Question for the people with knowledge
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to me the mala'ka are not included in the min dabbatin. Whether they are on earth or heaven or somehwere else or nowhere, is beside the point, but they are treated outside that clause.
It is a very interesting question in fact. Movement is a feature of matter. How do we consider mala'ika? As yet I have not made any specific consideration of angels and therefore have not arrived at anything final either. May be I am still under the "shaping" of the catholic teachings on them.
Hope more light is brought on this.
Salaam
Well i checked the root word of Malaika and it's Miim-Lam-Kaf = to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority, king, kingdom.
Also see root Lam-Alif-Kaf
malaka vb. (1)
perf. act. 43, 424, 425, 436, 1671, 236, 2431, 2433, 2458, 2461, 3028, 3350, 3352, 3355, 7030
impf. act. 517, 525, 541, 576, 7188, 1031, 1049, 1316, 1673, 1756, 17100, 1987, 2089, 253, 253, 2723, 2917, 3422, 3442, 3513, 3943, 4386, 468, 4811, 604, 7221, 7837, 8219
n.vb. (1) malk 2087
n.vb. (2) mulk 2102, 2107, 2247, 2247, 2247, 2248, 2251, 2258, 326, 326, 326, 3189, 453, 454, 517, 518, 540, 5120, 673, 7158, 9116, 12101, 17111, 20120, 2256, 2442, 252, 252, 2526, 3513, 3810, 3820, 3835, 396, 3944, 4016, 4029, 4249, 4351, 4385, 4527, 4814, 572, 575, 641, 671, 7620, 859
pcple. act. 14, 326, 3671
pcple. pass. 1675malak n.m. 2102, 68, 68, 69, 650, 720, 1112, 1131, 1231, 1795, 257, 3211, 5326, 6917, 8922
malakut n.m. 675, 7185, 2388, 3683
malik n.m. (pl. muluk) 2246, 2247, 520, 1243, 1250, 1254, 1272, 1276, 1879, 20114, 23116, 2734, 5923, 621, 1142
malik n.m. 5455
malik n. prop. 4377
LL, V8, p 277 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=mlk
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Peace huruf.
Yasjudu are both Everything in the heaven and everything on earth on earth Min dabbatin Wa Al Malaika.
Hum La Yastakbirun are also Everything in the heavens and everything on earth Min Dabbatin Wa Al Malaika.
Yakhafoon Rabbahum... are also ... Min dabbatin Wa AL Malaika .
And Yafaloona Ma Yumaroon are also... Min dabbatin Wa Almalaika.
In other words they do all the verbs Sujud,La yastakbirun...etc. Hum is all of them.
This is how I understand it in context with other verses in Qoran like 1315...
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Then you got the willingly and unwillingly living creatures and Malaika in 1649
there is no "willingly or unwillingly" in 1648/49/50
Without "Yastakbirun"(This is not free will arrogance
you can't be arrogant over sp?ething you can't control and that you are not even aware of. I understand that because shadows are said to incline in humiliation (which is a nice metaphor to speak of reality, sayting they "prostrate" is quite a stretch in a non religious standpoint, but lets continue...) you believe that it is the same for living creatures and malaika, that they breath, their heart beat, they eat and urinate...so that makes them not arrogant, fearful, and obedient to what they are commanded....
To be serious i think this is a bit stupid ( in my opinion) and is a stretch from a person who wants to believe. Saying the most rebellious polytheist who burns his own children and curses Allah is humble and does what he is commanded because its a metaphor is completely idiotic in the real world. You have to admit it. And it is your own hypothesis with a very brittle ground, you can't deny this. A lot of qur'anists will not agree with you, yet you are both reading the same "guide for the whole humanity"..and they follow What GOD commands when He creates(GOD s overall laws(Physical laws...etc) and plan).
Again i understand that for you it is the continuity of your metaphor. Now look at it from real world view By raping newborns you do what god has commanded because you obey laws of physics unwillingly.
