Who Was the Pharoah of Moses
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Dear Pauzu, Peace,
You have much consumed the space of forum just to suggest that Musa alahissalam never lived in Misr-known in English world as Egypt.
Wherever Musa alahissalam lived, there the mention and existence of water streams is the most obvious geographic fact. He, in his life time, also went to a confluence.
Salaam Mazhar
As you know Arabic well could you translate this and inform us if this is about a stream or a river;Secondly I am surprised that you did not object to waste of space on this forum as it fills with baseless accusation, which I think is more objectionable.
Finally I agree with you regarding the children of Israel as they are not extinct and I believe still are around as Allah asked them to fulfill their covenant....
peace -
Salaam Mazhar
As you know Arabic well could you translate this and inform us if this is about a stream or a river;Secondly I am surprised that you did not object to waste of space on this forum as it fills with baseless accusation, which I think is more objectionable.
Finally I agree with you regarding the children of Israel as they are not extinct and I believe still are around as Allah asked them to fulfill their covenant....
peaceThe Mother is being advised to perform an act, to take a smaller risk in case of life threatening danger for her son. It is obvious that she certainly knows which specific is referred.
I am sure you are not interested in examining me about understanding of Arabic. Therefore, I prefer that to know this we may see 2039
And Lane says that the read word means shore of a sea or great river. I leave it your judgment to decide that in the circumstances stated in the episode points towards the specific river or specific sea around or nearby the residence of the lady-My respects and salutations to her.
Let the Qur'aan make it easier for you to decide about it
Can you see this scene on the shore of a sea if the baby basket was put into a sea?
One interesting fact has emerged from your query, this Ayah shows the Palace of Pharaoh was on the River bank.
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This just reminds me of that Sherlock Holmes adventure in which the solution is given by the dog that did not bark.
Anhar, abhar, yumum, what not, but just a single word that would have been said in place of all those would have settled the matter straight away and shown that the "musa fi Egypt" crowd is right. Really, really a jam that that word is not there, in spite of so many terms aspiring to be traced, OF COURSE, WHAT ELSE? to the Nile.
Why couldn't the sister just have been told to set the chest in the Nile? The famous Nile, you know. Why, instead of those streams, not let the Nile run at the feet of Fir3aun? Why instead of Musa having to go to where the abhar meet, just go to the head of the Nile or to where another river joinst it?
Did God have anything against that magnificent river?
What did the Nile not bark?
As we say, for God the opportunity to keep mum did not go wasted. Unless, of course, there was no Nile in sight in the whole business.
By the way, not all seas loose things. In many places the currents will bring back to shore what is thrown into them. People who live there usually know these things and know where something will turn up on the shore.
Salaam
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Did God have anything against that magnificent river?
By the way, not all seas loose things. In many places the currents will bring back to shore what is thrown into them. People who live there usually know these things and know where something will turn up on the shore.
Salaam
Sea actully throws to the shore what does not belong in it, including all the garbage dumped in it.
I often wondered if the child was left in the stream to drift away and lands near Pharoah's palace Then surely he would have worked it out that the child belonged to a family comdemned to death by him as he was not a stupid man. But if by the command of Allah his basket comes adrift off shore than its unlikely he would have suspected that it did not belong to his own people. hmm -
- The ?Misr? of Joseph (P) - The Great Storage System.
The first mention of the word "misr" the Quran occurs in the story of the Prophet Joseph (P), in Chapter 12. And the first clue as to what this ?misr? is, comes to us in the following verse
{One among them said "Do not kill Joseph, but if you are going to do a thing, then cast him into the bottom of the well, so that any travelling caravan will pick him up.}...
This tells us that Jacob (P) and his children lived close to a trade route, since they KNEW for certain that a caravan would pass and pick Joseph up, and then they would be rid of him forever (or so they thought). So they dropped him in a well that stood on this route.
Now the question is Where did Jacob live?
The Quran gives us a clue to this in 1216
{And they came back to their father, in the evening, crying}...
This tells us that the distance separating Jacob?s home from the trade route wasn?t very far, since the children (the jealous brothers of Joseph) returned home in the evening, after having thrown Joseph in the well, that same day.
After having done the deed, we come to the following key event{And a traveling caravan came and they sent their man to draw water, but when he drew he said "Good news, there is a boy!" So they hid him as merchandise. And God is aware of what they did}...
As the jealous brothers had planned, a caravan did eventually pass by, stopped at the well for a drink, and lo and behold! They found a boy down at the bottom.
Now, the terms ?Good News? and ?Merchandise? shows the nature of those who picked him up from the well. These people were merchants on a trade trip, and this was their lucky day. Their hands fell on free human inventory.
{And they sold him for a low price, a few darahim, and they regarded him as insignificant}...
