Who Was the Pharoah of Moses
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Salam, everyone.
This article was originally supposed to be part of the "Search for Muhammad has Ended" thread, but on second thought, I decided to post it into a seperate thread.
The article is a translation (and at the same time a summary) of a book called "The Call of the Surat The Search for Pharoah".
May it guide you to the truth.
- Uncovering the Truths That Have Been Hidden From the Global Consciousness
One of the greatest distortions perpetrated by a league of ancient Jewish clerics and successfully passed onto not only the Jewish people, but on the whole world, including Muslims, was to forge the identity card of Pharoah; the tyrant who lived at the time of Moses (P), and whom Allah has specifically mentioned from among the many tyrants of the ancient world. Our aim here is to show you just how this forgery was done, what were the goals behind it, and how it has contributed to creating one of the greatest delusions that humanity has ever known.
We will begin by asking you all the following question What is the first image that comes to your mind when you are asked to paint a picture of Pharoah? Does the image look like picture #1, or does it look like picture #2?
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Picture1.jpg
Picture 1 An image of Pharoah
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Picture2.jpg
Picture 2 An image of Pharoah
It is not strange that the first thing that will come to the minds of the vast majority of you, I?ll say 99.99%, is that of picture #1, which shows one of the kings of the Nile valley. On the other hand, very few people (only 0.01%) will consider picture #2, which shows a traditional Arabian chief or ruler, even one as vile as ?Abu Sufyan? or ?Al-Waleed Ibn Magheera?.
However, we can say, for certain, that there is a very tiny minority in our world who, after doing some searching in the darkest and most forgotten corners of history, who know for a fact that the Pharoah of Moses (P) was indeed more like picture #2, and that the figure shown in picture #1 is completely innocent of having anything at all to do with Moses (P) or the Israelites. The reason they keep this knowledge to themselves is simple They are afraid that the vast majority will ridicule them, or perhaps they fear standing face to face with the Hamans of our age, just as Galileo was afraid of standing face to face with the heads of the Church, back in the Dark Ages, when he discovered that the Earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around. As for the few men in this world who had the guts to stand up and declare the truth concerning the identity of Pharoah; men like Kamal Salibi, Ibn Qarnas, Ayman Fodah, Ahmad Dawood, Bernard Leeman, and others, did not receive any attention, neither from the media, nor from the academic institutions of this world (and you all know who controls these institutions). As a result, the truth about the real identity of Pharoah remained hidden, buried under the rampant and traditional beliefs of people.
Now, if you are among the majority who chose picture #1, we will ask you another question what is your proof? To make it simple, we asked this question to a sample of 100 people in an Arab, Islamic country, and the number one answer that 80% of them gave was the following ?It?s common knowledge. Or parents told us this, and this is what we have always known?.
The remaining 20% of them pointed to the history books, and media (cinema, documentaries, books, etc?) as well as their educational institution, all of which claim that Pharoah was the ruler of Egypt.Our question here is the following Is common knowledge that is rampant in any society, irrespective of its culture or religious beliefs, necessarily the truth? For example, people in many cultures believe that statues and stone idols of Buddha, Sheeva, the saints, the graves of the Imams, the Wailing Wall, the Kaaba, etc?all of them bring these people closer to the Creator. Is this ?common belief? necessarily true? In the ancient world, there was common knowledge that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that the sun revolved around the Earth. This GREEK belief, originating from Aristotle (died 322 B.C) and later supported by Ptolemy, remained rampant in the old world for more than 13 centuries, until Galileo proved it wrong in the 1640 A.D. Was this common belief true?
There are nearly one billion Catholics in the world today who believe that God sent his only son to die on the cross in Palestine some 2000 years ago, in order to absolve all humanity of their sins. The question remains Is this really the truth? Or is it a LIE FABRICATED FOR POLITICAL MANIPULATION??
(Remember this phrase very well, because we will be returning to it very often, later on A LIE FABRICATED FOR POLITICAL MANIPULATION).
What we will say here is that any Muslim who takes any piece of information or knowledge as unquestionable truth, just because his parents or political leaders or religious figures say it is so, is going completely against the orders of the Quran and the warnings of Allah?s messengers, and has only himself to blame for the consequences of his inherited beliefs.
