Here is my Ultimate Answer to the Top Question of Sunnis and Shiites

Edip_Yuksel

Here is my Ultimate Answer to the Top Question of the Blind followers of Shiite and Sunni Dogmas

Edip Yuksel

Like many of those who have rejected polytheism and decided to dedicate the system to God alone by following Quran alone as sole authority for our eternal salvation, I am tired of hearing ignorant enemies of islam (peacemaking), the question of sunni and shiite mushriks "If you follow the Quran alone, then tell me how can you observe the Sala prayer?"

I have learned that it is futile to inform them that the Sala prayer did not start with Muhammad, or that his Hadith-Sunna sources did not have video clips of Muhammad, that it is impossible to observe Sala according to Hadith books since they contain many contradictory reports, or that the required details of Sala is already given by the Quran, or that the details they are looking for are trivial and their mentality is no different than those Jews who asked the color and age of the heifer? or any other answer that require acknowledgement of the Quran, critical thinking, and cognitive skills... They just do not get it. They are under hypnosis of devils who continuously tell them that "God is not enough" that "God's word is useless without the Hadith," stories fabricated and reported by the enemies of the messenger (6112-116, and many other verses where the word Hadith is used for other than the Quran) ...

So, here is my answer to those who bring up the details of Sala prayer, when they are reminded with the message of the Quran

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to follow Hadith and Sunna, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to give up using my brains and become a muqallid (blind follower of a dogma), I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to add Muhammad's name NEXT TO God in KALIMA-YI TAWHID (Statement of Unity), I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to kill those who turn away from my religion, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to follow a role-model who married a 9 years-old girl while he was a 54 years-old man, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to follow role-model who tortured and gouged people's eyes with hot nails, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to believe that God's chosen role model could not learn how to read and write while delivering a book for 23 years, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to believe that if my mother and sister pass in front of my prayer I should consider them like a dog and pig, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to believe that following the Prophet means following those who fabricated false stories 200-300 years after him, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to believe that all those companion of the Prophet Muhammad who killed each other after Muhammad, without exception are my guiding stars, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to believe that my Holy Book's verses contradict each other and thus abrogate each other, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to believe that a hungry holy goat ate the "verse of stoning" and thus it was abrogated from the Quran after Muhammad's death, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to stone people do death for adultery, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I must embrace and practice the medieval Arab and Jewish culture as divine law I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to prohibit God's blessings, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to force my wife, sister or daughter to walk in a black sack, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to be an ingrate and betrayer of the Quran, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray I have to believe in sahaba with extraordinary memories who reported the last statements of the last sermon of the Prophet Muhammad in three contradictory versions, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray I have to believe that the Quran alone misguides people while at the same time I should respect hadith books reporting that all prominent companions of the Prophet Muhammad agreed with Omar's statement, "Hasbuna Kitabullah" (God's Book is Sufficient for us), yes, if I need to swim in the quagmire of contradictions, then I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I have to dream living in a country governed by mullahs, Talibans, salafis and oppressive kings I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to screw up my brain with the volumes of contradictory hadith and sectarian teachings, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to express my devotion to God alone by telling him "iyyaka nabudu wa iyyaka nastain" but while sitting I need to betray those words by addressing his prophet in second person, "assalamu alayKA AYYUHA an-Nabiyyu", thereby considering a dead person another Omnipresent god, I would prefer not to pray at all.

If in order to pray with all the trivial details I need to be an ignorant polytheist who follow a religion concocted by a corporation consisting of Allah + Muhammad + Sahaba + Tabiin + Emams + Clergymen, I would prefer not to pray at all.

The Sala prayer according to the Quran prohibits evil and vice (2945) but the Sala prayer according to Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmizi, Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hanbal, Kitab al-Kafi, Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih, Tahdhib al-Ahkam, Al-Istibsar, etc, promotes evil and vice, ignorance and arrogance.

Peace,

shadowpuppet

I understand this quite well.

It is another kind of prayer... to not pray at all,
to partake in what has become just another knotted spell.
It is a question of intent.

But I usually pray... and prostrate.

qul a udz
birabil falaq
min shari maqalaq
ve min shari
gasiqin idza vaqab
ve min sharin
na fasiti fil uqad
ve min shari
hasidin idza hasad

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7981733389681933234#

jawad_mugniya

Dear Sir,

The different tendencies I discovered throughout my trip inside the Quran alone followers group

-There are those who support 2 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 3 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 4 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 5 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who even don't know how many rakaats (units) there are in a Salat (the physical act)
-There are those who pretend that one can do as many rakaat (units) as wanted there is no limit (only time limit)
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is only an event of gathering
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is a pagan form of ritual
-There are those who pretend that Sol-laa (Salat), Siyam, Hajj, Zakat are not what they shoud be because of some linguistics distorsions (For example, read Aidid Safar's Thesis)
-There are those who believe in a huge conspiracy from Persians or from Pagan Arabs to distord original Islam (Shabbir Ahmad, Aidid Safar and their likes)

The above list is not exhaustive, we can add other odd sorts of Quran alone followers.

