I challenge all Quranists.
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The Qur'an is a book of guidance for these who already believed. Translations are not Qur'an and never will be, and anyone who thinks he will study Qur'an in English and will be a great scholar is a fool.
Also anyone who studies Quran without understanding Arabic is a bigger fool ;D Probably about 3/4 of the muslim population will fit into this criteria.
Peace
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he given them ayaat to explain others? what? he teach them Qur'an because they need him to teach them.
Yes, this is attested to by Quran itself
And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ
Yeah so Prophet Muhammad teach them not only one but many aspects of Qur'an which indicates that the quran is not interpret by anyone.
His saying that were remembered then recorded then collectedHow do you go from 'teach' to 'interpret' ? Quran NEVER says to the prophet 'interpret' (afsiru).
His sayings THAT WERE REMEMBERED? You mean to tell me, this vital ingredient to understanding the Quran was left to chance? Is that why the ulema cant agree to who a sahaba is? Sir, you really need to come to reality. Have a read of Zubair Siddiqui's 'Hadith Literature' which is a classic in the field of hadith studies.
Actually, ANYONE can believe or disbelieve as they like
this ayah talks about these who never believed in the first place if you notice at the end of it Allah asks his prophet if he really the one who force people to become believers
.Yes and the word for 'people' is 'an-naas' which includes muslims. Since when have Muslims stopped becoming part of an-naas?
why do you keep avoiding the question regarding your name?
Because its not up for discussion. This thread was started and defined by you so lets stick to the topic at hand.
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Hello, I'm a Sunni I challenge all of you to prove one or 2 things to me
1- your sect is the only true one
2- Ahlu Alsunnah Waljammah are false
you can use any time of history, any hadith, anything you want but no mocking, I won't answer anyone mocking.
I hope you accept my challenge and have a nice day.
Well firstly you need to read chapter 5 of the Quran and you will see clearly the Quran recognized three scriptures(Torah, Gospel and Quran) and recognized one faith, faith in God and judgement day. So I am not sure if a question like is Sunnism a wrong sect can be answered since Sunnis believe in God and the last day. But I will say many teachings of Sunni FIQH is against the teachings of the Quran and is more resembling to Bukhari and Muslim hadith sources.
Not all Quranist reject all hadiths, but no Quranist will accept it at the expense of the Quran which Sunni fiqh does in many occasion.
I think the biggest difference is in individual interpretation and application. Quranist generally see the Quran as an open Book for meveryone and interpretation and application is an individual's duty while Sunnis see the Quran as a Book to be recited and revered but not interpreted except by jurist and its application is also in the hands of jurist who rely almost exclusivesly on hadiths and consensus. They then believe they have the right to enforce that on people even through violence. Of course this means they need political support to have the power, which they do. Hence the Shariah law of theirs. Shariah law in the Quran is refering to the Torah and Gospel and Quran(read chapter 5).
So in the end its about individual freedom and responsibility. And this makes sense since we will in the end stand in front of God as individuals and each will be responsible for himself. This notion that Sunni and Shias have that they can force their doctrine over others is the reason why we have violence and oppression in the name of Islam like Sudan, Saudi and Taliban.
I do not accept trhe arguments some Quranist like Edip and others propagate about polytheism. I do not see Sunnism as polytheistic and I see nothing wrong with praising or elevating the status of Muhammad. However, we must do the same will ALL OF THE PROPHETS as the Quran says and not pick one and abrogate the others.
Which takes us to the most important argument that I believes seperates Quranist from Sunnis and that is abrogation. You can't be a Quranist and believe in abrogation because that means that the Quran is no longer a source of guidance and many of its verses are no longer relevant. Thats a crime against the Quran.
I also do not accept the abrogation of the pevious scriptures since I see the Quran seeing itself in equal footing with the previous scriptures. Once again read chapter 5.
Quranist therefore do not have an orthodoxy and a theocracy even if they wanted to. BUt I can not say that everything in Sunni Islam is false, but many things are, at least in comparing it with Quran.
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Those who follow The Quran alone are not a sect. In fact, sects have nothing to do with Muhammad and the teachings of God.
