Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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- Regarding q-t-l, not even in dictionnaries or good grammars is kill given as the only meaning or even the foremost. I have also my reservations regarding the the kill meaning. In fact I do not agree with the automatic meaning of kill, no. As to the possibility that it may strictly and BASICALLY mean kill in any occasion, I hve reservations, and I stress the BASICALLY.
Like in the aya 2.251 mentionned by FS. As far as I can see as to the basic meaning of the aya, the important part is not whether Dawood killed Jaaluut, but whether hw overpowered him and prevailed. Whether jaaluut was undone through killing, or through being vanquished, or through any means containing him, the gist of the aya would be the same. I am not sure the aya, IN ITSELF, makes it obligatory that Jaaluut should have been killed by Dawood, any of the other possibilities I mention would do too. What if jaaluut was killed and in spite of his being killed his party or his stance won? Wouldn't that have defeated the meaning of the aya?
I am not speaking by myself, as I say this q-t-l = kill is denied by real masters or Arabic. It is one of the means by which the basic meaning of q-t-l may be attained, but it is not the BASIC.
It is a bit like the d-r-b thing, which basically means doing something decisive to attain a result. For a mental sept up in which beating the hell out of somebody is the surest and quikest way to get anything done, d-r-b may mean beat. To a person with a bit more of brain, it will not, suh an idea will curtail enourmously the possibility of solving something thoroughly.
- The Qur'an is not a science book and it does not intend to teah science to anybody, but rather to push the reader to reflect and study by her or himself everything around her or him and everything within him or herself.
That said, if the Qur'an says something, it is necessarily true and knowledgeable. We may not yet have the means to understand it for what it is, or we may never have them, but wront it is not. However it seems that people who like to pick on Qur'an, undefectively use explanations or trnaslations made by men to something they could not grasp to replace what the Qur'an itself says, and mean that when readers of Qur'an correct what other readers of Qur'an have wrongly explained necessarilly those later intend to save the Qur'an from its own mistakes. That is, those qur'an pickers uphold the truth of past readers of Qur'an as if it was sacred. And then we get upset at wahabis and the like. They are the same kind of fools. They paly at being clever against others, but they do not get any more knowledgeable nor any wiser. They are such for such.
Also there is the fact that upon the believers there is a duty to learn and try to understand, but there is not duty whatsoever of getting the right answers to everything.
Only God is God, we creatures are strivers, or we should be.
Salaam
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So I have become deluded?
What if there rather is a delusion where 99% of people have fallen victim.
I like what Quran says, and then I mean what it really says. This is not really my opinion that I come around with. I asked you to ponder upon the so-called initials of Quran but you seem to have failed to do so.
Salaam -
So I have become deluded?
What if there rather is a delusion where 99% of people have fallen victim.
I like what Quran says, and then I mean what it really says. This is not really my opinion that I come around with. I asked you to ponder upon the so-called initials of Quran but you seem to have failed to do so.
SalaamWell your understanding does seem deluded but I can see why. Maybe you're just trying to see things in the Quran to make it fit what you want it to say. I personally want the Quran to say that the earth does not rotate hence it's the sun and stars that revolve around the earth. For me this would be a great sign from God to counter the non-believers. I'd love to see what arguments the non-believers would have if this were to be found to be true.
So what is it about killing in the Quran that you object to? When the prophet was ordered to go into battle at Badr did not God give the command that they need to kill the enemy?
Did God not order the Jews who worshipped the golden calf to kill themselves?
Does God not command life for life when someone has been murdered?
Maybe you want to justify to the non-muslims that the Quran is not violent hence anything to do with killing and fighting you want to re-interpret to something else.
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So you are convinced by religious people that the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it. Oh God in that case.
Correction
Sorry, I did not carefully read your statement above when I wrote my previous post.
So, this is the answer to replace my previous post
Allah made me aware that the earth is not a globe, and about the sun, I think I still have to do more study to know about the position of the sun and how it works. I hope someday I can understand how it works, God willing.
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JavaLatte please supply verses where Allah says the earth is flat.
I still need time to collect verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue, brother. I want to collect not only verses which mention about the earth, but also verses which mention about the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Those verses seem to have connection.