{And if they are told "Come to what God has sent down, and to the messenger;" they say "We are content with what we found our fathers doing." What if their fathers did not know anything nor were guided?}?
{They said "We found our fathers worshipping them."}?
{And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path?}?
According to the vast majority of Muslims, the word ?Misr? which appears a total of 7 times in the Quran indicates Egypt, the Nile Country. Even Freeminds has adopted this common translation of the word. As a result, it is ?common knowledge? among them that Moses (P) and the Israelites were there, and that ?Pharoah? was the title given to the rulers of Egypt, one of whom persecuted Moses and his people.
Is this common knowledge necessarily the truth? Is it not open to debate? Is it really unquestionable?
The fact is, the Quran does indeed say that Pharoah was the supreme ruler of ?Misr?. We are not questioning that. In fact, Pharoah himself declares it
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
What we are questioning is, precisely Does the word ?Misr? actually mean ?Egypt??
In order to answer this question, let us ask the people of the modern-day Republic of Egypt (since we are assuming - for the sake of argument only - that Pharaoh was indeed there, in the ancient times) What was the name that they called their country by, during the 6th Century A.D, which is the period when the Quran was revealed to Muhammad (P)? If we can find some piece of evidence, perhaps a formal letter or note exchanged between Arabia and the Nile country at that time, it will help us answer this question.
According to Islamic traditions, the prophet Muhammad (P) sent several letters to the leaders of the neighboring empires, inviting them to embrace Islam, for their own sake. One of these letters was sent to the leader of the Nile Country (under Roman mandate), whose title was ?Al-Muqawqas?. Here is the translation of what the letter said
?In the name of God, the Rahman, the Raheem. From Muhammad, son of Abdullah, to Al-Muqawqas, Highest of the "Qibt" Peace be on those who follow the guidance. I hereby call upon you to embrace Islam, that you may be saved, and Allah will repay you twice. If you deny, you shall bear the responsibility for the sins of the Qibt??
As is made clear by the letter, Muhammad (P) called the leader of Egypt under Roman mandate ?Azheem?ul-Qibt?. And this word, ?Qibt?, was the name given by the Arabs, during Muhammad?s time, to the great country that lay across the Red Sea, and its people were known as ?Aqbat?. Do you see the words ?Misr? (to denote the land) or ?Misriyyoun? (to denote its people) appear anywhere in Muhammad?s letter? In fact, Muhammad (P), strictly abided by the known protocols of international diplomacy at the time, as is made evident by the other letters he sent to other rulers. For instance, he addressed Heraclius, the Emperor of Byzantine Rome at the time as ?Heracl, Azeem? ul Room?. He addressed ?Khosrau?, the King of Persian as ?Kisra, Malik? ul Furs? . And he addressed the Negus, ruler of Ethiopia as ?Al- Najashi, Azheem? ul Habasha?. It is as clear as the sun that the terms ?Room? (Romans), ?Furs? (Persians), and ?Habasha? (Ethiopia) denote NATIONALITIES, and COUNTRIES not RELIGIONS. By the same logic, ?Al-Qibt? denotes the country, and ?Al-Aqbat? denotes their nationality.
In fact, tradition also tells us that one of Muhamad?s wives was named ?Maria al-Qubtiyya?. This means she was Egyptian. And these same traditions also tell us that later on she embraced Islam, and despite this, she still retained the nickname ?Al-Qubtiyya?, even after she became ?Mother to the Believers?. This proves that the title of ?Qubti? in its true, original meaning, denoted the Egyptian NATIONALITY. Hence, ALL Egyptians were called ?Aqbat? by the Arabs, not just the Christians from among them, as is rampant today.
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Picture3.jpg
Picture 3 Letter purpotedly written by Muhamad's (P) own hand, and addressed to "Al-Muqawqas"
Regardless if the letter shown above was indeed written by the hand of Muhamad himself or not, just take a good look at the script. The way the words are written (no punctuation or accentuation marks on the letters) indicate that it must have been no later than the late 8th Century. So even if someone forged that letter and claimed that Muhamad (P) wrote it, it still doesn?t change the fact that Egypt was in fact known to the Arabs as "Al-Qibt", at least until the end of the 8th Century A.D. Anyone who is familiar with the Arabic manuscripts of teh Quran, for example, can easily confirm this.