3103 Hold firmly to the rope of God, all of you, and do not be divided. Remember God's blessing upon you when you were enemies and He united your hearts, then you became, with His blessing, brothers; and you were on the verge of a pit of fire and He saved you from it. Thus, God clarifies for you His signs, so that you may be guided.
3105 Do not be like those who divided and differed after the proof had come to them. For them is a painful retribution.
6159 Those who have divided their obligation ("deen" and become sects, you have nothing to do with them. Their matter will be with God, then, He will inform them of what they had done.
Who authorized the title "Sunni"? Was it God?
2278 Strive in the cause of God properly. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the obligation ("deen", the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'the peaceful' ("al muslimeen" from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over people. So uphold the bond and bring forth the betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent patron, and what an excellent supporter.
Muhammad was to follow Abraham. Also, please show us in The Quran where it says that we should follow the sunna/hadiths of Muhammad.
2530 The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have forsaken this reading (quran)."
the title sunni was only created to distinguish ourselves of all these sects that call themselves Muslims like Khwarij and Shia, we never called ourselves a new sect we believe we always the first, the only and true Islam. and no we haven't forsaken the Qur'an.
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Ahh, and that explains away the burning of hadith collections because......... ? Oh wait, it doesn't.
It is a pity you evade the points made, and continue to repeat what you have been told is true, without evidence.
But in any case, I'm interested in this comment of yours "he told them not to write what he says until they are finished of writing the whole Qur'an."
Specific evidence please?I read that hadith long time ago but you'll say ah Muslim/Bukhari these are not evidents.
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Just to note, the myth of the 'Uthmani rasm' is contradicted by the Quran itself
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80/11-16 tells us that Quran was already in pages and spread far and wide
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15/1 tells us that Quran is a clear kitab/book.
If the Prophet and the sahaba knew of ayaat like these, would they allow Quran to be simply verbal or written on scraps of paper?
I don't see any contradiction, Uthmani is very clear for me.
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salam stranger1990,
I have a question, do Ahlu Alsunnah Waljammah perform salat the same way that prophet Muhammed PBUH did?Yeah we try to.
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Salaam,
As someone has suggested, you better learn Arabic and study Quran yourself. Instead of relying on this
ok. I should have been more specific. What I meant when I said primary source of Islam, we consider ourselves the primary source of all these sects that call themselves Muslims that came out early and later in the Islamic history. Like Shiaism, sufiism, etc.
I'll tell it bluntly no, the reference for ISLAM is not you yourselves but it is Alqur'aan.
Let me repeat the suggestion again learn Arabic and study Quran yourself. You have intelligence, Sight, Hearing, Heart -- use all that to study everything needed to study Alqur'aan.
It is your own responsibility.
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Also anyone who studies Quran without understanding Arabic is a bigger fool ;D Probably about 3/4 of the muslim population will fit into this criteria.
Peace
translations are like a very basic tafseer book, reading it is not studying it.
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Also anyone who studies Quran without understanding Arabic is a bigger fool Grin Probably about 3/4 of the muslim population will fit into this criteria.
translations are like a very basic tafseer book, reading it is not studying it.
Did he mention "translations/tafseer"? or did he mention "understanding Arabic"?
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I don't see any contradiction, Uthmani is very clear for me.
According to your sunni history, the Quran wasn't even compiled into a book during the time of the Prophet! Can you imagine the Prophet leaving the preservation of the Quran to CHANCE? He was told by Allah in Q 5/67
O Messenger! make reach which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission
Despite this clear declaration, you guys have said stuff like verse of the Quran have been FORGOTTEN due to being eaten by goats! Have a read of 'Introduction to the Sciences of the Quran' by Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi. You guys have betrayed the Quran, im sorry to say.
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I read that hadith long time ago but you'll say ah Muslim/Bukhari these are not evidents.
On the contrary, I too have read ahadith similar to what you said, but NOT exactly like you said it. I want you to cite the specific hadith, so we can see if it says what you say. It really is quite a simple request.
