Define Your Definition For Clarification Without Confusion: Qur'aan Alone = = ?
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HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE QURAN WAS FULLY PRESERVED? - IS IT NOT THE AHADITH THAT INFORMS US?
joseph islam
INTRODUCTION
The subject title shares a question (as part of a wider claim) usually cited by Muslims who assert that the Quran has reached us in the same manner as Ahadith.
What this at times unfortunately conveys is a tacit weakness in the enquirer's methodology to wrestle with all the Quranic verses to prove to themselves whether or not this is indeed a Divine scripture. Instead, it is often found that many Muslims accept the veracity of its Divine origins because they have been led to believe that it was preserved by a rigid process and they lay blind trust in that process. This is normally the 'mantra' and typical of the Muslim that has 'inherited' their religion.
A question bears pondering. When a non Muslim individual sincerely accepts the Quran as the Word of God, does he or she really care 'how the Quran was preserved'? Do they really accept the Quran as God's word because the Ahadith attests that the Quran can be traced all the way back to a Prophet which they do not yet believe in?
The answer is of course, in the negative. They challenge the arguments presented by the Quran and accept or reject it on the basis of whether or not the arguments convince them that it is a Divine message. It is useful to appreciate that at this stage the enquirer has not yet established belief that the Quran is the book of God during their initial study of the Book. They are merely examining the claim. Is one really then to think they would pay any heed to the books of Ahadith that may refer to the Quran's preservation? Would one ever invite a non-Muslim by handing them a Book of Hadith? Why not?
Sadly, this remains the paradox. A Muslim who ?inherits? their religion is taught that the Prophet is a messenger of God first and thus the Quran needs to be accepted as a Divine scripture of God. In contrast, a New Muslim accepts the Quran as a Divine scripture first (through some sort of analysis) and then puts faith in the person who delivered the message as a Prophet of God.
EXTANT HISTORY IS NON THE WISER
A proper study of historical sources strongly indicates that even the earliest historians of Islam, such as Ibn Ishaq, were non the wiser as to how the Quran was actually revealed and in what order.
(Please see related article below)
Ibn Ishaq, Islam's earliest historical source for Prophetic biography was often just merely relating the stories he acquired from other traditionalists and his works were in wide circulation before any of the traditional books of Ahadith took canon. What often comes as a surprise for many academics is the fact that the earliest historians were not even convinced which Surah was the first revelation! (Was it Surah 96 or Surah 73? - does it really matter?).
(Please see related articles and below)
Therefore, there can only be one logical deduction. The Quran wants the reader to ponder on its narratives with a view to accept or reject it as the word of God as opposed to blindly accepting it. Blind acceptance would not require one to research its message. This would be no different from any blind adherent of any faith.
(Please see related article below)
IT IS ONLY THE AHADITH THAT RAISES DOUBTS TO THE QURAN'S PRESERVATION
It is the Islamic secondary sources that inform the reader
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That verses were missing and a goat ate the stoning verse with regards to adultery?
That the Prophet of God introduced the Satanic verses?
That Caliph Uthman burnt the extant copies of the Quran?
That there was a missing suckling verse (Ten clear sucklings which made the marriage unlawful, then it was later abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and then was somehow removed or missed from the Quran altogether?
That there was a missing Ibn Adam verse (regarding Ibn Adam's possession of a wadi of property)?
That there was a missing 'pleasing' verse from the Quran (regarding those that were slain at Bi'r Mauna which included the verse "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met with our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires)?
And many others, from al-Baraa, verses that were lost with dead Muslims, cancelled and repealed verses and those forgotten by the Prophet himself and those lost by Quranic recitersDoes the Quran make such fanciful claims or even hint to it?
No.
Please click on to read the rest
http//www.quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm
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Bring it on!
So you are prepared for the hiding of your life. Are you going to be the first raafiDiy (rejector of the imaamaH of imaam zayd ibn ali as he called you) who is going to boldly take up the challenge of constructive methodical debate. I admire and respect you if you would do that. Bear in mind that I have converted over 100 Twelver raafiDiys back to the right fold during the last five years and that is without any effort. Your fallible ideologies are going to collapse. I am waiting for you impatiently so that we can prepare for the challenge here or at any other venue inshaa ALLAAH. The ball is in your court. I am all ready to play.
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Now that the pleasantries have been exhanged, can we get back to the original topic of this thread.
What Quran Alone Means.
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The Qur?an is the only book for the Muslim.
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God Almighty is the One from whom help and guidance is sought.
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The Qur?an hasn?t left anything out.
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The Qur?an is the truth in which there is no doubt, and all else is conjecture, and conjecture should not be followed.
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The Qur?an is the only hadith in which we must believe.
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The Qur?an is complete, perfect and requires nothing else alongside it.
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The Qur?an is God?s Straight Path and anything else is a departure from the Straight Path.
