Shahr -- Does It Have Anything To Do With "MOON"?
-
Peace all,
For those who are still holding the view that the true meaning of "Shahr" has anything to do with "MOON" (lunar month/cycle, calendar month, new-moon, full-moon etc) -- please consider these questions below and share your understanding with us.
The intention of this thread is to find out whether there is a clear evidence/proof/explanation behind the interpretation of Sh-h-r in The Reading/Al-Qur'aan as something related to (lunar) moon.
From Lane's lexicon, shaharahu
he made it apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious, notable, commonly known, public
he made it apparent, as bad, evil, abominable, foul, or unseemly
he exposed it as such; or rendered it notorious in a bad sense, or infamous.• more in here and here
• Alternatively, you can still easily trace similar meaning in its current use in the Arabic language, even where it has been adapted in another language (for example, in Malay/Bahasa, someone who is famous, reputable or whose name is well-known, is said as "ter-masyhur", obviously adapted from the Arabic word ma$huwr).
This is verse with translated as "The Months/Full Moons" and translated as "Month/Full Moon" (the numberings are only for reference in this discussion)
1 Indeed count/number of "The Months/Full Moons" near Allah o
2 Twelve "Month(s)/Full Moon(s)" in book of Allah o
3 Day He created The Skies and The Earth o
4 From them four sacred/restricted o
5 Such is The Deen/System The Upright o
6 Then/so do not wrong therein yourselves o
And fight The Mu$rikiyn altogether as they fight you altogether.
And know that Allah is with The Muttaqiyn.Questions
Related to #1. What is the significance of "a count/number of The Months/Full Moons" that makes it deserving a position near Allah ? What are the true purpose of these "Months/Full Moons"?
Related to #2. Can we find the names/nature/characters/explanation of these "Months/Full Moons" in the "book of Allah"?
• For "kitaabi Allah" check other occurrences
Related to #4 and #5. If the importance of these four "Sacred Months/Full Moons" (along with the other eight 'un-Sacred' ones) is such that they make for The Upright System/Deen, they must have been clearly explained somewhere in the Book of Allah.
• In what verses have they been explained?
Related to #6 and also verse . Suppose we are not allowed to "war/fight/kill" in any the four "Sacred Months/Full Moons", except for the purpose of defense. Question
• Are we allowed to "war/fight/kill" for other than defense purpose (i.e., aggress) in the other eight 'un-Sacred' "Months/Full Moons"?
Suppose the "Sacred Month/Full Moon" of "Ramadan" (as a name/proper noun or as common noun) is for "fasting" (i.e. abstaining from eating, drinking and sex). What role does "fasting for a month or a number of days" play in the establishment of a peaceful society? And just how effective is fasting in fulfilling that role?
(if you think it is rhetorical, just pass it)
Related to verse
$ahru ramaDaAna that which was revealed therein , The Reading , a guidance for The Mankind/People and clear-evidences from The Guidance , and The Criterion . Then whoever witnessed from you , Al-$ahr , then let he restrain/abstain it . And whoever is ill or on a journey , then a count from events/days deferred/latter . Desiring is Allah by you , The Ease , and not desiring by you The Hardship . And may you complete The Count , and may you magnify Allah upon what He guided you , and may you become generous/thankful .
Questions
There is no preposition "in" (fi) before "it" in "falyaSumhu" (compare this to "fighting in it" in verse ). What is "it" that he is being let to "Sawm"? In simple English, what is "it" that he is to "abstain/restrain"?
Does Sawm (or Siyaam) intrinsically or automatically mean "abstaining oneself from eating, drinking and sexual intercourse"?
• (If that's the case, then we can consider Sawm/Siyaam as an intransitive verb, such as "to sleep"
but why then the expression is "falyaSumhu"? Why not "falyaSum fi hi"?• Or, does Sawm/Siyaam automatically mean "abstaining oneself from eating, drinking and sexual intercourse for a specific interval each day for a given period" (so that the "given period" becomes the object noun -- as in spending a month)?
(If so, then we can accept "falyaSumhu" as meaning "let him fast it"-- but is that the truth?)