But, if you really want to know soon, then I suppose you could look at this thread,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607159.10
because brother Ustahi already made posts which contain some verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue.
nope
And also, when you read/study the Qur'an, I hope you would ponder carefully when you come to verses which describe the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon. yes
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Well your understanding does seem deluded but I can see why. Maybe you're just trying to see things in the Quran to make it fit what you want it to say. I personally want the Quran to say that the earth does not rotate hence it's the sun and stars that revolve around the earth. For me this would be a great sign from God to counter the non-believers. I'd love to see what arguments the non-believers would have if this were to be found to be true.
So what is it about killing in the Quran that you object to? When the prophet was ordered to go into battle at Badr did not God give the command that they need to kill the enemy?
Did God not order the Jews who worshipped the golden calf to kill themselves?
Does God not command life for life when someone has been murdered?
Maybe you want to justify to the non-muslims that the Quran is not violent hence anything to do with killing and fighting you want to re-interpret to something else.
We agree
We cannot put our wishes above those of the creator, that is what creates delusion
and straying. We cannot put words or meanings that are not there, that is true submission,
to hear and obey. This is one of the themes throughout the Quran where believers are
told to trust and obey the message. The painful fact is, killing is natural to protect and to
establish or how else can you deal with Jalut, taghut, al zawlimun, and oppressors?I still need time to collect verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue, brother. I want to collect not only verses which mention about the earth, but also verses which mention about the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Those verses seem to have connection.
But, if you really want to know soon, then I suppose you could look at this thread,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607159.10
because brother Ustahi already made posts which contain some verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue.
And also, when you read/study the Qur'an, I hope you would ponder carefully when you come to verses which describe the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon. yes
When you find what you are looking for please share it with the rest of us.
God bless
peace
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Ted,
No. I do not want to make Quran fit what I think about things. It is not I who wrote Quran and hence not I who decide what it says.
And what tradition you have concerning Muhammad, sad to say, but most of it is a lie.
And no, Allah did not give the Children of Israel the command to kill themselves. Allah gave them the command to correct themselves. Why would Allah tell a person to commit suicide? It does not make sense except for a person for a person who just wants to force qatal to mean kill.Life for life yes. It is still valid since the age of Moses, and it is metaphorical for establishing a system of justice and not seek revenge beyond the original crime. And yet Jesus said that it is way better to forgive than to seek revenge even in proportion to the crime.
In all the usage of qatal does not fit from a qualitative sense. Just take a look on the passage that says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourselves". Does this sound like an author who got all horses at home? Especially since the following passage follows up on the talk about usury again. From one context to another, is that a well-written text?
Moses did say that he tried to convince them and they would not let themselves be convinced. And next passage says Aaron is more eloquent in speech than him. You see the literal quality go up tremendously.
Salaam
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Hawk99,
I see the irony in what you say. But you follow something that someone else put their own words for what it liked to say. Try to see it the other way.
The Creator is innocent, obviously.
Salaam
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Hawk99,
I see the irony in what you say. But you follow something that someone else put their own words for what it liked to say. Try to see it the other way.
The Creator is innocent, obviously.
Salaam
Thank you Man of Faith for your reply. In any scholastic debate one must have convincing
evidence, you to this point have provided no evidence to contradict those who you
accuse of false interpretation! You have yet to give us your Arabic word for "kill".God bless you
peace
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I still need time to collect verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue, brother. I want to collect not only verses which mention about the earth, but also verses which mention about the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Those verses seem to have connection.
But, if you really want to know soon, then I suppose you could look at this thread,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607159.10
because brother Ustahi already made posts which contain some verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue.
And also, when you read/study the Qur'an, I hope you would ponder carefully when you come to verses which describe the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon. yes
Your time may be better spent proving the earth is flat using current technology/observations. The Quran are words which point to the truth. It's for believers to find that truth and satisfy themselves with it.
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Hawk99,
Why do I have to give you the Arabic word for kill? Do you like killing?
Anyway, as I progress you shall get your word for kill.
I have given you lots of food for thought concerning how illogical it is that the word means kill. And I have given a definition for what it means. And I have also shown why it is so.
And you still did not respond to what you think as to why chapter 38 and 68 begin with a sole letter and then a conjunction which ought to logically indicate that the letter is supposed to have a meaning.
Salaam
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Just take a look on the passage that says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourselves".
There is no such passage in the Quran. Maybe that's where you're going wrong?
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Why do I have to give you the Arabic word for kill? Do you like killing?
