Question for the people with knowledge

The_Sardar

it s written that he is a malaka in 234. why would you need a verse to show that jinn can never disobey. the solution is not saying " it is not possible to be both Jinn and malaka" because it is written nowhere in the qur'an. the solution is the qur'an contradicted itself . If you say iblis is not a malaka you contradict allah. if you say iblis is a malaka then the qur'an is not perfect.

Never said anything about not possible being both Jinn & Malaika and also never said that i need the verse saying Jinn never disobeying.

The_Sardar

Also 1850 clarifies that Iblis was of Jinn, if he was a malaika then Allah would have never said that he was of Jinn. (Sorry if this sounds repeating.)

The_Sardar

Also i found the next verse quite interesting, i'll post 1850 to 51. Don't know this could help us but here you go

1850
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahuwathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakumAAaduwwun bi/sa lilththalimeena badalan
And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Iblis. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

1851
Ma ashhadtuhum khalqa alssamawatiwaal-ardi wala khalqa anfusihim wamakuntu muttakhitha almudilleena AAadudan
I did not make them witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I take the misleaders as helpers.

good_logic

Peace Ju5.
Read your posts again. All you are doing is showing your ignorance of Qoran.
You are confusing sujud to GOD and free wiill. You do not understand that part of GOD s commands is for you ,me and others to choose their own god and destiny. GOD has not created robots or is forcing His creations to accept His kingdom.
You are basically saying that there is no sujud to GOD if some creations disobey GOD!!!
You are confusing GOD s will and free will .
You will find hundreds of contradictions unless you study Qoran from beginning to end with a sincere heart and mind . Wash your head from bias and following false understanding of others and false translations.
Or ,stop wasting your time with Qoran .
Or keep selling your wrong assumptions, wrong misconceptions and understanding .It is clear and obvious to those who study Qoran that you do not know what Qoran is really saying.
No doubt you will keep on coming back repeating your false understanding and claiming that it is clear to you.
If it is that clear to you why are you even bothering with Qoran.
To me this is the real contradiction, you wasting your time on something wrong and contradictory.
Nothing more to say to you or to add to this topic.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

@Noon waalqalami
When i said general statement, i meant it wasn't specific about malaika (like a part of them, most of them..). It just says "The malaika". I am not a native english, i misused "general statement".

Since there is no context for malaika except "whatever in the earth and whatever in the heaven of..", Allah surely speaks of all malaika, because allah is not a guy in a bar, and doesn't make "general statements", his words are truth always. So if he says malaika do what they are commanded, then it is so.

1-You didn't debunk my argument in any way
2-You backed it up by admitting it speaks of each species.

This is simple logic; each species is not same as each entity.

3-Are you claiming some animals are not signs from allah for the people?

It says each type is a sign e.g. monkeys, etc. ? ?Jus? is not same as Ju5.

454 and in creation yours and what dispersed min/of dbbatin signs for folk assured being

1-groups are always made of individual members, you can still speak about all of them
2-malaika is masculine anyway so why do you even bother

because of l- before malaika its "the" malaika so we must know who they are. but the verse doesn't tell us who they are, its not" the malaika i saw near the grocery store" neither "the malaika who stole my bike". Its The Malaika, There is no way it doesn't speak of all of them.

Groups have subgroups; read exactly as it is written not make erroneous assumptions.

822 indeed worst l-dawbi/the creatures near/with the god the deaf the dumb the ones not reasoning

2275 the god designated mina/from (subset) the controllers messengers of and from (subset) the humankind indeed the god hearer seer

1649 min/of dbbatin wal-malikatu

min/of shayin/thing ? NOT SAME AS ? kulli/every shayin/thing

2445 and the god creation kulla/every dabbatin from water so among them entities walked/crawled on belly its and among them entities walked on feet two (includes humankind) and among them entities walked on fours created the god what willed indeed the god on kulli/each thing supreme

