Does Islam allow homosexuality?
-
Peace all,
Thought I'd stick one or two of my thoughts into this soup.-
Let's be very careful to judge things we don't understand. Unless you're a homosexual yourself, don't claim to understand it what it is or how it feels.
-
I was watching a documentary. They apparently found that the women-folk in the family of the gay man, one average, produced many more children that women-folk that did not have a close gay relative. So, while people were saying that homosexuality doesn't make sense in a biological evolutionary sense, because gays don't tend to reproduce, the women-folk in their families made up for this "loss of gene forwarding" by having much more babies.
-
Let's not just think of homosexuality as something to do with genitals. It's the attraction to the same sex that makes someone gay, not having sex with a same sex person.
-
There always seems to be exceptions to norms in this life. Gays are an exception to heterosexuals. Everything seems to be distributed on that famous bell curves... you know, according to standard deviation. Extremes exist in all directions. Who says homosexuality doesn't fit into the totally normal distribution of values along the line between two extremes?
-
Is it really a sound argument that homosexuality is wrong/unnatural just because the rectum is not designed for harboring the penis. Does homosexuality start with sex? No.
-
How bad is homosexuality compared to other things that "normal" people engage in, such as lying, fraud, murder, theft, meanness, arrogance, deceit, violence, rape, slander, gossip, back-biting, abandoning your family, not giving love to you family... etc? How is homosexuality hurting your fellow human being?
I just wanted to pose these ideas. Personally, I don't understand homosexuality enough to judge it. I'm not homosexual, but I believe in live-and-let-live. Let' be careful before we judge each other. Let's not be arrogant. God know what we don't know.
Peace
-
-
Thanks for speaking out Zulf. Still interested to know if you think Quran speaks on this topic or not.
-
Salaam Zulf,
I understand and agree with your input.
I am not judging homosexuals but I was trying to make logical hypotheses based on available information and my own knowledge of psychology as well as physiology. I am safe to say there are people who are gay due to trends and peer affection. It is not very strange because with the physical body detached from the spirit (soul) we are asexual and then we can influence our bodies to gain homosexual signals/functions. There are also traces of the female design "code" in men making it fully possible to be attracted to a male physical pattern while being male yourself. Most men will suppress this due to stereotypes and the plain fact they know how the bodies are designed a certain way. While I still had my wildlife some years ago in my youth I was observant that often men in my company would show attraction to fellow man after certain consumption of alcohol. Due to the difference between our consciousness and the physical body one can choose attraction consciously oneself. But we usually suppress this and do not let ourselves think that way.
It ought to be a logical statement to say the physical body the souls of humans possess are anatomically designed for heterosexual reproduction.
I am neither for nor against homosexuality but I am only a neutral observer and made as unbiased input as I could based on my level of knowledge and wisdom. And I could befriend a gay and I have had such company in the past. But yet we must know the facts and not hide anything from what is logical. I know it is political suicide to speak negatively about this topic, but I say as diplomatically as I can.
But from a perspective leaving the flesh behind for the realm of Allah homosexuality is no big deal. Our sexes only exist for this temporary illusion.
And as for the story with Lot the real sins here were robbery, plundering, slavery, rape and the homosexual intercourse was the least of the problem, if any. It may however be subtly implied by the interpretations I have read and my current ability to decipher the Arabic that homosexuality is not approved of based on the offer of the daughters by Lot and the crowd said that he should know what they are after. I have not been able to understand it in any other way than that the narratives concerning Lot involve a negative view of homosexuality.
And homosexuality is a worldly venture and is not productive except for instinctive pleasure for the bodies we posses. But you could say the same about the drive to masturbate for a heterosexual person with the image of a woman in their mind. The point for a spiritually ascended person is rather what is worth indulging in when it comes to worldliness.
I am not saying this because I have some sectarian background but I am from an atheist background and I speak entirely out of my spiritual ascension and the physical detachment from this world. I personally myself restrict how much I give in to instinctive signals, but I do NOT dogmatically tell others what they MUST do (or else I).
Salaam
-
Student of Allah,
I am not on anyone's side.
And I use Quran for spiritual guidance and it was whatever interpretation I could come up with without fabricating something which is does not say.
And I said that the anatomical designs of same-sex people are not designed for copulation, even of course a man can put the penis into the rectum of another man, albeit this is still not the anatomical design.
And we can be homosexual and find pleasure if we so like. It is a stereotype and our acquired gender roles which prevents ourselves. So it is a trend in the "Western" world with indulging in homosexuality.
And I wrote natural as in what can be confirmed empirically in nature. You can see occurrences with animals involved in homosexual acts. There are also born humans who are clearly homosexual from childbirth. Yet you can gain nothing but instinctive pleasure from giving in to the beast you are. A person who does not want this world could as well abstain from it, since in this case the copulation yields no productive results. If they are like animals they may as well continue, it does not matter to me.