So where did the name ?Misr? come from then? This is the whole purpose of our search.
Until now, we have seen that the Nile Country, during Muhamad?s time, was known as ?Al-Qibt?. But this still doesn?t tell us what the land was called during Pharoah? s era, which came 1,900 years before Muhamad?s time (remember we are still assuming ? for the sake of argument ? that Pharoah was the ruler of Egypt).
So let us take a trip through history, to see just what that land was called during the ancient times. Perhaps it was called ?Misr? during Pharaoh?s time, and then later on became ?Qibt?? Let?s check.
- The Nile Valley during ancient times
Historians generally agree to divide the history of Egypt into 2 periods The Old Age (or Historic Age), and the Age of Dynasties (or Royal Age). During the Old Age, the land was divided into several, independent provinces, which gradually starting coming together, until they formed two big regions Upper Egypt (the interior part) and Lower Egypt (the coastal part, which includes the Nile Delta area). Each of these two regions had its own ruler. This status remained until the year 3020 B.C, when king Narmer united both parts for the first time, and thus began the Age of Dynasties, which witnessed the rise of 30 royal families starting from Narmer of the first Dynasty, and ending with the Ptolemic Era, when Alexander the Great conquered Egypt in the year 332 B.C.
What was the name of the land back then? During the Historic age, the Nile Valley was not yet unified. As a result, the historians and archeologists have not found a name for it, because it was composed of scattered towns and villages. It was not until the second age, when a unified name for the country finally emerged. This name was ?Kemet? or ?Keme?, as is evident in the hieroglyphs unearthed from the Nile. And this name, when translated, means ?The Black Soil?, which is thought to indicate the fertility of the Nile valley. Some archeologist claimed that the country later became known as ?Het-Ka-Ptah?, named so after the famous Egyptian Deity ?Ptah?. However, the majority of academics don?t agree on this isse, as they claim the name was given only to a particular region or city, not the entire valley.
Whatever the case, we have three names that have been proposed as the original name of the Nile Country (Keme, Kemet, Het-Ka-Ptah) and NONE of them bear any semblance or relation to ?Misr? whatsoever.
- The Nile Valley Under Persian Rule
The Persians ruled the Nile Valley during two, separate, periods. The first was from the year 525 B.C until the year 404 B.C (total of 5 kings, the last of whom was Darius II) while the second, shorter period, came from 341 B.C until 332 B.C, when the Persians were expelled by the Greeks.
And throughout the rule of the Persians, there is not a single record or archeological trace, whether in the Nile Valley or in Persia, that indicates that the Persians changed the name of the country.
- Name of the Nile Valley during the Greek and Roman eras
The Ptolemic Age began in 332 B.C, under King Ptolemy son of Lagos (Ptolemy I), and ended with the Roman conquest of 30 B.C, under Emperor Augustus. We have decided to include both these periods together, because the trace they left on the names of the towns and the administrative divisions was mostly the same. The only exception was that the Greeks changed some of the names of the cities because they could not pronounce their original, native names. For example, the city of Mem-Noffer became Memphis, while Kheem became Litopolis. But about the entire country? What name did they give to it?
The Greeks and Romans have left us one name, that has endured until now. This name, as it appears on the Greek maps, was ?Aegyptus?. On the Roman maps, it appears as ?Egyptus?.
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Map1-1.jpg
Ancient Greek map, showing the name Aegyptus
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Map2-1.jpg
Roman map By Marcus Vispanius (year 20 A.D)
And it is this name, ?E-gypt-us? that is pronounced ?Qobt? (or "Qibt" in Arabic. As for the name ?Misr?, we did not find a SINGLE archeological trace for it until that time. We did not find ONE town that bore it. We did not find a single map that showed it. Throughout the 5000 ? year history of that ancient land , there has never been a single indication, in all of the ancient world, that the Nile country was ever called ?Misr?, or anything even remotely resembling ?Misr? by anyone. EVER.
How can the name of such an ancient and famous land be changed like that? How can it be given a name that never existed in its entire history? While if you look at the two maps above, you will note that Libya maintained its same name since the Greek age, until today, despite the fact that Libya was far less influential and important than Egypt in the politics of the ancient world.
Who was behind this forgery?
- The Originality of the Word ?Egypt?.
