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  4. Proof Qur'an-alone is Error

Proof Qur'an-alone is Error

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  • B Offline
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    Badr
    wrote on last edited by
    #161

    Peace "Badr",

    JK- Nowadays. Didnt you know how "in" faith healing is especially in the US? If not look it up.

    I will.

    JK- I don't believe it does in the sense you understand it from hadith. GOD Bless!

    from the Quran Shiin-Fa-Ya = to cure, quench, restore to health. shifa - recovery, remedy, healing.

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      jonny_k
      wrote on last edited by
      #162

      Peace "Badr"

      I will.

      JK- I don't believe it does in the sense you understand it from hadith. GOD Bless!

      from the Quran Shiin-Fa-Ya = to cure, quench, restore to health. shifa - recovery, remedy, healing.

      JK- But this can just as well be understood as spiritual remedy or societal remedy or even learning about GOD's world and deriving medicine to cure diseases therefrom BUT NOT necessarily remedy via supernatural faith healing. GOD Bless!

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        jonny_k
        wrote on last edited by
        #163

        Peace again "Badr",

        Btw you still didn't reply to this and I consider this important. EVEN IF you insist that there is a differnce between the meanings of "khAmr" and "khUmr" in general, I told you in Quran the maximum we have are letters NOT vowel marks. So we could read the relevant term "khamr" as well as "khUmr". GOD Bless!

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          Badr
          wrote on last edited by
          #164

          Peace "Badr"

          JK- But this can just as well be understood as spiritual remedy or societal remedy or even learning about GOD's world and deriving medicine to cure diseases therefrom BUT NOT necessarily remedy via supernatural faith healing. GOD Bless!

          But this can not also as the primal signification is clear, you leave the first degree understanding to look for another meaning while you risk to miss the true one.

          God states it clearly And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing for the believers

          like There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men;

          You understand these verses differently ?

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            Badr
            wrote on last edited by
            #165

            Peace again "Badr",

            Btw you still didn't reply to this and I consider this important. EVEN IF you insist that there is a differnce between the meanings of "khAmr" and "khUmr" in general, I told you in Quran the maximum we have are letters NOT vowel marks. So we could read the relevant term "khamr" as well as "khUmr". GOD Bless!

            What is the definition of khUmr according to you ?

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              jonny_k
              wrote on last edited by
              #166

              Peace "BAdr",

              But this can not also as the primal signification is clear, you leave the first degree understanding to look for another meaning while you risk to miss the true one.

              JK- Where does it say that it primarily means what you say and as i said EVEN IF IT DOES it doesnt have to be direct but can be achieved by following the system laid out in the Quran. In that sense itd be physical just not as direct as you are claiming it.

              God states it clearly And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing for the believers

              like There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men;

              You understand these verses differently ?

              JK- As far as I'm aware even hadith followers don't insist that the first means physical direct healing via recitation. It all depedns on the context in which the word is used. This is so common. Like in sura 1 (yaumi deen) doies not mean "day of religion" whilst in other verses the same word is translated as such. Another example would be the word "daraba". You can have physical "daraba" as well as "daraba with mithaal" in which case it means symbolically to give/layout an example. GOD Bless!

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                jonny_k
                wrote on last edited by
                #167

                Peace "Badr",

                What is the definition of khUmr according to you ?

                JK- Head cover/simply a cover/something that covers the head/mind. GOD bless!

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                • B Offline
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                  Badr
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #168

                  Peace "Badr",

                  JK- Head cover/simply a cover/something that covers the head/mind. GOD bless!

                  So xhen the prophet says "drink wine" he means drink a "head cover" ?

                  Book 023, Number 4956 (muslim) 'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he said Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.

                  or also in muslim

                  5331 - " " .

                  "Every intoxicant drink is forbidden"

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                    Ayisha
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #169

                    So xhen the prophet says "drink wine" he means drink a "head cover" ?

                    Book 023, Number 4956 (muslim) 'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he said Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.

                    or also in muslim

                    5331 - " " .

                    "Every intoxicant drink is forbidden"

                    which brings us back to reply 106 and 108

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                    • J Offline
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                      jonny_k
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #170

                      Peace "Badr",

                      So xhen the prophet says "drink wine" he means drink a "head cover" ?

                      Book 023, Number 4956 (muslim) 'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he said Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.

                      or also in muslim

                      5331 - " " .

                      "Every intoxicant drink is forbidden"

                      JK- Just because you find a word spelled "kha-miim-ra" in two instances does NOT mean it cannot be read "khamr" in one and "khUmr" in another context. In context of that hadith it is probably makes more sense to use "khamr" cause of of the word "sukur" already used before it which means "that which covers the mind" already. In the relevant Quranic verse however this is not the case and so it is compeltely fine to read it "khumr". SO you can see and even acknowledged it yourself before that the same root and infact the same word can have more than one meaning in different contexts. GOD Bless!