Again, a rhetorical question. Suppose you have chosen a way of life whose purpose is to lead a peaceful life. Which act serves better in the establishment of such peaceful life
• "Fasting for a month/number of days from (lawful) eating, (lawful) drinking and (lawful) sexual intercourse" in the so-called "Sacred Month of Ramadan" (or, after the witnessing of the "scorching-hot full-moon", once every twelve months,
OR
• "Abstaining/Restraining/Stopping" something "apparent/infamous/notorious/commonly-known" which is "intensely/scorching hot" and "Un-lawful (Sacred/Restricted)", anytime, anywhere one witnessed it happening ?
Please present any argument clearly and honestly without resorting to foul-mouthing (incl. but not limited to name-calling, abusing, cursing/accusing of kufr/nifaq/shirk etc), 'malicious' acts (such as slandering or trying to deceive/distract/conceal etc), or quarreling.
If you have other question/curiosity/suspicion regarding this matter, please also share with us.
Thanks for your honest feedbacks.
Peace
-
I would look at 9/36 again especially the words
3idda - usually translated as count but whose root can imply being prepared ( see 8/60)
ithna - could be two
ashara - could be ten but ma3shar implies a mixed community (see 6/130)
any thoughts?
-
I would look at 9/36 again especially the words
3idda - usually translated as count but whose root can imply being prepared ( see 8/60)
ithna - could be two
ashara - could be ten but ma3shar implies a mixed community (see 6/130)
any thoughts?
Peace abdalquran,
Yes, i'm also curious about some of the numberings used in AQ, mostly when it comes to Shahr. I intend to create another thread specifically to address all issues related to the "true" Shahr, so those of us who have already accepted that Shahr does not mean/related to lunar moon at all, can focus & cooperate on finding the true meaning together (actually the Shahr itself is quite simple, but the implications are not so--seems as though there have been some efforts to alter things up to fit the "new" meaning, i.e. month).
Re 3idda i have not checked that, do you find it consistent throughout AQ? I'll also check it myself, thanks.
-
I believe 3idda consistently means prepared. The word 'ahsa' means count (like in 72/2.
-
Peace siki,
Hi, san
Did you go through the thread, "Hot ramadhan answer" i mean the whole 147 pages , before starting this thread?
Did you? Because if you have done that, you should've noticed my recent reply, which at least would show you that i understood what Ayman presented.
If you have anything to add/respond to the questions above, please do share.
-
Peace siki,
Did you? Because if you have done that, you should've noticed my recent reply, which at least would show you that i understood what Ayman presented.
If you have anything to add/respond to the questions above, please do share.
san salam
Yes I did , infact I was invloved in it to a certain degree, at a certain stage. Why did I ask you to do so? because it tackles most of your questions in detail.
So I suggest that instead, you should re study the "subject thread" and point out the problem areas for re evalutaion, and we shall gladly do so.
peace
-
san salam
Yes I did , infact I was invloved in it to a certain degree, at a certain stage. Why did I ask you to do so? because it tackles most of your questions in detail.
So I suggest that instead, you should re study the "subject thread" and point out the problem areas for re evalutaion, and we shall gladly do so.
peace
Peace siki, yes i know you are involved in that thread. So if you have the answer to any of the above questions, please do so here, or simply quote or copy and paste wherever the answer or "tackles" to most of these questions has been presented there. If you have fully understood the matter, that should be a very trivial thing to do, isn't it?
-
Salaam. Will you please let me take one question at a time.
(1)
I take "AAiddat" to mean COUNT, which is always valid no matter whether the number is 12 fullmoons or 13. The COUNT is signifcant "3inda Allah" because it allows His order of hunting prohibition to be obeyed by keeping the four forbidden fullmoons only in summer, the time when animals breed and care for their babies.If you take "AAiddat" to mean NUMBER, that number is always constant although it is against God's decision as, in God's truth, it is sometimes 12 and sometimes 13. Then the forbidden fullmoons can appear even in winter and the concept of prohibition simply collapses.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Salaam. Will you please let me take one question at a time.