In our present day, whenever a resident of the Nile country wants to introduce himself to an American or a European, he says to them ?I am Egyptian? (Meaning I am a ?Qibty?), without even being aware of it. Yet when he is talking to an Arab person, he will say ?I am Misri?!! This is truly a mind-boggling phenomenon that we don?t see anywhere else in the world. The reason why Westerners aren?t familiar with the term ?Misr? or ?Misri?, is because they chose to stick to the ORIGINAL name of that land, which is Aegyptus ? Egyptus. And can we blame them? Put yourselves in their place Do you approve of changing the original and ancient name of a great land or kingdom, like China, or Persia, or India, just because some ignorant fool during the ABBASID AGE, decided, with a stroke of a pen, to give it a new name in his records?
Now you will ask me What is your proof that ?Al-Qibt? is the original name of the Nile Country? I will tell you that
EGYPT = QIBT.
Can it be any simpler than that? This is the real name of the Nile Country that has been known in the East and West since forever. And it was the name known by Muhamad (P) and the Arabs during his time. Who the Hell are we to change it? On the other hand, I defy you to be able to analyze the word ?Misr? and to be able to find one common, unified, name that even remotely resembles it, in all corners of the world ? like we did with ?Egypt? ? without twisting the word to make it fit by force.
Going back to the originality of the word ?Qibt? (Or ?Qobt? as some pronounce it), we can say for certain that this name is much much older than was first thought. It goes back to an age even far earlier than 3020 B.C, when Narmer unified both regions of the land. This name appears in the Legend of Osiris, which was related to us by the Greek historian Plutarch. The legend states that
?When Isis learned of the death of her husband, Osiris, at the hands of Set, she wore the black shroud and mourned him, in great sadness, and she cut the curls of her hair from the weight of the catastrophe, and the land became known, since then, as Koptos ? meaning the land that weeps/mourns. And she went to look for her husband?s body, for Set had thrown it in the Nile?.
And that, folks, is the story of the name. Koptos ? Coptos ? Qobt ? Qibt ? Egypt. It is a name that goes back in originality over 5000 years.
Where does ?Misr? fit in? You tell me? Just how in the Hell did ?Egypt? become ?Misr??.
Did Allah, in His final message to mankind, decide to name it so? Is it possible that Allah, who is quoting Pharoah himself in the Quran (4351) label the land with a name it never new in its entire history?
WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR BRAINS??? Do we ever think?
Where did the name ?Misr? come from then? This is what we will answer soon.
For now, I think the picture has become clear to you The term ?Qobty ? Qibty? is the Arabic term that must be used to describe ALL Egyptians, whether they are Muslims or Christians. This name is their national identity that has been hijacked from them by some criminals of the Abbasid Age, and replaced with the forged name ?Misr?.
Have you ever asked yourselves why the Christians of Egypt call themselves "COPTS" - ?Qibty" (?Aqbat? in the plural form?). It is because, without being aware of it, they kept their original identity name! In truth, there is no religious sect called ?Qibty?. This is a fallacy. The Christians of Egypt are no different than their Greek Orthodox fellows in Lebanon, Syria, or even Russia. Same belief system, same rituals, and same spiritual reference (the Eastern Church). And the Muslims of the Nile country today, had better realize that they too are ?Aqbat?. They are ?Muslim Aqbat?. Simple as that?
To be continued?
Peace.
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Thank you!
I agree with all, specially Koptos, Kopti, because in some parts of Europe where I live it is quite familiar as well.
Since I am not an Arab, and I do not speak or know Arabic, even so, when I read The Quran, I always felt that Pharaoh and Moses have nothing to do with modern Egypt notion.
Looking forward for the continuation.
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The fact is, the Quran does indeed say that Pharoah was the supreme ruler of ?Misr?. We are not questioning that. In fact, Pharoah himself declares it
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
What we are questioning is, precisely Does the word ?Misr? actually mean ?Egypt??
...As for the name ?Misr?, we did not find a SINGLE archeological trace for it until that time. We did not find ONE town that bore it. We did not find a single map that showed it. Throughout the 5000 ? year history of that ancient land , there has never been a single indication, in all of the ancient world, that the Nile country was ever called ?Misr?, or anything even remotely resembling ?Misr? by anyone. EVER.