Thank you Man of Faith for taking time to reply, the reason I requested your definition
for the word kill in Arabic is because the Arabic language already has a word for kill
and you seemed determined to erase that word from the Arabic language and replace
it with your very own meaning.Do I like Killing you ask. The answer is no, but I have no problem killing to protect
myself and the defenseless women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, or those
who need my protection.Anyway, as I progress you shall get your word for kill.
May Allah bless your endeavors
I have given you lots of food for thought concerning how illogical it is that the word means kill. And I have given a definition for what it means. And I have also shown why it is so.
Not convincingly enough, if you mean "exhort" I think exhort is a poor translation for Q-T-L
Waw-Ayn-Za I think is better translation for exhort (Arabic speaking folk may have a better understanding)And you still did not respond to what you think as to why chapter 38 and 68 begin with a sole letter and then a conjunction which ought to logically indicate that the letter is supposed to have a meaning.
I have not responded to the initials that proceed the chapters of the Quran because
I have no clue what they mean.God bless you
peace
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Salaam Man of Faith,
Thank you for your understanding.
I have reached further in my research and salateh does have nothing to do with connection or prayer or whatever one wishes to use as interpretation acrobatics. That does not say that the word to pray does not exist in Quran, but salateh is simply not that one.
I agree that "salat" does not mean "prayer" in al-quran. The word for prayer in al-quran/the reading is "du'a". I think salat is a way to establish a connection with the infinite Creator. This is proved by the following sign
1187 They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat command you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!"
How else can salat command someone without establishing a connection with the infinite Creator and studying, pondering and reflecting on its signs?
I challenge anyone in the world to fit their understanding of salat in 1187 and see if it makes sense.
Aquyum assalateh means to mind one's ways. It is also actually a valid source from lexicons that the root has a definition that is "to follow". The word as I interpret means in the word before suffixing Follow To Be. The morpheme level analytical method is slightly hard, but it is astonishingly accurate once you learn the exact meaning of each letter (which I have not for all letters yet despite improvements).
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I think "amalu salehin" as in 262 refer to minding one's ways by doing good.
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Also "mind one's ways" is a neutral word. Ways can be good or bad. If it meant "mind one's ways" it should have been followed by "salehin" like "aqimi al-salaat al-salehin". Otherwise "mind one's ways" can easily mean "mind one's evil ways".
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How does minding one's ways "command you" as per 1187?
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Minding one's ways is a continuous action and not limited to certain times of the day. How can you mind your ways only at certain times of the day as per 1778 and 11114 where words such as "al-shams", "al-nahaar", "al-layl" are used which clearly refer to certain times of the day?
If those signs don't refer to certain times of the day then we are living in "Alice in wonderland" where anything can mean anything one desires! Then someone can say that in English "murder" means "making happy" using morpheme analyses and anyone can make any word mean anything they want using their secret letter meanings. That will open a door to complete chaos and give a free license for misinterpretation!
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If salat means "mind one's ways", then where in al-quran has the infinite Creator told us how to uphold a connection with it?
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How can one remember the infinite Creator by minding one's ways (2914)?
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What is the source of your secret innate letter meanings other than taking your word for it? How is that different from conjecture? (6116, 1036). Where is your proof? (2875)
The result is that the prophets did not instruct their children to any ritual or meditation but simply to good ways.
I never said salat is a ritual and I never said salat is only meditation. In my post I clearly told you that in my opinion salat included 3 things, not just meditation or channeling the infinite Creator.
Of course the prophets instructed to good ways and the term used for that in al-quran is "amalu salehin", not "salat".
And go ponder upon the so-called initials of Quran if you doubt my method. Why are in chapter 38 and 68 they followed by a conjunction and sole letters?
The initials can mean anything and nowhere has the infinite Creator told us what the initials mean. What is the source of your secret meanings other than conjecture? What is your proof that Arabic letters mean what you think they mean? Was it a direct "wahi"/channeling to you from the infinite Creator about what the letters mean?
I do, however, agree with you that we are going to be in a less physically dense and more spiritual world in the life hereafter in our journey to eventual complete shedding of the physical body and assimilation with the infinite Creator.
May the infinite Creator bless you for all your efforts.
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Peace Man of Faith,
And why do you ignore the fact that your being here is to find he right spiritual attunement? Do you deny that you should avoid indulgence in the worldly matters because you will be living in another less fleshly world when you die if you manage to find the spirit. You bring nothing of the material things with you, not even your body (so no reason for expensive plastic surgery).
And I acknowledge that God is the only being in existence so what is your problem with me. Are you stuck on formalities?
