Who Was the Pharoah of Moses

unknownuser

@ Jeffry

So what's your point? I did say, at the start of this thread, that I was posting a summary and translation of an Arabic e-book by the title "Call of the Surat". The link you posted takes you to the orginal Arabic document, which most members here cannot read.

I am doing a favor to non-Arabic speakers, since the original Arabic version is available for FREE, anyway. I never claimed that I came up with these ideas.

If you are bothered by this, I will stop this thread. (That suits me anyway, and saves me all the trouble).

Let's go on now....

Pharoah or Pharoas?

Since the only reliable source of information for Muhamad (P) concerning the identity of Pharoah was the Quran, let us then return to Allah?s scripture and read it carefully, and with reflection. The first thing that strikes us is the fact that the Quran NEVER mentions ?Pharoahs? in the plural form. There was only ONE person, mentioned in the Quran, who went by that name or title, and that person was EXCLUSIVELY the tyrant during Moses? time.

Yet how did the misguided Muslims deal with this truth? They transformed the singular into plural, thus sending the wrong message to their awareness, by using the term ?Pharaos? in the plural, until eventually, it became ?common knowledge? among the masses that there was more than one Pharoah!

So let us read the Quran carefully, and let its verses direct our beliefs, not the other way around. If you go to the search box in the Freeminds Quran translation and type in the word ?Pharaoh? (and by the way the correct spelling is Pharoah, not Pharaoh) it will give you all the Chapters and verses in which this name appears. The word ?Pharoah? appears no less than 50 times in the Quran, and not ONCE does it appear in the plural noun. You can go and check anytime you like.

One of the great delusions of our time is that there were over 100 Pharoahs who ruled Egypt, starting from king Narmer, and ending with Cleopatra. The great catastrophy that we are not aware of is that the Quran completely denies this, and tells us very clearly that after Pharoah and his men drowned, the Israelites eventually inherited the entire land!
Open your eyes and read this

{And We let the people who were weak inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived}?

{So Pharaoh sent gatherers to the cities * "These are but a small band." * "And they have done what has enraged us." * "And we are all gathered and forewarned." * So, We evicted them out of gardens and springs * And treasures and an honorable station * As thus, We made the Children of Israel inherit it}?

What have we here? Something that the Muslims have never paid attention to, unfortunately. The Quran is telling us that the Israelites INHERITED everything that Pharoah left behind! Has anyone in this world ever even heard a passing reference of Bani Israel having inherited or ruled the land of ?Egypt? around 1300 BC? (the presumed date of Moses).

This is why, in the entire Quran, we do not see the name or title ?Pharoah? ever mentioned before or after Moses? time. The proof Go and read Chapter 12 of the Quran, which recounts the story of the Prophet Joseph. Allah?s book ? which the Muslims have thrown behind their backs ? tells us that the title of the ruler of the land during Joseph?s time was ?Al-Malik? (the king). And his assistant was titled ?Al-Aziz? (meaning He Who Has High Station ? or something of the sort). THERE IS NO MENTION OF PHAROAH ANYWHERE DURING JOSEPH?S TIME, even though it is presumed that Joseph came 150-200 years before Moses.

No, my dear brothers and sisters. There was only ONE PHAROAH, and that is EXCLUSIVELY the title of the tyrant who persecuted Moses and his followers. Try to imagine this One of the Kings of England (Edward) was labeled ?Longshank? by the people. (Maybe he had a physical deformity, or his ?arm was long? ? meaning he stole too much from the treasury). Does this mean that ALL the kings of England who came after him must also be called ?Longshanks?, just because one of them bore that title? Of course not! And yet, for some reason, that?s exactly what the Muslims did to the rulers of the place referred to in the Quran as ?misr?. They projected the title of ONE PARTICULAR RULER, ?Pharoah?, to all those who ruled before and after him!! This is a complete fallacy and is a screaming contradiction to what the Quran is telling us. How the Hell could there be other Pharoahs? The man drowned along with his followers, and died, and that?s it.

Where are our brains?
So where do we look for this tyrant then?
Do we look for him in Egypt? Absolutely not. There is ZERO archeological evidence of there ever having been a ?Moses? or ?Israelites? in the land of the Nile. Not one shred of evidence has ever been uncovered to even remotely suggest this.
The next question is

When did Moses (P) live?

Historians can?t really pin-point the exact date. If you read everything that was ever written about this subject, you will find yourself in the range of anywhere between 1500 BC and 1200 BC, with 1250 BC as the approximate date of the Great Exile (as the Jews call it).
So now, let us check out the names of all the rulers of Egypt (since we are assuming Moses was there) in that time period, to see who the possible candidates for Pharoah are. We found that the period coincides with the 18th and 19th Dynasties

Here follows the name of the ruler, his given title as shown in the hieroglyphic writings, (in brackets) and the year of his reign, as is agreed upon by the vast majority of experts on this issue

18th Dynasty

Ahmose I (Neb-Bahti-Ra) 1550 ? 1525 BC
Imhotep I (Jesr-Ka-Ra) 1525 ? 1504 BC
Tahutmose I (Aa-Khabr-Ka-Ra) 1504 BC ? 1492 BC
Tahutmose II (Aa-Khabr-An-Ra) ???? (alternated with his successor)
Tahutmose III (Men-Khabr-Ra) ???? (alternated with his precedor)
Hatshepsut ? queen (Maat ? Kara) 1473 ? 1458 BC
Imhotep II (Aa-Khabro-Ra) 1427 ? 1401 BC
Tahutmose IV (Men-Khabro-Ra) 1401 ? 1391 BC
Imhotep III (Neb-Maat-Ra) 1391 ? 1353 BC
Imhotep IV (Akhnaton) 1353 BC (labeled a madman / started a religious revolution/ didn?t last long)
Nefer Khebro (Wa-An-Ra) 1353 ? 1335 BC
Semenkara (Aankh-Khabro-Ra) 1335 ? 1333 BC (was assassinated)
Tutankhamon (Unknown) 1333 ? 1324 BC (rose to the throne at the age of 9, and died at age 1
Ai (Khabro-Ra) 1323 ? 1319 BC
Hor-Mheb (Jesr-Khabro-Ra) 1319 ? 1307 BC