Peace Pazuzu -- this was posted before; read what the king of Egypt (sar Misrii) wrote and others referred to them. The Amarna tablets are named after the site Tell el-Amarna (in middle Egypt) where they were discovered in 1887 which Qur'an referred to them by the same name.
Egypt Amarna letters/tablets (1350s ? 1330s BCE)
http//www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.html
Rib Addi to a chief
EA#95 vd(53) mentions Aman and Baalat of Gubla; mentions houses, Amri, Adi-, king of Mt, Ami; says `Let g (sar) of Eypt (Miisri) sen hs deputy to me'Rib-Addi to the king, No. 53
EA#137 gc(103) uses 4 line greeting; states,I have repeatedly written fo; but it has not been given ...';... And I have sent (my) mes to the palace; but he with empty hands ...'; ...Since no silver has been given, so they insult me, like the regents, my brothers, and they despise me.'; ...I went to Hamuniri, and my brother, who is younger than I, incited Gubla so that the city was given to the sons of Abdi-Asirta. ... he ... committed a crime and drove me from the city. Let the king not hold back in respect to the deed of this dog.'; continues,I cannot come to the lands of Egypt (i-ri-ba a-na m?t?ti mi-is-ri-e). I am old, and my body is afflicted with a severe desease. ... the gods of Gubla are angry, and the disease is worse, and I have acknowledged my sins to the gods'; asks for archers again and the king's support of Gubla and says ...numerous are the people, who love me, in the city. Few are the hostile people in it.'; says, ...let my lord know that I would die for him.'; ...Let the king, my lord, not hold back from the city. For there is a very great deal of silver (and) gold in it ...'; continues, ...If they capture it (Gubla) ... then ... let the king ... give the city of Buruzilim to me for a residence. Behold, I am before Hamuniri on account of the sons of Abdi-Asirti.'; states, ...If the king holds back ... all the cities of Kinahni will be lost to him. ... If the king ... has compassion upon me, and brings me back to the city, then will I protect i, a is derived from the verb "" (dr?ssomai, "to grasp". Initially a drachma was a fistful (a "grasp" of six oboloi (metal sticks), which were used as a form of currency as early as 1100 BC. It was the standard unit of silver coinage at most ancient Greek and Roman mints, and the name 'obol' was used to describe a coin that was one-sixth of a drachma. The notion that "drachma" derived from the word for fistful apparently dates at least to Herakleides of Pontos (387-312 BC) but the metrologist Livio C. Stecchini argued that drachma was instead a word of semitic origin. Stecchini was often out of the mainstream. His argument seems plausible (see www.metrum.org) but remains obscure. -
hmm first og all, who believes in the Islamic tradition, or rather AHADITH? You are using AHADITH to proove that masr is not Egypt, but since I don't believe in ahaditg this 'proof' is absurd. Perhaps you shiuld ask this to sunnies who believe in ''Islamic traditions''.
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Noon the Plume...
I swear by Allah's name that I did not understand a single word of your post. PLEASE try to make it more simple... Try explaining it with your own words.
first og all, who believes in the Islamic tradition, or rather AHADITH? You are using AHADITH to proove that masr is not Egypt, but since I don't believe in ahaditg this 'proof' is absurd. Perhaps you shiuld ask this to sunnies who believe in ''Islamic traditions''.
Dear "WhereIsTheTruth"
Let's say the letter was forged and Muhamad (P) didn't write it. That still doens't change the fact that Egypt was called "al-Qybt" by the Arabs, when the Quran was revealed. If I wanted to forge a letter and claim that Muhamad wrote it, I would have to at least take a precaution and make sure that the names I am attributing to him did in fact exist during his time.
Let's say someone, living 100 years after the Prophet, forged that letter....How could he possibly give that land a name that didn;t even exist back then?
Anyway, I don't know if I should even bother continuing this thread....
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Anyway, I don't know if I should even bother continuing this thread....
You know what they call such people right? Yes. Don't take us to the edge and refuse to shove us off please.
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I am interested in this question and would like Pazuzu to continue.
I would also like to point out tht root mSr in ?rabic has a meaning which deals with settlement, settlements, cities, populated and built areas. It is quite possible, s is now th csase in Egypt that a populated and built place, specially big, like Cairo, be called MaSr. My guess is that it is that its use as a proper name is an extension of its primary meaning. So a settlement, you call that the settlement par excellence, the one you have at hand, the one which is important to you.