(1)
I take "AAiddat" to mean COUNT, which is always valid no matter whether the number is 12 fullmoons or 13. The COUNT is signifcant "3inda Allah" because it allows His order of hunting prohibition to be obeyed by keeping the four forbidden fullmoons only in summer, the time when animals breed and care for their babies.If you take "AAiddat" to mean NUMBER, that number is always constant although it is against God's decision as, in God's truth, it is sometimes 12 and sometimes 13. Then the forbidden fullmoons can appear even in winter and the concept of prohibition simply collapses.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ayPeace Hasan,
Sure, no problem, as you can see from the questions above, the number/count does not matter. So, CMIIW, is this your response to the importance of these "full-moons" the time when animals breed and care for their babies. ?
If so, could you please specify what kind of animals? Because i want to check/verify with others who are more knowledgeable on this (i.e. re the relationship between summer solstice and breeding season) and whether they are applicable throughout the earth or not (for example, i'm living in the tropics where, as you may have known, the temperature is generally hot/warm throughout the year).
And besides, a question that occurs in that case is why fasting? why not a more direct/obvious command to not hunt game/wild animals exceedingly (famani I3tadaa) / while you are forbidden/restriced (wa antum hurumun). Verse seems to support this view.
Of course there is still the linguistic problem with "falyaSumhu" (Al-$ahr).
-
Singular occurence (1)2185(2)2185(3)2194(4)2194(5)2217(6)502(7)597(936(9)3412(10)3412(11)4615(12)9703=12
Peace Mazhar,
It fits! Twelve! Now would you please elaborate on your criteria to define "singular occurrence"? And how do these "Months" are explained in the verses you referred above?
Peace
P.S. And for easy reference, all the verses with occurrence of ($-h-r)
2185
2194
2197
2217
2226
2234
492
52
597
92
95
936
3412
4615
584
654
973 -
Peace Hasan,
Sure, no problem, as you can see from the questions above, the number/count does not matter. So, CMIIW, is this your response to the importance of these "full-moons" the time when animals breed and care for their babies. ?
If so, could you please specify what kind of animals? Because i want to check/verify with others who are more knowledgeable on this (i.e. re the relationship between summer solstice and breeding season) and whether they are applicable throughout the earth or not (for example, i'm living in the tropics where, as you may have known, the temperature is generally hot/warm throughout the year).
And besides, a question that occurs in that case is why fasting? why not a more direct/obvious command to not hunt game/wild animals exceedingly (famani I3tadaa) / while you are forbidden/restriced (wa antum hurumun). Verse seems to support this view.
Of course there is still the linguistic problem with "falyaSumhu" (Al-$ahr).
Dear San.
I mean the animals which are hunted, in general terms. Their breeding times are the hot fullmoons, including shahru ramadan. However, those times may differ from region to region according to the cilimate and the kinds of animals living there.
In announcing the prohibition, God addresses YOU itha halaltum faistadoo (52), wa antum hurum (595). So the restriction is related to the region where YOU are. If you happen to be in the northern hemisphere it is after June 21, but if you happen to be in the south it is after December 21.
As far as I know, the word hurum has got nothing to with sacredness; it simply means forbidden. So al-ashhuru'l-hurum (95) are the fulmoons of prohibition after June 21 in the north and after December 21 in the south.
The reason for fasting is the fact that it is exercise to help you acquire self-discipline. You know the HU in falyaSumhu refers to the scorching fullmoon.The morning of the night when it is witnessed is the very first day of fasting. And it is the time when you need self-discipline most, after the freedom of hunting you have enjoyed for a long long part of the year.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
- "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. Aymen
is a Possessive Phrase. The Possessive Noun is apparently in accusative case and not in genitive case, vividly indicating it is the Name for which reason it cannot be given Kasra, while the possessed noun ,in nominative case, is the Subject of the Nominal sentence. There is no such word "when" in the Arabic text. Instead there is prepositional phrase with suffixed masculine, singular, third person pronoun referring back to meaning "within which-or during which-or during the currency of which".
-
Dear San.
I mean the animals which are hunted, in general terms. They breed during hot fullmoons, includin shahru ramadan. However, they may differ from region to region according to the cilimate and the kinds of animals living there.
In announcing the prohibition, God addresses YOU itha halaltum faistadoo (52), wa antum hurum (595). So the restriction is related to the region where YOU are. If you happen to be in the northern hemisphere it is after June 21, but if you happen to be in the south it is after December 21.
