones? Yes or no.

You are agreeing with Ayman, am I correct? So what are you going to use your smooth stone and your fire for, Wakas? Show us in the Quran what these are used for in the shaAAa-iri Allahi, Wakas.

I stand by my original belief Safa and Marwa are small mountains partially enclosed within Masjid Al-Haram today. They are signs of Allah for the Hajj; beacons/waymarks that point the way to the House. The proofs are provided not only in the Quran but in the world today.

You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa are not small mountains. Even Google Earth shows the topography.
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa were not around during the time of Muhammad (pbuh).
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa are man-made.
You have not brought proofs Safa and Marwa were named after the time of Muhammad (pbuh).

You have only brought conjecture, Ad Hominem and Insults.

Please read Surah 4729-30.

Allah knows your heart and your intent. I am not responsible for you nor am I your guardian. To you are your works and to me are mine.

Allah tells us where to sacrifice the cattle/camels Surah 2233, 52, 595, 597

Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols, so I will not do it. End of discussion on my end.

What you decide to do is entirely your choice. Choose wisely.

And thanks for quoting 590 which shows that each thing listed is interactive/participatory, not merely an inert stone set up, giving further weight to my view, and most translators, that it is "altars" or "idolatrous altars".

So you are okay with the construction of obelisks? Am I understanding you correctly?

It is clear you did not (and perhaps cannot?) provide an explanation, hence resort to the above statement. It seems you neglect the many verses which ask us to think/reflect/reason/etc. Which is it non-thinking-obedience or thinking-obedience?

Again, Ad Hominem and Insults. Again, it's not rocket surgery.

I have proven I have not only thought this out, but explored all the options available to me by our Creator. All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

One bit of advice I think you should be less concerned about what I am doing, and more concerned about what you are doing.

May Allah protect the believers from the whispers of the accursed satans.

May Allah pour down patience from Most High upon the believers.
May Allah grant the believers a goodly provision in this life and in the Hereafter, and save us from the chastisement of the Fire.
May Allah not make the believers a trial for the unjust.

Peace.

Wakas

Peace raginggaijin,

I will try and stay on point, and ignore your superfluous commentary.

You first say it is "stones set up", then say "stones set up for sacrifices". The latter is more specific than the former.

Oh, are you saying I need to spell everything out to you? Is that the intent of this reply to me, Wakas?

I prefer accuracy, hence my requests of you.

Allah clearly says we are not to sacrifice on stones set up.

Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are

wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altars

Pay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.

Thus, your above statement is refuted 100%.

So you are okay with the construction of obelisks? Am I understanding you correctly?

If the obelisk is set up to be worshipped or as a symbol for idolatry, then no, I am not ok with that, and neither is AQ. I am not against stones being set up per se, and neither is AQ, e.g. this is common practice in construction/buildings, and I am not against houses/buildings, I dont know about you.

I have proven I have not only thought this out, but explored all the options available to me by our Creator.

I recommend re-exploring then. ;D

And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".

RA786

And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".

laugh rotfl

raginggaijin

Peace raginggaijin,

I will try and stay on point, and ignore your superfluous commentary.

You first say it is "stones set up", then say "stones set up for sacrifices". The latter is more specific than the former.

So are you following what I say or are you following what the Quran says? I have given proofs from the Quran, have you not checked them?

I prefer accuracy, hence my requests of you.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. I am not a guide, nor am I responsible for you. Study the Quran diligently, and be not dependent on my opinion.

Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols. I stand behind the revelation of Allah, the word of the Prophet, the Quran. I will not do it.

Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are

wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altars

Pay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.

Thus, your above statement is refuted 100%.

How so? What are you striving to sacrifice upon the altar? As said at the beginning

They are not stones (hijarat). Surah 1054
They are not idols (sanam). Surah 674
"The day when they shall come forth in haste from the graves, as though to the altar herded." Surah 7043
"Yawma yakhrujoona mina al-ajdathi siraAAan kaannahum ila nusubin yoofidoona" Surah 7043

Again, Allah says not to do it in Surah 53. Period. If you choose to sacrifice animals on stones set up, and rationalize it away, that is your choice. No one is making you do it.

And what does Allah tell us to do with the sacrifices of Hajj? We are to "eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar" Surah 2236

So we are to eat of this food, the camels, a sign of Allah and His bounty for men.

Are we supposed to eat animals sacrificed on altars/idols/stones set up? No.

