Shahr -- Does It Have Anything To Do With "MOON"?

Bob

Just see the Root and read the Aayat where it occurs, may be you understand, provided you wish to understand.

why dont you answer my question(s) ?

san

Peace,

The problem with you seems that you consider Months of Lunar Year as Hijri calendar. Hijri calendar counts "Muslims Years", the years from the base year of Migration from Mecca to Madina.

And the problem with you is that you seem so reluctant to make it clear about what it is that you are following. I'm not asking about years, but "months". The year count doesn't matter. The "months" do. Both names "Dzu'l-Hijjah" and "Ramadhan" are in Hijri calendar. So i asked you, if i was wrong to assume that you are following that calendar (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar), then what lunar calendar are you following? In other words, How do you measure time for your "Hajj" and "Siyyam", if you're arguing that these events happen on an annual/periodic/regular/scheduled basis?

The Months of Hajj and Fasting remain the same as were in years before Migration.

...which you don't want to explain anyway?

A wise knows when to reply "i don't know" to avoid confusion.
A wannabe-wise doesn't want to look less wise by admitting "i don't know"--he prefers to make the inquirer looks confused in a desperate attempt to preserve his image.

I have asked this in the beginning of this thread Please present any argument clearly and honestly. If you can't, why not show us how to be wise by saying "i don't know"?

Here, let me give an "IDK" example I still don't know for sure what the meaning of Shahr in AQ is. However, i know for sure that no one has been able to give a clear, consistent, logical evidence to support the interpretation of Shahr as "MONTH".

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on September 17, 2010, 044237 PM

The problem with you seems that you consider Months of Lunar Year as Hijri calendar. Hijri calendar counts "Muslims Years", the years from the base year of Migration from Mecca to Madina.

And the problem with you is that you seem so reluctant to make it clear about what it is that you are following. I'm not asking about years, but "months". The year count doesn't matter. The "months" do. Both names "Dzu'l-Hijjah" and "Ramadhan" are in Hijri calendar. So i asked you, if i was wrong to assume that you are following that calendar (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar), then what lunar calendar are you following? In other words, How do you measure time for your "Hajj" and "Siyyam", if you're arguing that these events happen on an annual/periodic/regular/scheduled basis?

It seems you do not even wish to understand what is the perception contained in the term called "calendar". Do you think Solar Months/Calendar got changed when 01 AD was introduced from 1 BC?

san

It seems you do not even wish to understand what is the perception contained in the term called "calendar". Do you think Solar Months/Calendar got changed when 01 AD was introduced from 1 BC?

You know very well what i was talking about the months, not the year.

Funny that you ask about the very term "calendar".

http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/calendar
From Old French calendier from Latin calendarium (?account book?), from calendae (?the first day of the month?), from calare (?to announce solemnly, to call out (the sighting of the new moon)?), from Proto-Indo-European *kel-.

http//www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=calendar
c.1200, "system of division of the year;" mid-14c. as "table showing divisions of the year;" from O.Fr. calendier "list, register," from L. calendarium "account book," from calendae/kalendae "calends" the first day of the Roman month -- when debts fell due and accounts were reckoned -- from calare "to announce solemnly, call out," as the priests did in proclaiming the new moon that marked the calends, from PIE base kele- "to call, shout" (see claim). Taken by the early Church for its register list of saints and their feast days. The -ar spelling in English is 17c. to differentiate it from the now obscure calender "cloth-presser" (see calender).

What is your next diversion strategy?

Mazhar

You know very well what i was talking about the months, not the year.

Funny that you ask about the very term "calendar".

http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/calendar
From Old French calendier from Latin calendarium (?account book?), from calendae (?the first day of the month?), from calare (?to announce solemnly, to call out (the sighting of the new moon)?), from Proto-Indo-European *kel-.

http//www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=calendar
c.1200, "system of division of the year;" mid-14c. as "table showing divisions of the year;" from O.Fr. calendier "list, register," from L. calendarium "account book," from calendae/kalendae "calends" the first day of the Roman month -- when debts fell due and accounts were reckoned -- from calare "to announce solemnly, call out," as the priests did in proclaiming the new moon that marked the calends, from PIE base kele- "to call, shout" (see claim). Taken by the early Church for its register list of saints and their feast days. The -ar spelling in English is 17c. to differentiate it from the now obscure calender "cloth-presser" (see calender).

What is your next diversion strategy?

And this exposes not only being funny but also stupid to conclude from couple of lines without going through the article about calendar.

san

And this exposes not only being funny but also stupid to conclude from couple of lines without going through the article about calendar.