As far as I know, the word hurum has got nothing to with sacredness; it simply means forbidden. So al-ashhuru'l-hurum (95) are the fulmoons of prohibition after June 21 in the north and after December 21 in the south.
Peace Hasan,
As i have said before, in the tropics here, the temperature in the tropics stay mostly the same throughout the year. Please check this post of mine in that thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg260607#msg260607 . In that case, "the time when animals breed and care for their babies" argument may be baseless. Why would i follow the summer solstice if it doesn't have any effect on the local wildlife whatsoever (even if only theoretically, since most people here are relying on livestocks anyway). Ayman's responses to Noon's points about differences in wildlife breeding seasons have not sufficiently addressed the concern.
Don't you agree that if "the time when animals breed and care for their babies" doesn't match the "hot full-moon" and the four following months (in the tropics region or anywhere else on earth), that argument would fail? No, you can't just say, "that only happens in the tropical region". No, that's not how the Deen works.
note To keep something "sacred", is to "forbid" anyone from "harming" it. Our lives are sacred--as long we are not harming others, people are forbidden from harming our lives.
You know the HU in "falyaSumhu" refers to the scorching fullmoon.The morning of the night when it is witnessed is the very first day of fasting. And it is the time when you need self-discipline most, after freedom of hunting for so long a time.
No, "falyaSumhu" refers to "Al-Shahr". The "full-moon" part is the one being questioned here, in case you haven't noticed.
I don't know about where you live, but here, people are relying mostly on farm products and livestocks for food (not games). And in the case of excessive/aggressive hunters, i think they must be dealt with directly by forbidding such excessive/aggressive practices (in accordance with 594-95 and relevant verses), as "fasting" will definitely not stop them from hunting.
The reason for fasting is the fact that it is exercise to help you acquire self-discipline.
Please also note that "fasting as an exercise to help acquire self-discipline" may not be "the fact", but instead, a formed opinion.
Problems with fasting as character-building training program is, AQ had already given much more specific actions to restrain from. For example
• restraining from foul-mouthing, malicious acts/intentions, and quarrelling, especially in constructive discussions, where doing such things will only hinder people from enlightenment.
• Fasting for two consecutive months is very questionable as a solution for accidental killing.
a better solution would be freeing a life or sustaining people's lives by feeding/caretaking, or at the very least, restraining/stopping others from harming others' lives (twice consecutively is the minimum requirement as per AQ )
• Fasting for "three days" is also very qustionable as a solution for those who repeatedly breaks oaths
a better solution would be fulfilment of past oaths, and at the very least, stopping himself from making oaths that he cannot fulfil
• Of course if over-eating is the problem, then fasting will be a fitting treatment for that person. Plus exercises i may suggest.
• Those with sex-addiction should also try fasting as well.
Also, when the self-discipline is already "acquired, what happens then? What actions are to be expected from him when he faces something "apparent/infamous/commonly-known" (shahr) which is "intensely/scorching hot" (ramaDan) and "Un-lawful (Sacred/restricted/forbidden)"?
To put it pragmatically, let me give an apparent/infamous/commonly-known example there is an on-going "intensely-hot" incident in Palestine. In fact, there are lots of similarly unlawful incidents happening around the world (at least from what i can gather from news).
Do muslims in the world "fast" each year? How many of them fast? How many of them spend time to focus on such problem? They have fasted for the month, they feel that they have already fulfilled their religion's tenet. And life goes on. But what if fasting is not the true tenet? What if the true tenet of the peaceful system is to stop such incident from happening/continuing, wherever and whenever one sees the incident? Wouldn't such tenet be worthy of the attention that traditional "fasting" receives, if not more?
This is anecdotal, but let me ask which one do most people think about more when they are fasting
the blood-shedding incidents need stopping, or
their breakfast menu?
(sorry but this is true with most people i know--some people that do think about the former are the people who think about it the rest of the year, so i guess they must be doing something other than the fasting itself)Do you see the implications now, for falsely spreading a tenet in place of a much more logical system of "enforcing others to not harm people's lives"?
