Here is my Ultimate Answer to the Top Question of Sunnis and Shiites
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Lovely. Defeat the ridiculous with another ridiculous! bravo
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.I know, totally.
Thank you, thank you, i'll be here most of the week....any beyond, God willing.
Of course there are so many more questions i got for sunnis but a day in Slovenia is only 24 solar hours long ..... '( '(
Peace. -
peace AK85, all,
You may find this article helpful
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htmSecondly, when people make the argument The Quran does not contain XYZ, therefore its claim of being complete, every example, fully clarified etc is not to be understood how you understand it, i.e. all we need, I like to make the following analogy
When you buy a self-assembly piece of furniture (e.g. from Ikea) and it comes with full/complete/detailed instructions, what does the word "full/complete/detailed" refer to?
In other words, it is full/complete/detailed with respect to its purpose/goal.
Great article. Pretty much imho it all comes down to people rejecting those verses/not being familiar with the Qu'ran
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peace AK85, all,
Secondly, when people make the argument The Quran does not contain XYZ, therefore its claim of being complete, every example, fully clarified etc is not to be understood how you understand it, i.e. all we need, I like to make the following analogy
When you buy a self-assembly piece of furniture (e.g. from Ikea) and it comes with full/complete/detailed instructions, what does the word "full/complete/detailed" refer to?
In other words, it is full/complete/detailed with respect to its purpose/goal.
Peace Wakas,
You missed the main point i.e. the use of the hammer, screwdriver, etc. that is necessary for the job, is not given in the instruction set. It is assumed that someone else has taught you the use of such things. Otherwise, someone may try to hit the nails with the Handle or do other bad things with it.
I am not advocating Bukhari hadith. Hadith does not teach us Contract Prayer (salat). Nobody learn salat from hadith. It is a physical act (including Quran recitation) and as such it is passed on by mimicking the physical act from others (Prophet Muhammad being the original source for us). In the absence of hadith, we would still have the details of Contact Prayer.
The approach advocated by some people, here at Free-Minds, is WRONG. Because they themselves has shown their approach begets 2, 3, ? salat per day which contradicts Quranic verses. In the name of Quran, they are fabricating modern innovation.
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Given my frequent moves, I'm well acquainted with Ikea manuals. They tell you which tools to use and it doesn't take a genius to figure out how a hammer or screwdriver is used, I don't recall anyone ever teaching me that. Heck they even tell you which direction to turn it in and point the hammer the right way too. The first time I saw an allan/allen? key (let alone it being used) was with Ikea furniture...and I did it all by myself too. Very nice manuals they are. Just keeping the analogy going.
The approach advocated by some people, here at Free-Minds, is WRONG. Because they themselves has shown their approach begets 2, 3, ? salat per day which contradicts Quranic verses. In the name of Quran, they are fabricating modern innovation.
Can you be more specific? Ancient innovations are alright then? If one can't learn salat from hadith and one admits that innovations (ancient/modern) have creeped into practices practised today...then how sure is anyone that that practice is correct unless you check it against the quran? And if it does check out with the quran, why is that wrong even if it is different from what ancient people did? -
I must have got lost somewhere as I thought Quran was the message from the Creator in how to please Him and to get the ultimate reward for us in the end, complete with fully detailed instructions on how to do that, for 'men of understanding'. I had no idea that Ikea flat pack instructions were part of that or how dinosaurs lived and that we need to look in bukhari for that, which of course even bukhari failed on that part. Obviously Bukharis furniture was ready made and not from Ikea or these simple instructions are also part of the mysterious secret revelation to Muhammed. I do wonder how he dealt with the fact the Ikea company was not even formed yet or the man Ingvar Kamprad was not even born yet --- maybe HE was a messenger too for giving us these enlightening instructions!
However, I dont think Ikea instructions or how to use a hammer and nails or what colour dinosaurs were have any relevance to how to please Allah or how to pray, unless one is really supposed to pray on an Ikea bathmat.