So back to your Safa is a stone, Marwa is a fire theory What do you do with the stone, Wakas? Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.

So what again is refuted, Wakas?

You confirmed what I said. Thank you.

If the obelisk is set up to be worshipped or as a symbol for idolatry, then no, I am not ok with that, and neither is AQ. I am not against stones being set up per se, and neither is AQ, e.g. this is common practice in construction/buildings, and I am not against houses/buildings, I dont know about you.

Thank you for your admission. The Truth has come and that which is hidden has become manifest.

Allah knows your heart and your thoughts. You know this is not about building a house, as the word for stone is different.
As you strive to make a play on words, making a mockery of the revelation of Allah to follow your Free Will, that is on you. I am clear of what you do.

May Allah protect the believers from the whispers of the satans.

And by the way, I believe the saying is "rocket science" not "rocket surgery".

Your ignorance is showing.

Rocket Surgery
n. a task requiring intelligence or higher education; a difficult undertaking; a play on words which mixes two common metaphors "rocket science" and "brain surgery" Subjects English
Editorial Note Often used jocularly in negative constructions similar to ?It?s not rocket surgery.? Etymological Note A blend of rocket science and brain surgery.

http//media.threadless.com/subs/big/46364.gif

Enjoy the update on your vernacular. Next time Google is your friend.

http//tinyurl.com/yly7p2s

"The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe, and those who guard shall be above them on the day of resurrection; and Allah gives means of subsistence to whom he pleases without measure." Surah 2212

"O you who believe! let not people laugh at people perchance they may be better than they, nor let women at women, perchance they may be better than they; and do not find fault with your own people nor call one another by nicknames; evil is a bad name after faith, and whoever does not turn, these it is that are the unjust." Surah 4911

"But you took them for a mockery until they made you forget My remembrance and you used to laugh at them." Surah 23110

Since you insist on playing word games, I am done with you, Wakas.

"And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people." Surah 668

To you are your deeds, and to me are mine. I am not responsible for you, nor am I a guardian.

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
May Allah increase the unjust in naught but destruction.
May Allah curse the liars.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.

Peace.

RA786

Rocket Surgery
n. a task requiring intelligence or higher education; a difficult undertaking; a play on words which mixes two common metaphors "rocket science" and "brain surgery" Subjects English
Editorial Note Often used jocularly in negative constructions similar to ?It?s not rocket surgery.? Etymological Note A blend of rocket science and brain surgery.

bravo rotfl laugh x5

Now Now, everyone.....Lets Not Get too Personal... I enjoyed the Comic Relief from Both Wakas and Raginggaijin

Right now, I am dumbfounded....I just dont understand....

1)Why would Prophet Muhammad Stay in Saudi Arabia instead of Jerusalem (Modernday Israel)?

-Wouldnt it make more sense for Him to live in Jeruslaem if THAT is where the True Qibla/House is?

Also, why would these Sunnipengan distorters Intentionally Name two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa) in an effort to INTENTIONALLY Delude Quran-followers(Muslims) into performing a FALSE Hajj? Also, Why would the "Muslims" RULE from Mecca and Medina instead of Rule from Jerusalem?

These are questions that confuse me. Why wouldnt the Muslims "Headcouters" be in Jerusalem in stead of Saudi Arabia?
Many people try to answer this by saying that the Meccan's wanted Political Power?

So they waited till Muhammad Died to infultrate, Distort and then Rule from Mecca? ???
Why wouldnt Muhammad Rule from Jeruslaem?-like the other prophets?

And HAS ANYONE DONE HAJJ IN JERUSALEM? ANYONE AT ALL? or IS ther anyone you have heard about doing it in this day in age?

raginggaijin

bravo rotfl laugh x5

Now Now, everyone.....Lets Not Get too Personal... I enjoyed the Comic Relief from Both Wakas and Raginggaijin

Right now, I am dumbfounded....I just dont understand....

1)Why would Prophet Muhammad Stay in Saudi Arabia instead of Jerusalem (Modernday Israel)?

-Wouldnt it make more sense for Him to live in Jeruslaem if THAT is where the True Qibla/House is?

Also, why would these Sunnipengan distorters Intentionally Name two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa) in an effort to INTENTIONALLY Delude Quran-followers(Muslims) into performing a FALSE Hajj? Also, Why would the "Muslims" RULE from Mecca and Medina instead of Rule from Jerusalem?