19th Dynasty

Ramses I (Men-Bahty-Ra) 1306 ? 1307 BC
Seti I (Men-Maat-Ra) 1306 ? 1290 BC
Ramses II (Osir-Maat-Ra-Setep-An-Ra) 1290 ? 1224 BC (#1 Candidate for THE Pharoah)
Merneptah (Ban-Ra-Hotep-Er-Maat) 1224 ? 1214 BC (#2 candidate for THE Pharoah)
Seti II (Osir-Khebro-Ra-Setep-An-Ra) 1214 BC ? 1204 BC
Amonmes (unknown) 1204 (led a short-lived rebellion; didn?t last long)
Septah (unknown) 1204 ? 1198 BC
Towsert ? queen (unknown) 1198 ? 1196 BC

There, you have in front of you the names of more than 20 of Egypt?s rulers, covering a time span of over 300 years, to guarantee that the age of Moses (P) falls within the reign of one of them.
I ask you now Do you see, in the above list of names or titles anything that even remotely resembles the word ?pharaoh?? Can you twist any of the above names or titles to make it into ?pharaoh??
We should note here that the Jews usually point to Ramses II as the most likely candidate for the tyrant who persecuted Moses (P). Do you see in Ramses? name or title (Osir-Maat-Ra-Setep-An-Ra) anything that resembles the word ?pharoah??

In addition, please note that the titles of these rulers, as was discovered from the translation of the Hieroglyphic murals, always carry the meaning of servitude or glorification to their prime deity, ?Ra? (note how the name ?Ra? is common in every one of the titles). So for example, the king of Egypt would be addressed as such Ramses II, Eternal Servant of Ra. Or, for example Seti II , Watchful Eye of Ra, etc? And thes titles always came AFTER the name of the king, not before it. How is it possible that they carried these titles of servitude and glorification to their deity, when the Quran says, from the tongue of Pharoah himself

{And Pharaoh said "O you elites! I have not known of any rabb for you other than me! O Haman, fire-up the mud (clay) and make for me a high platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is one of the liars." }?

And When he says

{I am your supreme rabb} ??

Is the Quran talking about a king of the Nile Valley? Or are we missing something?? Did the Egyptians build their high platforms and lofty temples from mud hardened by fire? Or did they make them from solid stones?
There is only one spot of land on the entire planet that has been known to make skyscrapers from mud, and to have them endure for hundreds of years, and it is not Egypt. Soon I will show you where that land is.

The great Syrian scholar of mythology and ancient religions, Dr. Firas al Sawwah, in his book entitled ?The Torah and Ancient Near East? ? on page 98, says

??As for the date of the Exile, there is a general consensus that it was around 1260 BC, during the time of Ramses II?.However, despite the enormous effort made by archeologists in trying to find a historic basis for this story, they have failed miserably, and the thousands of hieroglyphic texts unearthed in Egypt have remained silent on this event that is so central and paramount in the Torah?To even think that 600,000 persecuted slaves escaped through the delta area and made their way across any body of water towards the Sinai desert, where they succeeded in causing the ?Pharoah? himself to drown, and that the records of that period ? which is considered the most richly and intricately documented period in the history of Egypt ? did not mention ANYTHING about such an event, is out of the question?.

The Exile from Egypt is a myth. It never happened.

What is even more shocking is the following fact There is absolutely no proof ? and I mean ZERO PROOF ? that the title of ?Pharoah? was ever used to describe the rulers of Egypt!! That?s right, brothers and sisters. You heard it right. If you review the names and titles of ALL the rulers of united Egypt, from King Narmer in 3020 BC, all the way to the year 332 BC when the Greeks conquered Egypt, you will not find a single trace of the word ?Pharoah? ANYWHERE in Egypt. Not on the walls of the temple?not on the murals of the pyramids?not in the papyrus documents or diplomatic letters sent to and from Egypt?NOT ANYWHERE doe the title ?Pharoah? exist in Egypt.

The people of Egypt did not name their rulers ?Pharoah?. Moreover, that word doesn?t even fit with the phonetics of the ancient Egyptian tongue. It is totally ALIEN to their culture. This word was hijacked and forced into ancient Egyptian culture by means of a great forgery which we will soon expose to you. The modern experts in the field of hieroglyphics tried in vain, for many long years, to find even one word in the political protocols of Egypt that is anywhere close to the word ?Pharoah? which appears in the Torah, until finally, after some agonizing efforts, they found a single, orphan solution to the problem. In fact, this solution was the accomplishment of one man, a scholar by the name of James Henry, who claimed the following

?And so, as the years passed, the Egyptian people began to call the government ?The Great House?. Then, eventually, it became the title of the king. And this title, in their ancient language, was pronounced ?br-aa?. And the Israelis later on adopted it as ?Pharoah??and how numerous were the symbolic and figurative adjectives that the subjects of the Egyptian court used to describe their king!?

There you have it folks! The origin of the corruption.
Are you convinced by Mr. Henry?s claim?

The claim that the compound hieroglyphic expression ?br-aa? (meaning the Great House or Great Court) was the origin of the word Pharoah is not only false (which is why most objective academics have rejected it), but is also plain comical and downright ridiculous, as we will soon prove. The goal of Mr. Henry and others of his ilk, in propagating this lie, was to force the word ?Pharoah? into the culture of the ancient Egyptians, at any cost and by any means, in order to give historic credence to the claim that the events described in the Torah took place in Egypt.
On this occasion, I would like to address the Muslims, who claim that they resort to the Quran for guidance by saying If you accept the twisted logic of Mr. Henry, then you have to accept that when Allah told Moses (P)

{Go to Pharoah, for he has transgressed}?

Allah actually meant to say ?Go to the Great House, for he has transgressed?.
Are you confortable with this conclusion dear readers?

The truth of the matter is that the word ?Pharoah? , which appears in the Quran as ?Far?oun? (exact transliteration Far3oun) is NOT the ?Hebrew? nor the Greek translation for ?br-aa?. It is nothing but a sad, and pathetic attempt to force the word ?Pharoah? into the culture of the Egyptians, for reasons that will soon become apparent to you.

You want more evidence that the title doesn?t exist?

