Here is my Ultimate Answer to the Top Question of Sunnis and Shiites
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ok I am well aware this is going off topic now but im on a roll so im going to ask.
@ guest. I read your link. I like the fact Khalifa refers to Quran verses for just about all, apart from this
What Nullifies Ablution
Digestive excretions through the intestines, including gas, solids, or urine nullify ablution. Sleeping also nullifies ablution, since one becomes unaware. Thus one may observe a number of Contact Prayers with one ablution, provided he or she does not go to the bathroom, pass gas, or fall asleep.
Now he has put NOT ONE Quranic verse to show where he gets that from, so perhaps you can tell me? Was this 'inspired' or is it from HADITH?
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ok I am well aware this is going off topic now but im on a roll so im going to ask.
@ guest. I read your link. I like the fact Khalifa refers to Quran verses for just about all, apart from this
What Nullifies Ablution
Digestive excretions through the intestines, including gas, solids, or urine nullify ablution. Sleeping also nullifies ablution, since one becomes unaware. Thus one may observe a number of Contact Prayers with one ablution, provided he or she does not go to the bathroom, pass gas, or fall asleep.
Now he has put NOT ONE Quranic verse to show where he gets that from, so perhaps you can tell me? Was this 'inspired' or is it from HADITH?
Peace Ayisha.
Dr. Khalifa seems to have forgotten to include the verse which states these things. He is a man after all and not perfect.
The above scenarios which nullify ablution are contained in 56
Transliteration Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona
Literal You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones, and if you wereimpure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned , and if you were sick/diseased or on (a) journey/trip/voyage or one of you came from the safe hidden depression in the ground (toilet), or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust good/pure dust, so rub/wipe with your faces and your hands from it, God does not want to make/put on you strain/hardship, and but He wants to purify you mentally and physically and to complete (E) His blessing on you, maybe/perhaps you thank/be grateful.
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
Pickthal O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
Arberry O believers, when you stand up to pray wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and your feet up to the ankles. If you are defiled, purify yourselves; but if you are sick or on a journey, or if any of you comes from the privy, or you have touched women, and you can find no water, then have recourse to wholesome dust and wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not desire to make any impediment for you; but He desires to purify you, and that He may complete His blessing upon you; haply you will be thankful.
Shakir O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.
Sarwar It is unlawful for you to consume the following as food an animal that has not been properly slaughtered, blood, pork, an animal slaughtered and consecrated in the name of someone other than God, an animal killed by strangulation or a violent blow, an animal killed by falling down, an animal which has been gored to death, an animal partly eaten by a wild beast before being properly slaughtered, an animal which has been sacrificed on the stone blocks (which pagans worshipped), and any flesh divided by casting superstitious and gambling arrows (a pagan tradition), which is a sin. Today, the unbelievers have lost hope about your religion. Do not be afraid of them but have fear of Me. On this day I have perfected your religion, completed My favors to you, and have chosen Islam as your religion. If anyone not (normally) inclined to sin is forced by hunger to eat unlawful substances instead of proper food, he may do so to spare his life. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Khalifa O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
Hilali/Khan O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.
H/K/Saheeh O you who have believed, when you rise to prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.
Malik O believers! When you rise up for Salah (prayer), wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, wipe your heads with wet hands and wash your feet to the ankles. If you had an emission of semen, then take a full bath. However, if you are sick or on a journey or you have used the toilet or you had intercourse with your women (your wives) and you do not find any water then resort to Tayammum - find clean soil and rub your faces and hands with it. Allah does not wish to burden you; He only wishes to purify you and to perfect His favor upon you, so that you may be thankful.
QXP O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When you congregate for Salat, wash your faces and your forearms, hands to the elbows. Lightly rub you heads and your feet to the ankles. If you are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But, if you are ill or traveling, or coming from the privy, or are in a state of ceremonial impurity and find no water, then take clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands. (This will help you prepare mentally for congregational prayer (443)). Allah does not wish to place upon you any difficulty, but to make you clean and to perfect His blessings upon you, that you be grateful.
Maulana Ali O you who believe, when you rise up for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if you are under an obligation, then wash (yourselves). And if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you comes from the privy, or you have had contact with women and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith. Allah desires not to place a burden on you but He wishes to purify you, and that He may complete His favour on you, so that you may give thanks.