And this shows that you are beginning to explicitly try to slander another person in this thread.

san

Aah, this is from your favorite English dictionary, Encarta, the online version though, perhaps similar to the respective entry in your copy of Encarta 2006

cal?en?dar

noun (plural cal?en?dars)
Definition

chart of year a chart showing the days and months of the year, especially a particular year
system of calculating year a system of calculating the days and months of the year and when the year begins and ends
schedule a schedule of events, usually covering a period of a year
list an official list of things to be done or considered

transitive verb (past and past participle cal?en?dared, present participle cal?en?dar?ing, 3rd person present singular cal?en?dars)
Definition

schedule something to enter something in a calendar or diary

http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/calendar.html

If that's the case, then i can understand if you take the word "calendar" as "year", while actually my intention was similar to this

A calendar is a system of organizing days for social, religious, commercial, or administrative purposes. This is done by giving names to periods of time, typically days, weeks, months, and years. And i thought i have repeatedly let you know that i am not talking about years but months (which turned out to be closer to the original 'root' in meaning)

So, Mazhar, to avoid further confusion and to make it easier for all of us, then, let's just use another version of the question

How do you measure your required timing for your "Hajj" and "Siyyam"?

To make sure we all understand your method, don't forget to put an example in the explanation, e.g. the date you last performed your Siyyam or Hajj.

Thank you.

Mazhar

system of calculating year a system of calculating the days and months of the year and when the year begins and ends

The Lunar months before and after the Revelation of Qur'aan are the same, except that the practice of synchronization with the seasons by the insertion of an additional, intercalary month, when required in pre-Qur'aan era was stopped.

Muharram
Safar
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabi' I)
Rabi' al-thani (Rabi' II)
Jumada al-awwal (Jumada I)
Jumada al-thani (Jumada II)
Rajab
Sha'ban
Ramadan
Shawwal
Dhu al-Qi'dah
Dhu al-Hijjah.

san

system of calculating year a system of calculating the days and months of the year and when the year begins and ends

The Lunar months before and after the Revelation of Qur'aan are the same, except that the practice of synchronization with the seasons by the insertion of an additional, intercalary month, when required in pre-Qur'aan era was stopped.

Muharram
Safar
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabi' I)
Rabi' al-thani (Rabi' II)
Jumada al-awwal (Jumada I)
Jumada al-thani (Jumada II)
Rajab
Sha'ban
Ramadan
Shawwal
Dhu al-Qi'dah
Dhu al-Hijjah.

A much more straightforward response. It's getting closer--go on, please.

Bob

system of calculating year a system of calculating the days and months of the year and when the year begins and ends

The Lunar months before and after the Revelation of Qur'aan are the same, except that the practice of synchronization with the seasons by the insertion of an additional, intercalary month, when required in pre-Qur'aan era was stopped.

Muharram
Safar
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabi' I)
Rabi' al-thani (Rabi' II)
Jumada al-awwal (Jumada I)
Jumada al-thani (Jumada II)
Rajab
Sha'ban
Ramadan
Shawwal
Dhu al-Qi'dah
Dhu al-Hijjah.

Is commands related to Hajj and Ramadan dependent on Hijri calendar ?

Mazhar

A much more straightforward response. It's getting closer--go on, please.

Go where? to stupid, meaningless questionss of Bob!!

Bob

Go where? to stupid, meaningless questionss of Bob!!

Why be so evasive? Why don?t you provide a direct response to points / questions raised?

Can we keep fasts, and perform Hajj, without a Calendar or not?

san

Go where? to stupid, meaningless questionss of Bob!!

Please stop slandering and just address his questions properly.

Here are just some reminders of the questions you missed

To make sure we all understand your method, don't forget to put an example in the explanation, e.g. the date you last performed your Siyyam or Hajj.

Mazhar, how do you fit your Hajj concept into the context of verses 91-6?
Especially, where is the relevance today?

or maybe just get straight to this

Related to #2. Can we find the names/nature/characters/explanation of these "Months" in the "book of Allah"?

• For "kitaabi Allah" check other occurrences

Raaajah

Bob

Why be so evasive? Why don?t you provide a direct response to points / questions raised?

Can we keep fasts, and perform Hajj, without a Calendar or not?

If you have invented any other tool than calendar, you are welcome to disclose it, so every body could know. However if you want to quote Dr. Qz here and tell us that there is nothing as "Fasting" and "Hajj" then please don't bother.

oh, Yes please ask Dr. Qz how old is he? I want to send him a birthday gift

Raaajah

San

Mazhar, how do you fit your Hajj concept into the context of verses 91-6?
Especially, where is the relevance today?

What is your problem with these simple ayaats? I would really like to know.
Why should the whole concept of Hajj be fitted in these verses?

san

San
What is your problem with these simple ayaats? I would really like to know.
Why should the whole concept of Hajj be fitted in these verses?

Raaajah, the problem is with those who translate ashhuur into months. Whatever these ashhuur mean, they must have been mentioned "in kitaabillah", as 936 clearly indicates.

And your second question, why not? Hajj is obviously mentioned in there. Plus, these verses are brought into discussion by Mazhar, by the way.

Raaajah

San

And your second question, why not? Hajj is obviously mentioned in there. Plus, these verses are brought into discussion by Mazhar, by the way.

I think he discussed these verses for a specific Question.
Just by mere mentioning of Hajj all the concept of Hajj should be fitted in that specific aayt, sorry i did not get it.

For your first part of post I will reply to you later.