Now here is my stance if you tell someone to not speak a bad word, and then put something on his mouth so he isn't able to talk, will you say afterwards he did what i told him to? or will you say he doesn't deserve any gratitude for obedience because he didn't have any choice in the matter? How can you say we "obey" the laws of physics? have you ever seen one disobey the laws of physics? we don't obey them because we have no choice in the matter, and no one deserve to be praised as humble and obedient for falling back to the ground after jumping. You only pulled this metaphor because you found a verse which spoke of inclining shadows. I bet I could pull metaphors like this from similar verses if I wanted to make the good verses of the qur'an look very bad.
This is exactly the same subject and contest of 1315.
But 1315 doesn't speak of creatures nor of malaika nor of obedience to the lord when he commands.
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Again i understand that for you it is the continuity of your metaphor. Now look at it from real world view By raping newborns you do what god has commanded because you obey laws of physics unwillingly.
Woah what this about raping newborns?
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But 1315 doesn't speak of creatures nor of malaika nor of obedience to the lord when he commands.
I don't know if this helps but in 1316 it mentions the creations.
1316
Qul man rabbu alssamawatiwaal-ardi quli Allahu qul afaittakhathtummin doonihi awliyaa la yamlikoona li-anfusihimnafAAan wala darran qul hal yastawee al-aAAmawaalbaseeru am hal tastawee alththulumatuwaalnnooru am jaAAaloo lillahi shurakaakhalaqoo kakhalqihi fatashabaha alkhalqu AAalayhim quliAllahu khaliqu kulli shay-in wahuwa alwahidualqahharu
Say "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say "God." Say "Have you taken besides Him allies who do not possess for themselves any benefit or harm?" Say "Is the blind and the seer the same? Or do the darkness and the light equate? Or have they set up partners with God who have created like His creation, so the creations all seemed the same to them?" Say "God has created all things, and He is the One, the Supreme." -
Peace The Sardar.
1315 itself speaks of everything in heaven and on earth Yasjudu to GOD. All the creations .Of course that includes every Dabba and the Malaika.Unless Dabbas and Malaika live somewhere else that is not the heavens and earth?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace The Sardar.
1315 itself speaks of everything in heaven and on earth Yasjudu to GOD. All the creations .Of course that includes every Dabba and the Malaika.Unless Dabbas and Malaika live somewhere else that is not the heavens and earth?
GOD bless you.
Peace.As of right now i have not know any living people that live somewhere else that is not in this worldy material realm.
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Peace The Sardar.
1315 itself speaks of everything in heaven and on earth Yasjudu to GOD. All the creations .Of course that includes every Dabba and the Malaika.Unless Dabbas and Malaika live somewhere else that is not the heavens and earth?
GOD bless you.
Peace.my mistake it indeed speak about who is on earth/heaven in 1315, but
-it says willingly or unwillingly it does not in 1648-50
-my point about doing what you are commanded laws of physics and willful obedience still hold
-its not because two verses looks similar that you may add things from the first verse to the second one ( ie willingly or unwillingly). humility and obedience still doesnt make any sense if you are not even aware (law of physics) -
I saw your "real word view" about raping newborns and i am honestly disturbed by that.
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@Noon waalqalami what i mean ...
we'll stay with Qur'an...
2164 and disperse therein min/of kulli/every/each dabbatin
2445 and the god creation kulla/every/each dabbatin min/of water
3110 and disperse therein min/of kulli/every/each dbbatin638 116 1156 min/of dbbatin
1649 min/of dbbatin wal-malikatu
1661 2960 3545 4229 min/of dabbatin
454 and in creation yours and what dispersed min/of dbbatin signs for folk assured beingIn the verse it is highlights every single dabba -Every creature form all the different creatures.
Well i check in http//quranix.org/16#49, d?bbatin is in feminine genitive definite INDEF noun
correct -- groups, creatures, towns, etc. (feminine) exception malikatu (masculine; need to use context or when speaking it's feminine 345 when said (f) the controllers) thus each "type" not every "individual" which requires kulli/every.