The selling of Joseph for a cheap price, as the Quran tells us, indicates that the merchants sold him at the nearest opportunity they could, and this for two reasons
1- To be rid of the expenses necessary to sustain the boy (food, drink, and encumbrance of carrying living merchandise).
2- The boy was acquired for free, so the ?business mentality? dictated that they offer him for sale at the nearest and soonest opportunity, before the expense became more than the income of the sale.
What does this tell us? It tells us that there is not a chance in Hell that Joseph could have remained in the possession of the merchants the whole distance between Palestine and Egypt, as the ?translators? of the Torah (The Great ?Imams? of FORGERY) claimed.
They sold the boy at the nearest market on the trade route, and were done with him. And this was what the brothers of Joseph had not counted on. It didn?t occur to the children of Jacob (P) that Joseph would not end up very far from them, geographically.
Now the question is Where did the merchants sell Joseph?
Let?s read on?
{And he who had bought him from "misr" said to his wife "Make his stay generous, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son." And it was thus that We established Joseph in the land and to teach him the interpretation of the narrations. And God has full control over his situation, but most of the people do not know}...
From the context of the above verse, we can see that they put him up for sale in a place which the Quran calls ?misr?; wherein some man (the buyer) came there from his own village, to make the purchase. How is that so? The verse clearly says that the man bought him ?FROM MISR?, which means that the place of purchase differed from the home village of the man. Had it been otherwise (i.e. had the place of purchase been the man?s village itself), the verse would not have added ?from misr?. It would have simply said ?And he who had bought him said to his wife...?.
Now please note that there is a very glaring mistake made by the FM translation, and I'm not so sure it was intentional. The verse does NOT say that the buyer was from Misr. It says the man bought him FROM Misr. (i.e the purchase was made there). There is HUGE difference in the meaning.
Hence, from our rendering of the verse, we can see that the man came to ?misr? from his village, bought the boy for a cheap price, then went back to his village, and asked his wife to take care of the boy.
This gives us a clue as to how the trade routes of ancient Arabia functioned. Obviously, they did not branch to pass through EVERY village. The merchants would empty their cargo in certain stations placed at intervals along those trade routes. As for the villages where the people lived, they were located some distance from main the trade route, and could be reached by following secondary paths branching off from the main route. This is exactly where Jacob?s tented village was located. His children left their father?s home in the morning, went down to the main trade route, tossed Joseph in the well, then returned home in the evening. Which means the trade route did not pass through Jacob?s village.
Now, this leads us to investigate a bit the nature of these stations, which were located at intervals along the trade routes. What exactly were they?
These stations were actually places that constituted not only markets for trade, but also rest and service stops for the caravans, and places where the traders could meet with the inhabitants of the nearby towns and mingle with them. They were also places where the inhabitants of the villages could sell their own goods (pottery, crops, or offer service labor). It is a fact that the trade caravans could not afford to burden themselves with supplies (food and water), as those would take up too much precious space ? space that could be used to carry profitable goods for trade instead. So, they relied on such ?stations? to provide the services they needed. This is one of the many ways how Arabia became fabulously rich during that age.
Is there any trace of such stations in Egypt? NONE. Goods in Egypt were carried mostly by BOATS along the Nile. Even the stones used to build the pyramids were carried along the Nile, from the rock quarries to the construction sites, as the illustrations and murals of the pyramids themselves have shown. (The Egyptians used an advanced system that relied on buoyancy to effectively ?cancel? out the weight of the stones).
Check out the following link
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhr7PHwNP98&feature=related
Are there traces of such trade routes or stations in ancient Palestine? NONE.
Let?s continue?
Now some of these stations became so strategically important, either due to the fact that they were located on the intersection of several trade routes, or because they were surrounded by many villages, hence providing them with large markets. These important urban centers were called ?amsar? (the plural of ?misr?), which is a common Arabic noun.
And Jacob?s village was not very far from one of those urban centers.Then the years go by, and the Quran relates to us the story of what happened to Joseph (P) how he was accused of a crime he didn?t commit, how he was jailed, and how he made some friends, and eventually rose to a high station in that land. He became a kind of councilor for the ruler, whom the Quran refers to as ?malik? (NOT PHAROAH). There is NO mention of ?Pharoah? whatsoever in the story of Joseph, whom the Quran tells us had the ability to interpret dreams.
And we have seen already, if you scroll up to the previous posts, how Joseph interpreted a dream concerning the 7 cows and 7 pods, and warned the people of a coming drought, due to lack of rain. I showed you that the land Joseph lived in depended on seasonal RAIN for raising crops, which is completely unlike the geography of Egypt, as I mentioned. He lived in a country where they had wells for storing rainwater (That?s why Joseph was found in a well).
How much rain does the Nile valley receive per year? 2 inches at best.