Why don?t we take a look at some translated Hieroglyphic cartouches, to see how the ancient Egyptian speech was actually pronounced, in order to see if the word ?br-aa? appears anywhere in the mention of the king. The following is a table which shows the translation of several cartouches, as examined on the pyramid murals, all of which mention the king. You will note that the cartouches have two words in common Hor (which is an allusion to Horus-Ra, their main deity), and Tetti which denotes the ?king?. I will show you the sentence in English, followed by the transliteration (actual pronunciation) in parenthesis.

Cartouche 563/A

?The mouth of the King is as incense, and the lips of the King are as myrrh? (djed merdu re en teti em senetjer sepeti teti em onetiu)

Cartouche 563 / B

?Descend, O King, to the field of your mate, Ka. To the field of your servants? (hhai teti em sekhet ka eke er sekhet hetep)

Cartouche 563 / C

?The food of the King is like the food on the ship of the god? (noret khefat net teti mi netjer depet)

Cartouche 564 / A

?The reign of the King is more than a year, and his servants more plenty than the Nile? (onekh teti ir renepet aut teti er hep)

Cartouche 609 / A

?O, King Osir, rise. Hor has come, and He calls you among the gods? (djed merdu usir teti pu oho ere k heru ip ef tju em o netjeru en tju heru).

Do you see the word ?Pharaoh? appearing on any of these cartouches?

Still not convinced? You think this is my own opinion? Here?s a few links you might want to check out

http//ashraf62.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/ancient-egypt-had-no-pharaohs-2/

http//www.aldokkan.com/society/pharaoh.htm
(read what it says in the 6th row of the table, under ?Titles?)

Dear brothers and sisters I promise you that in years to come, more and more scientists and archeologists will come and have the courage to speak, and to expose one of the greatest delusions that humanity has ever known. The truth is beginning to dawn as we speak, and the awakening has begun.

Egypt had KINGS and QUEENS. It did NOT have ?Pharoahs?.

So now we come to the critical question Just what does the word mean?

Since I have shown you, in my response to member Noon dhe plume, that the Quran contains only Arabic words, and does not borrow ANYTHING from other languages, I will now tell you what the word ?Far3oun? actually means. If you are a native Arabic speaker, prepare yourself for the shock of your life

The word "Far3oun" is made up of the root + the suffix . Now if you go and open the old Arabic lexicons, and look up the meaning of the word ?Far3? , you will get

Far3 (verb) to lead the people or head the community
Far3 (noun) That which is high or standing tall.

The suffix ?oun? used in Arabic to denote something small, or to belittle something.
Like for example Abd-Abdoun (a small ?adb?). Saad-Saadoun (a small ?saad?). Hamad-Hamdoun (a small ?hamad?). It is used mostly as a nickname for children. FOr example, if a kid is named "Zayd" , he gets the playful title "Zaydoun" (which means, mini Zayd, or small Zayd).

But when used for an adult, and in a certain context, it can be demeaning and derogatory. And that is EXACTLY how the Quran meant it to be.

The word ?Far3oun? is not a ?Hebrew? or a Greek term. It is a 100% genuine Arabic word, which means ?Little Chief? or ?Small Leader?. In its essence, it is a demeaning and belittling title given to that tyrant, and has absolutely nothing to do with ?br-aa? (the Great House), and NOTHING to do with Egypt.

The events did not take place in the Nile country. WAKE UP FROM YOUR DELUSION.

?Far3oun? is the title given by the Quran to ONE and ONLY ONE person The chief or ?boss? of a fortified trade citadel, who persecuted Moses(P) and the Israelites.

And in time, I will show you where these events took place?

Peace....

jeffry

Salam Pazuzu,

In the first place, i was not bothered by your article, in fact i found it very interesting and am anxiously waiting for u to continue, and also your continuation on the other thread about Muhammad. Hence i cant figure out why your reply has a negative overtone.

by the way, i did post a 2nd link to the article which is in english. and the article is abt Misr NOT being Egypt.

Well anyway, carry on.

Peace

unknownuser

Salam Pazuzu,

In the first place, i was not bothered by your article, in fact i found it very interesting and am anxiously waiting for u to continue, and also your continuation on the other thread about Muhammad. Hence i cant figure out why your reply has a negative overtone.

by the way, i did post a 2nd link to the article which is in english. and the article is abt Misr NOT being Egypt.

Well anyway, carry on.

Peace

Fair enough.

However, I do not agree with what that original article says concerning the birth place of Abraham (P). I don't believe that Abraham (P) was born in, or had anything to do with Mecca or the Hijaz area.

jeffry

Salam Pazuzu,

Well great to know that. So when u gonna do the continuation on the thread about Muhammad? Hopefully soon.

Peace

KDC501

{And Pharaoh said "O you elites! I have not known of any rabb for you other than me! O Haman, fire-up the mud (clay) and make for me a high platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is one of the liars." }?

And When he says

{I am your supreme rabb} ??

Is the Quran talking about a king of the Nile Valley? Or are we missing something?? Did the Egyptians build their high platforms and lofty temples from mud hardened by fire? Or did they make them from solid stones?

Brother Pazuzu,

The Egyptians built bricks out of mud(clay) and reeds baked in the sun (or heated). The same thing which is said in the Quran

2838 Pharaoh said, "O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me. Therefore, O Haman, fire up(fa-awqid) the bricks (l-ni means clay) and build me a platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses! I am certain he is a liar."

So where is the inconsistency you are talking about?

Regarding Haman and Pharaoh

http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/samer_kadoura.htm

" It also made it possible to acquire the vital piece of information we are now discussing. The name "Haman" was in fact mentioned in old Egyptian tablets. It was mentioned on a monument which now stands in the Hof Museum in Vienna, and in which the closeness of Haman to the Pharaoh was emphasized. (Walter Wreszinski, ?gyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien, 1906, J. C. Hinrichs' sche Buchhandlung)

The dictionary "The People in the New Kingdom" refers to Haman as "the head of the quarry workers". (Hermanne Ranke, Die style="mso-spacerun yes"> Augustin in Gl?ckstadt, Band I, 1935. Band II, 1952)

This discovery brought to light a truly astonishing fact. Haman was, contrary to what those who opposed the Qur'an claimed, really a man who had lived in Egypt during the Prophet Moses' time and furthermore, just as stated in the Qur'an, he was close to the Pharaoh and dealt with construction of sorts. "

{And We let the people who were weak inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived}?