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                        Badr
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #171

                        Peace "Badr",

                        JK- Just because you find a word spelled "kha-miim-ra" in two instances does NOT mean it cannot be read "khamr" in one and "khUmr" in another context. In context of that hadith it is probably makes more sense to use "khamr" cause of of the word "sukur" already used before it which means "that which covers the mind" already. In the relevant Quranic verse however this is not the case and so it is compeltely fine to read it "khumr". SO you can see and even acknowledged it yourself before that the same root and infact the same word can have more than one meaning in different contexts. GOD Bless!

                        it's not Kha-Mim-Ra it's khamr and it is not Sin-Kaf-Ra it's sukr, nothing to do with cover the head and cover the mind. Open a dictionnary and see.

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                          jonny_k
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #172

                          Peace "Badr"

                          it's not Kha-Mim-Ra it's khamr and it is not Sin-Kaf-Ra it's sukr, nothing to do with cover the head and cover the mind. Open a dictionnary and see.

                          JK- How is "kahmr" spelled if not "kha-miim-ra"? NOW i told you whenever we find a word spelled "kha-miim-ra" we can read it as "khamr" or "khumr" depending on what we think best suits the context. ALSO don't you know that the vowel marks were only introduced later to make reading easier especially for non Arabs? GOD Bless!

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                            Badr
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #173

                            Peace "Badr"

                            JK- How is "kahmr" spelled if not "kha-miim-ra"? NOW i told you whenever we find a word spelled "kha-miim-ra" we can read it as "khamr" or "khumr" depending on what we think best suits the context. ALSO don't you know that the vowel marks were only introduced later to make reading easier especially for non Arabs? GOD Bless!

                            You can understand the sens from the context when it's about drinking it's khamr, when it talks about women it's khumr.

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                            • J Offline
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                              jonny_k
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #174

                              Peace "Badr",

                              You can understand the sens from the context when it's about drinking it's khamr, when it talks about women it's khumr.

                              JK- 1st how can you say that in context of drinking whever that word is used additionally it must be "khamr"? SECONDLY nowehere do the verses mentioning "khmr" in association with "msr" and that those are "rijsn shtn" does it talk about drinking(shrb). Here are the verses
                              2219 They ask you about KHMR and MSR say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit."...
                              590 O you who believe, KHMR, AND MSR, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
                              591 The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through KHMR and MSR, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

                              Where's "drinking" mentioned here? GOD Bless!

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                                Badr
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #175

                                Peace "Badr",

                                JK- 1st how can you say that in context of drinking whever that word is used additionally it must be "khamr"? SECONDLY nowehere do the verses mentioning "khmr" in association with "msr" and that those are "rijsn shtn" does it talk about drinking(shrb). Here are the verses
                                2219 They ask you about KHMR and MSR say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit."...

                                it's obviously not a head cover here you have to agree that the head cover can't be that source of benefit and great sin.

                                590 O you who believe, KHMR, AND MSR, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
                                591 The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through KHMR and MSR, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

                                The name of the surat says it all

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                                • J Offline
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                                  jonny_k
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #176

                                  Peace "Badr",

                                  it's obviously not a head cover here you have to agree that the head cover can't be that source of benefit and great sin.

                                  JK- Why not? Somehting which covers the mind can have it's benefits as well as it's -ve point. And i understadn it as something covering the mind or a substance that intoxicates wshich is totally justified.

                                  The name of the surat says it all

                                  JK- 1st even hadith followers are not sure whether the names of suras are just there for convenience or whether they're divinely inspired so from that perspective it doesn't say much. 2ndly many suras which are headed by a certain topic do not speak about the same topic throughout but a wide range of topics which are repeated in other surahs again adding more or less detail. GOD Bless!

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                                    Leyna
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #177

                                    like Abi Huraira for example, this one and a few others were trustworthy and the sayings they collected were transmitted untill today.

                                    Abu Huraira was anything but trustworthy, he was a liar with a faulty memory and has been harshly criticized by Ayisha and Omar Ibn al-Khattab for his reckless distribution of hearsay about the prophet.

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                                      Mushu
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #178

                                      Abu Huraira was anything but trustworthy, he was a liar with a faulty memory and has been harshly criticized by Ayisha and Omar Ibn al-Khattab for his reckless distribution of hearsay about the prophet.

                                      He might not even have existed, given that he does not even appear in the muwatta of Malik. Funny how he's the most prolific narrator in the later hadith collections.

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                                      • B Offline
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                                        Badr
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #179

                                        Peace "Badr",

                                        JK- Why not? Somehting which covers the mind can have it's benefits as well as it's -ve point. And i understadn it as something covering the mind or a substance that intoxicates wshich is totally justified.

                                        JK- 1st even hadith followers are not sure whether the names of suras are just there for convenience or whether they're divinely inspired so from that perspective it doesn't say much. 2ndly many suras which are headed by a certain topic do not speak about the same topic throughout but a wide range of topics which are repeated in other surahs again adding more or less detail. GOD Bless!

                                        Mmmmmh hmm NO !

                                        Both arguments are too much forced.

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                                          Badr
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #180

                                          Abu Huraira was anything but trustworthy, he was a liar with a faulty memory and has been harshly criticized by Ayisha and Omar Ibn al-Khattab for his reckless distribution of hearsay about the prophet.

                                          Says Leyna from free-minds.org

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