The Quran itself SAYS it is fully detailed and complete with every example Allah wants us to know, so if the 'detail' of prayer/zakat/charity/flatpacks isnt there then its not relevant to HIM or to US in our salvation and pleasing HIM as neither is the colour of dinosaurs or the Haynes manual for a Honda 90
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Given my frequent moves, I'm well acquainted with Ikea manuals. They tell you which tools to use and it doesn't take a genius to figure out how a hammer or screwdriver is used, I don't recall anyone ever teaching me that. Heck they even tell you which direction to turn it in and point the hammer the right way too. The first time I saw an allan/allen? key (let alone it being used) was with Ikea furniture...and I did it all by myself too. Very nice manuals they are. Just keeping the analogy going.
Can you be more specific? Ancient innovations are alright then? If one can't learn salat from hadith and one admits that innovations (ancient/modern) have creeped into practices practised today...then how sure is anyone that that practice is correct unless you check it against the quran? And if it does check out with the quran, why is that wrong even if it is different from what ancient people did?Peace,
There is always prerequisite for any book or manuals. You can ask the author, if you do not believe me.
One clear example is Sincere hart for the Quran.
SC Ancient innovations are alright then?
NO. Allah has given us the capability to discern truth from falsehood. If we care to invest the time to understand Allah?s system, we will find the truth.
SC And if it does check out with the quran, why is that wrong even if it is different from what ancient people did?
This is why Your thinking contradicts 2173.
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah is the teacher. He taught(inspired) Contact Prayer to certain people. One of them is Prophet Muhammad who was a gentile Prophet. He in turn taught us the Contact Prayer.
4101 - When you travel, during war, you commit no error by shortening your Contact Prayers (Salat), if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you. Surely, the disbelievers are your ardent enemies.
Shorten clearly imply that there is a complete (detailed) structure to Contact Prayer (simple logical deduction).
In my opinion, whenever the Exact Contract Prayer is lost, Allah will restore it via imams (inspiration). Your concept of ad-hoc Contact Prayer is UNQURANIC.
1959 - After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.
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The Quran itself SAYS it is fully detailed and complete with every example Allah wants us to know, so if the 'detail' of prayer/zakat/charity/flatpacks isnt there then its not relevant to HIM or to US in our salvation and pleasing HIM as neither is the colour of dinosaurs or the Haynes manual for a Honda 90
Peace,
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
If the details of Contact Prayer is not relevant to us then Why did Allah teach the imams how to observe Contact Prayer?
He did not teach imams the Contact Prayer so that he could keep it to himself, like you want us to believe. He did it this way so that people can learn from a righteous leader. This is fully consistent with the Quran.
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There is always prerequisite for any book or manuals. You can ask the author, if you do not believe me.
One clear example is Sincere hart for the Quran.
What it doesn't do is to tell you to go seek instructions from somewhere else when it calls itself detailed in regards to what we need for our salvation. Does George R.R. Martin tell you to go read Outbound Flight to find out what happened to Jon Snow? Like the analogy, you don't need to have a certified training course in the usage of an allen key...it fits the screws and you know that you have to turn it, just like you give a shape sorter to a baby and he knows what to do if he is at the age appropriate level...makes sense for those that use their God given faculties. God wouldn't give you a book and then expect anyone reading it anywhere to know some other "Muslim", watch them do stuff and then follow suit to understand what the quran says about salat. That is illogical for a book that calls itself detailed, clear and all we need for our salvation. It's only reasonable then for it to also contain the subject of salat if it is so important, and if the book is detailed, clear and all we need for everything relevant to what we need in regards to that purpose... Why go anywhere else?NO. Allah has given us the capability to discern truth from falsehood. If we care to invest the time to understand Allah?s system, we will find the truth.
You discern truth from falsehood by reasoning. If we care to invest the time to understand Allah's system then a book calling itself detailed, clear and all we need for our salvation is really... all one needs. Not to sift through all manners/sects of "Muslims" trying to figure out the ONLY true way of salat and that it MUST be one of them. Like trying to sift through all manners of hadith and taking a stab in a dark thinking that might be true and that might not be. I'd rather deal with solid stuff, that is the book that calls itself detailed, clear and all we need for our salvation. What does that say about salat? I think there are plenty of threads here that discuss that.SC And if it does check out with the quran, why is that wrong even if it is different from what ancient people did?