Egypt relied ? and still does - on irrigation from the Nile for its agriculture. Not rain.
We eventually learn, from the Quran, that Joseph asked the malik to let him manage all the affairs of the storage system in the ?misr? (trade station), for the next 7 years, in preparation for the coming drought. And the king, understanding Joseph?s wisdom and visions, accepted Joseph's offer.
{He said "Appoint me over the granaries of the land, for I know how to keep records and I am knowledgeable."}...
What Joseph did was that he organized a complex system not only for the storing of the grains and crops (which are perishable), but also to protect from theft, and to oversee the division of rations during the years of drought. This no doubt required vast resources, and a complex logistical effort, not to mention convincing the farmers to give up a large portion of their product, every year, in order to store it (rather than selling it).
This project required the building of silos for the storage of grains, as well as walls around the station (?misr?), turning it into a veritable citadel, having several doors or gates.
Yet Joseph knew he was up to the challenge, so he asked the "malik" (ruler) to appoint him for this task.
And then came the years of drought. And ALL the people in the surrounding region felt the effects of this drought, including Jacob and his children, who were also in the same geographical region affected by the same lack of rainfall. This of course is completely contradictory to the criminal Septuagint ?translation? of the Torah, which claims that Jacob was in Palestine, while Joseph was in EGYPT!! (Note how they scatter the prophets over vast regions of the world, separating father from son by thousands of kilometers. They did the same with Abraham as well, when they separated his children into two lineages, one in Palestine and the other in Arabia). Whereas all these events took place in the same geographical region The mountain slopes of Asir, in south west Arabia, and along the trade routes.
Anyway, Joseph?s successful system of storage management not only saved his village, but made the nearby citadel (the ?misr?), a prime destination for the people of the land. And among those were Joseph?s brothers, who came to the citadel, after all those years of being separated from their brother.
{And the brothers of Joseph came and entered upon him, and he recognized them, but they did not recognize him}...
By that time, Joseph had of course become the new ?Aziz? of "misr", and reported directly to the Malik. And it is clear that he was in direct charge of managing the distribution of the reserves, and meeting all kinds of people face to face. This also could not have been possible in Egypt, whose protocols showed huge royal courts, and the servants of their KING to number in the thousands, not to mention his viziers, war generals, and guard battalions rivaling in size those of Rome and Persia. To imagine a bunch of Bedouins (Joseph?s brothers) casually strolling into the home of the highest official of ancient Egypt, with the ease that we read about in Joseph?s story, is out of the question. This is another proof that the events did not take place in Egypt.
The proof that Joseph?s brothers were Bedouins is found in the following (I have left the word untrsanslated, so Arabic readers can verify for themselves)
{And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they fell in prostration to Him. And he said "My father, this is the interpretation of my vision from before. My Lord has made it true, and He has been good to me that he took me out of prison and brought you out of the ?Badou? after the devil had made bitterness between me and my brothers. My Lord is Kind to whom He wills. He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise}...
You are still not convinced that ?misr? is not Egypt?
Well then, please explain this
{And he said "My sons, do not enter from one gate, but enter from separate gates; and I cannot avail you anything against God, for the judgment is to God. In Him I place my trust, and in Him those who place their trust should trust."}...
Jacob is advising his children not to enter ?misr? from the SAME GATE. But to enter it from different gates, so as not to attract attention to themselves.
Answer me this question Was Egypt surrounded by a wall, and had several gates leading into it?
Where in the world are we, brothers and sisters? Where has our logic gone?
Putting up a wall and various gates is only possible in fortified towns (CITADELS), and not around entire lands or geographical regions! The only exception to this that the world has ever known is the Great Wall, which surrounds China, and is considered one of the 7 great wonders of the world!
Just imagine ? for the sake of debate ? that the entire land of Egypt (since you are insisting that ?misr? = Egypt) was walled, and had gates. What?s the point of Jacob?s warning to his sons that they should enter from different gates? nothing.. IT would be pointless, because the geographical expanse is so huge that they will not even see each other anyway!
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Citadel.jpg
An imaginary illustration of what the "misr" of Joseph looked like.
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Wall.jpg
The Great Wall of China. Has anyone ever seen such a wall surrounding Egypt?
Finally, we come to another piece of glaring evidence that ?misr? is not Egypt. And it is here that you must be very careful and accurate in your reading.
After all was forgiven and no holds barred, we get to the following (I am using the FM translation as it is, without any changes)
{They said "Our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, indeed we were wrongdoers * He said "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord; He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.* So when they entered upon Joseph, he took his parents to him and he said "Enter Egypt, God willing, in security.}?
The problem is that the FM translators had the pre-conception that Joseph lived in EGYPT itself. It is a pre-conceived belief that the EGYPT he lived in and the place he told his parents to enter in security is the one and same place!!