https//s10.postimg.org/byw7w4kg9/Ahlwardt_305_ch21v18-32.jpg

Ju5

Peace Ju5.
Read your posts again. All you are doing is showing your ignorance of Qoran.
You are confusing sujud to GOD and free wiill. You do not understand that part of GOD s commands is for you ,me and others to choose their own god and destiny. GOD has not created robots or is forcing His creations to accept His kingdom.
You are basically saying that there is no sujud to GOD if some creations disobey GOD!!!
You are confusing GOD s will and free will .
You will find hundreds of contradictions unless you study Qoran from beginning to end with a sincere heart and mind . Wash your head from bias and following false understanding of others and false translations.
Or ,stop wasting your time with Qoran .
Or keep selling your wrong assumptions, wrong misconceptions and understanding .It is clear and obvious to those who study Qoran that you do not know what Qoran is really saying.
No doubt you will keep on coming back repeating your false understanding and claiming that it is clear to you.
If it is that clear to you why are you even bothering with Qoran.
To me this is the real contradiction, you wasting your time on something wrong and contradictory.
Nothing more to say to you or to add to this topic.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

i am sorry but your hypothesis about sujud to god, they do what they are commanded meaning that gods bends everything to his will because hes all powerfull and that none challenge his great plan is not compatible with the "they fear their lord above him" "they are not arrogant" parts. Please don't be dishonest.
I agree that one can be part of a great divine plan, and that none of his deeds will alter this plan, but you can't, because of god omnipotence, proceed to say that because of this unstoppable might the ones who are subject to it(and even unaware of it!) are fearful of their lord and not arrogant.

Ever atheists crimanals may be usbject to gods plan, and not alter it in anyway, and may be manipulated by god in order to do one thing, but to say that they fear their Lord... This is wrong.

The_Sardar

Ever atheists crimanals may be usbject to gods plan, and not alter it in anyway, and may be manipulated by god in order to do one thing, but to say that they fear their Lord... This is wrong.

I don't think criminals are subjects to Allah/God's (SWTAY) plans.

1690
Inna Allaha ya/muru bialAAadliwaal-ihsani wa-eeta-i theealqurba wayanha AAani alfahsha-i waalmunkariwaalbaghyi yaAAithukum laAAallakum tathakkaroona
God orders justice and goodness and that you shall help your relatives, and He prohibits immorality and vice and transgression. He warns you that you may remember.

The_Sardar

Unless of course they redeem of their crimes.

The_Sardar

You can find it's use of the word adl or justice in Quran. See the root word Ayn-Dal-Lam in Project Root List. http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm and the verses that contains adl 248, 2123, 2282, 2282, 458, 595, 595, 5106, 670, 6115, 1676, 1690, 499, 652

P.S Sorry for getting off-topic. Trying clarify my point.

Ju5

@noon waalqalami

you keep saying it speaks of all species and not of every individual, so im asking you again, please answer in few basic words are you claiming some individuals among species are not signs from Allah?

2275 the god designated mina/from (subset) the controllers messengers of and from (subset) the humankind indeed the god hearer seer

This verse is clear , it says "of malaika", so you are right, but

1649 says prostrate what is in the earth and in heavens of creatures and malaika. It clearly means that if any angel or creature lies in earth or in heavens, then it prostrates. Hence it speaks of all of them.This is pretty straightforward and i believe that you are dishonest on purpose but i could be wrong, whatever.

finally please cease saying "kulli", min can speak of all according to context without the need of the word kulli and i showed proof of that earlier

The_Sardar

@noon waalqalami

you keep saying it speaks of all species and not of every individual, so im asking you again, please answer in few basic words are you claiming some individuals among species are not signs from Allah?

Correct me if i missed something but when i checked Noon's response he mentioned about sub-groups

Groups have subgroups; read exactly as it is written not make erroneous assumptions.

822 indeed worst l-dawbi/the creatures near/with the god the deaf the dumb the ones not reasoning

2275 the god designated mina/from (subset) the controllers messengers of and from (subset) the humankind indeed the god hearer seer

1649 min/of dbbatin wal-malikatu

Again i apologize if i have missed something.

Noon_waalqalami

@noon waalqalami

you keep saying it speaks of all species and not of every individual, so im asking you again, please answer in few basic words are you claiming some individuals among species are not signs from Allah?

finally please cease saying "kulli", min can speak of all according to context without the need of the word kulli and i showed proof of that earlier

It says of species including humans are sign i.e. assemblies not all individuals or their personalities, etc.
Moreover, there are species in the heavens and earth which humans cannot see ? universe is very large.

4229 and among signs his creation the heavens and the land and what disperse in them dual min/of dabbatin and he on assembly theirs when willed supreme

453 indeed in the heavens and the land surely signs to the believers 454 and in creation yours and what dispersed min/of dbbatin signs for folk assured being

The_Sardar

It says of species including humans are sign i.e. assemblies not all individuals or their personalities, etc.
Moreover, there are species in the heavens and earth which humans cannot see ? universe is very large.