{So Pharaoh sent gatherers to the cities * "These are but a small band." * "And they have done what has enraged us." * "And we are all gathered and forewarned." * So, We evicted them out of gardens and springs * And treasures and an honorable station * As thus, We made the Children of Israel inherit it}?

What have we here? Something that the Muslims have never paid attention to, unfortunately. The Quran is telling us that the Israelites INHERITED everything that Pharoah left behind! Has anyone in this world ever even heard a passing reference of Bani Israel having inherited or ruled the land of ?Egypt? around 1300 BC? (the presumed date of Moses).

7137 We let the people who were oppressed inherit the east and the west of the land which We have blessed, and good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel. For they were patient, and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived. (The land that they inherited was blessed)

The Children of Israel never inherited the lands of the Pharaohs (or as you call it the land of there oppressors). They went to another land or area to worship God. The land of there forefathers (Abraham , Issac and Jacob) This is implied in the story in Sura 5

520 Moses said to his people, "My people, remember God's favor upon you that he made amongst you prophets, and made you sovereigns, and he gave you what He had not given any from the worlds."

521 "O my people, enter the holy land that God Has decreed for you, and do not turn your backs, or you will become losers."

522 They said, "O Moses, in it are a mighty people, and we will not enter it until they leave. So when they leave, then we will enter it."

523 Among those who were afraid, two men whom God had blessed, said, "Enter upon them through the gate; when you enter it then you will be the victors. You shall put your trust in God if you had acknowledged."

524 They said, "O Moses, we will never enter it as long as they are in it, so go you and your Lord and fight, we will stay right here!" ( The land which they eventually inherited had MIGHTY PEOPLE. Which would imply that they may have to fight in order to obtain the land)

525 He said, "My Lord, I do not control except myself and my brother, so separate between us and between the wicked people."

526 He said, "Then it has become forbidden for them for forty years, and they will be lost in the land." Do not be sorrowful over the wicked people.

This same story is also found in the Bible where the two men were said to Joshua and Caleb. And yes the Children of Israel did become wandering tribe of people for forty years.

The Exile from Egypt is a myth. It never happened.

What is even more shocking is the following fact There is absolutely no proof ? and I mean ZERO PROOF ? that the title of ?Pharoah? was ever used to describe the rulers of Egypt!! That?s right, brothers and sisters. You heard it right. If you review the names and titles of ALL the rulers of united Egypt, from King Narmer in 3020 BC, all the way to the year 332 BC when the Greeks conquered Egypt, you will not find a single trace of the word ?Pharoah? ANYWHERE in Egypt. Not on the walls of the temple?not on the murals of the pyramids?not in the papyrus documents or diplomatic letters sent to and from Egypt?NOT ANYWHERE doe the title ?Pharoah? exist in Egypt.

The people of Egypt did not name their rulers ?Pharoah?. Moreover, that word doesn?t even fit with the phonetics of the ancient Egyptian tongue. It is totally ALIEN to their culture. This word was hijacked and forced into ancient Egyptian culture by means of a great forgery which we will soon expose to you. The modern experts in the field of hieroglyphics tried in vain, for many long years, to find even one word in the political protocols of Egypt that is anywhere close to the word ?Pharoah? which appears in the Torah, until finally, after some agonizing efforts, they found a single, orphan solution to the problem. In fact, this solution was the accomplishment of one man, a scholar by the name of James Henry, who claimed the following

Please this complete nonsense! How can you say the word "pharaoh" is not a name that the Egyptians used??? You have to remember that OTHER PEOPLE lived during the antiquities and had lived during the period when the Egyptians still had power(or were declining in power)! So the term "Pharaoh" had to have been a COMMON TERM back then used to describe the Egyptian rulers. The Egyptian empire WAS WELL KNOWN So alot of the simple things like what was the name of there leader was obviously known during the antiquities and EVERYONE ELSE THAT LIVED DURING THE FALL OF THE EGYPTIAN EMPIRE! Read the records of the Alexander's conquest and the empowerment of his subordinates after his death!!! Didn't Ptolemy (one of Alexander's subordinate) rule Egypt??? Do you think that he didn't know what the people called the ruler of Egypt??? Are you serious brother?

Also remember that Ptolemy's time was before the rise of Roman empire. The history is there as proof in prominent cultures The Egyptians fell during the period of Emperor Augustus!

Also why are you surprised brother that there is no proof of Moses ever existing in Egypt? What person who has high esteemed for there culture would record anything about a man with a stick defeating an empire. Isn't that cause for shame????

Peace,

Kevin.

Mazhar

Yet how did the misguided Muslims deal with this truth? They transformed the singular into plural, thus sending the wrong message to their awareness, by using the term ?Pharaos? in the plural, until eventually, it became ?common knowledge? among the masses that there was more than one Pharoah!

So let us read the Quran carefully, and let its verses direct our beliefs, not the other way around. If you go to the search box in the Freeminds Quran translation and type in the word ?Pharaoh? (and by the way the correct spelling is Pharoah, not Pharaoh) it will give you all the Chapters and verses in which this name appears. The word ?Pharoah? appears no less than 50 times in the Quran, and not ONCE does it appear in the plural noun. You can go and check anytime you like.

Please name one who made it plural.

It is 74 times in Grand Qur'aan.

Noon_dhe_plume

Salam,

awww...shucks....wrong link...hahahaha.

here's the right one.

http//www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334

Peace jeffry -- a few snippets taken from the article...

Why are there no such references in the historical records of all ancient Egypt's contemporary neighboring civilizations to support the claim that their ancient neighbor was named "Misr", despite the active political and economical relationships between them?

quote earlier
Akkadian, a Semitic language and correspondences sent to Egypt calling them Misri is not a proof?