This is why Your thinking contradicts 2173.
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah is the teacher. He taught(inspired) Contact Prayer to certain people. One of them is Prophet Muhammad who was a gentile Prophet. He in turn taught us the Contact Prayer.
4101 - When you travel, during war, you commit no error by shortening your Contact Prayers (Salat), if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you. Surely, the disbelievers are your ardent enemies.
Shorten clearly imply that there is a complete (detailed) structure to Contact Prayer (simple logical deduction).
In my opinion, whenever the Exact Contract Prayer is lost, Allah will restore it via imams (inspiration). Your concept of ad-hoc Contact Prayer is UNQURANIC.
1959 - After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.2173 doesn't mean that 1959 won't happen again. Allah is the teacher and the quran is the message that will be protected. So if one fears "innovation" which has already happened in the "salat" practised by millions, we check with the "official word" on salat i.e. quran to try to discern the truth. 4101 I'm not sure why you brought up here because I'm not contesting anything about salat other than to use the quran to discern the truth. Not following another "Muslim" to discern the truth, or to trawl through reams of contested literature. Please provide specific evidence for "inspirational restoration of lost practices via imams" after the quran has been revealed.
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peace guest,
You missed the main point i.e. the use of the hammer, screwdriver, etc. that is necessary for the job, is not given in the instruction set. It is assumed that someone else has taught you the use of such things. Otherwise, someone may try to hit the nails with the Handle or do other bad things with it.
That is not the main point at all. At the very most it can be a point, a small one at that, certainly not the main one. In any case, of course a guide assumes certain things, every book does, however the objections you raise are not "necessary" as you claim. One may not need to use a hammer, one could use a rock, a frying pan etc And one may use a knife with a suitable end-point to act as a screwdriver etc. The point is, a guide is complete/full/detailed with respect to its goal/purpose.
Personally, from my own Quran studies of over 13 years I have never come across any significant thing that was not clarified after study. With regard to the salat/bond issue, it is clear there for everyone to see. Bear in mind .
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Peace,
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
If the details of Contact Prayer is not relevant to us then Why did Allah teach the imams how to observe Contact Prayer?
He did not teach imams the Contact Prayer so that he could keep it to himself, like you want us to believe. He did it this way so that people can learn from a righteous leader. This is fully consistent with the Quran.
I dont like Khan translation.
This verse is speaking about the prophets and they established regular prayer, which they all did. It says nothing about the detail HOW to do this but there are MANY verses saying the same, 'establish' regular prayer. There are also many verses telling you WHAT they did in prayer, like bow, prostrate, standing, reciting the Book, remembrance of Allah. Now if what ALL the prophets did was the same exactly as Muhammed did in detail what parts of Quran did they recite? Did they also add Muhammed to their prayers? Did Muhammed himself add himself to his prayer?Considering that all through Quran Allah is warning you of what was done before to His message, He is not going to miss anything out which is relevant that could possibly be added/rearranged/invented later by enemies of Islam is He? So every DETAIL we need to know about how to pray IS in there for us to see, as I have just said. Because you claim that the way Muslims pray nowdays is as the prophet taught does not mean it IS they way he taught, as I am 100% sure he did not add himself to any prayer he ever 'established'
The prayer is for us to remember ALLAH Alone, and this leads to purity. It is not for us to remember Allah AND Muhammed, it is not TO Allah and Muhammed. It is when we are 'connected' to Allah Alone and to stand, bow, prostrate, recite, with ALL our heart, soul and mind connected to Allah Alone and not worrying about if our feet are pointing in the right direction or if our hands are in the right position. So for what the prayer IS, is all in Quran. For what the prayer is NOT, is all in hadith that you claim the prophet said, when he couldnt have.