This is completely false, as the rendering of the verse becomes absurd.
How many times did they enter ?Egypt?? Twice? Why did Joseph tell them ?Enter Egypt, God willing, in security? if they have already entered it, as teh verse clearly says?
The truth of the matter is that Joseph told his BROTHERS to enter ?misr?, the trade citadel which was NEAR the village where Joseph lived, and NOT the village ITSELF. There are TWO separate places here! There is the village where Joseph lived, which was located on the mountain slopes, in a high altitude, and lived off the agriculture (which depended on rain), and then there was the trade citadel, which was located on the lower slopes, to make it easier for the caravans to reach it. This was the walled trade citadel that had all the silos for storage, as well as the market and the caravan service center.
So when they (his parents and brothers) came to him IN HIS VILLAGE, he brought his parents (who were old) to him, providing them sanctuary in his village, then told his BROTHERS (who were younger and physically able) to enter the nearby citadel (?misr?), in security. What Joseph wanted was to transform the life of his brothers from bedouism and sheep herding to a life of commerce and trade.
Our rendering of the verse is as such
{So when they entered upon Joseph (in his village), he gave his parents sanctuary, and said (to his brothers) "Enter the citadel Allah willing, in security}?.
And that?s the whole truth of the matter.
MISR = A TRADE CITADEL. It's plural form is "AMSAR". It is a common noun, and has nothing to do with Egypt (Al-Qibt) whatsoever.
Conclusion
From all we have seen so far, we can say that the village where Joseph lived, and its neighboring citadel were two SEPARATE places, and they were both not far from the tented village where his father, Jacob, originally lived. And Jacob?s village, in turn, was not far from where his fathers Isaac and Abraham had settled before him. From this, we deduce that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph all lived and died in the land of Asir, the hub of the trade routes, and the most fertile region in all of Arabia. They all lived in what the Quran calls ?Al-Qura? (the TOWNS), where Muhamad would later preach Allah?s final scripture to humanity, in what the Quran calls ?Umm-ul-Qura? (The Mother of the Towns).
And this ?Mother of the Towns? was surely not Mecca, as you will soon deduce by yourselves. And I will tell you what it was in time?
- The "Misr" of Moses - The Rise of Far3oun, and Escape from the Citadel
To be continued....
Peace.
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Conclusion
From all we have seen so far, we can say that the village where Joseph lived, and its neighboring citadel were two SEPARATE places, and they were both not far from the tented village where his father, Jacob,
Hello Pazuzu, It seems you are forcing yourself to link everything to Arabia.. I have to say that there are many drawbacks in your view. You are missing some very important things.. If Jacob's land (Joseph's native land) was not so far from Misr, why Joseph didn't visit his father even if his father gone blind in absence of himself? Joseph was a very important person in Misr, then it was not a big deal of finding and visiting his father. Actually, Jacob's land was much more far away from Joseph even Joseph hadn't any idea of location. This is how drought made them came together again. This is one of main aspects of whole story.
Regards.
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The verse clearly says that the man bought him ?FROM MISR?, which means that the place of purchase differed from the home village of the man. Had it been otherwise (i.e. had the place of purchase been the man?s village itself), the verse would not have added ?from misr?. It would have simply said ?And he who had bought him said to his wife...?.
Now please note that there is a very glaring mistake made by the FM translation, and I'm not so sure it was intentional. The verse does NOT say that the buyer was from Misr. It says the man bought him FROM Misr. (i.e the purchase was made there). There is HUGE difference in the meaning.
Hence, from our rendering of the verse, we can see that the man came to ?misr? from his village, bought the boy for a cheap price, then went back to his village, and asked his wife to take care of the boy.
Peace Pazuzu,
You claim the buyer traveled to MSR, purchased him there, and took him to his village which contradicts ?
1221 and said the one who bought him from Egypt to his woman/wife
7127 and said the chiefs from nation/tribe Pharaoh you leave Moses and his nation/tribe to cause corruption in the earth and forsake you and your gods said we will kill their sons and will let live their women/females and indeed over them subjugators
4028 and said a man believing from family Pharaoh
Were they from nation/tribe Pharaoh or not?
How much rain does the Nile valley receive per year? 2 inches at best.
Egypt relied ? and still does - on irrigation from the Nile for its agriculture. Not rain.
This was already addressed in prior posts...
1247 said you will plant seven years as usual so what you harvest so leave it in its ears only/except little from what you eat 1248 furthermore comes from after that seven severe eat/consume what you advanced for them only/except little from what you stored 1249 furthermore comes from after that Aam (season?) in it will be given the mankind and in it they will press
4351 and called Pharaoh in his nation/tribe said O tribe is not to me king Egypt and these the springs/pools/canals flow from beneath do they not see
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_QJm_THOfuR0/TG5-mY9oyiI/AAAAAAAAAAM/ul7clXKW3TQ/s400/1790-landscape_Egypt.jpg
Jacob is advising his children not to enter ?misr? from the SAME GATE. But to enter it from different gates, so as not to attract attention to themselves.