There is no much differencies between Sunnis, Shiites and Quran alone followers. All are same, sects and sub-sects.

Quran alone followers never understaood this

Here an attempt to explain you in more details

The vehicle of knowledge (what is heard, what is seen) during the era of Muhammad in most cases was the oral transmission. What was revealed to Muhammad and he spoke from his mouth is what was heard by the people around him, and what was seen by them is what Muhammad did in the form of physical gestural. In both cases, the vehicle for the visual informations and audible informations is the oral transmission. When one puts these informations (visual & audible) in writings it gives you a BOOK.

According to academic researches, a first opinion is that the revealed verses were puted in writings just after the death of Muhammad and compiled during the era of the third caliph Uthman, to give finally a BOOK called the uthmanian vulgate (al mushaf al uthmani) which contained all revealed verses to Muhammad, according to the compilers. 30 years skiped before having a BOOK which was merely a compilation of the revealed verses (many companions have had their own compiled book of revealed verses but all were finally burnt). A second opinion is that the uthmanian vulgate came into in its final form during the reign of Abd al-Malik b. Marwan and his governor al-Hajjaj. A third opinion is that the Quran came actually into its final form during the 2nd/3rd century. A fourth opinion, the less interesting, is that it came into its final form during Muhammad's era.

Now, the main problem is that the oldest manuscript of the uthmanian vulgate that we have today is dated of 3rd century of Islamic Calendar, otherwise virtually same century than the Ahadiths Collections Books of al-Bukhari and his likes. There is a real problem of dating early manuscripts of Quran because of a lack of consensus between academic researchers and ancient manuscripts.

It's well known that Zayd b. Thabit was reluctant to compile such a codex because Muhammad never ordered it and most probably he preferred the oral way of transmission.

Just imagine, if today you were to trust on an oral transmission of the revealed verses, I think you would flee Islam diligently for the same reasons that you reject Ahadiths Collections Books.

Coming to the Ahadiths wich reprensent the deeds (in this topic they refer to ritualistic practices mainly salat, hajj, siyam, zakat) of Muhammad are nearlly same as reaveled verses (audible informations versus visual informations). Both have been transmit by the way of oral transmission in a first move, then in the second move the oral transmission was put in writings.

Why then do you fully trust in a revealed verses codex (uthmanian vulgate) which went throughout the same vehicle of transmission of informations (oral one's) and don't trust in an oral continuous transmission of Muhammad ritualistic practices (mainly salat, hajj, siyam, zakat) that have been write down and compile in a form of Ahadiths Books (alike procedure of uthmanian vulgate). These four are the main ones (salat, hajj, siyam, zakat).

I never said to you to trust in all Ahadiths but reconsider those which deal with the four main ritualistic practices (orthopraxy).

Most of muslim ritualistic practices existed before Islam either in polytheistic bedouins milieu or jews and christians milieu of Medina. When Muhammad became the messenger of Allah, he used to pray in Kaaba and once in Medina after his emigration he formalized those rituals by purging them of all things that could undermine monotheism (Allah alone worship). Bowing and prostration were parts of the bedouin's rituals if you don't know, even turning around the Kaaba. This step of formalization was necessary to give an identity to the followers of Muhammad's message and to strenghten the cohesion between his followers. In fact, when Muhammad came to Medina he had to build a new muslim society to which he gave ritual codes, social codes, political codes etc. based upon the divine inspirations (revealed verses) that he received.

Do you seriously think that one day Muhammad came before his followers and said to them "Ok guys ! You can pray as you want, you can give zakat as you want, you can do anything you want. Just build an anarchic muslim system."

They even didn't have any written book to rely on, all knowloedge was transmited through oral transmission (visual informations and audible informations).

I am not telling to support the whole contents of Ahadiths Collection Books, by the way I also consider that there are ahadiths to throw in the dustbin.

My main concern is these four ritualistic practices namely salat, hajj, siyam, zakat.