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The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message and NOT to explain it.
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The messenger used to govern using the Quran alone.
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The Sunna of the prophet was the Quran alone.
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Now that the pleasantries have been exhanged, can we get back to the original topic of this thread.
What Quran Alone Means.
-
The Qur?an is the only book for the Muslim.
-
God Almighty is the One from whom help and guidance is sought.
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The Qur?an hasn?t left anything out.
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The Qur?an is the truth in which there is no doubt, and all else is conjecture, and conjecture should not be followed.
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The Qur?an is the only hadith in which we must believe.
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The Qur?an is complete, perfect and requires nothing else alongside it.
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The Qur?an is God?s Straight Path and anything else is a departure from the Straight Path.
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The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message and NOT to explain it.
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The messenger used to govern using the Quran alone.
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The Sunna of the prophet was the Quran alone.
+salaam god1quran1
Thank you for your excellent presentation.
+salaam
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So you are prepared for the hiding of your life. Are you going to be the first raafiDiy (rejector of the imaamaH of imaam zayd ibn ali as he called you) who is going to boldly take up the challenge of constructive methodical debate. I admire and respect you if you would do that. Bear in mind that I have converted over 100 Twelver raafiDiys back to the right fold during the last five years and that is without any effort. Your fallible ideologies are going to collapse. I am waiting for you impatiently so that we can prepare for the challenge here or at any other venue inshaa ALLAAH. The ball is in your court. I am all ready to play.
I do not have the liberty of time to go through your thread. You have disrespected Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq (as) (in a serious manner), taken pride in the persecution of the Shi'ites, first started by Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan, Ziyad bin Abi Sufyan, Yazid bin Muawiya, Ibn Ziyad and Hujjaj Al-Thaqafi and went on..Did taraddi for the Tyrant Caliph
Later you claimed to be the direct descendent of Imam Zayd ibn Ali but you are not a Zaidi ( and you claim i am a rafidhi for rejecting the imamah of Zayd ibn Ali)and converted 100+ rawafidh, are you insane? which rafidhi would convert to any religion after your various contradictory statements.
The icing on the cake would be your soft tolerant attitude towards the Quranist read "prince and princess"
You are a laughing stock, lol!
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A proper study of historical sources strongly indicates that even the earliest historians of Islam, such as Ibn Ishaq, were non the wiser as to how the Quran was actually revealed and in what order.
Which idiot wrote this article? sorry for the language.
Ibn Ishaq was a servant of the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mansoor the Tyrant. His narrations are more like sooth-sayer, laughable at best.
Sunni Traditionalists have rejected Ibn Ishaq and questioned his reliability.
The subject of Quran is too controversial for him to discuss. The Uthmanic Mushaf has already undergone many rounds of tempering by the Ummayad Caliphs and later the Abbasids.
Regretfully all other Musahaf were suppressed and destroyed by the Ummayads.
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No, you are just falsifying stories. Nowhere does it say in the Qur'an that "Enjoy marriage as long as you can and divorce whenever you want when you have been satisfied by your spouses"
So far, how many times have you done mutaa? What is the longest time taken your mutaa has been and what is the shortest time taken your mutaa has been? 1 hour? 2 weeks?"as long as you can"? when did i state such a thing?
what i stated was that till the appointed time. I have proven to you that the words were present in the original Quran and it was undoubtedly practised by the Companions after and during the time of the Prophet (sawa).
It is a conditional marriage, no where in the Quran it is stated that marriage should be unconditional.
It was the laws of Allah, unlike some people like you who allow engagement which has absolutely no basis in Islam and it leads to adultery.By prohibiting Mut'ah you have opening the doors to adultery. Imam Ali (as) stated if not because of that man (ie Umar) only the most wretched will engage in adultery.
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"as long as you can"? when did i state such a thing?
what i stated was that till the appointed time. I have proven to you that the words were present in the original Quran and it was undoubtedly practised by the Companions after and during the time of the Prophet (sawa).
It is a conditional marriage, no where in the Quran it is stated that marriage should be unconditional.
It was the laws of Allah, unlike some people like you who allow engagement which has absolutely no basis in Islam and it leads to adultery.By prohibiting Mut'ah you have opening the doors to adultery. Imam Ali (as) stated if not because of that man (ie Umar) only the most wretched will engage in adultery.
Mutaa is just a type.of adultery with contract.
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By prohibiting Mut'ah you have opening the doors to adultery. Imam Ali (as) stated if not because of that man (ie Umar) only the most wretched will engage in adultery.
Because many of us cannot control our carnal desires so to justify them lets legalize mutah bravo
May Allah help us in following the true Quraan.
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Because many of us cannot control our carnal desires so to justify them lets legalize mutah
You and your leaders have challenged the true words of Allah that Mut'ah is allowed.
