:: Ramadhan Fasting or .....? ::

dawngorgeous

Then the fasting mentioned in 2, 187 must be sex.

mmkhan

Salaam Dawn,

Yes 2187 is about sex, but how about 2183-2185?
And what exactly Saum means is explained in 1926.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

dawngorgeous

Peace mm,

I meant that the whole of the verse 187 must be about sex. The words translated as -eat and -drink must be figurative and must be referring to sex. Consume it and enjoy it until daybreak...then..?

Dawn.

mmkhan

Peace mm,

I meant that the whole of the verse 187 must be about sex. The words translated as -eat and -drink must be figurative and must be referring to sex. Consume it and enjoy it until daybreak...then..?

Dawn.

Peace Dawn,

Then..?

Thumma Atimmu alSiyaama ila alLayli...2187
alSiyaama is plural of Saum and what is Saum? It is defined in 1926.

If kulu wa-shraboo means eat-n-drink, then 1926 also talk about it while doing saum, hence it contradict with 2187.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Salaam,

This is an update to the opening post, inshaAllah.

There are three major questions asked by many people.

Why shahr means full-moon and why not a month?
How many days we have to fast?
What means saum or siyaam ?

InshaAllah, I will try to answer all these questions from alQuraan by the permission of my Lord, Allah.

Question
Why shahr means full-moon and why not a month?

2185
2185 The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful .

The highlighted part says "So whoever witnesses alShahr, so let him fast it". Here, if you take shahr as a month, please tell me how can you witness the month? You can witness a calendar, but not the month. Right?
If you think you can witness the month, I should ask, which calendar month? Gregorian's, Arabic's, Urdu's, Hindu's or Fiscal calendar? That is not mentioned in the aayat above.

Besides this, if you think that you can witness the month, then you have to fast a single day as per the above highlighted part. Which says, So whoever witnesses the month, so let him FAST IT. Yasum is the word used above is referring to a single saum, so no need to fast for a complete month, just one saum of the month will do.

Question
How many days we have to fast?

2185
2185 The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful .

When you understand that alShahr does not mean a month but a full-moon, the same highlighted part above shows us the number of days to fast.

When you witness a full-moon, you have to fast it. Then again if you witness a full-moon next day, you have to fast it. This is how it goes. There might be 3 full-moons, or 5 full-moons, or 7 full-moons . But I have witnessed 3 full-moons last year and this year 5.

This is the reason I think "ayyaman ma3doodatin" is used, that means "a limited number of days" and a fixed number of days are not given clearly.

Question
What means saum or siyaam ?

Without going into confusions, it is simple to see the definition of word saum in 1926.
If you take "kuloo wa ishraboo" means "eat and drink", then you can see a contradiction between 2187 and 1926 as the definition of saum in 1926 starts with eat and drink.

1926
1926 So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to man.' "

Hope this may help inshaAllah. This is just my personal understanding, please check all the quoted aayaat carefully before accepting it.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for this helpful update! The bit about witnessing the month... the way its put, it made me consider why would it say witness a month when anyone who is here on Earth will know of the month in any case? The witness part sounds much more like it's witnessing something else in particular as you mentioned. Those are just some thoughts.

justamuslim

Mmkhan,

I have been reading your posts intently and digesting them. In verse 2183, the word used is ALsiyam which implies a specific type. Not just any Siyam. But ALsiyam. In verse 1926, Siyam is used.

Any thoughts on that? Mind sharing.

Looking forward to your posts. Thanks.

mmkhan

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for this helpful update! The bit about witnessing the month... the way its put, it made me consider why would it say witness a month when anyone who is here on Earth will know of the month in any case? The witness part sounds much more like it's witnessing something else in particular as you mentioned. Those are just some thoughts.

Pease sPnW,

Thank you for your input, I agree handshake

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

justamuslim

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for this helpful update! The bit about witnessing the month... the way its put, it made me consider why would it say witness a month when anyone who is here on Earth will know of the month in any case? The witness part sounds much more like it's witnessing something else in particular as you mentioned. Those are just some thoughts.

Me too! Shahid from what I understand means a witness. I have never heard of or asked anyone 'have you witnessed month' or moon for that matter. You see a moon not witness a moon. Is it an Arabic expression to say "witness a moon or month"?

mmkhan

Mmkhan,

I have been reading your posts intently and digesting them. In verse 2183, the word used is ALsiyam which implies a specific type. Not just any Siyam. But ALsiyam. In verse 1926, Siyam is used.

Any thoughts on that? Mind sharing.

Looking forward to your posts. Thanks.

Peace justamuslim,

Thanks.
As per my understanding the usage of AL is given in this thread. Please follow, it may be helpful, inshaAllah. The word sauman used in 1926 simply means "a fast".

You are welcome.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Me too! Shahid from what I understand means a witness. I have never heard of or asked anyone 'have you witnessed month' or moon for that matter. You see a moon not witness a moon. Is it an Arabic expression to say "witness a moon or month"?

Peace,

Is 2133 helpful for you, inshaAllah?

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

Me too! Shahid from what I understand means a witness. I have never heard of or asked anyone 'have you witnessed month' or moon for that matter. You see a moon not witness a moon. Is it an Arabic expression to say "witness a moon or month"?