Salaam
-
Thanks for speaking out Zulf. Still interested to know if you think Quran speaks on this topic or not.
I haven't looked into the matter... whether or not it talks about homosexuality. I really don't know.
I do know however that we should not jump to conclusions and then stick to them. We need to realize that we may need to upgrade our perspectives at times. There is so much we don't know, and the interpretation of the quran is no joke and nothing to be taken lightly and to be rushed.Peace
-
I haven't looked into the matter... whether or not it talks about homosexuality. I really don't know.
I do know however that we should not jump to conclusions and then stick to them. We need to realize that we may need to upgrade our perspectives at times. There is so much we don't know, and the interpretation of the quran is no joke and nothing to be taken lightly and to be rushed.Peace
Very well said brother Zulf. Couldn't agree more.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.Regards,
Arman -
I haven't looked into the matter... whether or not it talks about homosexuality. I really don't know.
I do know however that we should not jump to conclusions and then stick to them. We need to realize that we may need to upgrade our perspectives at times. There is so much we don't know, and the interpretation of the quran is no joke and nothing to be taken lightly and to be rushed.Peace
I understand from this you haven't researched it properly. Sure rushing to conclusions and sticking to them is a bad idea. If you have researched it properly enough though, I think it's worth sharing your findings. If that's not permitted anymore we might as well shut down the forum.
-
I understand from this you haven't researched it properly. Sure rushing to conclusions and sticking to them is a bad idea. If you have researched it properly enough though, I think it's worth sharing your findings. If that's not permitted anymore we might as well shut down the forum.
True. I agree.
And once we have researched it properly, we should remain open. We never know what new insights we may gain, on the same topic. This is the attitude we need to have towards everything in life. We should do our best in understanding things, honestly, and then act in the best possible and holistic manner.
Peace and kind regards
-
Agreed. I spend a lot of time researching this topic in Quran. So far I didn't find any counterevidence. I'm open to quality counterevidence.
-
Prophet Lut received the Book of the Prophets - Ummul Kitab, which all Prophets received. The Judgement stated in the Book of the Prophets were first issued to the people of Abraham, as a directive and later additional directive were given to Musa for his people. These directives makes the Book of Musa, which Dawood received in a form of a section . This was the Tawrat. In it stated clearly
Leviticus 1822 - Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 2013 - If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
So where does it says homosexuality law was abrogated by the later Prophets???
The current Torah is not the same as the original. Moses didn't write the current Torah, it even announce his death. The current
Torah was written at a later date. -
The current Torah is not the same as the original. Moses didn't write the current Torah, it even announce his death. The current
Torah was written at a later date.There are still some truth in the current Torah.
You said that homosexuality law was abrogated by the later Prophet. Where is your proof?
In the Quran 0415 is referring to the prostitutes.
Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your WOMEN - bring against them four from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them way.
It is clear that the above verse is referring to women who committed lewdness and the judgement has already been finalized that is they are to be confined - a jail term.
So in 0416 is confirmed referring to homosexual
And the TWO WHO COMMIT IT AMONG YOU ALL, PUNISH THEM BOTH. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
In the Quran, usually verse like the 0416, which states "AMONG YOU ALL" refers to men, especially when the referring to women, like in 0415 has already been mentioned. But punishment is not explicit. Punishment by death is rule out considering that - "if they repent and correct themselves". And further in the following verse -
0417 - ALLAH accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards, it is they to whom ALLAH will forgive and ALLAH is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.
-
There are still some truth in the current Torah.
You said that homosexuality law was abrogated by the later Prophet. Where is your proof?
In the Quran 0415 is referring to the prostitutes.
Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your WOMEN - bring against them four from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them way.
It is clear that the above verse is referring to women who committed lewdness and the judgement has already been finalized that is they are to be confined - a jail term.
So in 0416 is confirmed referring to homosexual
And the TWO WHO COMMIT IT AMONG YOU ALL, PUNISH THEM BOTH. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
In the Quran, usually verse like the 0416, which states "AMONG YOU ALL" refers to men, especially when the referring to women, like in 0415 has already been mentioned. But punishment is not explicit. Punishment by death is rule out considering that - "if they repent and correct themselves". And further in the following verse -
0417 - ALLAH accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards, it is they to whom ALLAH will forgive and ALLAH is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.
Your whole argument stands or falls with the meaning of fahisha. There is no evidence for it to include sins of sexual nature. Quran nowhere supports this idea. Examples of what fahisha can consist of are to be found in Quran, nowhere does the list contain anything referring to sexuality. Equalling fahisha with homosexuality or anything related to sex whatsoever is only supported by hadith and tradition. Not Quran.
fahisha (FA, HA, SH) meaning something ugly, abomination, immorality.