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Slakm all,
I think that when the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad he should do explain to his companions if he didn't explain to them, then the verse must be interpreted in many segments, or it might be chaotic among the companions about the verses. On the other hand, his companions must asked the Prophet when their had got the questions about the clue of the verses. However, the practiced of the Prophet according to God revealed must be the best pattern of conduct and clear among the companions. I do believe that all the practiced of the prophet must be told and remembered by his companions and would be tradition for centuries after the Prophet passed away. In my opinion Imam Bukhari did a great job in collecting the prophetic traditions. I don?t believe all words of Bukhari, but I read the Qur-an and compared with Bukhari. I realized that when you read the book of Buhkari liken to read the historic book. We have been reading many books since we could read as; Scientific book, business book and etc. But some theories we can get and some we can deny. Allah Stated
"And We have sent down to you the Book with truth, authenticating what is present of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute." (The Message 54
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say 'In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.' And they ask you how much are they to give, Say 'The excess.' It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think." (The Message 2219)
Can you explain the underlined words?
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Slakm all,
I think that when the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad he should do explain to his companions if he didn't explain to them, then the verse must be interpreted in many segments, or it might be chaotic among the companions about the verses. On the other hand, his companions must asked the Prophet when their had got the questions about the clue of the verses. However, the practiced of the Prophet according to God revealed must be the best pattern of conduct and clear among the companions. I do believe that all the practiced of the prophet must be told and remembered by his companions and would be tradition for centuries after the Prophet passed away. In my opinion Imam Bukhari did a great job in collecting the prophetic traditions. I don?t believe all words of Bukhari, but I read the Qur-an and compared with Bukhari. I realized that when you read the book of Buhkari liken to read the historic book. We have been reading many books since we could read as; Scientific book, business book and etc. But some theories we can get and some we can deny. Allah Stated
"And We have sent down to you the Book with truth, authenticating what is present of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute." (The Message 54
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say 'In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.' And they ask you how much are they to give, Say 'The excess.' It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think." (The Message 2219)
Can you explain the underlined words?
The underline words are about the Torah and Gospel and Quran. Ironically the Sunnis have a hadith about stoning adulterers for these verses and they use these verses to justify a theocracy. Yet they somehow forgot the Gospel. Ain't no theocracy there. It just shows how the Quran understands terminolgy different than how we have been told to understand them.
As far as the alcohol. Yes alcohol has great harm and benefits as everybody can see however societies can do without alcohol. Money also has benefits and harm and so does red meat and oil or salt. I see moderation as a key here.
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The underline words are about the Torah and Gospel and Quran. Ironically the Sunnis have a hadith about stoning adulterers for these verses and they use these verses to justify a theocracy. Yet they somehow forgot the Gospel. Ain't no theocracy there. It just shows how the Quran understands terminolgy different than how we have been told to understand them.
Disagreed. Lets analyse 5/48 again
And We have sent down to thee the Book with truth, confirming what is between its two hands, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one We have placed of you a right way and an open road If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.
Some points about 5/48
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The book with truth (al-kitab bil haqq) is the Quran itself. Al-quran is 'al-haqq' (41/53) and its the tafseel/detailing of al-kitab (10/37)
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5/48 tells us to judge with al-kitab bil haqq and not their own desires. At this point, it does not tell the reader that other books are included. So its either Quran or your desires.
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To 'every one We have placed of you' (li kulli ja'alnaa minkum) cannot be read as for religious communities (i.e. jews and christians) because the 'you' (kum) here is the same 'kum' is used in the phrase 'made you one nation' ('la ja'aalaKUM ummatan wahidat'. This 'you' if we see 2/213 refers to an-naas/humankind, not three religious groups.
The Quran NEVER approves of 3 religious books. This is a myth.
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well you call others sects don't you? and you call yourself the true Islam, but you're a very small minority, doesn't that make you a sect? and your movement is pretty new.
Actually if you look at history, the Muslims who disbelieve/have doubts about using hadiths is not a "new" thing.
"The existence of early controversies about the Hadith is widely recognized by scholars of Hadith" (Musa, Aisha. Hadith as Scripture. 7.).