These are questions that confuse me. Why wouldnt the Muslims "Headcouters" be in Jerusalem in stead of Saudi Arabia?
Many people try to answer this by saying that the Meccan's wanted Political Power?

So they waited till Muhammad Died to infultrate, Distort and then Rule from Mecca? ???
Why wouldnt Muhammad Rule from Jeruslaem?-like the other prophets?

And HAS ANYONE DONE HAJJ IN JERUSALEM? ANYONE AT ALL? or IS ther anyone you have heard about doing it in this day in age?

RA786,

Pray for guidance. Surah 245

Leave it alone, and turn to Allah in patience and prayer. Come to this another time, or when Allah guides you to it. You will know, have faith.

Allah is All Mighty, Wise, Seer. If you are sincere, He will guide you to the Truth.

First Pray for guidance. Surah 245, 2186
And read the Quran. Surah 961

May Allah grant you a goodly provision in this life and in the Hereafter, and spare you from the chastisement of the Fire.

Peace and blessings.

quickduck

Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols. I stand behind the revelation of Allah, the word of the Prophet, the Quran. I will not do it.

How so? What are you striving to sacrifice upon the altar? As said at the beginning

Again, Allah says not to do it in Surah 53. Period. If you choose to sacrifice animals on stones set up, and rationalize it away, that is your choice. No one is making you do it.

And what does Allah tell us to do with the sacrifices of Hajj? We are to "eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar" Surah 2236

So we are to eat of this food, the camels, a sign of Allah and His bounty for men.

Are we supposed to eat animals sacrificed on altars/idols/stones set up? No.

So back to your Safa is a stone, Marwa is a fire theory What do you do with the stone, Wakas? Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.

So what again is refuted, Wakas?

Salam all,

come on guys, let's read 2158 again...

God says "there is NO blame" ...for the one DOING the "hajj" to do the act of '' yaTTawwaFa" on/by/with "safaa and marwa".

What i can understand from this verse is that "yattawwafa by safaa and marwa" (whatever does this mean) is actually FORBIDDEN, except during the hajj time where GOD allowed us to do it (there is no blame during hajj, although it's forbidden all the time and everywhere/when else) !!!!!!

Hence, this verse talks about an exception, NOT a rule !

so let's now assume for a minute, that "yattawwafa by safaa and marwa" means "sacrify on stones".

It really makes sense that although it is FORBIDDEN all the time, God ALLOWED it for a specified period, providing that we have to do it ONLY in a matter of remembering God and feeding the poor.

I hope this helps.

Salam

herbman

Peace to all,

I think the right question to be asked is

Do we have to follow superstions or logic?

what is the reading all about?
what is the purpoise of HAJJ according to the Reading?
If 2 mounts are part of the "sacred house", what kind of sign is it?
etc etc

Peace

quickduck

Peace to all,

......

If 2 mounts are part of the "sacred house", what kind of sign is it?
.....

Peace Herbman, all

raigingaijin claims that the 2 moutains are a SIGN that shows us the way we HAVE to GO through in order to reach the Kaaba.
For him, this sign is a kind of " traffic sign " (circulation) , or like the Lighthouse used by the boats to reach the coast. rotfl

Wakas

Peace raginggaijin,

You now say "Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols." then later in your post say "Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.".

It seems you are confused as to what 53 says, so let us clarify, I shall re-quote myself

Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are

wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altars

Pay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.

It is 100% clear from 53 what is forbidden and that is meat/animals slaughtered on the (idolatrous) altars, NOT the general act of slaughtering on a stone set up as you seemingly imply.

Once you clarify what you take from 53, and are consistent with it, then we can discuss your other points.

Oh, and thanks for the jocular application of "rocket surgery", I did not know that. Guess I missed your "jocular" reference in amongst your tirade.

peace quickduck,
Interesting thought with the no blame upon them, and why. I already discussed this in the hajj/feast/debate thread, but what you said can add an additional point to what I said. The evidence is mounting up.

RA786

Peace Herbman, all

raigingaijin claims that the 2 moutains are a SIGN that shows us the way we HAVE to GO through in order to reach the Kaaba.
For him, this sign is a kind of " traffic sign " (circulation) , or like the Lighthouse used by the boats to reach the coast. rotfl

To be honest thats exactly what I thought (or think) the Sighns are For the Following Reason.