As I understand it and appears in at least some translation,
those who postrate to God are
everything that is on earth and heavens that moves,
al mala'ika
The mala'ka are not arrogant.
yes of each type not "every" individual see 2218 & 2725 all/that NOT yasjud to god
Well i checked the root word of Malaika and it's Miim-Lam-Kaf = to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority, king, kingdom.
Correct which control can be given and/or taken away.
People do not read precisely often assume every/each individual when the word "every" is not present.
1315 and to god yasjudu entities (unnamed) in the heavens/skies and the land like of/willingly and dislike of/unwillingly and shadows theirs in the early mornings and the late afternoons
1315 should be read together with 2218 which further explains which entities.
2218 did not see that the god yasjudu to him entities in the heavens/skies and entities in the land and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the vegetation (e.g. plants, trees, etc.) and the creatures and much (i.e. not all/every) mina/of l-nsi/the humankind ?
1684 2783 2875 min/of kulli/every/each community
155 min/of community2266 757 min/of kulli/every/each the fruits
133 1611 wamin/and of kulli/every/each the fruits
1669 furthermore eat min/of kulli/every/each the fruits
4715 and for them therein min/of kulli/every/each the fruits1667 wamin/and of fruits the date palms and the grapevines
3634 therein gardens min/of date palms and grapevines
4147 and not it evict min/of fruits min/from cover its/theirs3058 and surely strike we of to the humankind in this the qur?an/recitation min/of kulli/every/each similitude
Peace!
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Salaam The Sardar
I wrote "Still you think that non Arabs cannot know Arabic." Emphasis was on red part.
Oh.....but what does that mean exactly?
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Peace Ju5.
I am clarifying why I think we will be both wasting our time discussing Qoran.
A- You are not willing to look at the whole Qoran and its contexts.
B- I do not think you are sincerely seeking answers ,it seems you have an agenda of "Qoran has many contradiction" with already made up mind about it.I will ask you to reconsider, by showing you why you do not really understand Sujud to GOD in 1649.
1- You are not comparing other verses and searching for the context and subject.
2- You claim Malaika are not arrogant and follow GOD s commands hence234 contradicts 1649, what about Sujud to GOD before that in the verse where everything does Sujud to GOD? Does this also contradict 234 according to your understanding?
3- Does Sujud to GOD not include non arrogance ,reverence and following GOD s commands?
4-If you agree that everything in the heavens and everything on earth are doing Sujud to God,then does this not contradict also according to your understanding?
So what is this Sujud to God in 1649?
Let me explain, using the whole Qoran and its context what is Sujud to GOD and why this particular Sujud to GOD includes non arrogance, reverence and following GOD s commands for all the creations. (Sujud to GOD in 1649)
1- This is not about prostrating to GOD or Worship . This about acceptance of One GOD. There is only The GOD and His domain. All the creations must accept this because that is all there is. There is no other GOD. GOD has said be and it is ,GOD has created and planned and commanded and all creations are following this plan and purpose . Hence everything in the heavens and on earth does "Sujud to GOD".
This is the message in all scriptures . There is only one GOD Everything belongs to God ,everything returns to GOD everything is planned and is following GOD s plan perfectly. To be arrogant of this is impossible, to not be aware/reverencing of GOD is impossible to not follow GOD s commands (including the command of planning free will for his creations and not creating good or bad robots).
That is why after 1649 GOD says Wa Kala Allah La Tattakhidu Ilahaini... There is no other god with a different domain.
Also after 13;15 GOD says Who is the GOD of the heavens and earth?...Have you got other gods that create better creations orother domains?...2- This sujud to GOD has to include non arrogance and following GOD s commands by all the creations, GOD s plan and purpose cannot be reversed or changed.
Put simply this is the reality, there is only one GOD and everything belongs to Him , all GOD s creations are doing this Sujud to GOD because there is no other god or anything that will override it.
Lastly I do not need to defend Qoran. Qoran is here for the last 1450 years and will remain here. It is defending itself from all corrupters.