Answer me this question Was Egypt surrounded by a wall, and had several gates leading into it?
Where in the world are we, brothers and sisters? Where has our logic gone?
1267 and said O children not you enter from gate one
Of course not; where is MSR in the above verse? Obviously they were entering a main city within the land.
What city/town were these women in?
1230 and said women in the city woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself thus infatuated her love indeed surely see her in error clear
How many times did they enter ?Egypt?? Twice? Why did Joseph tell them ?Enter Egypt, God willing, in security? if they have already entered it, as teh verse clearly says?
Why do people say welcome?
1299 so when they entered on Joseph he took to him his parents and said enter Egypt if He wills The God safe
MISR = A TRADE CITADEL. It's plural form is "AMSAR". It is a common noun, and has nothing to do with Egypt (Al-Qibt) whatsoever.
Yes prefix alif denotes plural for many words e.g. ashr/lunar cycles and trailing alif denote similar to how "for" is used in English as in 261 descend for msra/Egypt or 2914 only (for) fifty Aama although the plural amsr never appears in Qur'an.
Peace
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Thank you Pazuzu for the latest post!
It seems so logical and obvious to me!
And much, far much better to follow and understand the narrative of the Qur'an!Please do continue.
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Salaam
It is all in Allah's plan why Yussuf(p) did not visit his father and why it was not until the very end that Yaqoob(p) could smell Youssuf, but we can easily deduce from the Qura'n the comings and goings of the brothers of Youssuf and especially the last person who went back to Yaqoob(p) while Youssuf held his brother indicate that they were not very distant from each other.
To Pazuzu
And this ?Mother of the Towns? was surely not Mecca
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When I heard that the authorities of Saudi Arabia were erasing all "tourist attreactions" held to be places that Prophet Mohammad used to visit especially at a time when DNA and Archaeology became well known methods for varification I wondered their motive behind it hmm -
Salam,
I am surprized that this thread still carries traction.
That "Misr" is still being debates as some area in Yemen is beyond logic.
Slaam Layth
I am surprised that you started this subject back in 2003 and wonder why you left it in the middle this seems beyond logic to me hmm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7301.0
peace -
Dear Nomad.
That article does not fit PERFECTLY with what I'm saying. If you've read it thoroughly, you will note that it makes some far-fetched claims. Among those claims was that there was a giant river in Arabia called "Al-Phorat", and that the Euphrates of Iraq was later named after it. This is absolutely outrageous.
YES, there was indeed a giant river which flowed from the Surat mountains (The Heights) and reached as far as Mesopotamia. In fact, I can show you satelite images of the gigantic river bed it left behind after it dried up. This river must have been wider than the Nile of Egypt. But there is NO PROOF that it was ever called "AL-Phorat".
Secondly, Abraham was NOT in the Hijaz, as the article claims. They have pushed the events and the gepgraphy a little too far north, because they wanted to validate the "Holiness" of Mecca. 90% of the proofs they used are conjectural, and rely too much on Hadiths. (You will note this as you read the article).
However, there is some truth in what they are saying (especially concerning the issue of EGYPT = QIBT and not "Misr".
Anyway, it's good that you are searching for the truth. You have to take the initiative, in order for Allah to guide you.
It's about time we awoke from the darkness of the Zionist deception.
Peace and blessings.
(I still need 2 more posts to finish this thread).
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- The "misr" of Moses (P) - Rise of Far3oun and Escape from the Citadel
Allah tells us that Far3oun?s trade citadel had MANY rivers near it (not just one); whereas Joseph?s area suffered from a 7-year drought, due to lack of rain.
{And Far3oun proclaimed among his people "O my people, do I not possess the kingship of a citadel, and these rivers that flow below me? Do you not see?"
This leads us to ask the question Were Moses and Joseph in the same area? It is possible that they weren't, since the word ?misr? indicates a walled citadel, and that there could be many such citadels (?amsar?) and not one. So how can we be sure?
Let?s see what the Quran says. It is there, as always, where we will find the answer which exposes those who have forged our history. Please pay attention to the underlined phrases
{And a believing man from among the people of Far3oun, who had concealed his belief, said "Will you kill a man simply because he is saying 'My Rabb is Allah' and he has come to you with proofs from your Rabb? And if he is a liar, then his lie will be upon him, and if he is truthful, then some of what he is promising you will afflict you. For Allah does not guide any transgressor, or liar * O my people, you have the kingship today throughout the land. But then who will save us against the torment of Allah, should it come to us?". Far3oun said "I am showing you that which I see, and I am guiding you in the right path" * And the one who believed said "O my people, I fear for you the same fate as the Day of the Opponents * Like the fate of the people of Noah, Aad, and Thamud, and those after them. And Allah does not wish any injustice for the servants * And, O my people, I fear for you the Day of Mutual Blaming * A Day when you will turn around and flee, you will have no protector besides Allah, and whoever Allah sends astray, then there is none who can guide him * And Joseph had come to you before with proofs, but you remained in doubt regarding what he came to you with, until when he died, you said 'Allah will not send any messenger after him'. It is such that Allah sends astray he who is a transgressor, a doubter"}...