Free Minds O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
Qaribullah Believers, when you rise to pray wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbow, and wipe your heads and (wash) your feet to the ankle. If you are in a state of impurity, cleanse yourselves. But if you are sick or traveling, or, if when you have just relieved yourselves or had intercourse with women and you cannot find water, touch the clean surface of the earth and rub your hands and faces with it. Allah does not wish to burden you, He seeks only to purify you and to complete His Favor to you in order that you may thank.
George Sale O true believers, when ye prepare your selves to pray, wash your faces, and your hands unto the elbows; and rub your heads, and your feet unto the ancles; and if ye be polluted by having lain with a woman, wash your selves all over. But if ye be sick, or on a journey, or any of you cometh from the privy, or if ye have touched women, and ye find no water, take fine clean sand, and rub your faces and your hands therewith; God would not put a difficulty upon you; but he desireth to purify you, and to complete his favour upon you, that ye may give thanks.
JM Rodwell O Believers! when ye address yourselves to prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbow, and wipe your heads, and your feet to the ankles. And if ye have become unclean, then purify yourselves. But if ye are sick, or on a journey, or if one of y
Asad O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your hands lightly over your head, and your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total Y ablution, purify yourselves." But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.
Peace
P.S. I noticed that Sarwar's translation seems to be of another verse, there is obviously some kind of mistake on the site I got this from
but the rest of the translations seem to fit with 56
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Thanks AK and I know the verse, but passing wind is not in it, sleeping is not in it and sexual contact is and contact or touching a woman is. I agree he has put sexual contact in a separate bit and put 443 as reference but it is in this verse too and I think there is also another contact with women not sexual contact in this verse.
according to this and traditional views
What Nullifies AblutionDigestive excretions through the intestines, including gas, solids, or urine nullify ablution. Sleeping also nullifies ablution, since one becomes unaware. Thus one may observe a number of Contact Prayers with one ablution, provided he or she does not go to the bathroom, pass gas, or fall asleep.
If I do ablution in the morning as long as I dont fall asleep (not in Quran), pass wind (not in Quran) go to the toilet or have sex (RK missed that one in what nullifies ablution) I am still clean to pray, even if I have been down to the shops in bare feet, trod in donkey pooh and got splashed by a horse peeing, I am still clean?
The point of the verse has been ignored. The point is to be clean, to purify yourself
Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.The start of the verse says 'when you STAND UP for prayer' not when you wake up. Everytime you stand to pray you wash. It says if you are in a state of ceremonial impurity, ie sexual impurity, then you 'purify' yourself differently, ie, entire body. Then it says BUT IF you are ill, on a journey, have come from the toilet or touched or had contact with a woman AND YOU CANT FIND WATER then clean earth. Considering the toilets were holes in the ground somewhere away from the home at that stage and the call to prayer was being called you CAN use clean earth as a ceremonial ritual of cleaning if you cant find water (there were no sinks and taps then). Now as this states had contact with or touched a woman it does not mean sexual contact in the 'BUT IF' part, it means any contact, touching even, shaking hands because the sexual contact has been taken care of in the first part of the verse which requires a more thorough 'purification' than washing hands face arms and feet with water or clean earth.
But what I am getting at is, every time you stand to pray you do ablution, there should be NO EXCUSE or anything that says 'what nullifies ablution', it is not THERE. It is precise, WHEN you stand up for prayer, not IF, WHEN, you wash. The BUT IF part is not things that nullify ablution but times when you cannot find water, which should be no problem nowdays anyway. Every prayer = new ablution. When you stand before your God you should be clean.
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okkkk guest.
I have done a bit of reading now.classic lolgic.
So your agenda is against your perception of Free Minds and the people on here, assuming that those who are not sunni or 19ers ALL think the same and follow some set rituals which are unlike your rituals that 'imam' Khalifa 'corrected. This whole thing is to get non-Khalifas to agree there are 'inspired imams' to this day? or up to Khalifa? If he is the messenger of the covenant and corrected the salat, who comes after him to correct it again when it gets corrupted, as it is STILL corrupted by so many?
Peace Ayisha,
When you say you follow the Quran only, do you really mean it, or are you just providing lip service to gain approval of some people on this forum, or are you just a show-off?