Other occurences 6151, 2169, 1224, 1224
None of them fit the explanation of homosexuality. It's a general word used for something immoral. To find out what is immoral we have to look at the whole Quran. Saying this Fahisha is proof for condemning homosexuality is for any logic mind a circular argumentation. In 1224 it is mentioned alongside transgression. It's a general label for immorality. We do find examples in Quran what this immorality can consist of such as killing children, the murder of oneself and the murder of others as in 6151. The list however does not contain homosexuality.
-
Your whole argument stands or falls with the meaning of fahisha. There is no evidence for it to include sins of sexual nature. Quran nowhere supports this idea. Examples of what fahisha can consist of are to be found in Quran, nowhere does the list contain anything referring to sexuality. Equalling fahisha with homosexuality or anything related to sex whatsoever is only supported by hadith and tradition. Not Quran.
fahisha (FA, HA, SH) meaning something ugly, abomination, immorality.
Other occurences 6151, 2169, 1224, 1224
None of them fit the explanation of homosexuality. It's a general word used for something immoral. To find out what is immoral we have to look at the whole Quran. Saying this Fahisha is proof for condemning homosexuality is for any logic mind a circular argumentation. In 1224 it is mentioned alongside transgression. It's a general label for immorality. We do find examples in Quran what this immorality can consist of such as killing children, the murder of oneself and the murder of others as in 6151. The list however does not contain homosexuality.
So you know exactly what is the meaning of FA HA SHIN and yet in your vocabulary it does not apply to homosexuality.
Nowhere in the Books of ALLAH that ever mentioned HE SUPPORTS HOMOSEXUAL. The only sexual relations that a man can have with is with a woman and that is thru after a scared covenant made between them.
peace
-
So you know exactly what is the meaning of FA HA SHIN and yet in your vocabulary it does not apply to homosexuality.
Nowhere in the Books of ALLAH that ever mentioned HE SUPPORTS HOMOSEXUAL. The only sexual relations that a man can have with is with a woman and that is thru after a scared covenant made between them.
peace
What about those who don't fit into the category of either male or female?
-
So you know exactly what is the meaning of FA HA SHIN and yet in your vocabulary it does not apply to homosexuality.
I see no reason for it why I should consider homosexuality to be immoral. We're not discussing personal moral values here. We're discussing Qurans moral value system, which does not mention it at all. Are all things not mentioned in Quran forbidden to you? In that case, posting on this forum is immoral. Sneezing is immoral.
Nowhere in the Books of ALLAH that ever mentioned HE SUPPORTS HOMOSEXUAL. The only sexual relations that a man can have with is with a woman and that is thru after a scared covenant made between them.
That can be your personal opinion. But where does Quran tell you that?
-
What about those who don't fit into the category of either male or female?
If you are referring to hermaphrodite, well I saw a documentary on this. Two individual who are born hermaphrodite .
The documentary tells of a 2 year old hermophrodite who went for surgery when the doctors discover scrotum in lower part of the stomach.
The doctors managed to fix the problem and the hermaphrodite became an "official boy". Unfortunately, he cannot have a normal sexual life.The other one, checked by doctors and found to be more to the female side and officially became a woman. Also cannot reproduce.
-
I see no reason for it why I should consider homosexuality to be immoral. We're not discussing personal moral values here. We're discussing Qurans moral value system, which does not mention it at all. Are all things not mentioned in Quran forbidden to you? In that case, posting on this forum is immoral. Sneezing is immoral.
"And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 1689)
What part of it did you do not understand? What are the things not mentioned? If you post yourself naked, that is immoral. If sneezing is immoral to you, I can only say that you making thing difficult for yourself.
That can be your personal opinion. But where does Quran tell you that?
It is not my personal opinion, the Quran says in 0419 - 21
O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.
But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount , do not take from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin?
And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant?
It is very clear from these verses that shows a relationship between a man and woman. If you read further on after verse 21, it tells us who are those women who we can marry and who we cannot. Does the Quran needs to tell us men, such as
"O you who believe, you cannot marry of similar gender or have sexual relationship with them. These are immoral act"
Do you really need that explanation when ALLAH has given the faculties of intelligence, seeing and hearing, so we can use our intelligence to reflect and ponder over.
I have got a friend who have GID. He keep on telling me that it is a born defect. He is a normal guy with normal brain like any one of us and indirectly he accused GOD of making a mistake by creating him a guy.
What I conclude from these individuals is that they have a physiological problem.
peace
-
There are still some truth in the current Torah.
You said that homosexuality law was abrogated by the later Prophet. Where is your proof?
In the Quran 0415 is referring to the prostitutes.
Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your WOMEN - bring against them four from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them way.
