Question for the people with knowledge
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refutation polytheists. They sujud to many gods, you like it or not. God even tells them to stop and some don't listen...you can't deny this, its written in the qur'an, although i acknowledge your ability to deny what is written black on white in the qur'an.
Which chapter & verse? So i can verify it for myself.
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@good logic
yes of each type not "every" individual see 2218 & 2725 all/that NOT yasjud to godquoted from noon wallqalami
@Noon waalqalami
2218 did not see that the god yasjudu to him entities in the heavens/skies and entities in the land and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the vegetation (e.g. plants, trees, etc.) and the creatures and much (i.e. not all/every) mina/of l-nsi/the humankind ?
here min means of, not all. Just like in 1649.
In addition, in 1649, there is no context so that the malaika would be group; It speaks of malaika as a general statement.
1667 wamin/and of fruits the date palms and the grapevines
Let's quote the full verse
And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.There is no "kulli" every, yet you can do alcohol with all figs and grapes.
454 does not show that min can never speak of all when translated as "of"
2960 there is context in this one, and it isn't even clear it it speak not of all creatures
3545 speaks of all
4229 could be translated as of/from (even if wouldn't be good writing), "from his signs, is the creation of ..."
116 says all creatures on earth gets its provision from allah. confirms that min in 2960 (see above) speak of all creatures (with min); you just checkmated yourself, good job.
1156 and after killing your own argument you now bury it
i am curious to see how you will escape this time.
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Like Pazuzu, UQ, Layth and many others. Some I know personally, some I have exchanges with them.
This, as much as this bloke Ju5 would like to present it, is not a contest of Arabs against non Arabs, but of people who seek knowledge and understanding as against people who hide from knowledge and understanding, lest their whole mental building crashes down on them.
As the Gospels say let the dead bury their dead.
Salaam
Arabic people can fool you and even themselves. I hope you have read "The natural republic" laugh
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Arabic people can fool you and even themselves. I hope you have read "The natural republic" laugh
How do they fool us? And what does the book The Natural Republic got to do with this.
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It speaks of malaika as a general statement.
general statement
- Americans (general) are humble and obey the law (true if 3+)
- Ju5 is arrogant and disobeyed the law (doesn't contradict #1)
454 does not show that min can never speak of all when translated as "of"
4229 could be translated as of/from (even if wouldn't be good writing), "from his signs, is the creation of ..."
It says min/of dbbatin (each type/species e.g. monkeys, etc.)
Not every individual like Cheeta from Tarzan or character in Planet of the Apes.
2960 there is context in this one, and it isn't even clear it it speak not of all creatures
116 says all creatures on earth gets its provision from allah. confirms that min in 2960 (see above) speak of all creatures (with min); you just checkmated yourself, good job.
1156 and after killing your own argument you now bury it
you lack structure (sloppy) and need to pay attention to words.
dbbatin (feminine) type like community, town, city, etc., with individual members.
638 and not min/of dabbatin (feminine ) in the land and not airin/flyer (e.g. birds, etc.) flyed with wings two its except/only umamun/communities (feminine ) like you not neglect we of in the book from thing furthermore to lord theirs gathered being
16112 and strike the god similitude of qaryatan/town (feminine ) be she/it (f) safe comforting bringeth her/it (f) provision hers/its (f) abundant of min/of kulli/every place so reject she/it (f) in favors the god so made taste her/it (f) the god garment the hunger and the fear in what be they of working
2815 and enter l-madnata/the city (feminine ) on period thoughtlessness from family hers/its (f)
https//s10.postimg.org/q22tiy3rt/Ahlwardt_305_ch11v51-61.jpg
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Peace All.
I need to summarise this thread for new readers and others who are wavering or still not sure. The thread needs a summary since it has gone on a bit in my opinion
Ju5 claimed 234 and 1649 contradict because of two things
1-Iblees is a Malaika but refused an order from GOD.234
2-Malaika are not arrogant, reverence GOD and obey GOD s orders.I gave Ju5 my views
1-234 and 1649 talk about 2 different subjects.
2-Sujud to GOD is done by all the creatures/creations of GOD INCLUDING MALAIKA, It is about GOD s plan and purpose.
3-Sujud to GOD is total submission to GOD s will/laws that He set up for His creations including free will. Sujud to GOD is total and includes non arrogance, reverence and following GOD s commands . It is impossible to change GOD s plan and purpose unless the creation finds another god,more powerful to undo GOD s plan., and there is no other god.