I am not concerned by the permissiveness of stoning somedbody, or by the believe in the return of Issa son of Maryam, or by the arrival of Dajjal and Mahdi. Because these subjects are not in the Quran (part of the audible informations)

Good luck, dear sir. As for me I am finally leaving Quran Alone follower Movement because it's very weak from inside and outside.

abdalquran

Again with this rubbish 'oral transmission' crap. Here's QURANIC evidence against it

http//www.tolueislam.com/bazms/Abdul.Wadud_ConspiraciesAgainstQuran.pdf

Please see chapter 5 Conspiracies against the Quranic text. Jawad is a happy subscriber to this falsehood. In order to validate his 'orthopraxy', he doesn't mind degrading the Quran to the status of hadith. This is despite the fact that the Quran calls itself 'a book' and says its kept in purified pages. Would the Prophet and the sahaba read those ayah and kept the Quran ORALLY only?

If the Quran alone movement was so weak, why can't you answer any of our questions?

jawad_mugniya

If the Quran alone movement was so weak, why can't you answer any of our questions?

The weakness of Quran alone followers is here, my brother

-There are those who support 2 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 3 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 4 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 5 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who even don't know how many rakaats (units) there are in a Salat (the physical act)
-There are those who pretend that one can do as many rakaat (units) as wanted there is no limit (only time limit)
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is only an event of gathering
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is a pagan form of ritual
-There are those who pretend that Sol-laa (Salat), Siyam, Hajj, Zakat are not what they shoud be because of some linguistics distorsions (For example, read Aidid Safar's Thesis)
-There are those who believe in a huge conspiracy from Persians or from Pagan Arabs to distord original Islam (Shabbir Ahmad, Aidid Safar and their likes)

The above list is not exhaustive, we can add other odd sorts of Quran alone followers.

Quran alone followers are more weak than Sunnis or Shiites particularly when talking about the four main practices namely salat, hajj, siyam, zakat.

abdalquran

Once again, it's a problem FOR YOU because you see some kind of ritualistic practice there. I have asked you time and again for proof of this 'orthopraxy'. Why don't you show where this 'orthopraxy' is in the Quran?

jawad_mugniya

If the muslim around Muhammad were Quran alone followers then surely he would said to them "Ok guys ! You can pray as you want, you can give zakat as you want, you can do anything you want. Just build an anarchic muslim system."

See the sentence in blue and then see this (0% chance to build a muslim system if we follow Quran only. Why ? Just read their discrepancies, among them. They are so weak about the main foundation of Islam.)

-There are those who support 2 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 3 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 4 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 5 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who even don't know how many rakaats (units) there are in a Salat (the physical act)
-There are those who pretend that one can do as many rakaat (units) as wanted there is no limit (only time limit)
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is only an event of gathering
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is a pagan form of ritual
-There are those who pretend that Sol-laa (Salat), Siyam, Hajj, Zakat are not what they shoud be because of some linguistics distorsions (For example, read Aidid Safar's Thesis)
-There are those who believe in a huge conspiracy from Persians or from Pagan Arabs to distord original Islam (Shabbir Ahmad, Aidid Safar and their likes)

jawad_mugniya

Once again, it's a problem FOR YOU because you see some kind of ritualistic practice there. I have asked you time and again for proof of this 'orthopraxy'. Why don't you show where this 'orthopraxy' is in the Quran?

Hope brother that you are not blind.

Most of muslim ritualistic practices existed before Islam either in polytheistic bedouins milieu or jews and christians milieu of Medina. When Muhammad became the messenger of Allah, he used to pray in Kaaba and once in Medina after his emigration he formalized those rituals by purging them of all things that could undermine monotheism (Allah alone worship). Bowing and prostration were parts of the bedouin's rituals if you don't know, even turning around the Kaaba. This step of formalization was necessary to give an identity to the followers of Muhammad's message and to strenghten the cohesion between his followers. In fact, when Muhammad came to Medina he had to build a new muslim society to which he gave ritual codes, social codes, political codes etc. based upon the divine inspirations (revealed verses) that he received.

abdalquran

Sorry but can you not undestand my request? I asked you to produce this orthopraxy FROM THE QURAN. I couldn't care less what polythiests during God knows when were doing.

Is the Quran your criteria or not, sir?

abdalquran

If the muslim around Muhammad were Quran alone followers then surely he would said to them "Ok guys ! You can pray as you want, you can give zakat as you want, you can do anything you want. Just build an anarchic muslim system."

It's funny you should derogatorily called it 'anarchic' whereas Quran has no problem with it

To each is an expression to which Allah turns him; then strive together towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together (2/14
It's concept of unity is 'al-khayraat', not standing, sitting, bowing together.

Ayisha

jawad it seems your copy paste button is stuck. You obvioulsy cannot answer any of the questions even though the questions you asked have been answered numerous times and from your posts it seems you think we may as well throw the Quran in the bin if you cannot see the total difference in Quran verses and 'oral transmisions' of hadith then there isnt much hope!

