Who Was the Pharoah of Moses

IMHO

Peace IMHO,

First let?s resolve this current issue

The word appears along with gardens which are watered by people
We know it is fact gardens and cornfields do NOT build themselves!
Thus your assumptive bad interpretation and rant by Margret/Pazuzu et al is proven false according to Qur?an

7136 so We took retribution from them so We drowned them in the flood water they are/have rejected in our signs and they were from it negligent
7137 ... and We destroyed what was doing Pharaoh and his nation and what they were constructing

4425 how many they left from gardens and water pools
4426 and corn fields and places noble
4427 and pleasant things they were in it taking delight

No sir, you have proved nothing I only see you filling in the gaps, picking and choosing. So for instance you suddenly replace springs, as translated in the site you provided, with garden pools.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=44&verse=26
Are you sure that means cornfield, if so check if that the picture of Pharoah does indeed show a cornfield and not other crops, seeing that this would be an amazing discovery. You see, as far as scholars are aware the knowledge of Maize (Corn) was with the Native Americans only, until the 15th century; see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize

Not to forget that there were gardens and pools in Yemen, and many other places. It seems you are applying a different standard for yourself than for Pazuzu, as when he gives accounts of Seeneen you call it ranting, but for you everything fits even though your reasoning is doubtful at best.

Also in order to justify your assertion, that what Phoroah had built was not destroyed, check that the people working in the "corn field" were Phoroah's own people and not the weak and opressed children of Israel peace

noble

IMHO, re. NDP corn fields... wrong, you are correct...

in my native sahraoui arabic, zuru'3 means human plantations (could be from cereals to pulses to orchards and anything in between that can be farm planted)...

IMHO

IMHO, re. NDP corn fields... wrong, you are correct...

in my native sahraoui arabic, zuru'3 means human plantations (could be from cereals to pulses to orchards and anything in between that can be farm planted)...

Salaam bro
Arabic is not my language but in Turkish as well as Urdu Zuru(d) means yellow, could it mean ripe crops/plantation when you see yellow fields? hmm

noble

Salaam bro
Arabic is not my language but in Turkish as well as Urdu Zuru(d) means yellow, could it mean ripe crops/plantation when you see yellow fields? hmm

not good at etymology so do not know...

in my arabic ripe is taab, and ripened taayab... in current classical arabic it is nadhaj...

crop ready for harvest (meaning by induction ripe) is zar'3 jahiz lilhasd

IMHO

not good at etymology so do not know...

in my arabic ripe is taab, and ripened taayab... in current classical arabic it is nadhaj...

crop ready for harvest (meaning by induction ripe) is zar'3 jahiz lilhasd

Salaam brother Nabil yes "human plantations" is the most appropriate translation.
Jazakalllah

IMHO

Also why are you surprised brother that there is no proof of Moses ever existing in Egypt? What person who has high esteemed for there culture would record anything about a man with a stick defeating an empire. Isn't that cause for shame????
Peace,

Kevin.

Salaam Kevin
Ok!! What about proof of Yusuff in Egypt after all he was the one worth mentioning since he managed Msr so well during 15 hard years?
Re Today's post in other thread
I am glad that you?re discussing this further with Pazuzu, but maybe it should be in the appropriate thread so that others could follow it too. I am sure Pazuzu will reply to you though.
As I am following his stance, so far I have come to the conclusion that Egypt is not the Msr of Yusuf and Musa(as). That does not mean I agree that Msr was just a citadel and that Fir3oun was some small chief.
In my opinion he was as powerful as USA today and he held misreen/ his guarded bases just like the US holds today in different parts of the world.
No 2; That Palestine is not the blessed Land but you say ?This holy land was resided near Bakka. And it my belief that this land is Jerusalem ....
Please tell me, with quotes from the Qur'an, how you came to this conclusion. To say that Bakka is a well know place among the Jews.... is not enough.
Peace

KDC501

Salaam Kevin
Ok!! What about proof of Yusuff in Egypt after all he was the one worth mentioning since he managed Msr so well during 15 hard years?

If you're looking for Quranic proof I already posted this up weeks ago ....

The Egyptians built bricks out of mud(clay) and reeds baked in the sun (or heated). The same thing which is said in the Quran

2838 Pharaoh said, "O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me. Therefore, O Haman, fire up(fa-awqid) the bricks (l-ni means clay) and build me a platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses! I am certain he is a liar."

So where is the inconsistency you are talking about?

Regarding Haman and Pharaoh

http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/samer_kadoura.htm

" It also made it possible to acquire the vital piece of information we are now discussing. The name "Haman" was in fact mentioned in old Egyptian tablets. It was mentioned on a monument which now stands in the Hof Museum in Vienna, and in which the closeness of Haman to the Pharaoh was emphasized. (Walter Wreszinski, ?gyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien, 1906, J. C. Hinrichs' sche Buchhandlung)

The dictionary "The People in the New Kingdom" refers to Haman as "the head of the quarry workers". (Hermanne Ranke, Die style="mso-spacerun yes"> Augustin in Gl?ckstadt, Band I, 1935. Band II, 1952)

This discovery brought to light a truly astonishing fact. Haman was, contrary to what those who opposed the Qur'an claimed, really a man who had lived in Egypt during the Prophet Moses' time and furthermore, just as stated in the Qur'an, he was close to the Pharaoh and dealt with construction of sorts. "

The historical fact of Pharaoh and Haman should be more than enough evidence to prove that Joseph and his descendants dwelt in Egypt as it as also claimed in the previous scripture.