4- 1315 and 1649 are similar context ,they are about the Sujud to GOD in this context.Brother Noon gave him the following summary
1-Al Malaika in 1649 are a certain group, It does not say "Kullu" all of them.
2- He gave examples from Qoran to confirm this.
This is another example Qoran saysWa Ma MANAA Al- Naas AN Yuminu...Illa An Kalu Abaatha Allah Bacharan Rasoola" -What has stopped the peole from believing ...because theyb said why does GOD send a human like us as messenger.
In here even though it says "AL-NAAS" it does not mean all the people because surely few always believe.Ju5 kept sticking to his view that all Malaika obey if Iblees disobeyed ,then there is a contradiction.
Ju5 has also said, as a summary, the following
1-He/She does not know if Malaika have got free will .
2-He/She does not care about other verses in Qoran or context.
3- He/she did not bring a single other verse that confirms clearly Iblees is a Malaika other than 234, yet there is other verses that confirm Iblees is from Jinn.
I am sorry for not including all the other brothers and sisters in this summary, but they more or less confirmed or followed what I summarised above. Please read also their posts. they are usefulHas Ju5 proved beyond a doubt that 234 and 1649 contradict?
No evidence Malaika have not got free will.
No evidence why it is all Malaika in 1649 according to his/her understanding
No other verses to confirm his/her understanding.
In fact there is evidence for the opposite , for either way my understanding or brother Noon s, one cannot find a contradiction.
Just because some have different views about some verses in Qoran, it does not mean Qoran has contradictions ot is wrong. Our views can differ of course if we are in different journeys and study time.
I hope this summary can help readers, new or old, follow this thread .
Of course others may want to get involved or just give their honest view. Please do.
GOD bless.
Peace -
And this thread also got bit heated but i think it's calming down a bit now.
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@good logic, about my views
2-He/She does not care about other verses in Qoran or context.
saying shadows incline is not context for malaika doing what they are commanded. It is your hypothesis. Shadows "sujud"ing to Allah doesn't erase allah's word, which says that malaika do what they are commanded. It is not that i don't care for context (this is a lie from you), it is that there is no context clearly showing malaika do not REALLY do what they are commanded.
3- He/she did not bring a single other verse that confirms clearly Iblees is a Malaika other than 234, yet there is other verses that confirm Iblees is from Jinn.
Why would i need another verse? Isn't one single divine verse from God enough? Yes others verses confirm that he is a Jinn. So what? Does it erase the 234 verse? Do you have any evidence that you can't be Jinn and malaka at the same time?
No evidence why it is all Malaika in 1649 according to his/her understanding
Because God speaks of malaika and not of a specific group among malaika. Infact in 1649 all creatures and malaika from the earth and heaven obey. The subject is "whatever in the earth and whatever in the heaven of creatures and malaika". So not only no specific group from malaika is mentioned, but the "all malaika" interpretation (the most basic one) is further backed by the words (what is in the earth and what is in the heaven).
This is another example Qoran saysWa Ma MANAA Al- Naas AN Yuminu...Illa An Kalu Abaatha Allah Bacharan Rasoola" -What has stopped the peole from believing ...because theyb said why does GOD send a human like us as messenger.
because there is actually context in this verse (1794) but you seem to only see it when it pleases you? Here s some nice context for 1649; maybe you won't see it either? "And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels , and they are not arrogant."
To think about it, you insist that allah talks about everything and everyone in his great plan, then you proceed to say it does not speak with certainty of ALL malaika. So does everyone follow his plan, or only a part ? see how you even contradict yourself.now lets make this quick
1-234 and 1649 talk about 2 different subjects.
Both speak about malaika. Period.
2-Sujud to GOD is done by all the creatures/creations of GOD INCLUDING MALAIKA, It is about GOD s plan and purpose.
Yet you ask me to provide evidence that 1649 speaks about all malaika.
3-Sujud to GOD is total submission to GOD s will/laws that He set up for His creations including free will. Sujud to GOD is total and includes non arrogance, reverence and following GOD s commands . It is impossible to change GOD s plan and purpose unless the creation finds another god,more powerful to undo GOD s plan., and there is no other god.
Yet Iblis was of the arrogant.
234 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
If iblis is not arrogant, then why does allah says he is? or do you contradict allah?
4- 1315 and 1649 are similar context ,they are about the Sujud to GOD in this context.
-"sujud to god " is not equal to "doing everything you are commanded". If you say it is the same thing, then Iblis didn't sujud to God.
1-Al Malaika in 1649 are a certain group, It does not say "Kullu" all of them.
i provided examples of qur'an verses showing min can speak of all members of a group without "kullu". You ignored them.
1-He/She does not know if Malaika have got free will .
because malaika obey in 1649 but iblis doesn't in 234, therefore how could i know since there is a contradiction?
Just because some have different views about some verses in Qoran, it does not mean Qoran has contradictions ot is wrong.
here's the better version
Just because some have different views about some verses in Qoran, it does not mean Qoran has no contradictions or is true.
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Why would i need another verse? Isn't one single divine verse from God enough? Yes others verses confirm that he is a Jinn. So what? Does it erase the 234 verse? Do you have any evidence that you can't be Jinn and malaka at the same time? Do you have evidence that the qur'an is perfect and divine?Because God speaks of malaika and not of a specific group among malaika. Infact in 1649 all creatures and malaika from the earth and heaven obey. The subject is "whatever in the earth and whatever in the heaven of creatures and malaika". So not only no specific group from malaika is mentioned, but the "all malaika" interpretation (the most basic one) is further backed by the words (what is in the earth and what is in the heaven).
Most basic one? Forgive me but what do you mean by that?
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that it is the first thing you understand when you read it.
You sadly lost me. No offense.
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I lost you? what do you mean?
I mean i did not understand your comment.
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I mean i did not understand your comment.
i meant that the first time you read 1649, you understand that malaika are obedient. Good logic probably believed this too the first time, he now claims it doesn't speak of all malaika because people showed the contradiction of iblis being a disobedient malaka in 234.
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i meant that the first time you read 1649, you understand that malaika are obedient. Good logic probably believed this too the first time, he now claims it doesn't speak of all malaika because people showed the contradiction of iblis being a disobedient malaka in 234.
Oh but there is something i wanna ask them is that why in 1850 says specifically that Iblis was of the Jinn. That makes me doubt that the contradiction is true.
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Also i have not seen a verse saying Jinn never disobey orders from Allah (SWTAY) so i'm not quite sure if he was a malaika from the beginning.
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Sorry though i missed anything though since it's been a while of this conversation.
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@Noon waalqalami
general statement
- Americans (general) are humble and obey the law (true if 3+)
- Ju5 is arrogant and disobeyed the law (doesn't contradict #1)
When i said general statement, i meant it wasn't specific about malaika (like a part of them, most of them..). It just says "The malaika". I am not a native english, i misused "general statement".
Since there is no context for malaika except "whatever in the earth and whatever in the heaven of..", Allah surely speaks of all malaika, because allah is not a guy in a bar, and doesn't make "general statements", his words are truth always. So if he says malaika do what they are commanded, then it is so.
454 does not show that min can never speak of all when translated as "of"
4229 could be translated as of/from (even if wouldn't be good writing), "from his signs, is the creation of ..."
It says min/of dbbatin (each type/species e.g. monkeys, etc.)
Not every individual like Cheeta from Tarzan or character in Planet of the Apes.
1-You didn't debunk my argument in any way
2-You backed it up by admitting it speaks of each species.
454 And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures are signs for people who are certain .
3-Are you claiming some animals are not signs from allah for the people?you lack structure (sloppy) and need to pay attention to words.
dbbatin (feminine) type like community, town, city, etc., with individual members.
1-groups are always made of individual members, you can still speak about all of them
2-malaika is masculine anyway so why do you even botherbecause of l- before malaika its "the" malaika so we must know who they are. but the verse doesn't tell us who they are, its not" the malaika i saw near the grocery store" neither "the malaika who stole my bike". Its The Malaika, There is no way it doesn't speak of all of them.
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Also i have not seen a verse saying Jinn never disobey orders from Allah (SWTAY) so i'm not quite sure if he was a malaika from the beginning.
it s written that he is a malaka in 234. why would you need a verse to show that jinn can never disobey. the solution is not saying " it is not possible to be both Jinn and malaka" because it is written nowhere in the qur'an. the solution is the qur'an contradicted itself . If you say iblis is not a malaka you contradict allah. if you say iblis is a malaka then the qur'an is not perfect.
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3-Are you claiming some animals are not signs from allah for the people?
I am reading his comment and no Noon is not saying that. (Unless i missed it.)