Narrated Abu Nadrah
I read this verse to Ibn Abbas <<Whichever of them you perform Mut'ah with, pay them their right due>> Ibn Abbas said <<<<Whichever of them you perform Mut'ah with FOR AN APPOINTED TERM, pay them their right due>>. I said, "We do not read it that way." He replied, "By Allah, this was how Allah revealed it."
Al-Hakim saysThis hadith is sahih on the conditions of Muslims although they have not recorded it.
Al-Dhahabi saysOn the conditions of Muslim.
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Mutaa is just a type.of adultery with contract.
How do you Quranist view engagement, is there any basis at all?
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You and your leaders have challenged the true words of Allah that Mut'ah is allowed.
Why are you quoting hadith when you know the members of this forum focus only on the Qur'an?
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I do not have the liberty of time to go through your thread.
Paper swords will only challenge paper swords. Just say you have no guts. With rudeness and uncouthness you entered this thread lying and cursing. Again are you going to be like my cousins (your imaams) who sat at home among the women leading people to life while my fore fathers were killed beheaded and crucified fighting the Umayyads and Abbasites. The problem with you guys are that you will challenge the whole world but when it comes to us - the "itraH of 'aHlu-l- bayt - you are no different than zebras fleeing from the lion. Liars will be liars and fools will be fools.
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The icing on the cake would be your soft tolerant attitude towards the Quranist read "prince and princess"
You are a laughing stock, lol!
These Qur'aanists at least respect the integrity of the Qur'aan. That alone makes them infinitely better than you. You are fabricators.
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How dare you associate yourself with the "itrah and abuse our Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq (as).
You also did taraddi on their enemies, May Allah curse the liars!
The hadith is authentic and solid, show me why was that verse revealed?
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These Qur'aanists at least respect the integrity of the Qur'aan. That alone makes them infinitely better than you. You are fabricators.
So is this what the Ahlul Bayt taught you? (or rather your fore-fathers) reject all their narrations wholesale and adopt Quran literally!
They are setting up an entirely new religion and giving it the name "islam", what can be more absurd than this!
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You have disrespected Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq (as) (in a serious manner), taken pride in the persecution of the Shi'ites, first started by Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan, Ziyad bin Abi Sufyan, Yazid bin Muawiya, Ibn Ziyad and Hujjaj Al-Thaqafi and went on..Did taraddi for the Tyrant Caliph
What! A continuation of your inventions and dreams. The prime deserters of 'aHlu-l-bayt who now want to wipe their hands clean from their hypocrisy. Did you forget what you shiites did to my 42nd father imaam husayn! My 40th father amiyr zayd ibn ali! My 39th grand uncle amiyr yahyaa ibn zayd! My 39th father amiyr "iysaa ibn zayd! My 38th father ahmad ibn "iysaa! And all the others too many to enumerate. We have a proud history serving ALLAAH. You don't.
Do you feel ashamed when I told you that our cousins (your imaams) were sitters at home among the women as my fore fathers were fighting on the battle field. Are you ashamed of the facts? Where were they when we (their cousins) were crucified naked and our skeletons hanging for years for all to see? Don't play the victim!
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What! A continuation of your inventions and dreams. The prime deserters of 'aHlu-l-bayt who now want to wipe their hands clean from their hypocrisy. Did you forget what you shiites did to my 42nd father imaam husayn! My 40th father amiyr zayd ibn ali! My 39th grand uncle amiyr yahyaa ibn zayd! My 39th father amiyr "iysaa ibn zayd! My 38th father ahmad ibn "iysaa! And all the others too many to enumerate. We have a proud history serving ALLAAH. You don't.
Do you feel ashamed when I told you that our cousins (your imaams) were sitters at home among the women as my fore fathers were fighting on the battle field. Are you ashamed of the facts? Where were they when we (their cousins) were crucified naked and our skeletons hanging for years for all to see? Don't play the victim!
Dont talk crap here, what happened to Nafs Zakiyya, who deserted them in Madeena? Dont play history with me, I know history too..
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So is this what the Ahlul Bayt taught you? (or rather your fore-fathers) reject all their narrations wholesale and adopt Quran literally!
They are setting up an entirely new religion and giving it the name "islam", what can be more absurd than this!
I think you have a mental problem of affected mannerisms. Start reading before making false statements. The problem is that your mentalities are heaped up with layers of fabrications and distortions and now you no longer can see right from wrong.
It is because of you guys that these qur'aaners have rejected everything besides the Qur'aan. I have been fighting my own battles with many of them and al-hamdu lillaaH many of them have seen the light. But many of them are a people with rational minds who want proof. You guys are irrational who base your beliefs on falsehood.
If you say they are ignorant then I say that you are misguidedly ignorant.Another thing- why are you displaying the sword of my ancestor. Did you forget that your imaams (my cousins) abandoned it. The proof of this is in your own books. If you want knowledge then I shall teach you. For it is with us that the contents of al-jafr is preserved.