The Egypt and Coptic line seems quite reasonable. Also, it would be important to analyse the question to know, is there such a word in ancient Egyptian as mSr. ?Is it a loan from ?rabic or semitial languages?
Salaam
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Yes, please continue.
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Noon the Plume...
I swear by Allah's name that I did not understand a single word of your post. PLEASE try to make it more simple... Try explaining it with your own words.
Pazuzu
Thought it was simple. Google Amarna letters/tablets (1350s ? 1330s BCE)
Click this link to read letters ---> http//www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.html
Rib Addi to a chief
EA#95 vd(53) mentions Aman and Baalat of Gubla; mentions houses, Amri, Adi-, king of Mt, Ami; says `Let g (sar) of Eypt (Miisri) sen hs deputy to me'Egypt or mi-i-ri appears all over the letters; do a search for transliteration here
http//oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amarna/corpus
Peace
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Anyway, I don't know if I should even bother continuing this thread....
Salaam Pazuzu
It is not first time that I have read your posts I also believe your finding about Marium, sister of Aron, made more sense. I too have seen programmes about Palestine having no link to what's in the Torah and also saw a programme about Yemen and a city discoved there with ritual baths which was taken by jews but it's thanks to your showing clearly all proofs that we now know. In the same series they alos showed where kingdom of Sheba existed and said that excavation showed the garden which matched the description given in the Qur'an.
However there are people on this forum who are desprate to prove that Prophet Mohmad did not exist so for them its a bomb shell, and that is why they claim but since I don't believe in ahaditg this 'proof' is absurd.
Please continue as many are looking forward to your post
Jazakallah Khair -
Noon the Plume...
I swear by Allah's name that I did not understand a single word of your post. PLEASE try to make it more simple... Try explaining it with your own words.
Dear "WhereIsTheTruth"
Let's say the letter was forged and Muhamad (P) didn't write it. That still doens't change the fact that Egypt was called "al-Qybt" by the Arabs, when the Quran was revealed. If I wanted to forge a letter and claim that Muhamad wrote it, I would have to at least take a precaution and make sure that the names I am attributing tuo him did in fact exist during his time.
Let's say someone, living 100 years after the Prophet, forged that letter....How could he possibly give that land a name that didn;t even exist back then?
Anyway, I don't know if I should even bother continuing this thread....
Brother
your argument is still flawed brother, because you use lies to proove something. How can you rely on sonething unreliable? And secondly it does not matter what the Arabs called or calls Egypt for they have altered their language many times , and location name can change for a period for example the indian city was called bombay but suddenly caed mumbai. What matters is what muhammed - if that was his named - used to call egypt, and the only resources you have available is a bunch of myths and fabrications attributed to a muhammed. In short, yiur arguments are only valid if you take AHADITH serious and as reliable sources. Otherwise you must use the quran in order to proove that Egypt isnt masr.Having said all this, I am very impressed by your affords of discoveting the quranic secrets. We can sometimes be wrong and sometimes right but what matter Is that We try to do researches and investigations like you do.
So, i am looking forward to read more from you, god willing. -
I will continue this thread..
Let me start by clearing a few things out, first
Otherwise you must use the quran in order to proove that Egypt isnt masr.
I most certainly will. Until now, I have relied only on a few maps, traces from Arab traditions, and some realities on the ground. Once we get to the serious parts (archeology + analysis of the Quranic verses), you will deduce by yourself that the word "misr" is NOT a proper noun, nor does it indicate a country, and that the geography of the events mentioned in chapter 12 of the Quran (which relates the story of the prophet Joseph) could not possibly have taken place in Egypt. They took place in a mountainous country, and along a trade route.
I would also like to point out tht root mSr in ?rabic has a meaning which deals with settlement, settlements, cities, populated and built areas. It is quite possible, s is now th csase in Egypt that a populated and built place, specially big, like Cairo, be called MaSr. My guess is that it is that its use as a proper name is an extension of its primary meaning. So a settlement, you call that the settlement par excellence, the one you have at hand, the one which is important to you.
At last, the voice of reason has spoken! You have lept ahead of me there.