The Arabian history and language provides further stunning personal information regarding Fir?awn himself which supports this finding. Ben Asaker, Ben Kathir and Al-Majlessy report the following information to the fact that Fir?awn was married to an Arabian lady ?? Fir?awn?s wife was Asia (&#1575daughter of Mozahim (&#1605 Ben Abdullah ( &#1607 Ben Al Rayan (&#1606 Ben Al Walid (&#1583, Mozahim was Misr?s Fir?awn during Yuousf?s time?? These names are reported to have been confirmed by the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) himself..

Thus ends all scientific inquiry and we see from where the main presumption comes.

How so? What does it mean?
I understand that The Quran is not a history book, but a book on religion, so, not too much historic accuracy is needed, but still, are you suggesting that there is some discrepancy or falsehood?

No, simply that Qur?an is translations of what people said and not always the actual verbatim Arabic.

1230 and said women in the city " woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself has infactuated her love indeed surely see her in error clear."

1243 and said the king "..." translation what the king said into Arabic, likewise...

4351 and called Pharaoh in his nation said " O my nation is not to me king Egypt and these the rivers flow from underneath do they not see?"

Since I have shown you, in my response to member Noon dhe plume, that the Quran contains only Arabic words, and does not borrow ANYTHING from other languages

Shown us where? I asked you where the Romans originated, Arabic?

What language did Dhul-Qarnayn and those people encountered, Arabic?

1892 furthermore followed a means
1893 until when he reached between the two barriers he found from a nation not hardly understand a saying
1894 they said " O you the two horns indeed Yajuj and Majuj corrupters in the earth so shall we offer to you expenditure on that you make between us and between them a barrier?"

Mazhar

The word "Far3oun" is made up of the root + the suffix . Now if you go and open the old Arabic lexicons, and look up the meaning of the word ?Far3? , you will get

Far3 (verb) to lead the people or head the community
Far3 (noun) That which is high or standing tall.

The suffix ?oun? used in Arabic to denote something small, or to belittle something.
Like for example Abd-Abdoun (a small ?adb?). Saad-Saadoun (a small ?saad?). Hamad-Hamdoun (a small ?hamad?). It is used mostly as a nickname for children. FOr example, if a kid is named "Zayd" , he gets the playful title "Zaydoun" (which means, mini Zayd, or small Zayd).

But when used for an adult, and in a certain context, it can be demeaning and derogatory. And that is EXACTLY how the Quran meant it to be.

The word ?Far3oun? is not a ?Hebrew? or a Greek term. It is a 100% genuine Arabic word, which means ?Little Chief? or ?Small Leader?. In its essence, it is a demeaning and belittling title given to that tyrant, and has absolutely nothing to do with ?br-aa? (the Great House), and NOTHING to do with Egypt.

The events did not take place in the Nile country. WAKE UP FROM YOUR DELUSION.

Classical Arabic Lexicon refers it under four consonant Root

( &#1576
.

Please quote reference/authority.

Mazhar

The great catastrophy that we are not aware of is that the Quran completely denies this, and tells us very clearly that after Pharoah and his men drowned, the Israelites eventually inherited the entire land!Open your eyes and read this

{And We let the people who were weak inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived}?

This sort of translations reveal how poorly the translator is equipped with the understanding of grammar of the language that indicates relationship of words in the sentence.

They were made the inheritors of the Easts of the land/Egypt and the Wests of the Land whose peculiarity is indicated as having been blessed. Which area is on the Easts of Egypt and is the Wests of Mecca?

"And We made the people, who were purposely oppressed, the inheritors of the Easts/Eastern area of the Land/Egypt and the Wests/Western areas of the One/Land in which We had placed blessings".

IMHO

Thus ends all scientific inquiry and we see from where the main presumption comes.

No, simply that Qur?an is translations of what people said and not always the actual verbatim Arabic.

Despite a number of highly pertinent, and compelling, evidence from egyptology some "free minds" are refusing to free their mind by simply ignoring a mountain of solid evidence, proving that Misr simply cannot refer to Egypt, they are reacting like the Sunni they so criticize. Such irrational behaviour is evidence of a flawed and fettered and doctrinary mind.
-X Mention the prophet, even if Bukhari's got nothing to do with it, and that ends the intellectual process for them. It seems, to them, the Prophet just zipped his mouth regarding anything other than the Qur'an.Common decency, if nothing else, demands that we allow the person to, at least, finish his presentation before being questioned, or worse, attacked!

Noon_dhe_plume

Despite a number of highly pertinent, and compelling, evidence from egyptology some "free minds" are refusing to free their mind by simply ignoring a mountain of solid evidence, proving that Misr simply cannot refer to Egypt, they are reacting like the Sunni they so criticize. Such irrational behaviour is evidence of a flawed and fettered and doctrinary mind.
-X Mention the prophet, even if Bukhari's got nothing to do with it, and that ends the intellectual process for them. It seems, to them, the Prophet just zipped his mouth regarding anything other than the Qur'an.Common decency, if nothing else, demands that we allow the person to, at least, finish his presentation before being questioned, or worse, attacked!

Clear archaeological and Qur'an evidence to the contrary was posted for you that Babylonians, Assyrians, and others wrote numerous letters back and forth to the king of current day land of Egypt and he too replied back as ?king land (of) Misri? simply read the Amarna letters/tablets (1350s ? 1330s BCE)

Click here to read their stories ---> http//www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.html

Click here to see transliteration ---> http//oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amarna/corpus

Here is only one exchange EA 001 Amenhotep III of Egypt complains to the Babylonian king Kada?man-Enlil

http//oracc.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/oracc?prod=list&project=amarna&seq=period,genre,provenience,designation&perpage=25&k0=_all&page=1&item=5&trans=en

1 -na mka-da!-a?!-ma-an-en-lil2 LUGAL KUR ka-ra-an-du-ni-ia2-a?
2 ?E?-ia qi2-bi2-ma um-ma mni-ib-mu-a-re-a LUGAL GAL
3 LUGAL KUR mi-i-ri-i ?E?-ka-ma a-na ma-ri-ia ?ul-mu

LUGAL = king
KUR = land

?king land (of) Misri?