So in the line of flatpack instructions the Quran has
attach (a) to (b), attach (c) = (d)
what you insist you need is
open (see appendix A for definition of 'open' package (see appendix B for definition of 'package' by tearing (see appendix C for definition of 'tearing' open (refer to appendix A) with hands (see appandix D on position of hands before proceeding) or using a sharp (see appendix E for definition of 'sharp' object (see appendix F for definition of 'object' inserted (see appendix G for definition of 'inserted' and moving (see appendix H for definition of 'moving' in one direction (see appendix I for definition of 'direction' making sure (see appendix J for 'how to make sure' not to cut yourself (see appendix K for why you dont want to cut yourself) with said sharp object (refer to appendix E and F).see what I mean? and still not got the package open and have now forgotten what it was you bought from IKEA! now obvioulsy some people are not as bright to follow 'attach a to b, attach c = d' and dont see that these are the instructions and one needs to use ones brain to establish what a, b and c are so they go off to the man at the mosque or a neighbour or father and ask what is a, b and c and how do I open the package so they are given a nice ready made 'd' so they dont have to bother. Sadly 'd' falls apart in less than a week as it also has bits of e, f, g, h and i added from another package to make it all fit as the maker of this ready made construction also didnt understand 'attach a to b, attach c = d' and watched some cowboy make it up as he went along.
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What it doesn't do is to tell you to go seek instructions from somewhere else when it calls itself detailed in regards to what we need for our salvation. Does George R.R. Martin tell you to go read Outbound Flight to find out what happened to Jon Snow? Like the analogy, you don't need to have a certified training course in the usage of an allen key...it fits the screws and you know that you have to turn it, just like you give a shape sorter to a baby and he knows what to do if he is at the age appropriate level...makes sense for those that use their God given faculties. God wouldn't give you a book and then expect anyone reading it anywhere to know some other "Muslim", watch them do stuff and then follow suit to understand what the quran says about salat. That is illogical for a book that calls itself detailed, clear and all we need for our salvation. It's only reasonable then for it to also contain the subject of salat if it is so important, and if the book is detailed, clear and all we need for everything relevant to what we need in regards to that purpose... Why go anywhere else?
You discern truth from falsehood by reasoning. If we care to invest the time to understand Allah's system then a book calling itself detailed, clear and all we need for our salvation is really... all one needs. Not to sift through all manners/sects of "Muslims" trying to figure out the ONLY true way of salat and that it MUST be one of them. Like trying to sift through all manners of hadith and taking a stab in a dark thinking that might be true and that might not be. I'd rather deal with solid stuff, that is the book that calls itself detailed, clear and all we need for our salvation. What does that say about salat? I think there are plenty of threads here that discuss that.
2173 doesn't mean that 1959 won't happen again. Allah is the teacher and the quran is the message that will be protected. So if one fears "innovation" which has already happened in the "salat" practised by millions, we check with the "official word" on salat i.e. quran to try to discern the truth. 4101 I'm not sure why you brought up here because I'm not contesting anything about salat other than to use the quran to discern the truth. Not following another "Muslim" to discern the truth, or to trawl through reams of contested literature. Please provide specific evidence for "inspirational restoration of lost practices via imams" after the quran has been revealed.Peace s_c,
531 - GOD then sent a raven to scratch the soil, to teach him how to bury his brother's corpse. He said, "Woe to me; I failed to be as intelligent as this raven, and bury my brother's corpse." He became ridden with remorse.
And Allah sent Prophet Muhammad to re-establish Allah?s system on earth to include the salat.
Salat is there for us. I don?t need another book to learn salat.
If innovation sips in it, Allah raises imam to correct it. This is what I get from the Quran. This is how salat is preserved.
I find RK?s explanation of salat very informative.
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peace guest,
One may not need to use a hammer, one could use a rock, a frying pan etc And one may use a knife with a suitable end-point to act as a screwdriver etc. The point is, a guide is complete/full/detailed with respect to its goal/purpose.
Peace Wakas,
That is precisely my point; you are using some other knowledge or skill (that is not detailed in the guide) to comply with instruction in the guide without violating the guide.
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Peace guest,
531 is your specific evidence for restoration of lost practices via imams in regards to salat?
And Allah sent Prophet Muhammad to re-establish Allah?s system on earth to include the salat.
He came with the protected message so that if people lost salat, one could get back up to speed. It doesn't mean that the system that was put into place would stay the same forever as we have proof of corruption in the system now when checked with the quran.Salat is there for us. I don?t need another book to learn salat.