Peace justamuslim,

Hmm, I've really got to look into this further. For the moon, witnessing it may mean the sighting of the full moon for example. So we see it for that day and moment in time and it's that moment in time that's related to the fast. As the full moon won't always be the same each month or year as well, it would need to witnessed each time. That's one way to look at it. In terms of witnessing the month - that's something everyone here on Planet Earth will know full stop. The timing of it isn't so much an issue as something like a full moon etc, we know when it is... I hope I'm explaining that clearly. As to whether these are Arabic expressions, I'm not sure but lets say you need to witness something to trigger the timing of an event - a full moon or something like that seems to fit more, right now the way I view it, than an actual month. These are more my preliminary thoughts as well as further reflection. Of course, Allah knows best.

hawk99

Peace justamuslim,

Hmm, I've really got to look into this further. For the moon, witnessing it may mean the sighting of the full moon for example. So we see it for that day and moment in time and it's that moment in time that's related to the fast. As the full moon won't always be the same each month or year as well, it would need to witnessed each time. That's one way to look at it. In terms of witnessing the month - that's something everyone here on Planet Earth will know full stop. The timing of it isn't so much an issue as something like a full moon etc, we know when it is... I hope I'm explaining that clearly. As to whether these are Arabic expressions, I'm not sure but lets say you need to witness something to trigger the timing of an event - a full moon or something like that seems to fit more, right now the way I view it, than an actual month. These are more my preliminary thoughts as well as further reflection. Of course, Allah knows best.

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

wit?ness/wtns/ Show Spelled Show IPA
verb (used with object)

to see, hear, or know by personal presence and perception to witness an accident.
to be present at (an occurrence) as a formal witness, spectator, bystander, etc. She witnessed our wedding.
to bear witness to; testify to; give or afford evidence of.
to attest by one's signature He witnessed her will.
verb (used without object)
to bear witness; testify; give or afford evidence.

Have a blessed ramadan

peace

justamuslim

Peace,

Is 2133 helpful for you, inshaAllah?

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

Witness = being alive, present and seeing something yourself.

it does not make sense to say "so whoever Shahida among you alshahra" ?...whoever is alive and present among you... Makes absolutely no sense to me.

This whole verse 2183-188 - how it is translated just does not make sense to me. I have been trying for the past 20+ years.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace hawk99,

I'd look into the different ways the term shahid/witness is used in the Quran. Does the definition of a sighting fit best here in this verse and context or presence? When it says that "shahida" for 318, I don't think it means present at occurence.

Laleh Bakhtiar translation
God bore witness that there is no god but He, as do the angels and those imbued with the knowledge, the ones who uphold equity. There is no god but He, The Almighty, The Wise.

Abdel Haleem
God bears witness that there is no god but Him, as do the angels and those who have knowledge. He upholds justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All Wise.

So again, we would take the whole verse into context. I can understand what you are saying but I am trying to find the best fit taking into consideration different options. Like I said, I am pondering this further.

Ramadan Mubarak

justamuslim

Peace justamuslim,

Thanks.
As per my understanding the usage of AL is given in this thread. Please follow, it may be helpful, inshaAllah. The word sauman used in 1926 simply means "a fast".

You are welcome.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

will be looking into it. Thanks.

hawk99

Peace hawk99,

I'd look into the different ways the term shahid/witness is used in the Quran. Does the definition of a sighting fit best here in this verse and context or presence? When it says that "shahida" for 318, I don't think it means present at occurence.

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I apologize I thought you were referring to 2/185

as far as 3/18 is concerned the word attest would be a better "english"
translation.

at?test/tst/ Show Spelled Show IPA
verb (used with object)

to bear witness to; certify; declare to be correct, true, or genuine; declare the
truth of, in words or writing, especially affirm in an official capacity to attest the
truth of a statement.
to give proof or evidence of; manifest His works attest his industry.
to put on oath.
verb (used without object)
to testify or bear witness (often followed by to ) to attest to the reliability of an employee.
noun
Archaic. witness; testimony; attestation.

Enjoy your ramadan

peace

supportpeacenotwar

Peace hawk99,

I was referring to 2/185. I referred to 318 as an example of the way shahid can refer to a certain type of witnessing depending on the context of the verse as well. I was just putting an idea out there when I made that post to justamuslim. My intention was to offer another way of looking at it as I know that can help me, not really start debating to be honest. If it means present during that month, I am not sure that would change my understanding of fasting too much either. And yes, my understanding of fasting does go outside the traditional concept.

Have a great Ramadan.

mmkhan

Witness = being alive, present and seeing something yourself.

it does not make sense to say "so whoever Shahida among you alshahra" ?...whoever is alive and present among you... Makes absolutely no sense to me.

This whole verse 2183-188 - how it is translated just does not make sense to me. I have been trying for the past 20+ years.

Peace,

I think you are getting confuse between the words and in 2133.

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

357

Witness = being alive, present and seeing something yourself.

it does not make sense to say "so whoever Shahida among you alshahra" ?...whoever is alive and present among you... Makes absolutely no sense to me.

This whole verse 2183-188 - how it is translated just does not make sense to me. I have been trying for the past 20+ years.

Now 20 years is almost a lifetime.

"Any one who witnesses (recognises) an invitaion to violence should avoid it/ shun it - (that will then lead you to righteousness)"

just check out the circumstances of the word accurrences "saum" in the quran - although one can come to the same conclusion using a dictionary to my knowledge.

handshake