Haman was a master builder. His job was to build 'high platforms' for Pharaoh. I wonder what type of high platforms they were talking about??? P

Regrading my belief that Bakka resided in Jerusalem and not Arabia this can be easily answered by the book which we as God Alone Monotheists read everyday. The Quran. Lets look at some verses in the Quran that talk about 'the true Qibla'

2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say, "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say, "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."

2143 As such, We have made you a balanced/impartial nation so that you may be witnesses over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. We did not make the focal point that you came on except so that we know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a big deal indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your acknowledgement. God is Kind and Compassionate over the people.

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.

Look at the quote in red and tell me what that quote means.....

What is God talking about when he said "Those who have been given the book" ???? Who are these people who know the truth about this Qibla???

hmmm... you know what lets get back to that later lets look further into the Quran for some more clues...

Here's God instructing Muhammad that if he was in doubt about what has been sent down to him to ask those who have been given the Book (scripture ) before him

1094 If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask those who have been studying the book from before you. The truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.

Here are other verses showing to us who are the people who have been given the Scripture previously....

365 "O people of the book, why do you debate us about Abraham when the Torah and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not reason?"

Who are the people of the book??? Who are the people that have been given the Torah and the Injeel???? Is this a clear reference to the Jews and Christians????

Do the Jews and the Christians know the Truth????

2109 Many of the people of the book have wished that they could return you to being unappreciative after your acknowledgement, out of envy from themselves after the truth was made clear to them. You shall forgive them and overlook it until God brings His will. God is capable of all things.

370 O people of the book, why do you reject God's signs while you are bearing witness?

399 Say, "O people of the book, why do you repel from the path of God those who acknowledge? You wish to twist it while you were witness. God is not oblivious to what you do."

3199 Among the people of the book are those who acknowledge God, what was sent down to you and what was sent down to them. They revere God and they do not purchase with God's signs a cheap price. These will have their reward with their Lord. God is quick in computation.

515 People of the book, Our messenger has come to you to proclaim for you much of what you were hiding from the book, and to ignore over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying book.

2947 Similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the book will acknowledge it. Also, some of your people will acknowledge it. The only ones who mock Our signs are the ingrates.

It is quite clear from several verses in the Quran that the People of The Book are more aware of what really is being taught in the Quran than those who are not of the People of the Book.

All these points are clear signs to me that Bakka (which is WELL KNOWN AMONG THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS) resides in Jerusalem and NOT MECCA. The establishment of the Kabba in the city of Mecca is to me a failed attempt perpetrated by those who existed AFTER Prophet Muhammad's death to create a fake history that Mecca is the city of Abraham when those who have the scripture know that Jerusalem was the city of Abraham. This has been known for
thousands of years!!!! Long before the Quran even existed!!!! There is no historical proof pre-dating before the Quran that shows to us that Mecca was ever a place of pilgrimage or a place that is well known among the Jews and Christians!!!! Zero! Zip! Nada! None!!! All proofs in the Quran lead to Jerusalem and the temple Mount (Mt. Moriah (marwah in Arabic one of the signs stated in the Quran along with Safa which some believe to be Mt. Sion)) )

If you need any more information and I'm sure that you and others still have many questions you can read the book "The Natural Republic" Chapter 18 "Pilgrimage Th e Lost Legacy of Abraham" and you can also check out this forum thread for more information...

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602528.10

In this thread you will also find en-lighting historical proofs that there was a lot of covering up done by the Arabs during early Islam. You will find that the city of Petra was perhaps the real Mecca. That early Islamic cultures started to build Qiblas facing a whole bunch of different directions none of which faced the present day Mecca!!!! You will also find that earliest mosques recorded FACED JERUSALEM and not MECCA.

www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf
http//www.indipress.ca/feature.html

Jerusalem is the true dwelling place of Abraham. The Jews and the Christians are fully aware of this and they themselves would acknowledge it. Mecca is not known to the Jews nor Christians. This place was SOOOO unimportant that it is not even in there present Scriptures. Which practicing Jew or Christian would bear witness to Mecca being the historic place of Pilgrimage??? Where is the evidence in history and in the previous scripture??? These are the type of questions we as Quran Alone Monotheists should ask ourselves.

Peace,

Kevin

noble

Peace Kevin,

Respectfully, I accepted the scenario you are summarising which is Layth's and many Quran Alone advocates of this line of thinking, of whom I used to be a part of...

However, there were jews/israelites and nazarenes/christians in Yemen Asir region too, and you could have the very same story in Asir too... now which is the mirror image of the other, or more saliently which is the original and which is the copycat (or tayammun).