We need the quran as the criterion for any practice being established in the name of God.If innovation sips in it, Allah raises imam to correct it. This is what I get from the Quran. This is how salat is preserved.
If there is corruption in the system, we can't check with the quran but believe there will be "inspirational restoration of lost practices via imams"? No need to use the criterion then? Just to make sure even?I find RK?s explanation of salat very informative.
I find these links to be informative
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm -
Peace Ayisha,
Ayisha ?..It says nothing about the detail HOW to do this ??
I am glad you got this part right.
The part you did not get is The details of salat were given (taught) to imams e.g. Prophet Muhammad.
Therefore, salat is learned from Prophet Muhammad and passed on. Any innovation will be rectified by Allah when corruption reaches the threshold point set by Allah.
Ayisha There are also many verses telling you WHAT they did in prayer, like bow, prostrate, standing, reciting the Book, remembrance of Allah.
Yes, these verses does not nullify 2173 (which says imams has the details of salat)
Ayisha ?. Muhammed did in detail what parts of Quran did they recite?
Chapter 1 of Quran (content).
Ayisha Did they also add Muhammed to their prayers?
No, that is an innovation.
Ayisha Did Muhammed himself add himself to his prayer?
No, that is an innovation.
Ayisha Considering that all through Quran Allah is warning you of what was done before to His message, He is not going to miss anything out which is relevant that could possibly be added/rearranged/invented later by enemies of Islam is He?
He did not miss anything that is necessary for our salvation, just that salat come to us differently. Both Quran and salat is preserved. Any innovation will be exposed. People with sincere heart will detect and shun the innovation.
Ayisha ?..IS they way he taught, as I am 100% sure he did not add himself to any prayer he ever 'established'
After you remove the innovation, it is restored back. It?s that easy.
Ayisha The prayer is for us to remember ALLAH Alone, and this leads to purity. It is not for us to remember Allah AND Muhammed, it is not TO Allah and Muhammed
True.
Ayisha It is when we are 'connected' to Allah Alone and to stand, bow, prostrate, recite, with ALL our heart, soul and mind connected to Allah Alone and not worrying about if our feet are pointing in the right direction or if our hands are in the right position.
The True structure i.e. correct number of bow, prostrate, recite comes from Allah to us via Prophet Muhammad. Your way will give rise to a chaotic situation in congregation (group) prayer.
Ayisha For what the prayer is NOT, is all in hadith that you claim the prophet said, when he couldnt have.
I never said that. If you do not correct this statement then you are a liar.
Ayisha .. see what I mean?
No, you are talking rubbish.
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Peace guest,
531 is your specific evidence for restoration of lost practices via imams in regards to salat?
He came with the protected message so that if people lost salat, one could get back up to speed. It doesn't mean that the system that was put into place would stay the same forever as we have proof of corruption in the system now when checked with the quran.We need the quran as the criterion for any practice being established in the name of God.If there is corruption in the system, we can't check with the quran but believe there will be "inspirational restoration of lost practices via imams"? No need to use the criterion then? Just to make sure even?I find these links to be informative
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmPeace s_c,
s_c 531 is your specific evidence for restoration of lost practices via imams in regards to salat?
No, there are other verses that talks to it as well
835 - Their Contact Prayers (Salat) at the shrine (Ka`bah) were no more than a mockery and a means of repelling the people (by crowding them out). Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief.
Here we have evidence of corrupted salat being corrected by Prophet Muhammad.
1959 - After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.
The new generation must have gotten the correct salat from an imam.
9122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.
More evidence of passing information to others.
2179 - We granted Solomon the correct understanding, though we endowed both of them with wisdom and knowledge. We committed the mountains to serve David in glorifying (God), as well as the birds. This is what we did.
It is clear from above, not everybody has correct understanding. Allah inspire it to whom ever He wills
s_c He came with the protected message so that if people lost salat, one could get back up to speed. It doesn't mean that the system that was put into place would stay the same forever as we have proof of corruption in the system now when checked with the quran.
Allah?s system is immutable. It is the same no matter when and for how long it is implemented on Earth.
s_c We need the quran as the criterion for any practice being established in the name of God.