How do you explain the above accusation Did Allah revealed to you what is in my mind, or are you a mind reader, or is this what you learned from the Quran.
If you are a mind reader then you got it wrong, you failed to read my mind!!!
Your behavior is unQuranic. You are doing a great disservice to the Quran. Maybe that is your intention, only you and Allah knows. If your intention is otherwise, you should mend your conduct.
Maybe repentance is in order My Lord devil made me do it, unless you forgive me, I will be among the looser?? grant me wisdom so that I can do better next time?.
I seek the truth, it doesn?t matter where it comes from, Quran, RK, free-minds,?.. I provide constructive criticism where appropriate with justification from the Quran. From your post, it is clear that you did not understand the logic in my posts or the substance.
If you read my posts carefully, you will notice that I do not agree with RK on everything he said or advocated e.g. the theft punishment (marking) or the ?superhuman??.. Anything that makes sense to me I take it (consistence w/Quran).
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okkkk guest.
I have done a bit of reading now.No we have evidence of Quran correcting the entire meaning of salat. The people were not fearing Allah, they were not believers in Allah, they worshipped stones and animals. It has nothing to do with 'believers' in Allah not doing their 'contact prayers' properly or a 'corrupted salat'.
No, this is about corrupt salat being replaced by correct salat.
Thats lolgical! Do you think they 'lost' them behind a stone somewhere? a goat ate them? It means they stopped beleiving, they stopped woshipping Allah, they stopped fearing Allah, they didnt bother, they turned away onto other things as man does time and time again and worships something else, be it money, cars, people but not Allah. 'Pursued their lusts', nothing to do with 'details of salat'. Quran TELLS you all this!
The point is that the correct salat has been restored by an imam per Allah?s system described in 2173.
This is talking about the time OF the prophet when the Quran was being revealed, that is the religious information they would pass on, the Quran. Nothing wrong with passing on religious info of Quran, thats what the prophet did and thats what we ALL do here, including you, none of us are or have to be imams.
You need to do sincere reading as opposed to ?done a bit of reading now? to get the message. Prophet Muhammad was not with the group that was left behind. He was at war. Therefore, they weren?t getting any new revelation. They were studying the Quran (part or whole) they had. According to your concept, you don?t pass anything other than the Quran. Therefore, this group is not needed. Are you saying this is a false verse or Allah did not know what He was doing?
This is combining traditional salat with Quranic criterion and getting khalifa salat. Now I get what you're about.
No, this is the salat that we already knew with innovation removed. It converges as opposed to your salat approach that diverges and divides people.
of course Khalifa is the inspired imam in this?
Yes, he reestablished the correct salat (unity as opposed to divide)
I will say again, this verse is about Abraham, his son and grandson who were prophets. Do you claim Khalifa to be a prophet like these?
This verse is about how salat comes to us i.e. means (not via book). They were Prophet as well as messenger. Therefore, your question is irrelevant.
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You really are a piece of work guest. Is this another one of your Mother Challenges? If someone wants to take the conversation down to questioning logic and then on top of that act as if they are some grand poohbah toying with their prey by announcing inescapable logical traps (which mind you, have failed quite miserably in the past), the dude is kinda not someone one can have a reasonable discussion with. Get out of the challenge mindset, most of us aren't here for that.
To see guest's lolgic in action.
Peace s_c,
How do you define ?failed??
Please keep the following Quranic lessons in mind when defining ?failed?
- Prophet Hood i.e. we only found one family submitting
- One who was inside fish?s belly
- Noah
??????
???????
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Peace Ayisha,
When you say you follow the Quran only, do you really mean it, or are you just providing lip service to gain approval of some people on this forum, or are you just a show-off?
are you for real? I knew you wouldnt answer ANY of the points I have raised but I had to look, just incase. Anyway, I will continue to keep answering YOUR questions as my manners are better than yours.I mean Quran only. I dont care if I get approval of anyone, on this forum or others or in real life, as long as MY built in instinct says I am right on my path I dont care if I am the only one on it! How is that showing off please?
How do you explain the above accusation Did Allah revealed to you what is in my mind, or are you a mind reader, or is this what you learned from the Quran.
If you are a mind reader then you got it wrong, you failed to read my mind!!!