Bob

Bob
If you have invented any other tool than calendar, you are welcome to disclose it, so every body could know. However if you want to quote Dr. Qz here and tell us that there is nothing as "Fasting" and "Hajj" then please don't bother.

oh, Yes please ask Dr. Qz how old is he? I want to send him a birthday gift

HOW DARE YOU TO SAY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HAJJ? >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >(

Lets have a look at Hajj -*

After rising from this sleep, Jacob anointed this rock with, making it a messiah, or ?that which is anointed.? He named this rock BethEl (Heb. Beth=house El=god), or the House of God (Gen. 281. With this symbolic act, Jacob declares his vow to God, ?So that I come again to my father's house in peace ; then shall the Lord be my God. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee?(Gen. 2821-22). By erecting this pillar of God, Jacob purified this land from its worship of false gods and restored the worship of his God. What made this pillar unique was that it was completely devoid of all markings or form. Pagan traditions of the land commonly represented their deity with an idol, often cut from stone, depicted in the physical form. Jacob?s worship was not of the actual un-hewn stone, but the lack of form that it represented.

In Gen. 31, Jacob flees from Laban, but not before ?Rachel stole her father's household gods? (19). When the two finally resolved their dispute, they erected an altar upon which a pillar was placed as the sign of a covenant, in the same manner that the God of BethEl had made a covenant with him (45). Laban had named this altar as a Mizpah, derived from sapha, a smooth and untarnished rock. Laban then swore an oath by ?The God of Abraham and the God of Nahor, the God of their father,? apparently abandoning his gods for the God of Jacob and Abraham (53). This type of altar, a Mizpah, was to later become an important center for the abandonment of idolatry (Dawud 39). Naphthah made his oath to God in Judges 11, and offered his only daughter as a burnt offering for victory against the heathen Ammonites. In Judges 20-21, the 400 swordsmen of 11 tribes swore to God to vanquish Benjamin for their crimes. In I Samuel 8, the entire nation swore to God to destroy idols and images after defeating the Philistines, all before a Mizpah.

After the destruction of the second temple, c. 70 CE (Common Era), the Israelites lost their last remaining center of worship, their Mizpah cleansed of idols. The only faith remaining today with a comparable center of worship is that of Islam. The Ka?ba, the holiest center of worship for Muslims, was first built by Adam but later reconstructed by Abraham and his son Ishmael, apparently in a similar fashion to the Mizpahs of the Israelites.http//www.jews-for-allah.org/Jews-and-Muslims-Agree/jews_and_the_hajj_pilgrimage.htm

"See the close resemblance in the dress code for Brahmin priests and Hajj pilgrims".

http//alamsha.sulekha.com/mstore/alamsha/albums/default/brahmins3.jpg http//alamsha.sulekha.com/mstore/alamsha/albums/default/Hajj1.jpg

BRAHM-IBRAHM-ABRAHM Similarities of Hajj and Hindu temple pooja rituals

Wearing of ehram - unstitched cloth.
Head shaving'
7 times circumambulation of Kaaba anti-clockwise. Hindus circumambulate around "Garbha".
Stoning of the pillar with pebbles. Throwing of flowers on linga is called "Archana"
Animal sacrifice (cow or goat) in Hajj. Non Brahmin dravidan Hindus sacrifice goat.
Colection of holy water Zamzam. Hindus call this holy water "Tirtham".

Brahmins are basically Arab jews and Pagans. 1400 yrs before Islam came, Kaba had 360 idols and Kabaa had thousands of poojaries. Our Prophet's(pbuh) grand father Abdul Muttalib was the chief poojary of Kaba.

Arab jews were worshipping holy cow before Judaism. They entered via Khyber pass and invaded our Dravidan land. http//alamsha.sulekha.com/blog/post/2009/08/brahmins-and-hajj.htm

Muslim hajj

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BrKdlXNWE&feature=player_embedded

Now tell us which aya tells us to kiss AllaT, Hubals daughters vagina ?
http//www.sacred-destinations.com/saudi-arabia/images/mecca/resized/mecca-black-stone-cc-toursaudiarabia.jpg

Which aya tells us to throw stones at Shiva's lingam,,errm i mean the Djinn ?

http//www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/images/StoningofSatan.jpe

heyy whats this,,,??????? o o o o o o o o o o o
http//www.islandcrisis.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Shiva_lingam.jpg

Have a look at " baby kabah's". Do you prostrate to these too ?

http//www.desi.no/forum/uploads/20092/4petradjinnblockslo3.jpg

http//www.desi.no/forum/uploads/20092/alter.jpg

http//www.desi.no/forum/uploads/20092/alter1.jpg

http//news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1830000/images/_1832100_kabah_ap.jpg

oh, Yes please ask Dr. Qz how old is he? I want to send him a birthday gift

He is not that way inclined >(

Plz allow Bezaar avazaar Mazhaar respond without interruption from urself.

Ayisha

o o Bob, you don't mean that...................pre-Islamic pagan traditions and traditions from other religions have crept into Islam do you? o o

Bob

Not in the Quraniq islam , but in the manmade islam,yes. '(