Where did these events take place? The man is reminding the people of the example of what happened to the nations who came before them, in the SAME REGION!! He is reminding them of the fate of the people of Noah, Ad and Thamud. Where were those nations located? In Egypt?
WAKE UP!!
From the above verses it is also clear that Joseph (P) had been sent before, to the ancestors of Far3oun?s people. This is proof that they were in the same citadel. So then how can a land dry up for 7 years if it had rivers, as Far3oun was boasting?
It seems that we have misunderstood the meaning of the word ?nahr? (river) in the Quran. Usually, when we think of the word ?river?, we tend to think only of permanent rivers, whose source is underground basins or huge lakes (like the Amazon, the Nile, the Euphrates, and other such rivers that do not dry up). But this absolutely false, because not all rivers ?anhar? are like that. Some rivers, both small and large, rely on the rain and snow which melts from the mountaintops in order to flow continuously. If the rain should stop for 7 years, the rivers will fade into oblivion, leaving only their trace in the valleys and mountain slopes.
Has anyone ever heard of the Nile drying up? How many proofs do you people need that the events did not take place in Egypt?
These events took place in a MOUNTAINOUS landscape where hundreds of rivers and streams cascaded from the mountains, fed with rainwater or melting snow (YES, there IS snow on the highest peaks of Arabia, and I will soon show you photos of their white peaks).
In fact, if you go to the region of Asir (?3asir? ? the word means, literally ?difficult land?) in the south of Saudi Arabia, you will see lakes that form from the joining of many of these streams and rivers which come down from the mountains. And in some particularly rainy years, their waters can be extremely plentiful. This is why the Saudis have built many dams in the area today, notably around the valley of Beesha area (see the photo below).
So, from this we can conclude that the rivers (in plural) which Far3oun was boasting of were not the PERMANENT type rivers (like the Nile and its delta branches). They were rivers that could dry up after long years of drought. And that?s exactly what had happened in Joseph?s time.
On the other hand, the Quran tells us that the land where these events took place also had what it called a ?bahr? , which Far3oun drowned in. Again, this leads to the question concerning our understanding of the word ?bahr?. Does it necessarily mean ?sea??
It appears, from the Quran that this is not so. In fact the Quran tells us that there are salty ?bahrs? as well as fresh water ?bahrs?. As in {2553} and {3512}
What the word actually means is just any natural body that has plentiful water. It could be a lake, a river, a sea, or an ocean.
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Bisha.jpg
The damn of Malik Fahd in Beesha Valley , which stores rainwater coming from the top of the mountains, and forming a huge artificial lake.
So who was this Far3oun then? And what was he boasting of?
This tyrant entered the scene at the time of Moses. The Quran calls only ONE person by that title ?Far3oun?. And this title was EXCLUSIVELY for the tyrant who persecuted Moses and the Israelites. There was no Far3oun before him, and none came after he drowned. (Remember There was only ONE king of England who was labeled ?Longshank?, and that was King Edward. Watch the movie Braveheart, and you?ll know who he is. There were no ?Longshanks? before or after him). During the time of Joseph (estimated to be some 150 ? 200 years before Moses at most), there was no Far3oun. There was the ?malik? and his immediate subordinate ?the Aziz? (who managed the citadel). And this ?malik? was very kind to Joseph, and made him occupy a high station. Moses(P), on the other hand, was not so lucky.
It is worth mentioning here, that Moses (P) was actually raised in Far3oun?s home, by none other than Far3oun?s wife! The Quran says this very clearly
{And We inspired to Moses' mother "Suckle him, and when you become fearful for him, then cast him off in the yamm, and do not fear nor grieve. We will return him to you and We will make him of the messengers. * Then the family of Far3oun picked him up, so he would be an enemy to them and a source of sadness. Certainly, Far3oun and Haamaan and their troops were wrongdoers * And the wife of Far3oun said "A pleasure to my eye and yours, so do not kill him, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son;" while they did not perceive.}...
So this means that they must have spoken the same language; a fact that has completely slipped past 99.99% of Muslims, who read the Quran like zombies. The Quran tells us of direct conversations between Far3oun and Moses, without a translator. What language did they speak? Is there any record in Egypt of ?Pharoah? speaking what is called ?Hebrew?? Or did the Israelites speak ancient Egyptian?