Just as you thought you could answer a quiz you gave me thinking you could read my mind? I read a few of your posts, looked at the links you said were where you got your salat info from and saw you post that you liked RK translation best among other things said in support of RK. Bit better than reading minds there I think.Your behavior is unQuranic. You are doing a great disservice to the Quran. Maybe that is your intention, only you and Allah knows. If your intention is otherwise, you should mend your conduct.
so is yours, so are you, ditto, so should you.Maybe repentance is in order My Lord devil made me do it, unless you forgive me, I will be among the looser?? grant me wisdom so that I can do better next time?.
I am sure if you are sincere in your repentance Allah will forgive you.I seek the truth, it doesn?t matter where it comes from, Quran, RK, free-minds,?.. I provide constructive criticism where appropriate with justification from the Quran. From your post, it is clear that you did not understand the logic in my posts or the substance.
I also seek the truth and I also dont care where it comes from, it comes from many sources to allow me a better undertanding of Quran. From your posts it is clear there is no logic, or substance to understand.If you read my posts carefully, you will notice that I do not agree with RK on everything he said or advocated e.g. the theft punishment (marking) or the ?superhuman??.. Anything that makes sense to me I take it (consistence w/Quran).
And if you read my posts you will also see that I do not agree with everything free Minds do, if you could possibly put them as a 'group', which personally I dont think you can, that as far as I see it is the point of 'Free Minds'. Anything that makes sense to me I take it if it is consitant with Quran, according to my built in instinct. (BS radar)
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No, this is about corrupt salat being replaced by correct salat.
834 Have they not deserved GOD's retribution, by repelling others from the Sacred Masjid, even though they are not the custodians thereof? The true custodians thereof are the righteous, but most of them do not know.
835 Their Contact Prayers (Salat) at the shrine (Ka`bah) were no more than a mockery and a means of repelling the people (by crowding them out). Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief.
No we have evidence of Quran correcting the entire meaning of salat. The people were not fearing Allah, they were not believers in Allah, they worshipped stones and animals. It has nothing to do with 'believers' in Allah not doing their 'contact prayers' properly or a 'corrupted salat'.
The point is that the correct salat has been restored by an imam per Allah?s system described in 2173.
NO the point is that you claimed that 1959 meant they 'lost' the prayer and the new generation 'must have gotten it from an imam' is the point.1958 These are some of the prophets whom GOD blessed. They were chosen from among the descendants of Adam, and the descendants of those whom we carried with Noah, and the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom we guided and selected. When the revelations of the Most Gracious are recited to them, they fall prostrate, weeping.
1959 After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.
It means they stopped beleiving, they stopped woshipping Allah, they stopped fearing Allah, they didnt bother, they turned away onto other things as man does time and time again and worships something else, be it money, cars, people but not Allah. 'Pursued their lusts', nothing to do with 'details of salat'.
You need to do sincere reading as opposed to ?done a bit of reading now? to get the message. Prophet Muhammad was not with the group that was left behind. He was at war. Therefore, they weren?t getting any new revelation. They were studying the Quran (part or whole) they had. According to your concept, you don?t pass anything other than the Quran. Therefore, this group is not needed. Are you saying this is a false verse or Allah did not know what He was doing?
The bit of reading I did was your older posts, I got a much clearer picture.
What verse does it say Prophet Muhammed was of the group that went to war?
9122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.More evidence of passing information to others.
why would it say the group left behind could study religion and pass on the knowledge to the group that returned if Prophet Muhammed was with the group at war? did prophet Muhammed not inform those he was at war with of the things the others needed to study? Did prophet Muhammed need to be informed what they had studied of religion when he returned? Who was the one that got the message here, the prophet or the group that studied and told Muhammed what was what when he got back? Your statement has no ground and is illogical.No, this is the salat that we already knew with innovation removed. It converges as opposed to your salat approach that diverges and divides people.
How do you KNOW it is the same salat with innovation removed? because Khalifa TELLS you it is? I have pointed out some bits that are not from Quran in a previous post. is this where you got it from that all previous prophets rectied Al Fatihah? How do you know what MY salat is anyway, can you read my mind?Yes, he reestablished the correct salat (unity as opposed to divide)
so khalifa brought unity to salat, unity with each other, other humans, not unity with Allah as khalifa still uses hadith in his salat as he does with 'what nullifies ablution'. You follow another messenger and a corrupt Quran.This verse is about how salat comes to us i.e. means (not via book). They were Prophet as well as messenger. Therefore, your question is irrelevant.