You also cannot see that those who follow Quran Only do NOT do so as a 'group mentality' like sunni shia etc and that is what hinders your progression in thought. It is an individual thought, as instructed in Quran, not a sheep following mentality. We are here to share what we see in those verses, what one person sees may not be the same as what another sees, there is no 'set thought' or 'set way' to look at the verses, IMHO.

If you dont think Quran Alone is for you thats fine, you continue to follow whatever 'group think' suits you but its not for everyone as we are all individuals and Allah knows that. For me I find something new every day in reading other peoples ideas and thoughts on Quran, Alhamdulillah, and many things have become clearer to me that were hazy before. Continue looking in other books for answers and you will always be in that haze of blind following what you are told is truth and will never find what is truth to you which Allah intended YOU to find yourself by using YOUR brains and YOU reflecting, instead of relying on someone elses reflections.

jawad_mugniya

In order to validate his 'orthopraxy', he doesn't mind degrading the Quran to the status of hadith. This is despite the fact that the Quran calls itself 'a book' and says its kept in purified pages.

Brother, 30 years (and maybe more) skiped before the uthmanian vulgate appearance (actual Quran). Why then do you believe in the integrity of the uthmanian vulgate ? However, for sure, the uthmanian vulgate passed through the same process of the writing of Ahadiths Collection Books. If not, then why all other compiled books, by some companions, of revealed verses were burnt ? Maybe to reduce the probability of a split into different sects of the fresh Islam. To clarify that main Shiites sects and other sects appeared during the caliphate of Ali and fortunately after the uthmanian vulgate's compilation.

Would the Prophet and the sahaba read those ayah and kept the Quran ORALLY only?

Then where is the written Quran of Muhammad ? Bring me the book written by Muhammad's hand and I will finally agree with all your arguments, right now.

To this Just imagine, if today you were to trust on an oral transmission of the revealed verses, I think you would flee Islam diligently for the same reasons that you reject Ahadiths Collection Books.

Your answer was Yes you're absolutely right. I would reject them.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600535.msg250349#msg250349

Do you seriously trust in those compnions who compiled books of revealed verses (they were Bukhari, Muslim, Kulayni of their era) ? Do you trust in Zayd b. Thabit ?

If the Quran alone movement was so weak, why can't you answer any of our questions?

I tried to do my best.

jawad_mugniya

It is an individual thought, as instructed in Quran, not a sheep following mentality

Fortunately and by chance, it was not an invidual thought during Muhammad's era because he was alone to be the source of emulation and those around him were following him like sheep (sorry to say this but it's a picture). This is the main reason of Islam's success ! Centralization of thoughts and not INDIVIDUAL THOUGHTS.

Bring me the name of one Companion of Muhammad who argued with him or discussed with him about salat, hajj, siyam, zakat on behalf of "INDIVIDUAL THOUGHT", and I will immediately accept all your arguments.

One name, not two, not three, not four, only one !

I think you don't realize what you are writing.

Ayisha

Do you seriously trust in those compnions who compiled books of revealed verses (they were Bukhari, Muslim, Kulayni of their era) ? Do you trust in Zayd b. Thabit ?

I tried to do my best.

Bukhari muslim etc were not companions, the hadith are not 'revealed verses' ???

jawad_mugniya

Bukhari muslim etc were not companions, the hadith are not 'revealed verses' ???

Risible answer from you. I am not talking about their status but abour their role in writing down revealed verses (which were audible informations)

Ayisha

Fortunately and by chance, it was not an invidual thought during Muhammad's era because he was alone to be the source of emulation and those around him were following him like sheep (sorry to say this but it's a picture). This is the main reason of Islam's success ! Centralization of thoughts and not INDIVIDUAL THOUGHTS.
success? You can have success in many things but the success, as you call it, of Islam is its failure. Success would be to follow the Book, failure is not to follow the Book but to follow other books.

Bring me the name of one Companion of Muhammad who argued with him or discussed with him about salat, hajj, siyam, zakat on behalf of "INDIVIDUAL THOUGHT", and I will immediately accept all your arguments.

One name, not two, not three, not four, only one !

you dont get it at all do you? they are DEAD. whether any argued with him or not, and I am sure there WILL be a hadith claiming some did, it is not relevant as we have the revealed verses that was the message from GOD, not any other message from Muhammed himself, but the message he was to deliver from GOD.

The hadith even have Muhammed and Moses arguing with GOD HIMSELF about the prayers!

I think you don't realize what you are writing.

I was well aware what I was writing. How many verses say 'for men of understanding' 'for those that reflect' etc? you think it means as a group? you think it means one or two men who claim to have understanding will tell you what it means? Are we to stand before God on Judgement day as a group or as individuals?

afridi220