Amenophis III to Kadasman-Enlil I, No. 1
EA #1 mc(98 lines),See AP Refers to Kadasman-Enlil as King of Kardunias; letter writer refers to himself as Nibmuaria', the great king of Egypt'; emphasizes that everything is well with my house, my wives, my sons, my chief men, my horses, my chariots, my soldiers, ... , my lands'; refers back to `thy tablet' written to him

1299 so when they entered on Yusuf/Joseph he took to him his parents and said enter (i.e. land currently referred to as Egypt) if He wills The God safe

Peace!

Mazhar

{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?

What we are questioning is, precisely Does the word ?Misr? actually mean ?Egypt??

Yes, Arabic word "Misr" is the best, actual and true mirroring/description of country named, now named and recognized as Egypt.

Know this fact, Fir'aoun/Pharaoh circulated proclamation/address within his Nation, he said,

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/043.%20Az%20Zukhraf/43.51a.gif
"O my countrymen/nation, is the state/dominion of Misr not for me, and these streams of water are flowing by my side/underneath ? Will you people still not see/focus ?

4346-55

NOMAD

Salam to all you brothers, in fact i just make my register right now, specially tell PAPUZU to PLEASE keep going.. im looking forward to hear the rest of MOSES Pharaoh and the other issue of Yemen( u know what im talking about D ) its amazing compilation of truths we cant deny it , and we all have to ponder about the misconceptions and forged history, GRREAT JOB, and all the others that try to fight Papuzu Posts, i also give thanks for trying, but PAPUZO always opens our eyes for the real facts, just my point of view.. THank you very much for all the shared information..

NOMAD

NOMAD

SORRY big mistake, not PAPUZO, PAZUZU i mean heeh

unknownuser

Brother Pazuzu,

The Egyptians built bricks out of mud(clay) and reeds baked in the sun (or heated). The same thing which is said in the Quran

2838 Pharaoh said, "O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me. Therefore, O Haman, fire up(fa-awqid) the bricks (l-ni means clay) and build me a platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses! I am certain he is a liar."

So where is the inconsistency you are talking about?

The Egyptians built their HOUSES from mud. The houses of the common people. Not their temples, graves, or Pyramids. Those were made from solid rock, which they took from quarries. Can you show me a siingle Egyptian temple or pyramid made from mud? It is clear from the verse that "Far3oun" was asking from some towering structure to be built, so he could look upon "Moses's God". Can you show me where there is such a structure in Egypt?

Please this complete nonsense! How can you say the word "pharaoh" is not a name that the Egyptians used??? You have to remember that OTHER PEOPLE lived during the antiquities and had lived during the period when the Egyptians still had power(or were declining in power)! So the term "Pharaoh" had to have been a COMMON TERM back then used to describe the Egyptian rulers. The Egyptian empire WAS WELL KNOWN So alot of the simple things like what was the name of there leader was obviously known during the antiquities and EVERYONE ELSE THAT LIVED DURING THE FALL OF THE EGYPTIAN EMPIRE! Read the records of the Alexander's conquest and the empowerment of his subordinates after his death!!! Didn't Ptolemy (one of Alexander's subordinate) rule Egypt??? Do you think that he didn't know what the people called the ruler of Egypt???

NO, it was not a "common term" back then. This was a term that the Septuagint priests injected into the culture of Egypt. the Ehyptians called their rulers "teti", which means KING, as I showed you in the cartouches. THere famous graveyard over there is called the "Valley of the KINGS" (NOT teh Valley of the Pharoahs). But you stubbornly insist on ignoring the archeological evidence I have provided. THe word "Pharoah" was taken from the Aramaic Torah. It is a SEMITIC WORD, not an ancient Egyptian word. Once I prove to you that Aramaic was nothing but a dialect of the Mother Tongue (Arabic), you will then understand that it was derived from "Far3oun", which means "small chief".

Are you serious brother?

Yes, I am dead serious. THe archeologists were baffled by the word "Pharoah" because there is absolutely no mention of it anuwhere in the culture of the Nile Valley. The only ancient Egyptian word they found that remotely resembles it is "brr-aa" (or "prr-aa&quot, which literally means "Great House" or "Great Court". Once they found that word, some of them jumped to the conclusion that the so-called "Hebrews" must have corrupted it into "Pharoah". The fact is, the Egyptian kings were never called "Great House". If you even bothered to read that link I posted, you would have seen the proof. In case you didn't, I will save you this trouble. In one of their temples, they found the following poem glorifying their prime deity, Ra. The translation of the hieroglyphs reads

?Homage to thee ?
o thou lord of brightness
thou who art at the head
of the great house (pr-aa)?
prince of night and of thick darkness ?
he comes to thee being a pure soul ?
..o, grant thou unto him
His mouth that he may speak therewith,
At the season when there are clouds
And darkness ??

As you can see, the ancient Egyptian used to refer to their supreme god as "the head of the great house"?(Not the Great House ITSELF). Furthermore, that was the epithet of Amun-Ra in many of their religious texts., and it had NOTHING to do with their kings.

Once I reach the part of the article that deals with the Septuagint forgery, and how they projected the events which took place in a land which the Torat called "Misraim" onto Egypt, then you will understand how the word "Pharoah" was introduced, by means of this forgery, into the culture of ancient Egypt.

For now, it is enough to know that the title never existed in Egypt.

Also remember that Ptolemy's time was before the rise of Roman empire.

Did I ever claim otherwise? If so, please show me where I have done so.

Also why are you surprised brother that there is no proof of Moses ever existing in Egypt? What person who has high esteemed for there culture would record anything about a man with a stick defeating an empire. Isn't that cause for shame?

Oh, is it? Well pray explain to me why the Egyptian records, which mentioned details as trivial as the shape of their king's stool, failed to mention ANYTHING about the alledged 600,000 "Hebrew" slaves who were forced into menial labor in building the pyramids. Can you explain that?

Better yet, can you explain why there is ZERO mention of pyramids in the Torah? Was that an oversight by the scribes? So are we to believe that The Torah, which described, in detail, the striped shirt worn by the Prophet Joseph (P) "forgot" to mention those towering structures, that remained, for 5000 years, the most spectacular works of construction made by the hands of man?

For how long do we have to believe in this nonsense?

Please name one who made it plural.