2172 And we granted him Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them both righteous.
2173 We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.These verses are nothing to do with 'how salat comes to us', they are about Abraham and his son and grandson being prophets, so my question is very relevant, do you consider Khalifa to be a prophet as well as a messenger?
To make it easy for you to answer these questions, after you have made a more careful study of the verses IN CONTEXT, I have used Khalifa translation, just for you ;D
7517 It is we who will collect it into Quran.
7518 Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran -
Peace,
Remember I said i "withdraw the quiz" then gave you my answer.
So you are out of line again.
guest Please read the following verses that is taken from the FULLY DETAILED BOOK and tell me what you learned from it ? Quiz
guest I will be nice and withdraw the quiz and save you the embarrassment. I will give you the answer
Moses got a BOOK from Allah. Yet we find him following another source for knowledge and guidance. Are you saying Moses went astray?
If thats how you see what this says then thats fine, there is no point in going any further as you cannot see you asked ME what I thought, then you told ME what I thought then you had the cheek to ask if I am saying Moses went astray! -\ totally illogical, all your arguments are illogical to any logical person., obviously they seem logical to you only because you are not a logical person.
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guest Please read the following verses that is taken from the FULLY DETAILED BOOK and tell me what you learned from it ? Quiz
guest I will be nice and withdraw the quiz and save you the embarrassment. I will give you the answer
Moses got a BOOK from Allah. Yet we find him following another source for knowledge and guidance. Are you saying Moses went astray?
If thats how you see what this says then thats fine, there is no point in going any further as you cannot see you asked ME what I thought, then you told ME what I thought then you had the cheek to ask if I am saying Moses went astray! -\ totally illogical, all your arguments are illogical to any logical person., obviously they seem logical to you only because you are not a logical person.
Peace,
Do you not realize that this is NOT an isolated post? It is continuation of previous posts. And in the previous post you have said something like this Quran is complete, therefore, no other guidance is acceptable from outside source (not an exact quote).
If you carry this thoughts over then you will see the logic
I gave you a quiz.
I withdraw the quiz.
Then, I gave you the answer which clearly showed Prophet Moses using outside source as knowledge and guidance.
Then, I asked you a different question ?Are you saying Moses went astray?? in relation to your claim that nothing can be accepted from outside source. If you hold fast to your concept then according to YOU Prophet Moses went astray.
Is this clear to you now?
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Peace,
Do you not realize that this is NOT an isolated post? It is continuation of previous posts. And in the previous post you have said something like this Quran is complete, therefore, no other guidance is acceptable from outside source (not an exact quote).
If you carry this thoughts over then you will see the logic
I gave you a quiz.
I withdraw the quiz.
Then, I gave you the answer which clearly showed Prophet Moses using outside source as knowledge and guidance.
Then, I asked you a different question ?Are you saying Moses went astray?? in relation to your claim that nothing can be accepted from outside source. If you hold fast to your concept then according to YOU Prophet Moses went astray.
Is this clear to you now?
I have already answered this. Why do I feel we are going round in circles?
using outside sources as knowledge and guidence is normal, we go to school, college, learn from life etc etc the difference is we dont claim it as knowledge of religion which you are claiming this verse means Moses was seeking knowledge of religion when that is not what the verses say. You see things that arent there according to your odd perceptions and what fits with your views. You will find any verse and claim its means something it so obviously doesnt to any sane person because your belief is flawed. I have said that no other source is needed for our religion as we have The source in Quran FROM THE SOURCE, its all in there, which you have agreed its complete and fully detailed BUT, and its the BUT with you thats is the problem. Nothing can be complete and fully detailed BUT... it either is or its not. For me Quran IS complete and fully detailed BUT for you its complete and fully detailed BUT doesnt have details of salat, therefore in any sane persons logic it is NOT complete and fully detailed. Now please try to see this IS logical as I will not repeat this again. peace -
Ayisha How do you KNOW it is the same salat with innovation removed?
Because it is consistent with the Quran after the removal of innovation, it does not divide muslim, it does not allow arbitrary number of salat (2,3,?.) per day, and concrete structures.
Ayisha because Khalifa TELLS you it is?