The Quran is constant in History menaing it is relevent to both the Past,Present, and Future.
-So, Obviously in our day in age....The Qibla, Holy Shrine, and Masjid Al-haram was LOST.
Would it be Illogical to think that in an effort to keep the Qibla (holy shrine/masjid-Al-Harem) KNOWN...a Sighn is Needed? Sign as in a Landmark or some sort?
A Wall can be destroyed....a Stone can be Detroyed...a Stick in the Ground can be detroyed...heck...EVEN the Ka'bah HAS been destroyed a Bunch of times...
what is somthing can Cannot Easily be destroyed by Man's Hands?---Moreover... What landmark for THOUSANDS of years CANNOT be destroyed by ANYTHING other than the Earth?

AnswerA Mountain!, thats my logic/justification for somekind of Landmark that would be easily identifiable and Durable so people can find it.

Let me ask this Question to all of you.

Is it at all possible that Safa and Marwa Do infact mean Stone set for Sacrificing (or as Wakas pointed out) BUT ALSO is the NAME of two mountains that the people of Mecca named? Can we BOTH be right?

For instance, Here raises another Question... In Pretty much ALL Histroy that can be obtained (please Correct me if I am Wrong)....People Both MUSLIM and NON-MUSLIM have ALWAYS called the two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa). They to my knowledge (please correct me If I am Wrong) have NEVER been called Anything other than Safa and Mawra (or at least thats why Prophet Muhammad's people at his time Called them).

So if these ARE the Official Names OF the Mountains and We intrepret them as such...Does this Change ot make the Verse Illogical? Allah speaks to Men in HIS language. If in the Classical Arabic Language of Mecca 600AD, Safra and Marwa Ment (definition what Waka posted) but ALSO were the Names of two Mountains....
which one do you think the people Followed? according to Traditionalist Muslims...It would be the Mountains. What do you all think? would that be Confusing?

Why would they name the two mountains those names?

RA786

Wakas, in your intrepretation....
why would your view of Safa and Mawrah be Quote Indeed, a§-êafa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah.?

Why/how would the Camel and Heavy Goat milk be two Monumentus Sighns/Symbols/workings of/decrees of Allah?
and then my next question would be 1)how is that relevent to Hajj and also 2) How do you Circle/walk around them?

Question for Anybody else Is there any History of Pre-Islamic People Sacrificing Animals (or humans) on these Two Knolls(mountains)?
Why would the Deliberatly Name these two structures Safa(Rock) and Marwah (Flint Stone)?

hope4

Selam

Is there evidene that Safa and Marwa were the names of these mountains pre-Islami times?

Or could it have come from this story

In Islamic tradition, Ibrahim was commanded by Allah to leave his wife Hagar and their infant son alone in the desert, with only basic provisions, to test their faith. The place was between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. When their provisions were exhausted, Hagar went in search of help or water. To make her search easier and faster, she went alone, leaving the infant Ishmael on the ground. She first climbed the nearest hill, Al-Safa, to look over the surrounding area. When she saw nothing, she then went to the other hill, Al-Marwah, to look around. While Hagar was on either hillside, she was able to see Ishmael and know he was safe. However, when she was in the valley between the hills she was unable to see her son. Thus Hagar would run while in the valley between the hills and walk at a normal pace while on the hillsides.

Hagar travelled back and forth between the hills seven times in the scorching heat before she returned to Ishmael. When she arrived, she found that a spring had sprouted forth from the crying baby kicking at the sand with his feet. This spring is now known as the Zamzam Well. This Zamzam Well was granted from the angels of Allah to reward Hagar. ana ahmed we ana moslem

peace

RA786

Peace Hope4,
Yes , Right, I have heard this Hadith a couple times.

Here is some Issues though.

Hagar,Ishmael, and Abraham was in Babalonian times...(before Moses and the egyptian fight, and obviously before Muhammad)
...So Is it possible that this Story of Hagar emerged 1st and then the Pegan Story about a Godess running forth with a Baby and such (that Ayman posted) Emereged 2nd and was BASED off of the 1st?--(just with added distortions and Added innovations?)
If we can PROVE as much as possible that the NAMES of the two Hills have ALWAYS BEEN Safa and Mawrah, can we then agree that Intrepereting them as such in the Quran isnt really That Illogical?

hope4

If we can PROVE as much as possible that the NAMES of the two Hills have ALWAYS BEEN Safa and Mawrah, can we then agree that Intrepereting them as such in the Quran isnt really That Illogical?

Selam RA786

The question is how to prove it? ancient maps might be the answer if any of you have any lying around ;D

peace