It is 74 times in Grand Qur'aan

Name one who made it plural? I never said that. What I said was very clear, but you seemed to have misunderstood. I said that the Quran calls ONLY ONE person by the title of "Far3oun". And that person was STRICTLY the tryant during Moses' time, who ruled a WALLED AND FORTIFIED TRADE CITADEL (as I will soon prove to you). There were no "Pharoas" before him, and no "Pharoas" after him. Can I be any more clear than this?

However, there is a common belief now which says there were over 100 "Pharoas", and that they were the rulers of Egypt. THAT'S what I meant to say.

@Noon dhe plume

Peace jeffry -- a few snippets taken from the article...

Go ahead.. Take as many snippets as you want from that article.

And yes, there IS mention in the Arabic books of tradition that the wife of "Faroun", whose name they claim was "Asia", had an Arabic name. Even some historians (notably Yaqoot al Hamwi) have claimed this.

But these sources cannot be trusted or brought anywhere near the level of the QUran, or the archeological evidence. And the latter are alone enough to prove that the events surrounding Joseph, Moses, and the Israelites did not take place in Egypt.

@Mazhar

This sort of translations reveal how poorly the translator is equipped with the understanding of grammar of the language that indicates relationship of words in the sentence.

Poorly equiped? Is there ANYONE who can read and understand Arabic here? if so, I call on him to read the following verse (26 59) and tell me what they means, in all honesty, and without any deception

You see that word outlined in blue, Mr. Mazhar? it says ,

As a native Arabic speaker, I don;t think I need anyone to teach me that the word means INHERITED. A 6 year old Arab will tell you that it means INHERITED...

What did teh Isrelites INHERIT, and from whom?? I think if you read the verses immediately before it, it will be as clear as the sun in a midnight sky that they inherited the entire blessed land of which Far3oun's WALLED CITADEL was part of.

Once "Far3oun" drowned and was gone from the scene forever, the stage was set for the Israelites to form their kingdom. Now, the Quran tells us that the followers of Moses were reluctant to enter a certain town, because they were afraid of its mighty inhabitants, so as a consequence, Allah made it restricted for them for 40 sana (which, by the way, doesn't necessarily mean "year&quot. However, they still inherited the entire land, and eventually, they established their kingdom in THAT SAME LAND, under David and Solomon.

So no, its not a case of mistranslation. I;ll tell you what it's a case of It's a case of you twisting and corrupting the meaning, because the Quranic truth is disproving the Septuagint lies which you are unknowingly marketing., by insisting that the Israelites were in Egypt.

They were made the inheritors of the Easts of the land/Egypt and the Wests of the Land whose peculiarity is indicated as having been blessed. Which area is on the Easts of Egypt and is the Wests of Mecca?

DO you realize what you just said, Mr. Mazhar?? YOu just called "Egypt" a city!! The city where they (the Israelites) were made 3rd rate citizens'. You just blurted out the truth without even realizing it.

The Quran speaks of "misr". And this "misr", as you will soon see, was a WALLED TRADE CITADEL somewhere in South West Arabia. It had nothing to do with EGYPT whatsoever.

Yes, Arabic word "Misr" is the best, actual and true mirroring/description of country named, now named and recognized as Egypt.

LIES...

The name of that land is KOPTOS- QIBT- EGYPTUS....A name that goes back over 5000 years in time.

Despite a number of highly pertinent, and compelling, evidence from egyptology some "free minds" are refusing to free their mind by simply ignoring a mountain of solid evidence, proving that Misr simply cannot refer to Egypt, they are reacting like the Sunni they so criticize. Such irrational behaviour is evidence of a flawed and fettered and doctrinary mind.

And there is more evidence still to come. I feel it is my duty to continue this thread, because that small minority here, those few of you who have been having that nagging doubt in their consiousness that there is something seriously wrong, twisted, and illogical in all that we have been tought as the truth, need to understand that their doubt does in fact have a foundation.

Peace...

Mazhar

Quote
They were made the inheritors of the Easts of the land/Egypt and the Wests of the Land whose peculiarity is indicated as having been blessed. Which area is on the Easts of Egypt and is the Wests of Mecca?
DO you realize what you just said, Mr. Mazhar?? YOu just called "Egypt" a city!! The city where they (the Israelites) were made 3rd rate citizens'. You just blurted out the truth without even realizing it.

The Quran speaks of "misr". And this "misr", as you will soon see, was a WALLED TRADE CITADEL somewhere in South West Arabia. It had nothing to do with EGYPT whatsoever.

The city was walled even in the days of Yusaf alahissalam. His brothers were advised to enter the city from different gates. The Cities of country named Misr were walled.

exodus

In my theory, muslim scholars and leaders assumed word of "misr" as "land of Egypt" in base of Christian and Jewish traditions long after death of prophet. I think they thought this "correction" will help them for approving Quran and other previous sacred scriptures were same origin.

If they were investigate Quran fair enough and if they had defend Quran with courage, we never have been falling into this trap so easily.

Just a simple fact, Moses himself using word of "misr" exactly in "a town/city" form.

261 And when you said O Musa! we cannot bear with one food, therefore pray Lord on our behalf to bring forth for us out of what the earth grows, of its herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions. He said Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city, so you will have what you ask for. And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them, and they became deserving of Allah's wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.

In this verse word of "misr" used as "misran" which means "a misr" exactly. This situation becames meaningless for a "so-called" land's proper name.

Mazhar

Quote
Yes, Arabic word "Misr" is the best, actual and true mirroring/description of country named, now named and recognized as Egypt.

LIES...

The name of that land is KOPTOS- QIBT- EGYPTUS....A name that goes back over 5000 years in time.

A native Arab!!!

What does Misr mean in Arabic. A limit or boundary between two lands. And when Misr came into being? It came into being with unification of Two Lands. Prior to unification the land was settled with autonomous villages.

Mazhar

Quote
This sort of translations reveal how poorly the translator is equipped with the understanding of grammar of the language that indicates relationship of words in the sentence.
Poorly equiped? Is there ANYONE who can read and understand Arabic here? if so, I call on him to read the following verse (26 59) and tell me what they means, in all honesty, and without any deception

You see that word outlined in blue, Mr. Mazhar? it says ,

As a native Arabic speaker, I don;t think I need anyone to teach me that the word means INHERITED. A 6 year old Arab will tell you that it means INHERITED...