There is something just so WRONG about what we have always thought to be the unquestionable truth. However you try to add it up, or turn it over, it just doesn?t fit. It doesn?t fit because it is merging two cultures together from across the Red sea. I hope someday you will wake up from this delusion.
The last verse we will discuss that mentions ?misr? in the story of Moses is the following
{And you said "O Moses, we will not be patient to one type of food, so call for us your Rabb that He may bring forth what the earth grows of its beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said "Would you trade that which is lowly with that which is good?" Go down to a citadel, you will have in it what you have asked for. And they were stricken with humiliation and disgrace, and they remained under the wrath of Allah for they were disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and killing the prophets without right; this is for what they have disobeyed and transgressed.}...
They asked Moses to provide them with all these foods, which grew in different seasons!! So what was Moses? answer to them? "Go down to a citadel, and you will find what you want therein". Why a citadel? Because the things they were asking for could only be found in the markets or the storage vaults of the trade citadels.
8 ) How Many Were The Children of Israel?
According to the Torah itself (see Exodus 1 5) , the descendants of Jacob totaled 70 in number. Now if we assumed that Jacob was Israel himself (even though the Quran distinguishes between Jacob and Israel) this will lead us to a very important question
If the original number of Isrealites that migrated to the land of the Citadels was 70, then how on Earth could they reach 600,000 in just FOUR generations?
Has anyone ever thought of that? Don?t the ?traditions? tell us that Moses was the son of Amran, son of Qaheth, son of Azar, son of Levi, son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham? This basically means that Moses was the grandson of the grandson of Jacob. This means that no more than 150 years could have passed between the time of Jacob and the time of Moses (assuming each generation is around 37 years ? and that?s stretching it). How did a small, microscopic tribe of goat herders, originally numbering 70 individuals, become 600,000 in a span of 150 years? What kind of nonsense is this, brothers and sisters?
Let?s do the math If we assume that each generation is 25 years (rather than 37), where 25 was (back then) the average age of establishing a family, this means than no more than 6 generations could have passed between Jacob and Moses. And lets stretch it very very far, and say that their number increased by a net of 50% after each generation (after taking into consideration deaths from disease, or Far3oun's persecution). What this means is that they multiplied as follows
- End of first generation 105
- End of second generation 158
- End of third generation 237
- End of fourth generation 356
- End of fifth generation 534
- End of sixth generation 640
The CHildren of Israel could not have numbered far over 600 people by the end of six generations, or they would be defying the laws of reproduction.
But someone wants to insult our intelligence by claiming that the number of Israelites who escaped from ?EGYPT? was 600,000!! Could it be, perhaps, that the Septuagint priests, in their ?translation? of the Torah from Aramaic to Greek, decided to add three zeros to the real figure?
600,000? Really? Is this the SAME group which ?Far3oun? HIMSELF described as {These are but a small band}, , before he and his men when in pursuit of them, as the Quran says?
Do we believe the Quran, or do we believe the Imams of Forgery?
And it gets even better! In (Exodus ? 115),, we read the comical story that the King of Egypt himself, Ramses II, became so worried by the ?vigorous fertility? of ?Hebrew? women, and the rapid multiplication of the Israelites, that he asked two ?Hebrew? midwives, named Shiphrah and Puah, to kill all newborn ?Hebrew? boys and to let the girls live, so the King could ?keep track of their number and keep it under control!? (Applause and drums, please).
What kind of crap is that? Are we to believe that a microscopic tribe of goat herders became, in just 6 generations, an entire ?nation? which shook the very throne of Ramses?
And to add further insult to injury, we must believe that these 600 people (half of whom were probably women, children and elderly), built THREE pyramids in the Giza area of Egypt, before fleeing with Moses across the Red Sea into Arabia, after God made for them a 200 km-long trench across (as one version of the story claims) or that they crossed the Sea of Reeds into Sinai, the peninsula which every archeological evidence has proven that it was under FULL Egyptian control by 1300 B.C - 1250 B.C , which means that they fled FROM EGYPT TO EGYPT (as another version of the story claims).
Has it ever occurred to anyone on the face of this Earth to ask why there is ZERO mention of pyramids in the entire Old Testament? Did it accidentally "slip" the minds of the Septuagint priest to mention those structure?
Until when are we going to be slaves to this delusion?
This explains why the officials in what is called "The Arab Republic of Misr? became so enraged when Menahem Began , the first Prime Minister of Israel ever to visit the Republic in 1979, gazed upon the pyramids and said ?These are the work of our grandfathers?. And of course, they would be enraged. And do you know why? It is because they have shackeld themselves up with the chains of the fake identity of ?Misri?. And until they wake up and realize that they are ?QIBTY? (Egyptian), and not ?Misri?, until they wipe the dirt and dust of the Septuagint lies off their shoulders, vindicate their ancient Kings from the falsehoods that ruined their reputation, clear themselves from the false title of ?Pharoahs?, and look upon their true and glorious history through their OWN eyes, not through the eyes of others, only then wull they wake up from this lie.