Even today, our fellow Egyptians (both Christians and Muslims) when they are travelling to Cairo, they will say "We are going down to 'misr'". However, as soon as they reach Cairo, they drop the word 'misr' from their speech, and switch to Cairo instead!
Isn't that strange? There is something deep-rooted in the memory of all Egyptians, which causes them to link their capital, Cairo, with the word "misr". And this thing originated with the Arab conquest of Egypt, which happened some 20 years after Muhamad's (P) death, as you will soon see.
@Noon dhe plume
First thing you should know is that the Quran did NOT borrow words from any other language. Arabic doesn't need to borrow any words from Greek, because Arabic is eons older than Greek. It's the other way around, actually. Stecchini was right.
The reason some people THINK there are non-Arabic words in the Quran is purely due to their ignorance of the Arabic roots. And this ignorance also causes them to produce supernatural and mythological interpretations for it.For example
IF you look at most translations of the Quran, you will see that the word "Iblees" is kept as it is - untranslated - because it is perceived as a proper noun of a supernatural creature. These same people will tell you that the Quran borrowed it from the Greek word "di-abolos" (diablos). This is absolutely ridiculous and unfounded. The word "Iblees" comes from the root verb "balasa" . From it, we can derive the plural adjective "mublisoon" as well as the wrod "Iblas" , which denotes a certain mental or emotional state DESPAIR.
{Surely, the criminals will abide in the retribution of jahannam * It will not be removed from them; and they will be full of despair (mublisoon) therein}.... 4374,75
{Until We open for them a door of immense retribution, then they become full of despair (mublisoon)}.... 237
It is obvioulsy an original Arabic word (and a common noun, at that) or else how can you explain all its derivatives?
Another Example
The word "Shaytan" is thought of as a non-Arabic word, taken from the Latin "Satanicus" (Satan).
HOGWASH!!
It's the other way around. Latin took it from Arabic. The word comes from the root verb "Shatana" , which means to go far, or become distant. The Arabic expression "Bi'r shatoon" means "deep well" (a well whose bottom is very far and distant). Hence, al-Shaytan is the tendency inside each and everyone of us to "distance ourself from the universal divine laws". And as a result of this, we end up in despair (state of "iblas", from which comes "iblees".
I can give you dozens of examples, but since Arabic is not your mother tongue, you probably won't understand what I'm jabbering about. Besides, I don't want to stray from the subject, anyway.
Now concerning the Amarna Tablets, first thing you need to know is that they were not written in Hieroglyphic, but in cuniform Akkadian, which appears to have been the language of diplomacy back then. The word "MISR" does NOT exist in the Ancient Egyptian language, and no trace of it appears in any hieroplyphic ruins (nor does the word "Pharoah" for you information). I can say this with 100% confidence.
It is a Semitic word, as Huruf pointed out, but there is no proof that it was the proper noun for the Nile country, in teh Akkadian language. And even if it was, it is totally irrelevent to our argument, because the Quran is quoting Pharoah directly
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
It is Pharoah himself who is speaking there. So, if we are assuming that Pharoah was king of the Nile Valley, this means that he was calling his own land "Misr", and expecting his people (teh listeners) to understand him. If you scroll back up to my first post, you will note that the methodology we built the entire search on was to ask the people of EGYPT ITSELF, what THEY called their land in the old times. Not what OTHER people called it. So if the Accadians called Egypt "Misr", I could care less, and it it is totally irrelevent to our discusion, because Pharoah was not a mesopotamian ruler. There is ZERO archeological proof in Egypt itself, that the land was ever called "Misr" BY THE EGYPTIANS THEMSELVES. Every evidence found suggests either "Kheme", "Keme" or "Kemet" as the name of the land, with "Koptos" as a possible adjective for it.
I too have seen programmes about Palestine having no link to what's in the Torah and also saw a programme about Yemen and a city discoved there with ritual baths which was taken by jews but it's thanks to your showing clearly all proofs that we now know. In the same series they alos showed where kingdom of Sheba existed and said that excavation showed the garden which matched the description given in the Qur'an.
My friend, there are secrets burried under Asir and Yemen that we could only dream of. Arabia has not seen 1% of what it deserves in terms of archeological excavation. Once that land is allowed to speak, and spill forth its contents, you can rest assured that it will turn everything we know about history upside down. The Saudi and Yemeni rulers are sitting on their asses having no idea what is burried under their feet. The reason they don't dig is not because they don't want to "violate the sacntity of the dead"". This is just an excuse.