You can apply Quranic criterion to traditional salat and recover the salat practice by Prophet Muhammad.
Here is an example http//www.submission.org/salat-how.html
Salat described here does NOT violate the Quranic criterion.
It is really gratifying to see that the physical portion of the salat is preserved for 1400 years.
Free-minds use different approach that destroys the authentic portion of traditional salat. This is not acceptable. It has been demonstrated that free-minds approach do generate 2 salats/day, or 3 salats/day, and so on. You get salat of your liking. And this cannot be Allah system period. A divergent salat system at work.
s_c If there is corruption in the system, we can't check with the quran but believe there will be "inspirational restoration of lost practices via imams"? No need to use the criterion then? Just to make sure even?
It is compliant with the Quranic criterion; only the imam is inspired to make such correction. The outcome is in harmony with the Quran. Again here is an example http//www.submission.org/salat-how.html
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Peace Ayisha,
Ayisha ?..It says nothing about the detail HOW to do this ??
I am glad you got this part right.
The part you did not get is The details of salat were given (taught) to imams e.g. Prophet Muhammad.
Therefore, salat is learned from Prophet Muhammad and passed on. Any innovation will be rectified by Allah when corruption reaches the threshold point set by Allah.
so we should be about due another final messenger thenAyisha There are also many verses telling you WHAT they did in prayer, like bow, prostrate, standing, reciting the Book, remembrance of Allah.
Yes, these verses does not nullify 2173 (which says imams has the details of salat)
I dont agree that ANY verse nullifies another in Quran, you obviously take verses out of context, 2173 is about the son and grandson of Abraham, Prophets Isaac and Jacob, it is THEM that were made into imams (leaders), and all the prophets established the prayer.Ayisha ?. Muhammed did in detail what parts of Quran did they recite?
Chapter 1 of Quran (content).
You didnt read my question or only part of it, as you take Quran verses out of context you are doing the same with my post. All the other prophets did not recite Al FatihahAyisha Did they also add Muhammed to their prayers?
No, that is an innovation.
Ayisha Did Muhammed himself add himself to his prayer?
No, that is an innovation.
so in your prayers and the prayers of all the 1.5 billion muslims they do not ever mention Muhammed in the prayer? Tashahud is it called? How about the bit 'ash hadu anla illaha ill Allah, ash hadu ana Muhammed ar-rasool Allah? isnt that adding to the prayer? I agree it is an innovation.
Ayisha Considering that all through Quran Allah is warning you of what was done before to His message, He is not going to miss anything out which is relevant that could possibly be added/rearranged/invented later by enemies of Islam is He?
He did not miss anything that is necessary for our salvation, just that salat come to us differently. Both Quran and salat is preserved. Any innovation will be exposed. People with sincere heart will detect and shun the innovation.
I agree He missed nothing out but I disagree that prayer didnt come to us from God in the Books. The Quran is preserved, nothing else as can be seen by how so many do pray differently depending on which school of thought they or their local mosque conforms to. If it is necessary to our salvation, its in Quran. I do detect and shun that innovation as do many here. The innovation IS exposed.Ayisha ?..IS they way he taught, as I am 100% sure he did not add himself to any prayer he ever 'established'
After you remove the innovation, it is restored back. It?s that easy.
How can you say that? Its obvioulsy not that easy or you would see the innovation that you are defending.Ayisha The prayer is for us to remember ALLAH Alone, and this leads to purity. It is not for us to remember Allah AND Muhammed, it is not TO Allah and Muhammed
True.
Ayisha It is when we are 'connected' to Allah Alone and to stand, bow, prostrate, recite, with ALL our heart, soul and mind connected to Allah Alone and not worrying about if our feet are pointing in the right direction or if our hands are in the right position.
The True structure i.e. correct number of bow, prostrate, recite comes from Allah to us via Prophet Muhammad. Your way will give rise to a chaotic situation in congregation (group) prayer.
is that the best you can come up with as support of the hadith and reason enough to put Quran out as not quite complete and detailed with all you need to do in prayer? Well we wouldnt like to cause chaos in congregational prayer so lets all do the innovation bits so we all look good in a line huh? )Ayisha For what the prayer is NOT, is all in hadith that you claim the prophet said, when he couldnt have.