No, because it is consistent w/Quran and it is in harmony with my innermost thought (common sense). No corrupted dictionary is needed to define my salat.
Ayisha I have pointed out some bits that are not from Quran in a previous post. is this where you got it from that all previous prophets rectied Al Fatihah?
No, I haven?t read the post you are referring to. My logic is Prophet Abraham establish the detailed of salat and when it is lost Allah raises imam to guide us back to correct salat. Our salat is consistent with Prophet Muhammad?s salat and his salat is consistent with Prophet Abraham?s salat, which taught by Allah. The logic says, if we are reciting chapter 1 then Prophet Abraham must have recited the same content.
Ayisha How do you know what MY salat is anyway, can you read my mind?
I don?t know your salat, I don?t care about how you observe your salt, what matters is how I do my salat. I make reference to salat 2,3? that is being talked about at free-minds forum.
I never claimed that I can read anyone?s mind nor did I imply any such thing.
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I have already answered this. Why do I feel we are going round in circles?
using outside sources as knowledge and guidence is normal, we go to school, college, learn from life etc etc the difference is we dont claim it as knowledge of religion which you are claiming this verse means Moses was seeking knowledge of religion when that is not what the verses say. You see things that arent there according to your odd perceptions and what fits with your views. You will find any verse and claim its means something it so obviously doesnt to any sane person because your belief is flawed. I have said that no other source is needed for our religion as we have The source in Quran FROM THE SOURCE, its all in there, which you have agreed its complete and fully detailed BUT, and its the BUT with you thats is the problem. Nothing can be complete and fully detailed BUT... it either is or its not. For me Quran IS complete and fully detailed BUT for you its complete and fully detailed BUT doesnt have details of salat, therefore in any sane persons logic it is NOT complete and fully detailed. Now please try to see this IS logical as I will not repeat this again. peaceThe only point to be made here is this
The Quran clearly says ? Allah teaches salat to imam. If the details of salat were in the Book then Allah would not have said He taught the same to imam. It does not make sense. Just like details of what raven showed to Adam?s son is not in the Quran. But we have it. You are implying contradiction in the Quran. And that is FLAWED logic.
My conclusion is You are taking part of Quran and calling it complete. You are neglecting verses that goes against you personal desire.
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The only point to be made here is this
The Quran clearly says ? Allah teaches salat to imam. If the details of salat were in the Book then Allah would not have said He taught the same to imam. It does not make sense. Just like details of what raven showed to Adam?s son is not in the Quran. But we have it. You are implying contradiction in the Quran. And that is FLAWED logic.
My conclusion is You are taking part of Quran and calling it complete. You are neglecting verses that goes against you personal desire.
My conclusion is you are taking parts of Quran completely out of context, twisting it to be in harmony with your innermost thoughts and neglecting verses that goes against your personal desire. I am not implying any contradiction in Quran, you are, as Quran says its complete and fully detailed but to your innermost harmony is is lacking. You even say it is complete and fully detailed BUT some details are not in it when there are soooooooo MANY verses concerning salat..... THAT my friend is flawed logic. You think Allah wrote about salat so much, the importance of it, what to do in it etc but the details He left for man to corrupt again? Yes that IS flawed logic.
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Protip guest is a sockpuppet of TheReformer
The dynamics of this forum are interesting. Aside from actually studying the book and making progress, there is also a group of members who keep asking "Why are Quranists in turmoil" then proceed to create the turmoil by diverting the attention of the majority towards their baseless ahadeeth.
What I don't understand is that if we are well aware that ahadeeth don't serve to guide one's religion then why is so much brain-time on this forum dedicated purely to the silly battle of "Islam" vs "islam" when we could make far more progress just looking at the book and letting it speak for itself?
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Thanks AK and I know the verse, but passing wind is not in it, sleeping is not in it and sexual contact is and contact or touching a woman is. I agree he has put sexual contact in a separate bit and put 443 as reference but it is in this verse too and I think there is also another contact with women not sexual contact in this verse.
according to this and traditional views
What Nullifies AblutionDigestive excretions through the intestines, including gas, solids, or urine nullify ablution. Sleeping also nullifies ablution, since one becomes unaware. Thus one may observe a number of Contact Prayers with one ablution, provided he or she does not go to the bathroom, pass gas, or fall asleep.