It is clear that the above verse is referring to women who committed lewdness and the judgement has already been finalized that is they are to be confined - a jail term.
So in 0416 is confirmed referring to homosexual
And the TWO WHO COMMIT IT AMONG YOU ALL, PUNISH THEM BOTH. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
In the Quran, usually verse like the 0416, which states "AMONG YOU ALL" refers to men, especially when the referring to women, like in 0415 has already been mentioned. But punishment is not explicit. Punishment by death is rule out considering that - "if they repent and correct themselves". And further in the following verse -
0417 - ALLAH accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards, it is they to whom ALLAH will forgive and ALLAH is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.
Just one question, what if these two women got married to each other and then had sex?
Allah forbids sex before marriage. No special right is given to even us heterosexual couples who are still not married.I feel its too early to make up mind about whether homosexuality is purely based on choice and thus means going against the nature created by Allah. I am quite used to seeing people who still don't know they are gay, but I have idea about it because of their slanted figures, feminine movement, emotions and voice. Such people are usually bullied by their heterosexual friends for not being "manly". They are hated and separated. But just tell me if how they are is truly their fault?
Research is still up. Below you will find a collection of them.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
-
The (real) 'Torah' is only a few pages big and contains limited instructions and wise words to follow. This information was given thousands of years ago and things were not usually written down but transmitted verbally. The actual written information was limited to inscriptions in stone on tablets and include ten lines of information.
If you have a Torah more than that it is an unsafe source. Only the prescriptions of Allah and the beacon Moses is to be followed, the rest is fabrications.
And not even the list of "commandments" is free from distortion when transferred from the original tablets.
Just as Quran does not teach a religion but are for spiritual guidance then the brief teachings of Moses were also for such a purpose.
And the one who follows the real Torah and also the elaboration by Jesus on that decree needs nothing else and the decree will never change. Quran is good knowledge, but it is far from a must have since it only elaborates on what is already with people and in my opinion Jesus did it well. If one does not reinterpret Quran it only risks to make a person deluded and confused.
The information from the prophets were never supposed to cover every detail of life but teach about spiritual affinity. Quran is a manual for a person who decides on picking up the way of preaching the faith and help people with guidance. Its 'say' commands are intended as an instruction on how to speak based on situation if one pursues such a responsibility. The problem is that a grand majority of the passages are misrepresenting the whole scripture in their current interpretations.
Just look at the salateh word. A grand majority of people who chose to adhere to the text became deluded by it into making it a stupid ritual when to gain salat is to be taught perception. This is the real Musalla, i.e. a seminar done by an enlightened person such as a cleric.
Salaam
-
There are still some truth in the current Torah.
No, not at all. The current Torah was written for literally millennia after Moses death, whereas he would have lived for allegedly 3000 years ago. The original Torah would have been an stone inscription of the 10 commandments and that's it, all the rest would have been oral sayings by the Priest Moses transmitted through traditions for over thousands years, how much altering would have been able for thousands of years? I tell you, a lot. Even modern historians agree nothing in the current Torah is even remotely the same as that of Moses' original Torah.According to John Riches, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow "The consensus of scholarship is that the stories are taken from four different written sources and that these were brought together over the course of time to form the first five books of the Bible as a composite work. The sources are known as J, the Jahwist source (from the German transliteration of the Hebrew YHWH), E, the Elohist source, P, the priestly source, and D, the Deuteronomist source. ... Thus the Pentateuch (or Torah, as it is known by Jews) comprises material taken from six centuries of human history, which has been put together to give a comprehensive picture of the creation of the world and of God's dealings with his peoples, specifically with the people of Israel."
Even if we are to say some things are still the true in the Torah, why should it of all the 5 books that Quran constantly refutes against, the five books filled with polytheistic teachings, historical inaccuracies, scientific inaccuracies, have your specific verse (nowhere to have an analog to in the Quran) be true? Why not one of the many immoral teachings by the crazy rabbis with their barbaric mentalities?
How can you prove out of that verse, out of the five earliest and most historical inaccurate books, contains the certain truth, even though the verse is attributed to different authors of different times and Quran never quotes a similar verse?
Also as for my proof, as I said, Quran in 1880, which takes place during Moses time, calls the two parents of the evil son for "fathers" and pious "believers," meaning that Quran approves of homosexual Muslims and that Lot's individual teachings to his individual people were abrogated by Moses, a millennium later.
In ancient Egypt during Moses time was not uncommon, many had homosexual practices back then and many speculate if the many pharaohs were perhaps homosexuals. I don't understand why Moses would have changed on this.
Also, further proof, King David (peace be upon him) was in a homosexual relationship with Jonathan (may God be pleased with him), which many scholars whom have read the tale considered to be homosexual. It is also a closer and more accurate, historically speaking, of David and from much more reliable sources.