4229 and among signs his creation the heavens and the land and what disperse in them dual min/of dabbatin and he on assembly theirs when willed supreme

453 indeed in the heavens and the land surely signs to the believers 454 and in creation yours and what dispersed min/of dbbatin signs for folk assured being

I wonder how big is the universe. Maybe i will find out in this worldly life or in The Hereafter.

Ju5

@noon waalqalami
dont stray from the topic please, this little argument about your metaphoric interpretation of dabbatin (species, etc) is secondary, answer to this

This verse is clear , it says "of malaika", so you are right, but

1649 says prostrate what is in the earth and in heavens of creatures and malaika. It clearly means that if any angel or creature lies in earth or in heavens, then it prostrates. Hence it speaks of all of them.This is pretty straightforward and i believe that you are dishonest on purpose but i could be wrong, whatever.

finally please cease saying "kulli", min can speak of all according to context without the need of the word kulli and i showed proof of that earlier

The_Sardar

@noon waalqalami
dont stray from the topic please, this little argument about your metaphoric interpretation of dabbatin (species, etc) is secondary, answer to this

Wait i got lost there, since when Noon's research dabbatin become metaphoric? I checked the root word of dabbatin and this is what it said

Dal-Ba-Ba = to go gently, crawl/creep/walk, hit, expine, flow, throw.
Whatsoever moves on earth especially beasts of burden, quadraped, beast, moving creature, insect, creature on earth, materialistic person whose endeavors are wholly directed to the acquisition of worldy riches and material comforts and who has fallen on the pleasures of this world with all his might and main.

dabbah n.f. (pl. dawab) 2164, 638, 822, 855, 116, 1156, 1649, 1661, 2218, 2445, 2782, 2960, 3110, 3414, 3528, 3545, 4229, 454

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 7, 8, 9 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=dbb

si_di

they Sound like Evil beings to me like gog and magog

alihawa

thanks for summarizing bro good logic, i think i understand what happened here

Peace All.
I need to summarise this thread for new readers and others who are wavering or still not sure. The thread needs a summary since it has gone on a bit in my opinion
Ju5 claimed 234 and 1649 contradict because of two things
1-Iblees is a Malaika but refused an order from GOD.234
2-Malaika are not arrogant, reverence GOD and obey GOD s orders.

and

Brother Noon gave him the following summary
1-Al Malaika in 1649 are a certain group, It does not say "Kullu" all of them.
2- He gave examples from Qoran to confirm this.
This is another example Qoran saysWa Ma MANAA Al- Naas AN Yuminu...Illa An Kalu Abaatha Allah Bacharan Rasoola" -What has stopped the peole from believing ...because theyb said why does GOD send a human like us as messenger.
In here even though it says "AL-NAAS" it does not mean all the people because surely few always believe.

Ju5 kept sticking to his view that all Malaika obey if Iblees disobeyed ,then there is a contradiction.
Ju5 has also said, as a summary, the following
1-He/She does not know if Malaika have got free will .
2-He/She does not care about other verses in Qoran or context.
3- He/she did not bring a single other verse that confirms clearly Iblees is a Malaika other than 234, yet there is other verses that confirm Iblees is from Jinn.

i agree with ju5 that iblees is malaika, Q 234 is enough to indicate that.

the problem lies in the phrase "wahum la yastakbirna" (and they are not arrogant) in the end of Q 1649. here bro ju5 assume that the word "wahum" (they) is referring to all malaika, thus make this verse contradict with Q 234.

bro Noon already explain that the word "min" means "some of", so the word "wahum" in Q 1649 can not be referred to all malaika, but only to some malaika. but i don't see where bro Noon explain which malaika that are referred in Q1649, if it is not all malaika ( ju5 asked about this question also)

from my understanding "wahum" in Q 1649 refers to sujud-ing malaika and all dabba, not all malaika and all dabba. it fits to bro Noon explanation about the word "min" and fit with the rest of the verse which basically says all dabba and some of malaika in heaven and earth sujud to Allah and they are not arrogant

please let me clarify my understanding.

iblees is malaika and a jinn. malaika is a role (role of controller) and jinn is a trait or characteristic (being hidden). so basically iblees is a hidden malaika (just like other malaika). it is similar to a statement ju5 is a teacher and he is smart. ju5 is a smart teacher
malaika has free will. iblees is a plain example. other case where freewill is exercise is by bad malaika is the case of harut and marut in Q 2102-103. why else they teach human about something that has no benefit ? other then supporting Iblees plan/promise to mankind? another example is when malaika questions ALLAH's decision prior to creating Adam, which we all are familiar with.