Peace
-
please have a look at our discussion regarding soum http//www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119156082
- What is SAUM?
2183
(Creating an ideal society requires discipline and selfrestraint among the individuals.) O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Abstinence (from food, drink and sex during the daytime) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you so that you get empowered against evil.
2185
The month of Ramadhan has been chosen for this collective training since this is the month in which the Qur?an was revealed, a Guidance for mankind, clearly explaining the ?why? of every Rule. And it is the Criterion of right and wrong. Hence, whoever witnesses this month should participate in the program of Abstinence.
"Whoever witnesses this month should participate in the program of abstinence"
How do we witness a month? Humans neither witness a month nor can they refrain or restrain it. We can witness an accident or event or a physical change that we are capable of stopping. Here we are referred to a situation or condition, which we must stop.
Allama Parwez lughat ul Quran p 389
Shahr = Taj ne likha hai ke is ke maine hai kisi buri baat ka numaya aur mashoor ho jana = Shahar means any event or saying that becomes well
known or situation that involves bloodshed.Allama Parwez Lughaat ul Quran p 187
Ramadhan = Rait wagharia ka dhoup se tapp jana, al ramz,sakht garmi o tapash = Extreme heat
Allama Parwez Lughat ul Quran p 5351 first line
Mareez = Tawazan aur etadaal ka is tarah bigar jana ke kisi qoat main izhlaal,zaif yah kisi kami waqea ho jae = to cause reduction in strength
Arz mareezan = aisi zameen jis main taqat kam ho = land which does not have enough strength
If the root meaning and the context of each word is taken into account, excluding all previously concieved ideas, then soum would mean
To deal with a situation like Ramadhan Quran is presented. It is Guidance for humans and criterion of right and wrong.
Hence, whoever witnesses this situation or condition; he should refrain from contributing to it and restrain others as well.
Hence, before committing to the cause of Siam, a Momin must overcome all his shortcomings and weaknesses. If he lacks knowledge, gain it. If he has just begun his journey of acquiring knowledge and ideology, he should complete it before joining the program for the reformation of the society.
God wills ease through you, not any hardships. And that you attain the capabilities and establish God?s supremacy according to His decrees and be grateful.
Question no 2 & 3
What is SAUM according to your current understanding? What do you understand as Dr Zaman's conclusions about SAUM?
Siam are ?The Days of Acquiring Capabilities?. During this period the Momin prepares for the reformation of the society. And those responsible for the chaos, anarchy, and terror in the society are restrained and punished. Hence, the sick (be it physical impairment or lack of knowledge) and the traveler (whether his journey is physical or ideological or mental) are allowed to obtain those capabilities on other days. If he lacks knowledge, gain it. If he just begins his journey of acquiring knowledge and ideology, he should complete it before joining the program for the reformation of the society. But those who have the power to Soum, i.e. are prepared for Siam physically and ideologically, they should start Siam by taking care of the needy. Siam is made mandatory on those who were not fulfilling their duties, i.e. sharing their wealth with the needy. Taam does not just mean feeding the hungry. This Arabic term includes all the necessities such as food, clothes,housing, education, health, honor, security, and justice. Siam is the term used for employing God?s decrees or commandments to overcome and resolve all the conflicts facing humanity. Those carrying out the mission of Siam reap the rewards as well. (When problems are solved and conflicts resolved, everyone benefits. All citizens enjoy peace and security).
Shahar Ramadhan is a situation or state when society is witnessing some type of evil. This evil could be warfare that might cause bloodshed. Or it could be a minor or major evil creeping in the society. Hence, whoever witnesses this evil; he should refrain from it and restrain others as well. Those in a position of power and authority will restrain others while ordinary folks will refrain. But there are some people who are not yet ready to fight the evil or take any responsibility for the reformation of the society. These people need to gain knowledge and develop their capabilities first.
Wisdom behind soum clarifies this point even further Soum produces Taqwa .
Question no 4 by Dr Shabbir Do you mean the SAUM prescribed in 2183 is that of silence or restraining our tongue?
GHUALAMA ZAKIA
1919
?...I shall bestow upon you the gift of a son endowed with a spotless character.?