If I do ablution in the morning as long as I dont fall asleep (not in Quran), pass wind (not in Quran) go to the toilet or have sex (RK missed that one in what nullifies ablution) I am still clean to pray, even if I have been down to the shops in bare feet, trod in donkey pooh and got splashed by a horse peeing, I am still clean?
The point of the verse has been ignored. The point is to be clean, to purify yourself
Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.The start of the verse says 'when you STAND UP for prayer' not when you wake up. Everytime you stand to pray you wash. It says if you are in a state of ceremonial impurity, ie sexual impurity, then you 'purify' yourself differently, ie, entire body. Then it says BUT IF you are ill, on a journey, have come from the toilet or touched or had contact with a woman AND YOU CANT FIND WATER then clean earth. Considering the toilets were holes in the ground somewhere away from the home at that stage and the call to prayer was being called you CAN use clean earth as a ceremonial ritual of cleaning if you cant find water (there were no sinks and taps then). Now as this states had contact with or touched a woman it does not mean sexual contact in the 'BUT IF' part, it means any contact, touching even, shaking hands because the sexual contact has been taken care of in the first part of the verse which requires a more thorough 'purification' than washing hands face arms and feet with water or clean earth.
But what I am getting at is, every time you stand to pray you do ablution, there should be NO EXCUSE or anything that says 'what nullifies ablution', it is not THERE. It is precise, WHEN you stand up for prayer, not IF, WHEN, you wash. The BUT IF part is not things that nullify ablution but times when you cannot find water, which should be no problem nowdays anyway. Every prayer = new ablution. When you stand before your God you should be clean.
No that's true, I don't disagree at all that clean earth may substitute water when it is not available. At face value I'm sure you understand that without verifying for myself I cannot agree with you automatically that sleeping & passing wind for nullifying the salat are not in the Qu'ran.
I'm not saying they are, but I don't know for myself whether they aren't either. As of right now, unless you can tell me with absolute certainty that you absolutely beyond doubt do not remember seeing this I do not know what to say.
I just want to stress to make it absolutely clear that I am not trying to insult you or deride you, and I realize when you say (not in the Qu'ran) it may imply that you have read the whole Qu'ran and not seen this. As of right now I don't know if this is clarifying 100% that you have read and remember the entire Qu'ran so I hope you understand, I do not say this to offend you.
Dr. Khalifa I'm assuming has read the entire Qu'ran (after all he would have to if he translated it) and perhaps he came across a verse which stated that these two acts nullify the ablution, but until I read for myself I cannot say with certainty that it is or isn't in the Qu'ran. I do agree very very very much so that it is dubious that he has not provided references for the two disputed acts which nullify ablution. However, based on the fact that he has read the entire Qu'ran, and his strong anti hadith stand, I think that perhaps it is in the Qu'ran and that it is reasonable perhaps to conclude that he may have simply forgotten to include the reference. With regards to verse 1736 I am happy that you are attesting to the fact that this is apparently not in the Qu'ran (I use the word apparently because I have not read the entire Qu'ran and therefore cannot say myself with certainty that it is or isn't in it). I am aware of 1736 and as such do not take a strong stand against you or anyone else who will not accept this which they have not verified. I am simply not sure what to say as I have not read the entire Qu'ran.
I hope someone who is reading this, who has read the entire Qu'ran can provide references if it is in the Qu'ran or can attest to the fact that they have read and remember the entire Qu'ran and it is nowhere in the Qu'ran.
By the way, please do not take this the wrong way and please do not scoff at this recommendation, but I have come across people who are most virulent and cruel in their ways of discourse, and yet I have not resorted to names to refer to their system of reasoning. I have erred sure and have been sarcastic and used their own terminology in quotes as a means of sarcasm but I try to most of the time (and may God forgive me if the following statement is not 100% accurate) not to resort to names. One two occasions I used profanity/name calling towards two people who's cowardice and lies disgusted me a great deal, and I apologize to God for this and one of the things I ask him every night to help me with is restraint and speaking righteously and in a just manner.