Now it seems there is a very strong dialectic, linguistic, historical argument that puts Asir as a better candidate...

That the beginning of Prophet Mohammed's mission started near Petra or in the opposite region to Yathrib in Asir, he ended up in Yathrib/Madina whatever the scenario...

Your evidence is very thin, because it is mainly based on the premise that there were christians and jews in this Jerusalem we know and its vicinity...

But there were and still are Jews/Christians and now Muslims in the Asir region too, and the archeological findings do not favour Canaan, but instead Asir...

KDC501

Peace Kevin,

Respectfully, I accepted the scenario you are summarising which is Layth's and many Quran Alone advocates of this line of thinking, of whom I used to be a part of...

However, there were jews/israelites and nazarenes/christians in Yemen Asir region too, and you could have the very same story in Asir too... now which is the mirror image of the other, or more saliently which is the original and which is the copycat (or tayammun).

Now it seems there is a very strong dialectic, linguistic, historical argument that puts Asir as a better candidate...

That the beginning of Prophet Mohammed's mission started near Petra or in the opposite region to Yathrib in Asir, he ended up in Yathrib/Madina whatever the scenario...

Your evidence is very thin, because it is mainly based on the premise that there were christians and jews in this Jerusalem we know and its vicinity...

But there were and still are Jews/Christians and now Muslims in the Asir region too, and the archeological findings do not favour Canaan, but instead Asir...

So basically you believe that the Yemeni Jews and Christians posses different scriptures than the other Jews and Christians everywhere else. lol. I am basing my arguments on scripture. Read my post carefully. No one can say that the Yemenic Jews and Christians posses different scripture from the other Jews and Christians across the world(during Muhammad's time)! This can be proven as factual by the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls which pre-dated Jesus' period of existence! So basically every Jew and Christian around the world had knowledge of the Scripture and no one among the Jews and Christians would tell you that Mecca is the place of pilgrimage since it never was in there own scriptures.

Our evidence(those who believe that Jerusalem is the holy city) is far more broader than yours and others because we have the previous scriptures as proof as well as the Quran. Mecca is non-existent in the previous scriptures! So basically the "mecca crew" has much less proof. Your proof is very thin and has no historical basis except after the Quran and not before. Give me one piece of evidence that pre-dates the Quran that proves that present day Mecca was ever a place of pilgrimage! If mecca was so important where is the proof in the previous scripture! Maybe you and others can go and check the Yemeni Bible to find your proof.lol But I doubt you'll find anything different than what we presently have today.

The previous scriptures points to Jerusalem and so does the Quran. I will stick with what I know and not what I do not know. As a person who was a Christian prior to becoming a Quran Alone Monotheist I know absolutely nothing about Mecca ever being the place of Abraham.

Peace,

Kevin

huruf

Where is Jerusalem mentioned by name in the Qur'an?

Salaam

KDC501

Where is Jerusalem mentioned by name in the Qur'an?

Salaam

There is no mention of Jerusalem by name in the Quran. But the Quran gave us many MANY clues that Jerusalem is the city of Abraham. You can go through some of the links that I posted previously.
Just so you know as well the Quran makes no reference to the fact that Mecca (which I believe to be the present day city of Petra) was ever the place where the Sacred Masjid resided.

Peace,

Kevin

IMHO

If you're looking for Quranic proof I already posted this up weeks ago ....
The historical fact of Pharaoh and Haman should be more than enough evidence to prove that Joseph and his descendants dwelt in Egypt as it as also claimed in the previous scripture.

Salaam brother Kavin
I am sorry you have not posted any proof that Egypt is the Msr of Moses and Joseph and to say its enough that a name similar to Haman was found in Egyptian narrations does not confirm that its the same as what's in the Qur'an, this is like saying Kavin is also arabic name by saying Ka Aa Vaan and then you say; Haman was a master builder. His job was to build 'high platforms' for Pharaoh. I wonder what type of high platforms they were talking about??? P
I would suggest you read the Quran properly without any outside influences and do understand that what every Fir3oun and his people build was destroyed by God just like other nations who were subjected to God's wrath. In the case of Fir3oun his body is made a sign ... clearly stated in the Qur'an that "we preserved his body" where as bodies of all pharoahs were mumified by their people.
It is very easy to attack Pazuzu as he is shaking status quo but if you keep you mind really free as free-minders should only then you will see lots of holes in Egyptain theory.

Regrading my belief that Bakka resided in Jerusalem and not Arabia this can be easily answered by the book which we as God Alone Monotheists read everyday. The Quran. Lets look at some verses in the Quran that talk about 'the true Qibla'

No dear brother it is not that easily answered and this was worring prophet as there must have been confusion about it
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you, "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. God is not oblivious of what you do.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say, "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say, "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
Ayah below clearly says follow qibla of messenger not the one which was claimed by the people of the book
2143 As such, We have made you a balanced/impartial nation so that you may be witnesses over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. We did not make the focal point that you came on except so that we know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a big deal indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your acknowledgement. God is Kind and Compassionate over the people.