And now,, dear brothers and sisters, we will place our finger on the spider web ; on the very den of the mother of all delusions, to show you the exact, precise point from which this great lie sprang into being.
9 ) The Source of the Delusion
To Be Continued (Very Soon)....
Peace..
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Surprising and very pleasant. A non Arab comprehending Arabic of Qur'aan so well. There is absolutely no mention of RAIN in the Ayah quoted.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/012.%20Yusuf%20alahissalam/12.48.gif
Afterwards, on expiry of these seven years, seven hard/lean years laden with adverse hard circumstances will come which will consume what you had saved/taken advance measures for those years except leaving a little which you had stored.Note the Arabic words, it does not mean "years without rain" that its opposite or antonym could mean "year of rain".
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/012.%20Yusuf%20alahissalam/12.049.gif
Afterwards, on expiry of those seven hard years, there will come a year in which people will be delivered/succoured while they will during that year keep extracting juices/rejoicing"The verb is passive. People is the Proxy subject of the Verb. People suffering hard days, adverse circumstances for long seven years are delivered and succoured.
1243-57
Read about ancient agriculture in Egypt, years of plenty and years of famine. And find what role Nile played. In ancient stories, one may find the prayers, the ceremonies, of the cry, "Hail o river that comest to give life to Egypt".
As to the coment highlighted in orange, I do not think it is right. It would be right if the root were g-w-th. But the root being g-y-th, and Pazuzu is right indeed when he says it mains there was rain.
It can be verified in Lane or any other dictionary.
Salaam
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Salaam Pazuzu
Now it all makes sense when Qur'an mentions about known months of Hajj and Ramadan also ummah of believers addressed in the Qur'an and why Qur'an says Oh children of Israel I gave you superiority over others which could mean they and their area being selected for the holy mission so I guess people who lived there were the children of Israel.
Also name of Omar ibn Khattab keeps popping up, have you done research as to what role he played in all this, its Omar who went to Jerusalem and that when it was acknowledged as Masjid Aqsa.
BTW, I heard that brother of Yusuf formed 12 tribes and dispersed all over the world and Taliban is one of their tribepeace
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As to the coment highlighted in orange, I do not think it is right. It would be right if the root were g-w-th. But the root being g-y-th, and Pazuzu is right indeed when he says it mains there was rain.
It can be verified in Lane or any other dictionary.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
The verses are horribly translated and do not mean rain. Perhaps have a close look at each in context...
1249 yughthu will be given abundance
3134 l-ghaytha the abundance
4228 l-ghaytha the abundance
5720 ghaythin abundance1247 said you will plant seven snyn years as usual so what you harvest so leave it in its ears only/except little from what you eat
1248 furthermore comes from after that seven severe eat/consume what you advanced for them only/except little from what you stored
1249 furthermore comes from after that Aam (season?) in it y-gh--th will be given abundance the mankind and in it they will press3134 indeed The God with Him knowledge the hour and sent down the abundance and knows what in the blood relations and not knows a soul what had he earned tomorrow and not knows a soul for which land it will die indeed The God Knowing Aware
4228 and He the one who He sent down the abundance from after what they despaired and spreads His mercy and He The Guardian The Praiseworthy
No time to address latest Pazuzu's post which again is non factual, hearsay, and careless study.
Peace
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I think the primary meaning as per the dictionaries is the rain. Whether rain brings abundance is something else. And Yusuf Ali does translate rain, in other parts except in that where it says yughathu the people, but even there does say water, and if you check Lane all there is about this root is rain, rain and more rain.
The whole set up of the rivers, rains, uniting of bahrain, (interesting name by the way) shores and all, simply does not suggest Egypt. For each instance to fit it to Egypt, except for the casket with the child, one has to fish for possibilities in order to make it fit Egypt.
And still I think that was there anything simpler than just name the Nile, for instance in the case of the casket with the child, just say, put it in the Nile?
There are also certain possibilities and questions that I have put forward in these threads and which nobody has picked up and which I think are relevant.
As it is the only thing I still consider valid as a possibility that it might be Egypt in spite of the water conflicts is the answer to a question which I have asked somewhere else. Depending on that I still wouldn't say Egypt but might say, there is a possibility that it might be Egypt, althought not the most likely and with a lot of struggle to make it fit.
I think we are hypnotized by what we have absorbed since we are able to absorb anything, and I have seen a lot of offering as proof the very thing that needs to be proved.
Salaam
Salaam