GOD is the reality everything else is falsehood
As you can see ,if you have problems with Malaika I do not know why you have not got problems with other creations like humans, surely according to your understanding "Sujud to GOD" contradicts with disbelievers and wicked folk? How can they be doing Sujud to GOD?My simple advice is Ponder Qoran and its content as a whole and give it a fair go if you are sincere.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
From her posts it appeared to me that she thinks that non-Arabs cannot understand and comprehend Arabic properly.
Not if we are going to contradict allknowing Ju5, but if there are non Arabs, like orientalists and experts in big universities in Europe or America and they say the kind of thinks that allkowing Ju5 likes, I guess that is different. The same as it would be different if, as it very often happens, it turn out that quite knowledgeable Arabic speakers happen to agree with us non Arabs that dare think by ourselves without worrying about allknowing Ju5 and others of her ilk.
Salaam
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Not if we are going to contradict allknowing Ju5, but if there are non Arabs, like orientalists and experts in big universities in Europe or America and they say the kind of thinks that allkowing Ju5 likes, I guess that is different. The same as it would be different if, as it very often happens, it turn out that quite knowledgeable Arabic speakers happen to agree with us non Arabs that dare think by ourselves without worrying about allknowing Ju5 and others of her ilk.
Salaam
Like Pazuzu & Uq?
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Like Pazuzu, UQ, Layth and many others. Some I know personally, some I have exchanges with them.
This, as much as this bloke Ju5 would like to present it, is not a contest of Arabs against non Arabs, but of people who seek knowledge and understanding as against people who hide from knowledge and understanding, lest their whole mental building crashes down on them.
As the Gospels say let the dead bury their dead.
Salaam
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Like Pazuzu, UQ, Layth and many others. Some I know personally, some I have exchanges with them.
This, as much as this bloke Ju5 would like to present it, is not a contest of Arabs against non Arabs, but of people who seek knowledge and understanding as against people who hide from knowledge and understanding, lest their whole mental building crashes down on them.
As the Gospels say let the dead bury their dead.
Salaam
Now let's get too personal here, i don't want this discussion get too heated as it already is.
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@good logic
disclaimer 2218 shows that "moving creatures doesn't necessarily speak of humans
2218 Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.2- You claim Malaika are not arrogant and follow GOD s commands hence234 contradicts 1649, what about Sujud to GOD before that in the verse where everything does Sujud to GOD? Does this also contradict 234 according to your understanding?
the contradiction is about iblis not doing what he has been commanded to, and being qualified by allah as arrogant, not about "sujud to god"
1- This is not about prostrating to GOD or Worship . This about acceptance of One GOD. There is only The GOD and His domain. All the creations must accept this because that is all there is. There is no other GOD. GOD has said be and it is ,GOD has created and planned and commanded and all creations are following this plan and purpose . Hence everything in the heavens and on earth does "Sujud to GOD".
refutation polytheists. They sujud to many gods, you like it or not. God even tells them to stop and some don't listen...you can't deny this, its written in the qur'an, although i acknowledge your ability to deny what is written black on white in the qur'an.PS stop talking about "sujud to god". Later in the verse god says moving creatures do what they are commanded and are not arrogant. If it was the same thing god wouldn't have added these words after "sujud to allah" because it would be self sufficient. Furthermore words have a meaning. If god says malaika do what they are commanded, it means what it means. If you show this verse to anyone not called "good logic" he will probably say "it means they always obey". The ONLY reason you don't admit it is because it induces a contradiction. Therefore the thing keeping you from understanding is not logic, it is bias. I believe therefore it can't be wrong and here s why. The correct methodology would be It is true therefore i believe.
You tell me it doesn't mean that because its written earlier "everything sujud to god". This is irrelevant. I am speaking about the part of the verse saying "malaika do what they are commanded". and "they are not arrogant". I did tell some good arguments about this so i advise you to read again my previous post about this. Allow me to not have to copy paste the same posts over and over because i feel i am repeating myself. I AM considering your posts. Please do the same for mine. No i am not convinced. Saying They don't always obey because earlier they sujud to god so it is about "sujuding" to god is not convincing one bit. And won't probably convince a lot of people. Reality catches up to you here. If you want to believe its about sujuding to god because of your faith then admit it. And stop claiming logic.