I just don't think it is good and wise to to say things like "lolgic" I am sorry if this is unwelcome, but I just don't think its right, and this poisons the discourse in my opinion, regardless of one's frustrations I think we should not resort to this, against anyone. If they do not want to understand they will not understand as God has told us, and I think we should control our frustrations. 1857
I hope the following does not paint a caricature of me as some angry mullah but personally I think some of these emoticons as well are too much. I think we should restrain ourselves from exhibiting too much of an emotional reaction to what people say like   rotfl brickwall confused whatever yeah wow hail giveup
as for rotfl I don't think it is bad when expressed in a benevolent way but to react to what someone has to say with that I think does not do any justice and is not wise.
It is of course (and I hope) not our intent to antagonize others but the above does not help (in my opinion) in preventing this. Just my opinion. We are all created weak, and as such may resort to doing these things, and others may take offense or be hurt and discouraged from responding in a thoughtful and fruitful manner to what we have to say. Sometimes we forget things, and overlook things, and if we do not humble ourselves in discourse others may not feel the urge to correct us and may purposely hide our own mistakes out of their own bitter feelings.
Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
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....I am not implying any contradiction in Quran, you are, as Quran says its complete and fully detailed but to your innermost harmony is is lacking. You even say it is complete and fully detailed BUT some details are not in it when there are soooooooo MANY verses concerning salat..... THAT my friend is flawed logic. You think Allah wrote about salat so much, the importance of it, what to do in it etc but the details He left for man to corrupt again? Yes that IS flawed logic.
Peace Ayisha,
Here is another contradiction that arises from your concept.
551 ? The Most Gracious
552 ? Teacher of the Quran.
Teacher of the Quran = External source for learning Quran
If the Quran is FULLY DETAILED like you suggest then why do we need this external source to learn Quran.
This is what you are implying unknowingly or intentionally that there is a contradiction in the Quran. This is true if we apply your understanding of FULLY DETAILED i.e. teacher becomes irrelevant with respect to the fully detailed Book. Thus you are suggesting Allah made an error!!
This contradiction and other nonsense goes away if you allow guidance and knowledge coming from good outside source, imams or otherwise, whom Allah teaches in accordance with 552. Allah doesn?t come down Himself to teach us. He teaches us via a media (Raven, imam, ?). You are neglecting this part of FULLY DETAILED Book and thus creating CONFUSION for yourself and other like minded people.
Bottom-line Quran is FULLY DETAILED; I do NOT need another book for salvation. Salat comes to us via imams i.e. actions observe by us and not via a book. And this is consistent with Quran. NO CONTRADICTION!!!!!
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God is not an "external source", there is no way of being external relative to God.
When people refer to "external sources" in the manner that the "quran is fully detailed" it means that these external sources attempt to change the detail of the quran and this is where contradiction arises. For example ahadeeth do this by adding more details onto the details prescribed in the quran. Thus they are a "bid'ah" and perhaps the perpetrators of such a "bid'ah" should be shot just as the Sunnis say (not that I condone such a thing).
Salat comes to us via imams i.e. actions observe by us and not via a book.
Yes, following your fathers explains why the majority of "Muslims" have gone from being truly guided to worshipping and orbiting a stone cube every year.
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Peace Ayisha,
Here is another contradiction that arises from your concept.
551 ? The Most Gracious
552 ? Teacher of the Quran.
Teacher of the Quran = External source for learning QuranIf the Quran is FULLY DETAILED like you suggest then why do we need this external source to learn Quran.
This is what you are implying unknowingly or intentionally that there is a contradiction in the Quran. This is true if we apply your understanding of FULLY DETAILED i.e. teacher becomes irrelevant with respect to the fully detailed Book. Thus you are suggesting Allah made an error!!
This contradiction and other nonsense goes away if you allow guidance and knowledge coming from good outside source, imams or otherwise, whom Allah teaches in accordance with 552. Allah doesn?t come down Himself to teach us. He teaches us via a media (Raven, imam, ?). You are neglecting this part of FULLY DETAILED Book and thus creating CONFUSION for yourself and other like minded people.
Bottom-line Quran is FULLY DETAILED; I do NOT need another book for salvation. Salat comes to us via imams i.e. actions observe by us and not via a book. And this is consistent with Quran. NO CONTRADICTION!!!!!Peace,
are you serious? God says that His Quran is fully detailed.
Messenger Muhammad was only to deliver The Quran and he was not allowed to teach any othjer teachings, otherwise he would have been punished by the very Creator Who chose him to deliver it.
Peace.