i thank bro ju5 for presenting this case, so that i can learn and expand my understanding about Quran.

if God allowed, i will look up bro ju5 original finding in

I have looked at the skeptic annotated qur'an and found most contradictions debatable/about bad translations/interpretations/blatantly false, but this, i can't refute. Anyone with explanations ?
Don't answer if don't know please, i don't want mental gymnasts and people who follow rumors and speak of what they do not know to pollute the topic. Just plain logic and knowledge in pursuit of truth, and no hate.

Heaven then earth
7927 Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
7928 He raised its height, and perfected it.
7929 And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
7930 And the land after that He spread out.
7931 He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
7932 And the mountains He fixed firmly.

Earth then heaven
419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Second,
people here say that Injil is indeed an arabic word and not greek words(good news), and that the Injil is not the gospel, and that Isa is not Jesus, but i found a post that make this position very hard to defend, which i am quoting here (by "youssef4342&quot
It would be quite farfetched to say that Isa is not Jesus and that the gospel is not the injil (what would be that injil that is mentioned several times? Why would the gospels would not be mentioned as they are the scriptures of christians ? Wikipedia

The Arabic word Injil (&#1604 as found in Islamic texts, and now used also by Muslim non-Arabs and Arab non-Muslims, is derived from the Syriac Aramaic word awongaleeyoon (&#1826 found in the Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Bible), which in turn derives from the Greek word euangelion (&#957 of the originally Greek language New Testament, where it means "good news" (from Greek " "; Old English "gdspel"

Please note also that Mary in the gospel is not called Miriam, but Mariam (the aramaic form of Miriam). She is also called Mariam in the Qur'an.

Now, if Jesus is Isa -it is quite striking than his mother Mariam has a father called Imran and a brother called Harun (Aaron), while the Miriam of the Torah is also sister to Aaron and daughter to Amram. This may be a confusion between Miriam from the Torah and Mariam from the gospels.

If anyone has the answer please share

and other findings in here

because the article was long, and because i was talking about plural of hands in the thieves and the lies/inventions around this, not about the baseless speculation(you can always speculate and invent things indefinitely), and anyway i answered to those because of you

the real question you should be wondering is why are you all dishonest when the subject is the qur'an? answer because you want to believe

i don't know if its the best website, but it sure does his job referencing the occurences of words in the qur'an

now, as i wage war against the qur'an are you going to cut my feet/hands opposed or crucify me like a good muslim? or will you disobey allah and twist his command?

since noone has correct answsers for my accusations, i will add even more

1 3953 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins
448 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills
One could say he forgives shirk once you repent. But isn't that true of all sins? then why bother saying that allah does not forgive shirk/association?

2 5822 You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred.
3115(about parents) But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in world with appropriate kindness

3 4116 Aad is destroyed in days of misfortune
5419 Aad is destroyed in a day of misfortune
697 Aad is destroyed in seven nights and eight days of misfortune

4 7120 Firaun wizards believe in musa
1080 None believed Musa save the offspring among his people

5 The qur'an is not clear, proof=the existence of all these discussion on this forum.

6 God gave the Gospel To Jesus which doesn't make sense. You can argue all day long about it, it is the most probable meaning injil=good news, the kitab word=book. Christians can find the name of Muhammad in it(qur'an says so). You say it doesn't make sense on the false premise that the qur'an is perfect and true.

7 Israel means "who wrestled with god" as jacob fought him, see the bible story. He called the place "the face of god" because he saw him. And God renamed him Israel. "Who wrestled with god". Unqur'anic to say the least, but still mentioned as Israel.

8 1649 And to God prostrate all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, from the creatures and the angels, and they are not arrogant.
1650 They fear their Lord from above them, and they do what they are commanded.

234 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
Note if you say iblis is a jinn not an angel, learn grammar. Allah gives an orders to angels and all obey save Iblis. Nothing more, nothing less.

God may very well exist regardless of religions or not.
Maybe there was a perfect qur'an. Maybe there wasn't. One thing is sure, our qur'an is not.

Last hint of this post, if you think the qur'an can not contradict itself. then it will never contradict itself. Because of you. It is all in your mind.