And it is very beautiful both mine and Jesus' message; to be spiritually in affinity and do the will of the Creator. Why do you argue this notion? When you merge with that consciousness this is what happens.
Well said bravo
May the infinite Creator bless you.
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I do, however, agree with you that we are going to be in a less physically dense and more spiritual world in the life hereafter in our journey to eventual complete shedding of the physical body and assimilation with the infinite Creator.
I don't think so. Our souls are already of the "spiritual" kind. Our souls were created then brought into the reality of creation where all the angels, jinns, earth and universe exist. Our souls observe/interact with the physical universe with our bodies. My assumption is that this model of creation applies to most if not all of creation. The angels have a soul but with a body which is made of light. The jinns have a body made of smokeless fire. Animals have a soul with a body as well. I think even the sky and earth does so as well.
On Judgement Day there's going to be destruction of the existing physical bodies, both human, earth, stars, sky, etc. and it will be recreated into a new physical one. This will be similar but better and they will run with similar but new laws. There will be no decay/death in the hereafter. Everything will be beautiful. Those are successful and make it to heaven will get to see God through their physical eyes. I think they will see a representation of God since God is difficult to be comprehended by finite beings - this is just my opinion. We will see/interact with trees and greenery and buildings and roads and lakes and rivers, etc. Just like we do on earth. Except that those things will be of far better quality.
So I don't think we'll be going towards a spiritual reality. This is the reality that all creation lives in and this is the one that we will wake up on resurrection day. Things will look different but we'll have the same concepts and similar things as we do in this world. I think the Quran makes this pretty clear.
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Just to make it clear I am not saying that if you don't pray to God you will not make it into heaven. My understanding is that even those who pray 5 times a day or even more may not get into heaven since they may have committed adultery and not repented, they may have murdered someone, they may have been really bad. It could be that someone who has not prayed regular may have been doing really good things and them good deeds may simply get them in heaven.
However I think it makes it difficult for one to call themselves a muslim or follower of the Quran. You could call yourself a believer in God but to call yourself a muslim I think is a bit incorrect.
Salam Ted.
Sorry for a bit delay, seems like the thread has moved on to many different directions. May I pick up from where we left?
Based on your above statement (especially para 1) you seem to really have moved on from ?worshiping Allah, the deity of Islam? to ?being slave to Allah, the Master of the universe?. That is a HUGE step. Since you have taken this step I hope and pray that Merciful Allah will show you the way out of darkness to light.
2256 There is no compulsion in the resolution (ِ. Verily, right has become clearly distinct from the error ? then whoever represses (faith) in deity (ِ and has faith in Allah has grasped the most firm handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Listener, Knowledgeable.
2257 Allah is the patron of those who have faith; He brings them out from darkness into light. And those who repress (faith) ? their patrons are the deities ( they bring them out from light into darkness; they are the ones ? the society of the fire; they will be in there permanently.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
However, from your second para it seems that you still have some confusions left. Let me try to help you overcome these confusions. If our Master wills our discussions will be mutually beneficial to both of us.
You are saying, ?I think it makes it difficult for one to call themselves a muslim or follower of the Quran??
Do you mean ?muslim? is the name of a ?follower of Quran?? Where do you get this understanding? Qur?an repeatedly calls Abraham the precise muslim ? was he a follower of Quran?While you think about this, let me go back to one of your earlier comments which sparked this interesting discussions and investigate it from the light of Qur?an.
You said
Being good does not automatically make you muslim. Being good AND worshipping your Creator alone makes you a muslim. So the pagans might have been good but by worshipping idols makes them unbelievers. Same goes for the atheists.
You also clarified that by worshipping you mean ?praying?.
This implies, you consider ?Doing Good? and ?Praying to God alone? as two independent mutually exclusive criteria for one to be a muslim and from Qur?an we know that being muslim is the minimum requirement for salvation. So, in turn it implies ?Doing Good? and ?Praying to God (alone)? as two independent mutually exclusive criteria for salvation. And whoever does these 2 is a muslim.
I would disagree with this assertion, and say that ?Doing Good" (i.e. acting righteously) per our God gifted conscience is the ONLY mandatory criterion for being muslim, and praying is only a means toward that end.
I am elaborating my stance
383 So, do they seek (ways) besides Allah?s resolution (ِ, while whatever is in the heavens and the earth have submitted to Him willingly or under compulsion, and they will be returned to Him?