What did teh Isrelites INHERIT, and from whom?? I think if you read the verses immediately before it, it will be as clear as the sun in a midnight sky that they inherited the entire blessed land of which Far3oun's WALLED CITADEL was part of.

Once "Far3oun" drowned and was gone from the scene forever, the stage was set for the Israelites to form their kingdom. Now, the Quran tells us that the followers of Moses were reluctant to enter a certain town, because they were afraid of its mighty inhabitants, so as a consequence, Allah made it restricted for them for 40 sana (which, by the way, doesn't necessarily mean "year&quot. However, they still inherited the entire land, and eventually, they established their kingdom in THAT SAME LAND, under David and Solomon.

Had it been by a non-Arab, it might not have disturbed me. By just reading and forgetting the next line showing the fact of moving away/exodus from that land of the Believing segment of Bani Isreal alongwith Musa Alahissalam seems as not relevant for an Arab's reading. They cross over the sea, then pass by another locality. Then arrive at At Tur.

The problem is that people are under the influence of gossip that thousands and thousands of men and women of Bani Israel were with Musa alaihssalam at the time of exodus. But the fact is that the whole Bani Israel never even believed in Musa alahissalam while in Misr. Only a small segment believed in him and accompanied him. Those majority of Bani Israel which remained in Misr, they inheritied "" signifying and referring back to the gardens and treasures since none returned back having been drowned.

"" pronoun refers back only to those things specifically mentioned earlier. I feel embarrassed telling this simple thing. It does not mention that they inherited Misr.

KDC501

The Egyptians built their HOUSES from mud. The houses of the common people. Not their temples, graves, or Pyramids. Those were made from solid rock, which they took from quarries. Can you show me a siingle Egyptian temple or pyramid made from mud? It is clear from the verse that "Far3oun" was asking from some towering structure to be built, so he could look upon "Moses's God". Can you show me where there is such a structure in Egypt?

Brother let me say this again since you seem not to understand my last post.

The Egyptians built bricks/stones out of mud(clay) and reeds baked in the sun (or heated). The same thing which is said in the Quran

http//www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/building/

"Built of sun baked bricks made of Nile mud and straw, houses, palaces and city walls crumbled when they stopped being looked after"

This fact can be found on other websites. So the fact that you say the Egyptians built there temples, and pyramids out of solid rock and say nothing of how they were made says to me that you're trying to hide the truth.

This same fact is found in the Quran.....

2838 Pharaoh said, "O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me. Therefore, O Haman, fire up(fa-awqid) the bricks (l-ni means clay) and build me a platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses! I am certain he is a liar."

So again I say WHERE IS THE INCONSISTENCY

NO, it was not a "common term" back then. This was a term that the Septuagint priests injected into the culture of Egypt. the Ehyptians called their rulers "teti", which means KING, as I showed you in the cartouches. THere famous graveyard over there is called the "Valley of the KINGS" (NOT teh Valley of the Pharoahs). But you stubbornly insist on ignoring the archeological evidence I have provided. THe word "Pharoah" was taken from the Aramaic Torah. It is a SEMITIC WORD, not an ancient Egyptian word. Once I prove to you that Aramaic was nothing but a dialect of the Mother Tongue (Arabic), you will then understand that it was derived from "Far3oun", which means "small chief".

"The earliest instance where pr-`3 is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), who reigned c. 1353 - 1336 BC, which is addressed to 'Pharaoh, all life, prosperity, and health!. During the eighteenth dynasty (sixteenth to fourteenth centuries BC) the title pharaoh was employed as a reverential designation of the ruler. About the late twenty-first dynasty (tenth century BC), however, instead of being used alone as before, it began to be added to the other titles before the ruler's name, and from the twenty-fifth dynasty (eighth to seventh centuries BC) it was, at least in ordinary usage, the only epithet prefixed to the royal appellative."

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh

I feel sorry for those who listen to this nonsense. It is quite clear to me that they don't read enough. People have to understand that they were other civilizations that existed during the rule of the Egyptians. To say that Arabs did have the word "Pharaoh" (Fir'awn in arabic) which sounds similar is clear twisting/distortion of the truth.

Also Egyptian history is consistent with the Quran...The term 'Pharaoh' was only used for kings that existed during the New Kingdom. During the old kingdom they were called Kings as can be seen in the story of Joseph.

1243 The King said, "I continue to dream of seven fat cows which are being eaten by seven thin ones, and seven green pods and others which are dry. O you chiefs, tell me what my vision means if you are able to interpret the visions."

Oh, is it? Well pray explain to me why the Egyptian records, which mentioned details as trivial as the shape of their king's stool, failed to mention ANYTHING about the alledged 600,000 "Hebrew" slaves who were forced into menial labor in building the pyramids. Can you explain that?

Better yet, can you explain why there is ZERO mention of pyramids in the Torah? Was that an oversight by the scribes? So are we to believe that The Torah, which described, in detail, the striped shirt worn by the Prophet Joseph (P) "forgot" to mention those towering structures, that remained, for 5000 years, the most spectacular works of construction made by the hands of man?

For how long do we have to believe in this nonsense?

Name one who made it plural? I never said that. What I said was very clear, but you seemed to have misunderstood. I said that the Quran calls ONLY ONE person by the title of "Far3oun". And that person was STRICTLY the tryant during Moses' time, who ruled a WALLED AND FORTIFIED TRADE CITADEL (as I will soon prove to you). There were no "Pharoas" before him, and no "Pharoas" after him. Can I be any more clear than this?

However, there is a common belief now which says there were over 100 "Pharoas", and that they were the rulers of Egypt. THAT'S what I meant to say.

Brother why are you bringing up the Bible in this? I'm taking about the proofs in the Quran to prove that Fir'awn was from Egypt. Also again why are you surprised that there is no records of the exodus in Egypt. If I was Pharaoh of Egypt I personally would have gotten rid of any trace of the Children of Israel history since it's a shameful history to remember or record for an empire. A single man with a walking stick with no weapons , no artillery defeats a great Egyptian army!!! Wouldn't you call that brother a shameful piece of history???

Peace,

Kevin
Peace,

Kevin.