I never said that. If you do not correct this statement then you are a liar.
it was a global 'you' to hadith followers because 'you' got your prayer from another hadith instead of the BEST hadith of Allah.Ayisha .. see what I mean?
No, you are talking rubbish.
No I think if you look you will see its you that is talking rubbish
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Peace guest,
Free-minds use different approach that destroys the authentic portion of traditional salat. This is not acceptable. It has been demonstrated that free-minds approach do generate 2 salats/day, or 3 salats/day, and so on. You get salat of your liking. And this cannot be Allah system period. A divergent salat system at work.
I have now read your previous "debates" on salat with other users. I think the outcome is clear. There is no need to rehash the same tired arguments. Thank you for your time. -
If there is "divergence of salat" then we must examine where the divergence comes from. The salat prescribed by Allah has no intrinsic divergence because that is the nature of a perfect God. So if there is any divergence then "Allah" does not exist OR your definition of "salat" is not from "Allah" OR there is nothing wrong with divergence.
It is noted that there is a mass amount of variations in the so called "salat" from all sects that use a ritual salat.
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so we should be about due another final messenger then
I dont agree that ANY verse nullifies another in Quran, you obviously take verses out of context, 2173 is about the son and grandson of Abraham, Prophets Isaac and Jacob, it is THEM that were made into imams (leaders), and all the prophets established the prayer.
You didnt read my question or only part of it, as you take Quran verses out of context you are doing the same with my post. All the other prophets did not recite Al Fatihahso in your prayers and the prayers of all the 1.5 billion muslims they do not ever mention Muhammed in the prayer? Tashahud is it called? How about the bit 'ash hadu anla illaha ill Allah, ash hadu ana Muhammed ar-rasool Allah? isnt that adding to the prayer? I agree it is an innovation.
I agree He missed nothing out but I disagree that prayer didnt come to us from God in the Books. The Quran is preserved, nothing else as can be seen by how so many do pray differently depending on which school of thought they or their local mosque conforms to. If it is necessary to our salvation, its in Quran. I do detect and shun that innovation as do many here. The innovation IS exposed.
How can you say that? Its obvioulsy not that easy or you would see the innovation that you are defending.
is that the best you can come up with as support of the hadith and reason enough to put Quran out as not quite complete and detailed with all you need to do in prayer? Well we wouldnt like to cause chaos in congregational prayer so lets all do the innovation bits so we all look good in a line huh? )
it was a global 'you' to hadith followers because 'you' got your prayer from another hadith instead of the BEST hadith of Allah.
No I think if you look you will see its you that is talking rubbishPeace Ayisha,
Ayisha so we should be about due another final messenger then
Who said anything about ?another final messenger?? You are confused. Plus you failed to understand the Allah?s system
Please read the following verses that is taken from the FULLY DETAILED BOOK and tell me what you learned from it ? Quiz
1865 - They found one of our servants, whom we blessed with mercy, and bestowed upon him from our own knowledge.
1866 - Moses said to him, "Can I follow you, that you may teach me some of the knowledge and the guidance bestowed upon you?"
1867 - He said, "You cannot stand to be with me."
1868 - "How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"
1869 - He said, "You will find me, GOD willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
1870 - He said, "If you follow me, then you shall not ask me about anything, unless I choose to tell you about it."
I will be nice and withdraw the quiz and save you the embarrassment. I will give you the answer
Moses got a BOOK from Allah. Yet we find him following another source for knowledge and guidance. Are you saying Moses went astray?
You should read the Quran with sincere heart and then come back and debate.
1857 - Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.
Here is the MOTHER QUIZ (CHALLENGE) for you and the Quran Alone advocates (free-minds)
Provide a CLEAR DEFINITION of what is meant by QURAN ALONE.
And I will show you that majority of the position developed by free-minds contradicts the definition. This is how weak you are. Your own definition will disprove your writings (innovation).
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peace guest, all,
Ironically, the homepage of free-minds.org states "God alone" multiple times, never "Quran alone".
As is quite common in debates, weak debaters prefer the use of strawman argument
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