Here Mary is given the good news of a ghulama (not ibn = son or infant ) zakia, a ghulam endowed with spotless character.
Ghulam Ahmed Parwez = ghain-laam-meem = Taj ke nazdeek paidaish se lekar jawaan hone tak bache ko ghulam hi kehte hai = A child from birth to his youth is called ghulam.
Edward william lane Gh-Lam-Miim = excited with lust, stirred up, tumultuous, period from birth to the seventeenth year, youth, young man, boy.
Now we have to find out how old this ghulam is, who is endowed with a spotless character. If he is not born yet, how would his character be described ? If a ghulam is the term used for child aged between birth and the seventeenth year, it means, when Syeda Mariam recieved the message, he was already born.
He is called Ghulama Zakia,
Zay-Kaf-Waw = it increased/augmented, it throve/grew well/flourished/prospered and produced fruit, it was/became pure, purification, goodness/righteousness, lead/enjoy a plentiful/easy/soft/delicate life, put into a good/right state/condition, alms, poor-rate/due (Edward William Lane,Project root list )
This ghulam is zakia, which means he has a spotless character... in order to have a spotless character one must have developed it to a peak level with effort and understanding. Would an infant have developed a spotless character at such young age ? because a child would still be under development.
This Ghulam was already born and cannot be a infant / new born, because he has developed a character. He now need Syeda maryam to educate him because she is an institution of rehmat. thats why she said
?Indeed, I have made a vow of silence(soma ) for the Beneficent (REHMAN).
Seyda Mariam took the responsibility to educate, develop and support Jesus, so he had the ability to fully utilise his capabilities. This soam is for REHMAAN, no manmade rituals, ideologies or traditions may have an impact on his teaching, thats why she is advised to tell people she is in soam for Rehman. i.e. she has taken the responsibility for Seydana Eesa's education. That was her Soum.
1926
?Eat then and drink, and let your eyes be gladdened! And if you see any human being, convey this to him, ?Indeed, I have made a vow of silence for the Beneficent. Hence, I may not speak to any person today.? ?
Question no 5
Do you say Yes or No to SAUM?
I say Yes to Saum as explained above,
I say yes to eating , drinking, and intimate relations with my wife !!!!! -
"Whoever witnesses this month should participate in the program of abstinence"
How do we witness a month? Humans neither witness a month nor can they refrain or restrain it. We can witness an accident or event or a physical change that we are capable of stopping. Here we are referred to a situation or condition, which we must stop.
How do we "witness" 318 La ilaha illa Huwa?
avow to declare assuredly
avower noun -
Peace Mazhar,
Prescription of "Fasting" is NOT the ultimative objective in itself. It is a means for attaining the objective/purpose, and it is defined;
Thank you. Just what we've been waiting for. Let's rephrase one of our questions above
Suppose you have chosen a way of life whose purpose is to lead a life of taqwa. Which act serves better in the attaining of taqwa
• "Fasting for a month/number of days from (lawful) eating, (lawful) drinking and (lawful) sexual intercourse" in the so-called "Sacred Month of Ramadan" (or, after the witnessing of the "scorching-hot full-moon", once every twelve months,
OR
• "Abstaining/Restraining/Stopping" something "apparent/infamous/notorious/commonly-known" which is "intensely/scorching hot" and "Un-lawful (Sacred/Restricted)", anytime, anywhere one witnessed it happening ?
Peace Noon,
How do we "witness" 318 La ilaha illa Huwa?
Very interesting question. From the verse itself perhaps by first becoming one of Uluw 'l-3ilmi and then qaAIman bi 'l-qisTi / standing by the Just(ice)?
Peace Bob,
How do we witness a month? Humans neither witness a month nor can they refrain or restrain it. We can witness an accident or event or a physical change that we are capable of stopping. Here we are referred to a situation or condition, which we must stop.
And thanks for the link.
Peace
-
Very interesting question. From the verse itself perhaps by first becoming one of Uluw 'l-3ilmi and then qaAIman bi 'l-qisTi / standing by the Just(ice)?
Peace san,
2185 ?so who avow (shahida) ? not always physical.
Even the blind (ٰ can shahida ?la ilaha illa huwa? or shahida alshshahra.