It's because they are AFRAID. Afraid of what they may find.
But the memory of the people who live in those areas, contains all the stories of the prophets whom we have always thought lived elsewhere.
Peace....
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Salam,
Not to spoil this story, but the Quran does use the title "Pharoh" when speaking of the King of Egypt during the time of Moses - which, unless I have misread the facts, was the title used by the rulers of the land known as "Egypt".
As for the comment that "Misr" is not found in any ancient maps...I would say that since the Quran refers to "Misr" as the name of the land at the time of Jospeh and Moses, that is the time period that needs to be studied as the kingdom of Egypt crumbled after Moses. Also, the name is an Arabic one, which means we need Arabic maps since if we look at the Roman maps and search for "Yathrib" or "Misr" we may get "Marcodoba" and "Egypt" as their Latin alternatives.
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In a Spanish language forum in which I participate, we have a colleague who has sustainedly upheld that every single word in the Qur'an is radically Arabic, and that many that are taken to be proper names are indeed qualifications, names or descriptions of the object or person following Arabic roots. Up to now I have found his analysis an explanations through and convincing and they do make a lot of sense as to the content of the Qur'an.
Salaam
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@Noon dhe plume
First thing you should know is that the Quran did NOT borrow words from any other language. Arabic doesn't need to borrow any words from Greek, because Arabic is eons older than Greek. It's the other way around, actually. Stecchini was right.
The reason some people THINK there are non-Arabic words in the Quran is purely due to their ignorance of the Arabic roots. And this ignorance also causes them to produce supernatural and mythological interpretations for it.Peace Pazuzu,
All languages evolved over time or are you claiming Arabic is the original language of mankind and had words like dirhams the Romans Egypt before currency and those people existed?
Now concerning the Amarna Tablets, first thing you need to know is that they were not written in Hieroglyphic, but in cuniform Akkadian, which appears to have been the language of diplomacy back then. The word "MISR" does NOT exist in the Ancient Egyptian language, and no trace of it appears in any hieroplyphic ruins (nor does the word "Pharoah" for you information). I can say this with 100% confidence.
It is a Semitic word, as Huruf pointed out, but there is no proof that it was the proper noun for the Nile country, in teh Akkadian language. And even if it was, it is totally irrelevent to our argument, because the Quran is quoting Pharoah directly
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
It is Pharoah himself who is speaking there. So, if we are assuming that Pharoah was king of the Nile Valley, this means that he was calling his own land "Misr", and expecting his people (teh listeners) to understand him. If you scroll back up to my first post, you will note that the methodology we built the entire search on was to ask the people of EGYPT ITSELF, what THEY called their land in the old times. Not what OTHER people called it. So if the Accadians called Egypt "Misr", I could care less, and it it is totally irrelevent to our discusion, because Pharoah was not a mesopotamian ruler. There is ZERO archeological proof in Egypt itself, that the land was ever called "Misr" BY THE EGYPTIANS THEMSELVES. Every evidence found suggests either "Kheme", "Keme" or "Kemet" as the name of the land, with "Koptos" as a possible adjective for it.
Akkadian, a Semitic language and correspondences sent to Egypt calling them Misri is not a proof?
Qur?an is translations of what people said or perhaps answer who?s talking throughout chapter 18; was the two horns an Arab and people he encountered are being quoted verbatim in Arabic?
1894 they said O you the two horns
Peace
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Salam to all, hope everyone is doing fine.
I might be wrong, but I think what Pazuzu is trying to bring across are some researches done by Dawood, Kamal Sabili, Ziad Mouna to name a few.
Here's a link to an article which might be of interest to better understand Pazuzu. Would be interesting to know what you guys think of the article.
link http//www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx
Peace
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The Arabic in Qur'an is actually a translation of the language spoken back then and uses borrowed words; e.g. drachma or Greek coin at time of revelation did not exist in ancient Egypt (i.e. Mi'ra) another borrowed word.
How so? What does it mean?
I understand that The Quran is not a history book, but a book on religion, so, not too much historic accuracy is needed, but still, are you suggesting that there is some discrepancy or falsehood?