384 Say, ?We have faith in Allah and what is sent down on us and what was sent down on Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Master. We do not differentiate among any of them and we are submissive (َ to Him.
385 And whoever seeks a resolution (ا other than peace/submission (ِ then never will (it) be accepted from him and in the hereafter he will be among the losers.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
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From the quoted verses 383-85, it is clear to me, that ?whatever is in the heavens and the earth have submitted to Allah willingly or under compulsion??. Does it mean, whatever is in the heavens and the earth ?do good? and ?pray to God?? Do Good yes? because everything (except selected humans/jins) willingly follow their God gifted senses/nature. So they are good or submit to God simply by following their God gifted nature. But ?praying? is irrelevant for a lifeless object or an animal. Since the verse takes this very example to be the ?reason? why humans should ?also? be muslim?? it should suffice for a human to be muslim simply by following their God gifted senses of right and wrong which is built into every human soul - be he an aborigine living in jungle or a secular child born in an irreligious family. The knowledge of God or God (alone) and various moods of prayers are products of learning and culture ? they cannot be considered inherent part of human existence against which the Wise and Just Master of universe would held each human responsible.
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YES Qur?an does tell us to pray. But Why? Let?s hear from Qur?an shall we?
2186 And when My slaves ask you about Me, then indeed I am near. I respond to invitations of the supplicant when he calls Me, So let them respond to Me and let them have faith in Me so that they may be guided aright.
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)
So, clearly purpose of ?praying? is so that we can be guided aright by virtue of which we can end up doing good and being muslim. Thus praying remains a recommended method in Qur?an for seeking God?s help in staying on right course, IT IS NOT AN END IN ITSELF.
Thus I am convinced, PRAYING is the best or recommended method for one person to be guided aright but it is NOT the only method. Our Master guides to the straight route whomever He wills. The end result that does matter is who can be guided aright and live a righteous life.
Then what do I have to say about those who pray to other than God or to an incorrect idea of God? Let me share my understanding. If they are praying out of ignorance, but when comes to taking moral decisions they still submit to Allah by upholding their God-gifted senses of right and wrong then they are muslim ? who are ignorant (zahil). Their ignorance is a vice which makes them highly susceptible to deviation, but the ignorance cannot be a crime by itself. However, if they are praying to someone other than God or some artificial deity to circumvent their God gifted senses of right and wrong (e.g. ISIS / BOKO Haram who are pray to deity ?Allah? who want them to do inhuman things), or so that the ?partner? can negotiate with Allah and give them leeway from acting righteously (e.g. the "Crusaders"/Nazis hoped that Jesus would shield them against whatever crime they commit against humanity) ? then and only then they are committing ?Shirk? which goes down as an ?Unforgivable sin.? - unless they truly repent and revert in time.
That?s all for now ? I?d look forward to discuss with you if you want to continue this discussion.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Truthseeker,
No, the initials cannot mean anything. No comprehensible text would have a sole letter and then a conjunction straight after that. The letters DO mean to carry a meaning of their own.
refers to follow/conceive what is good, while refers to follow/conceive mere being, i.e. your ways. I said behavior before, but this has been used against me in all sorts of arguments such as ambiguity.
The letter itself means good and that is why it is used in all sorts of root words that refer to good in ways. Want examples? , . Obviously they do not mean the same, but they utilize 'good' to form what they want to convey. Note that 'good' is an interpretation and that the letters are of the simplest possible abstract meaning.
The people ask Shu'ayb if his ways mean they have to do this or that. Not that he channeled or had connection by that word.
Mind one's ways is a general expression if you know. It is timeless. It is just what a majority of people fail to keep in mind.
And look, the word means "conceive to be", how you lead your life. If you want to be evil that is your choice, but it is pretty obvious if someone tells you to mind who you are then you know what is expected. Salawa refers to just that. And the message in Quran is just that about finding the right spirit. And that you do if you realize who you are.
Salaam
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I would disagree with this assertion, and say that ?Doing Good" (i.e. acting righteously) per our God gifted conscience is the ONLY mandatory criterion for being muslim, and praying is only a means toward that end.
Salamun Alaikum.
I would like to propose a small correction in the above statement
I would disagree with this assertion, and say that ?Doing Good" (i.e. acting righteously) with due sincerety per our God gifted conscience is the ONLY mandatory criterion for being muslim, and praying is only a means toward that end.
It was important to make this correction because doing good with the intention of show-off may not be sufficient for being muslim / salvation.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman